A not-so-great beginning to 40k

[klinesmith]

At work I had a few friends who were into the 40k game that enticed me with their stories of awesome tabletop battles and sweet army fluff. I heard all about space marines, orks, necrons, sisters. I heard about Horus Heresy and the way it was the start of the chaos marines rise.

I enjoyed hearing about tactical discussion of Eldar vs Tau and what the little nuances of each codex meant. I enjoyed discussing rules and what they meant and how to get into the game itself.

In short I was pumped to play.

My first army (only army) was/is orks. Dakka dakka dakka. I love the fluff, I love the hilarity and fun of the army itself. I love being able to have diverse and crazy units. I primarily love creating my own unique weapons and vehicles based upon wild concepts that involve crazy ork thinking. I played a few games with these friends and it was fun over a few beers.

So I take my army with my far, far more experienced friends down to a local game shop. While those two set up to play each other on an awesome board I was just going to watch. I was approached by a man in his mid 40s to play a game. I said sure but pre-warned him I was extremely fresh into the game.

He unpacks his army of space wolves. The army is fully painted, frankly I didn't think it was anything to write home about, and I start to unpack mine. I have painted as much as I can with the money and time I can allocate to 40k between a full time job and a heavy, heavy school schedule. He took one look at my relatively unpainted army and from there is spiraled downward.

He and another guy he apparently knew chastised me heavily for being unpainted. I mean I couldn't believe what was going on. I had no idea that it was a requirement, only an extension of the game (and admittedly painting is the primary reason I wanted to play). These two older gits were as obnoxious as I've ever met. I was told that if I intend to play this game I had better come with a painted army and that he was insulted that I came down without one. I literally couldn't believe my ears. I explained I had a lack of time and was doing what I could when i could and was told quite literally:

"You're in the wrong game then."

Needless to say I left and have never gone back.

I know of these forums from my buddies and as I'm on this site I'm seeing all these posts about painted armies and why they matter. I'll be honest, after that run in I don't know if I'll continue this beyond our little circle. That's a massive disappointment because I was looking forward to expanding my game. I just don't get it. This was supposed to be a fun way to pass time and all aspects of it are for leisure but from the looks of it it should be treated as a second job.

End rant I suppose. I guess I was curious about your takes on a new player and his inception into this game following this mentality that says "YOU MUST PLAY THIS WAY."

How does this help develop the game at all?

[Dark_Templar]

Honestly, they sound like complete wankers who you should have told where to go. Unfortunately, they are a large part of the hobby, as forums such as this will display.

This forum is better than something like Warsewer, but in general, there are a lot of people in this hobby that are a waste of oxygen.
This is the reason I no longer play, I am in the hobby for the fluff ans modelling aspects, nothing more.

Sorry to paint such a bleak picture.

DT.

[SotonShades]

I pretty much agree with you fully. Although I do like having fully painted armies (not that any of mine are fully painted... too many projects to work on at any time, and adding more all the time!)

I don't like the arrogant attitude a lot of Vets take, assuming the way they play is right. This extends to everything from painted armies to their interpretation of the rules. They seem to have forgotton how long it can take to get in to the hobby... Sure, when you are a kid, everyone expects you to have an unpainted/over painted mess of a few models that barely make a legal unit or two. When you are a grown up, you are supposed to be able to produce a fully painted army at the drop of a hat, having never picked up a paintbrush in anger before? It's mad!

I always try to give new players a break, especially if I'm playing in store. I'll make tactical mistakes, and point them out as if I hadn't realised to give them a bit more of a chance (and regularly make tactical mistakes without realising...). If they don't have a fully painted army, no worries. Especially true if they haven't been playing long. All the better to make a new friend, get them into the hobby and get them up to speed as soon as possible so they actually pose a challange.

What I do not like is that guy who habitually turns up with the same army with a couple of units painted, maybe only a coupld of models, and half the army left as bare plastic, with all the special weapons missing. I'm not saying WYSIWYG all the time and we have all started getting models out at a game only to find the Marine with the Plasma Gun has lost both his arms and we've turned up without any glues. It's those guys who seem to change what special weapon the squad has each turn because they haven't marked it properly. Best way to mark it is to actually have a completed model in my opinion, but these guys dont seem to get that.

"Oh but I've left the gun off so I can fine tune this list and put it on when I've decided."
So why have you been playing with the same list for the last 6 months and not completed it? I think it's as tuned as it's going to be.

