In Assault without BTB contact

[Lerra]

This scenario has come up a few times and I haven't been able to find a clear answer from the rules.

One of my units is in combat with an enemy unit. After the pile in, only 1-2 models are actually in base-to-base, with the rest of the models strung out behind them.

During the next shooting phase, those 1-2 models that are in BTB are killed via either the Vindicare Assassin, an errant blast weapon, or Jaws of the World Wolf.

What happens? Is the unit still locked in close combat? Do they get their attacks if they are not BTB at the beginning of the assault phase?

The first time it happened, we agreed that we each got a 6" consolidate move at the end of the shooting phase, and then we went through the assault normally (obviously this isn't really supported by the rules). The second time it happened, we agreed that both units were still locked in CC, but neither unit got any attacks because they were not BTB. At the end of the assault phase, both sides piled in, and the assault continued as normal on the next turn.

The other proposed solution was that, because neither squad is actually in base-to-base, they are no longer locked in combat and may consolidate.

Any insight into this one?

[Nabterayl]

As I recall this was clearer in earlier editions. However, in the 5th edition world ...

I think the result is that the combat ends and neither unit gets to consolidate. Here's my analysis:

Page 35 says "Units that have one or more model in base contact with enemies are said to be 'locked in combat'." That seems to me to be the key definition - if no unit in the model is in base contact, the unit is not locked.

If the unit is not locked, it may move, shoot, and be shot normally, as that is the default state for a unit. As page 41 says, "When a unit is locked in combat it may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot," and again, "Models belonging to units locked in combat may not fire weapons in the Shooting phase ... while especially twisted and soulless commanders may wish their warriors to fire indiscriminately into the middle of close combats in the hopes of hitting the enemy, this is not permitted." But if the unit is not locked, none of those restrictions apply.

So it seems to me that if the units are separated in the manner you describe, they cease to be locked in combat, and thus the restrictions on moving and shooting are lifted and they behave as regular units. It also seems to me that there are no consolidation moves allowed:

Page 40 says that pile-in moves are made "after the combat has been resolved." The situation you describe is not after combat resolution*, so the pile-in rule seems to me not to apply. Similarly, the consolidation rule says, "At the end of a combat, if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back ...," which is not the situation you describe either.* So the consolidation rule seems to me not to apply either. Net result, the units cease to be locked in combat and simply pick up from exactly where they are.

* Okay, it is after combat resolution, but you have to read that as "immediately after combat resolution," or "immediately after the end of a combat." Otherwise a unit that won an assault on Turn 2 could make a consolidate move on Turn 6, on the pretense that it was doing so "after combat resolution."

[DarkLink]

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are said to be 'locked in combat' "



In order for a unit to attack another in assault, they must have engaged models, and in order to be engaged you must be locked in combat. Since you aren't locked in combat, no one gets to attack.

The question is, are the units disengaged? It isn't really clear, as the BRB is actually very imprecise in its language.

There are two possible answers:

1. The units are no longer in combat, and are free to do whatever. In this case, one of the units will be able to re-assault and start the combat again, if they wanted.

2. The units are still in combat. They cannot attack, however, and just go straight to the pile-in move at the end of the assault phase.

[Nabterayl]

The question is, are the units disengaged? It isn't really clear, as the BRB is actually very imprecise in its language.

There are two possible answers:
I'm not sure that's true. If we know that they aren't in base contact, on what basis would we call them locked? And if they aren't locked (which I think it's pretty clear they aren't), then how can they be engaged since, as you say, you must be locked to be engaged? And if they aren't engaged, in what sense are they not disengaged?

[Denzark]

Hang on a minute, I may have this wrong. But - I thought hth, you had a pile in after the charge, and then at the end of the round of combat eveyrone shuffles up.

So, this being the case, you have almost 2 de facto pile ins - so, whilst I can envisage a scenario where in the very first (player) round of combat, only one or 2 are btb, but, after this, any survivors if one group didn't break are put together for the second palyer round, next game turn.