It is these people who we see and get annoyed with. Unfortunately it means a lot of us see an unpainted army and assume that this player is going to be one of those palyers. I always try to have a chat with people before I play them in store. I try to find out how long they have been in the hobby, some of their favourite models they've built/painted, what kind of game they are looking for. It takes a few minutes longer, and on a few occasions I've gotten so deep into conversation we've ended up forgetting to play the game. Still have a good time though and we are all the more prepared for the next time we meet up.

So I sympathise with you klinesmith. I hope you don't give up on your hobby and do make it back to that store. Just maybe avoid those people who snubbed you last time, those guys I've mentioned in my post and try not to become one of them. If all else fails, I'll give you a game :)

[Sparda]

Just refuse to play people like that and tell them to shove their foot up their ***. Theres sadly a ton of people like that but theres also some really cool people out there to, just ignore people like that and try to play some non-****bags.

[eldargal]

I'm the first to say that you should aim to have a fully painted army on the table, but how long that takes depends on a whole lot of factory. To expect a new player to have a fully painted army right away is absurd.

[Aldramelech]

At my club we do not play with unpainted figures, full stop, period. Now that does not mean we are rude to new people or discourage new members. What would happen if a person turned up without a painted army? Well we play lots of multi player games and they would be more then welcome to join in. If they wanted to play a specific game then, if possible, someone would lend them an army. Our club nights are planned in advanced the week before, some guys will arrange one on one games, others will arrange a couple of multi player games and at least one member will agree to arrange the "open" game. This is for any members who are not present to arrange which game to play or if new people turn up. (This is a Wargames Club, not a GW Club, so the games will be a mix of historical, board games and GW games) We do not have "Pick up" games.

Now this does not suit everybody and if this isn't your thing there are 4 other clubs in the area to choose from. There is the club that meets at GW and they do what you guys on here are more familiar with, pick up games etc. This is good for the younger kids as we also cant have under 18s as we meet in a pub. There are two clubs that meet in independent shops, one of which does not sell GW and will therefore not allow GW games to be played and there is a group that meets at a social club that do mainly GW but do other Sci-Fi/Fantasy things, they tend to pre arrange games, but do have pick up games.

Now for you to go to a club at a shop where pick up games are the norm and experience what you did is unacceptable.
In that type of club it should be expected that people such as yourself will arrive to try out the game and they should be offering encouragement.

[Mauglum.]

HI all.
Why does the OP story remind me of the old saying...'never take an idiot with you , you can ALWAYS find one when you get there!'

MOST gamers are happy to just play the games , the asthetics are a nice bonus , but NOT the prime concern.

A good game doesnt need a set level of asthetic exellence to be enjoyed.:eek:

Unfortunatley as 40k rules are not that great in comparision to other games ,so there is far more emphasis on the asthetics.
As Jervis said, '...the games are just the icing on the cake...'.

So mal adjusted folk feel the need to berrate those who dont have fully painted armies.
(Without the asthetics to distract from the rules, the games are not as enjoyable for some.;))

Remember its YOUR hobby , so paint and play at YOUR own speed and spend time on the parts of the table top gaming hobby YOU enjoy the most.

TTFN

[energongoodie]

I feel bad for you buddy. It is a real shame those muppets put you off.
Don't give up on it though.

[rogue.trader.voril]

@klinesmith: I have to agree with the earlier posts. There are jerks out there, but there are some really good friendly players out there. I feel very lucky to have run into the group I did, because they are awesome players and very veteran. There is no petty crap to deal with but ample amounts of help. I took 15 years off playing, so starting back up is really starting all over from scratch... except I'm already familiar with the fluff and have some painting ability. We have vets who can paint excellently and some who couldn't paint their way out of a paper bag. Some of our members even prefer to buy painted ones on ebay just because it's easier and better than they can do. One uses spray cans exclusively... no brushes... and it looks just like you might think it would. I think that help ground them and remind them that it is tactics not paint that proves a player.

Another way I lucked out is that the friendly players are the majority here and are behind the counters, too. So that kind of behavior usually ends up with some kind of social consequence. For example: any whining and you will have to wear the "Pacifier of Shame".

I can stand up for myself, and have, but I leave a challenge to those vets who don't condone that type of behavior: More than questionable rules or lack of Codex, with out new players this game stagnates quickly. Nurture not ridicule! Stand up for a noob.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do."
-Benjamin Franklin

[synack]

Next time tell him that they're your models. If you want to leave them unpainted, or shove them up your arse and cover them with ****, then thats totally your prerogative. It's your money, your time and your models. If he's got such an issue with it, tell him he can paint them for you.

Don't let one or two guys spoil you game. Next time something like that happens, pack your models away and choose opponents that are a little more courteous.

[BuFFo]

I understand you are new to the hobby, and new to this forum, so you will not know either who we, on this forum, are, nor the wide range of asshats that play this game like most of us here already know about.

So, my advice may come a bit too harsh, but, grow a pair of nuts dude.

You ran into two neck beards whose lack of sex, due to their large size, makes their crappy armies the focus of their libido and pathetic lives. Don't be a puss and let the actions of two strangers deter you from branching out.

Get out there, meet new people, and have fun!

You are just too new, green, and at that new store you were also too, um, naive. You automatically assume that strangers you meet automatically have more pull, more strength, more clout, in this hobby than you do. This is not true! You just need to man up your tiny nuts a bit and tell those neck beards to get on your lap, and get over your paint job.

Far too often in this hobby I witness bullies, but even more so, I witness people who allow more veteran players to step all over them. Just like any bully you meet in High School, you never turn the other cheek. You get in his neck beard face and tell him, "If you don't like my paint job, then get your crappy wolves off the table you fat neck beard."

Painting is NOT a requirement to play. I have armies from over 20 years ago, still unpainted, because even though I am a video game illustrator, I am not a painter. I prefer to play the game, not paint the figures.

Please, do not judge ALL hobbyists in 40k based on those two jerkwads.

[Warptiger]

Those guys were morons. He approached you out of the blue for a pick-up game, and you told him you were brand new to the game. He shouldn't have said word one past that... except maybe a joke about not realizing hoooowww new you were to the hobby.

But I have to agree with buffo, grow a pair... don't let two morons run you out of that store.

Ever stop to think those 2 guys might be the most unpopular players at that store... that's probably why they're approaching completely new guys (you) out the blue for a pick-up game: no one else there will play them.

Those guys could be a complete minority there, and the rest of the story could be full of friendly people. Going to a hobby store is a good way to meet new players, see new modeling ideas, and possibly find someone who can teach how to paint better & faster. When I was first starting out, I learned much about painting from watching a guy paint wood elves at our local store. He could paint an entire figure in about 4 minutes. He painted each section separately (arm, shirt, bow, etc), from the white basecoat to final highlights before he moved on to another area. He never got paint on a finished area by accident. It was scary to watch. I learned about 50% of my painting skills just from watching this dude paint.

[fuzzbuket]

heay as a attende of a secondry school i know how much howmework people get and juggling time between mates, football and school theres little time for 40k :( however my advice is buy paint buy, this keeps motovation rather than

BUY BUY BUY

paint....

bored

unpainted

BUY BUY BUY

^ not good :P

oh and those guys sound like they enjoy poking themselves with plastic :P


keep up and enjoy the fun hobby :D

[DarkLink]

He and another guy he apparently knew chastised me heavily for being unpainted. I mean I couldn't believe what was going on. I had no idea that it was a requirement, only an extension of the game (and admittedly painting is the primary reason I wanted to play). These two older gits were as obnoxious as I've ever met. I was told that if I intend to play this game I had better come with a painted army and that he was insulted that I came down without one. I literally couldn't believe my ears. I explained I had a lack of time and was doing what I could when i could and was told quite literally:


There are, unfortunately, a lot of #$%^& who can't comprehend the fact that either a) some people don't actually enjoy painting, or b) don't have time or means to paint (especially when you've just started a new army).

There are even more people who aren't #$%^&&^%$s, but still can't seem to understand that just because they love painting, and have set aside plenty of time for it, that doesn't mean that everyone else does the same thing. In fact, some are obsessive over the idea that to play 40k you must paint, regardless of any and all circumstances or opinions.

Edit:
Oh, and kinda what Buffo said. If someone tries to pull this on you, don't put up with them. Find someone worth playing. And if they keep bugging you and interfering with you, even though you leave them alone... impress upon them the importance of respecting other people. And by impress, I mean explain to them by whatever means are appropriate.

[Nabterayl]

Painting is NOT a requirement to play. I have armies from over 20 years ago, still unpainted, because even though I am a video game illustrator, I am not a painter. I prefer to play the game, not paint the figures.
Very true. This is one of those "rules" that has gotten embedded in 40K lore that is very clearly not a rule. Some of these "rules," like WYSIWYG, are exaggerations of what the rulebook actually says. Others, like "you have to have a painted army to play" are total fabrications. The rulebook says nothing at all about painting.