So basically 6" pile in, fight, then further pile in at end - both squads should be highly intermingled and prevented from disenaging by means of casualty removal - for example if taking the end minis out from a conga line so that there are no enemy btb?

[Nabterayl]

You've got it right, Denzark. But it could still happen that the units are connected only by one or two models. I imagine typically this would require strung-out squads, massive casualties, very confined terrain, clever casualty removal, or some combination of the four, but it could happen.

[Tynskel]

I am confused here...

1)
After Pile In--- meaning you have already fought combat-- only one or two models made into B2B?

That makes no sense--- Both Sides make Pile in moves.

That's 6" a piece. Now, I don't have the 'big book' in front of me, but I thought it says you must move to engage models that have not been engaged, and that this is the one time in the game that intervening junk does not matter, so there is no worry to 'path of model'. This would mean that after moving a maximum distance of 12" that only 2 models made it into B2B? That's really weird--- begs the question---- how did BOTH squads get so spread out AND how come casualties prevented them from engaging?

That just doesn't make sense to me. That's a HUGE closing distance.


2) You were 'locked in combat' at the end of the Assault phase--- which is why you were piled in, right? Which would mean that you never left combat.

If you are 'locked in combat' you are denied moving, shooting, and Assaulting. For all intents and purposes--- you are still locked in combat.

Beyond this, I cannot remember the specific details.... I remember that you direct your attacks to the unit(s) that you are engaged with--- but that's based upon a model in your unit in B2B with another.



How did you manage to do this not only once, but twice?



Realistically, I would just roll off and go from there. The rulebook just doesn't deal with this scenario. Both sides lost two phases of the game due to their putzin' around on the battlefield.

[Nabterayl]

I am confused here...

1)
After Pile In--- meaning you have already fought combat-- only one or two models made into B2B?

That makes no sense--- Both Sides make Pile in moves.

That's 6" a piece. Now, I don't have the 'big book' in front of me, but I thought it says you must move to engage models that have not been engaged, and that this is the one time in the game that intervening junk does not matter, so there is no worry to 'path of model'. This would mean that after moving a maximum distance of 12" that only 2 models made it into B2B? That's really weird--- begs the question---- how did BOTH squads get so spread out AND how come casualties prevented them from engaging?
It can happen. We can spin out hypos if you want but even page 40 says that the double pile-in can be insufficient to get back into base contact; if that's true, then the double pile-in could be sufficient to get only one or two models into contact.

[Tynskel]

It can happen---- however, your unit then was 'locked in combat' at the beginning of the next game turn.


For all intents and purposes you are 'locked'.

This does not solve the conundrum--- There is no rules basis to solve this problem---- this is pretty much a roll off scenario, or avoid this situation altogether when moving your units on the board.


The simplest solution: You are locked in combat-- however you cannot fight (because no one was in B2B)-- make a pile in move.

I don't like that solution--- I would prefer to discuss this with my opponent and make a roll off decision.

[Nabterayl]

It can happen---- however, your unit then was 'locked in combat' at the beginning of the next game turn.


For all intents and purposes you are 'locked'.
I'm really not sure I agree with this. I'm not sure why we need to check for lock only at the start of the turn. If you check for lock at the start of every phase the answer falls out of the rules pretty neatly, doesn't it?

[DarkLink]

I'm not sure that's true. If we know that they aren't in base contact, on what basis would we call them locked? And if they aren't locked (which I think it's pretty clear they aren't), then how can they be engaged since, as you say, you must be locked to be engaged? And if they aren't engaged, in what sense are they not disengaged?

Well, I think that's the correct answer, that they disengage and aren't in combat anymore, as they aren't locking in combat.



But, yeah, I'm interested to know how this issue came up multiple time.

[Tynskel]

I'm really not sure I agree with this. I'm not sure why we need to check for lock only at the start of the turn. If you check for lock at the start of every phase the answer falls out of the rules pretty neatly, doesn't it?

you could do that--- Oh, and I now have my book in front of me.