And even if it did ... so what? They're your models! If the rulebook did say only painted miniatures could be used, and my opponent and I decided to ignore that rule, what would happen? I'll tell you what - we'd have a good time playing the game.

I know I'm just repeating what others have said, but truly, 40K isn't just one thing. Some people like the "game" aspect of it most. Others like the "hobby" aspect. Heck, some people don't particularly like either, and just like the background most! For those people, collecting the models and playing the game is just a way to experience the fluff they like so much, and more power to them. Most people's enjoyment is their own personal blend of all three. All those types of players should be able to have a good time on the tabletop - if I can distill the "what jerks" reaction I'm seeing in this thread to one thought, I'd say it's this: only a jackass makes his enjoyment of the game dependent upon how you enjoy the game.

[Lerra]

I'l add my opinion to the pile - those guys were rude to refuse to play you, but you're probably better off avoiding them anyway. If they get their panties in a twist over painting, they're likely to be unfun opponents for other reasons anyway.

I enjoy painting, but I play with a lot of unpainted models. Why? Because I'm tired of painting space marines, and I'd rather spend my free time on other projects, like my small set of daemon minis or DnD minis. Sometimes people will give me crap for painting DnD minis while my space marines remain unpainted, but I politely tell them to go jump in a lake. The whole point of hobby time is to enjoy yourself, so do whatever is fun and ignore the haters.

[Nabterayl]

Yeah. I also enjoy painting, but most of my models are unpainted, because I paint when it will afford me pleasure. I work anywhere from 60 to 120 hours a week, and as 40K is not my only hobby, I can go for months without picking up a paintbrush. Doesn't stop me from enjoying it when I do, or enjoying the game in the meantime.

[DarkLink]

Yeah. I also enjoy painting, but most of my models are unpainted, because I paint when it will afford me pleasure. I work anywhere from 60 to 120 hours a week, and as 40K is not my only hobby, I can go for months without picking up a paintbrush. Doesn't stop me from enjoying it when I do, or enjoying the game in the meantime.

Right. Anyone who wants to go on a self-righteous tirade about how "painting is part of the hobby" and "you should make time to paint" and stuff like that can go on the nice convenient Ignore list in the user profile.

Believe it or no, no one gets to dictate how other people should spend their time, nor may they attempt to force their own interests on others.

[Aldramelech]

Very true. This is one of those "rules" that has gotten embedded in 40K lore that is very clearly not a rule. Some of these "rules," like WYSIWYG, are exaggerations of what the rulebook actually says. Others, like "you have to have a painted army to play" are total fabrications. The rulebook says nothing at all about painting.

And even if it did ... so what? They're your models! If the rulebook did say only painted miniatures could be used, and my opponent and I decided to ignore that rule, what would happen? I'll tell you what - we'd have a good time playing the game.

I know I'm just repeating what others have said, but truly, 40K isn't just one thing. Some people like the "game" aspect of it most. Others like the "hobby" aspect. Heck, some people don't particularly like either, and just like the background most! For those people, collecting the models and playing the game is just a way to experience the fluff they like so much, and more power to them. Most people's enjoyment is their own personal blend of all three. All those types of players should be able to have a good time on the tabletop - if I can distill the "what jerks" reaction I'm seeing in this thread to one thought, I'd say it's this: only a jackass makes his enjoyment of the game dependent upon how you enjoy the game.

Actually it does. Page 3, paragraph 4.

But thats not the point, no one has the right to be rude to anyone over a game of toy soldiers.

I have to say that some of the advice that is being banded about here could very likely get you put in jail, and try explaining that one to the Judge.

Smile, shake your head, walk away.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I've actually been doing this for I guess about 7 years. I have never had a fully painted army. I've played in a few tournaments, won one but that was with someone elses painted army. If it is a for fun game it shouldn't matter. I have only now seriously started painting an army. Just play with your friends and then when you have a painted army show up and beat his army down.

[Nabterayl]

Actually it does. Page 3, paragraph 4.
Uh, I don't mean to sound dense, but can you quote that? My page 3 paragraph 4 talks about units. I agree with you, I just don't want to sound stupid if I bring this up again :p

[Cossack]

He and another guy he apparently knew chastised me heavily for being unpainted. I mean I couldn't believe what was going on. I had no idea that it was a requirement, only an extension of the game (and admittedly painting is the primary reason I wanted to play). These two older gits were as obnoxious as I've ever met. I was told that if I intend to play this game I had better come with a painted army and that he was insulted that I came down without one. I literally couldn't believe my ears. I explained I had a lack of time and was doing what I could when i could and was told quite literally:

"You're in the wrong game then."

Needless to say I left and have never gone back.


Yes, this is a hobby intended to be played with PAINTED miniatures. It's always been that way.

For some strange reason when the competitive types get involved, they care more about winning - as if that matters.

If you look at the history of the hobby, it was grown men with toy soldiers who thought "Why not fight battles with them?" so they made rules. H.G.Wells was the pioneer of this and wrote the first ruleset - Little Wars.

What happened to you was terribly unfortunate. First, you weren't told by your friends to paint your stuff. They should have looked out for you. Second was the attitude of your opponent. I'm sure he was insulted by what he saw...you aren't the only person with a busy schedule. I'm sure he has a job, maybe school too or a wife and kids. Yet he some how found time to paint.

Normally this situation occurs with somebody who's been in the hobby a long time and just hasn't painted their army. There is no excuse for it. They give all sorts of reasons, but if they've been playing for years then what's their problem? In your case, as a first time player, it would be better to offer you a loaner army. That is how I got into wargaming - a friend loaned me his army until I could complete mine.

That's not a hard concept.

And when you complete the first 500 points or so...start playing with it. Not every game has to be 2500 points.

Anyway, everyone should remember that in a social hobby like this there are certain expectations. One that I have is that my opponent - even if I've never met him - respects me enough to actually apply paint to his figures like I did to mine. For some reason that concept is terribly insulting to the 'unpainted is okay' crowd...they feel it's insulting and poor behavior on my part, yet don't understand how I can feel the exact same way about them!

What is the minimum standard? Do the models need to be glued together? I've seen players furiously gluing figures before a game. Why? If they don't have to be painted, why do they have to be glued together? (especially when they are PROXIES....). What about just putting GW bases down with numbers written on them? And if that's okay, why not just use pennies?

This game is about painted figures. If a person really and truly doesn't want to paint, there are plenty of other social games out there that don't require painting! Card games and such, for example. I suggest trying them....no offense intended.

Another angle is the concept that banning unpainted figures from the hobby shop would somehow reduce the number of players. I've been in this hobby since the 70's and been involved at many levels....I'll testify that the BEST way to recruit new players is for them to see games with painted figures. It is the painted figures that attract new blood to the hobby...not the rules. 40K is a terrible set of competitive rules anyway. They are only good for casual games.

Well that's my speach. I'm sure to get hate mail...but it won't be the first. The bottom line is this: The hobby has always been intended to be with painted figures. Nobody gets to change that just because they don't have time to paint. If this is you, please raise your own personal standard and just paint your stuff. And if you only game with figures you paint and only buy one unit at a time and paint it...then you're find the GW prices don't hurt as much.

[Leez]

My army is painted citadel sprue grey in accordance with the lore. The grim dark future is both grim and dark.

[Nabterayl]

Anyway, everyone should remember that in a social hobby like this there are certain expectations. One that I have is that my opponent - even if I've never met him - respects me enough to actually apply paint to his figures like I did to mine. For some reason that concept is terribly insulting to the 'unpainted is okay' crowd...they feel it's insulting and poor behavior on my part, yet don't understand how I can feel the exact same way about them!

The bottom line is this: The hobby has always been intended to be with painted figures. Nobody gets to change that just because they don't have time to paint. If this is you, please raise your own personal standard and just paint your stuff. And if you only game with figures you paint and only buy one unit at a time and paint it...then you're find the GW prices don't hurt as much.
There are certain expectations, and I agree with you that the core of the problem here is that the other fellow was insulted rather than acting with grace. He didn't have to take it as a personal insult that a first-time player didn't show up with a painted force. He just had to say, "I'm sorry, I find that the game isn't fun for me if both sides are not painted, so I'd rather not play you."

As you say, it's a social hobby ... and like any social activity, courtesy is the lubrication that makes it work. That's doubly true with strangers, for all the normal reasons - namely, that strangers don't necessarily have the same expectations. In my gaming group it simply isn't an expectation that the game is played with painted figures. If somebody like you showed up and found over a dozen people playing with not-fully-painted armies, surely you'd simply decline to play us and leave, rather than lecturing us about how we aren't really playing 40K, or aren't "true hobbyists," or had offered you personal insult by not having the same expectations as you :p And hopefully we'd all have the grace not to be offended by the fact that you didn't want to play us - I certainly wouldn't want somebody to play me who wasn't having fun, and if you tell me you don't have fun because my army isn't fully painted, who am I to argue? But all that can be settled like gentlemen. No insults needed.