The only thing that I can point to is this: The rules are set-up in a step-wise fashion---
pick a unit, move the unit.
Pick a unit, shoot the unit.
Pick a unit, assault the unit.

So, let's say you we fall into this scenario. You pick a unit-- it is locked in combat, it cannot move. Shooting Phase: Now, you use the 'vindicare' to shoot the 1 guy in B2B. He dies. Now you pick the unit and it can now shoot. No longer locked. However, this does not work the other way around--- if you tried to fire the unit first, found out it was locked, then use the Vindicare-- you couldn't go back-- you had already 'picked the unit'.


Conclusion, if you follow the step-wise format, and when you come to the unit and it is no longer 'locked' then you can do what you are trying to do.

[Nabterayl]

you could do that--- Oh, and I now have my book in front of me.

The only thing that I can point to is this: The rules are set-up in a step-wise fashion---
pick a unit, move the unit.
Pick a unit, shoot the unit.
Pick a unit, assault the unit.

So, let's say you we fall into this scenario. You pick a unit-- it is locked in combat, it cannot move. Shooting Phase: Now, you use the 'vindicare' to shoot the 1 guy in B2B. He dies. Now you pick the unit and it can now shoot. No longer locked. However, this does not work the other way around--- if you tried to fire the unit first, found out it was locked, then use the Vindicare-- you couldn't go back-- you had already 'picked the unit'.


Conclusion, if you follow the step-wise format, and when you come to the unit and it is no longer 'locked' then you can do what you are trying to do.
That is precisely the view I take.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, and I think it's pretty clearly supported by the quote Nab and I both posted. You check to see if the models are locked, and if they are then you check to see who's engaged and thus who can attack. In this case, they're clearly not locked, and so it sounds like the combat ends.

[Lerra]

But, yeah, I'm interested to know how this issue came up multiple times.

It actually came up twice in one night. In one game, the results of the rules debate decided the outcome of the game because the combat took place about 5" away from an unclaimed objective.

In the first game, one of my daemonhost models was stuck in combat. The next turn, he rolled for his random psychic power, and got the power that creates a S3 AP2 large blast template centered over the daemonhost (this power works even while the model is engaged in CC). After some lucky rolls, I killed most of the opposing squad, and my opponent chose to remove all the models in BTB with the daemonhost in order to save his special weapons that were in the second ring.

In the second game, I was facing a very shooty space marine list with lots of heavy bolters and anti-infantry guns. I had 3 rhinos, each full of 10 marines, trying to destroy a nearby Land Raider. Each squad is equipped with a meltagun and a combi-melta, so I drove the rhinos right up to 1" away from the Land Raider and parked the rhinos perpendicular to the LRC, leaving about 2.5" between the rhinos (it resembled the shape of the letter E). All three squads disembarked from their rhinos with the meltas in range of the LRC. This way, all the marines are out of LoS from my opponent's anti-infantry shooting because they are hiding behind the rhinos, and all three squads are in assault range if I am able to explode the LRC.

I managed to immobilize the LRC. The next turn, 5 terminators combi-assaulted the whole mess of marines. One terminator assaulted a rhino, one more terminator assaulted Squad #1, one terminator assaulted a different rhino, one terminator assaulted Squad #2, and one terminator assaulted squad #3. After pile-in, I couldn't get more than 2 marines in BTB because I was trapped between the rhinos and the LRC, and terminator bases are pretty large, so my opponent wasn't able to get a second terminator in BTB.

Also, my opponent had a Vindicare Assassin and two Rune Priests with Jaws of the World Wolf. Between the two of us, we had a lot of shooting that could remove models locked in combat (3 Daemonhosts, 1 Vindicare Assassin, and 3 Rune Priests all with Jaws). I wouldn't be surprised to see this particular rules dilemma pop up fairly often, especially with if the daemonhosts.