[Melissia]

I'm not as nice as Nabterayl, nor as well spoken. So Here's my response:
Anyway, everyone should remember that in a social hobby like this there are certain expectations.And one of them is that you don't be an arrogant ***hole.

[Squirrel_Fish]

My condolences to you being on the receiving end of some bad attitudes.

That aside, I agree with quite a few of the previous posters. You are by no means obligated to dump the same amount of hours that you spend working into painting, nor are you expected to have it all done by the next time you show up to the club. Out of like 2800 points worth of Space Marines that I've been building over a year now, I have maybe 400 points worth fully painted. Is it because I don't care about the hobby? No. It's because I want this to stay my hobby and not become my job (ironic, considering I just took up a painting commission for a friend....). I'm taking 19 credits a semester and work two part time jobs during the fall up to the spring. Am I bending over backwards during the summer to get this done? No. I'm enjoying what free time I have actually playing the game rather than worrying about drybrushing or proper highlighting.

Take your time. Try and enjoy it.

[Just_Me]

First of all let me say that I'm really sorry that you had such a poor "first" experience, frankly if these players really were as "experienced" as you say, I'm a bit appalled that they would treat a new play like that.

Personally, as I have said on several occasions when the topic has been discussed, I fall into the "always painted, all the time" school of thought. All of my armies are painted to the best of my abilities (which are frankly nothing to write home about), and nothing hits the tabletop, or even my shelves until it is finished. For me this should be no surprise, as it is the background, collecting, and painting/converting that are my interest to the hobby, rather than competitive gaming, though when I do play I like to another painted army across the table from me, it adds to my enjoyment of the game just as I hope my own efforts add to my opponent's. Having said all this however,

I fully recognize that these opinions are my own, I hold myself to them, and it is my to share them if I so choose, but under no circumstances would I presume to hold others to my own artificial benchmark. This hobby is designed to be fun for all who are involved, and not everyone has fun in the same way, and I think it is very wrong for anyone to impose their own set of values on anyone else's experience of the hobby, they are your plastic soldiers, you paid for them and you may do with them as you please whether I agree with you or not.

On an interesting side note, fully painted (or even, gasp! fully assembled) armies are the exception rather than the rule where I go for my infrequent games, so my armies tend to attract some attention, and people have occasionally openly wondered just about the opposite of what you experienced, asking me how I have the time or drive to paint them, and looking at me askance when I tell them that I make sure everything is fully painted.

In short, I hope you won't let this single experience spoil everything for you, not every place or every gamer is the same, give it another chance, maybe look to your friends who seem to game there regularly to point you in the direction of opponents who will by good sports, and steer you clear of the elitist jackasses like those you met.

[Melissia]

Most of my experience have people expect it to be assembled, but it doesn't have to be painted-- after all, everyone has a different painting schedule. But it has to be assembled to be WYSIWYG. Most people will give you tips on assembly and conversion though, both online and off.

[DarkLink]

Yes, this is a hobby intended to be played with PAINTED miniatures. It's always been that way.

For some strange reason when the competitive types get involved, they care more about winning - as if that matters.


And when you start thinking your opinion of how the game should be played matters more than anything else, including how much fun you and your opponent are having, you start wandering into dangerous territory.

I'm sure your a fantastic person in real life, but understand that you do not have any right to dictate why I play 40k, nor do you have any right to declare that I'm "not doing it right".







So Here's my response:And one of them is that you don't be an arrogant...

QFT

[razcalking]

With all that being said, his opponent has every right to refuse a game if he doesn't want to spend his time playing against an unpainted army.

He just shouldn't be a jerk while doing so.

[DarkLink]

With all that being said, his opponent has every right to refuse a game if he doesn't want to spend his time playing against an unpainted army.

He just shouldn't be a jerk while doing so.

Right. You and you alone have the right to decide who, what and why you play.

If you decide you don't want to play someone who doesn't have a painted army, you have that right. You just don't get to strut around sticking your chest out and start pestering everyone who doesn't perfectly conform to your idea of what the hobby is.

[Bedroom General]

Klinesmith, this was inexcusable.

There are people who are 40 + like myself who have fully painted armies, and when I play against my mates I'll try very hard to ensure that my stuff is painted to my satisfaction. Although I often remind one of my friends of when my black base painted spinegaunts took down a beautifully painted Tigurius. We are able to suspend disbelief if there is metal or plastic on the table. The game is a GAME!

I run an after school games club for my students (I'm an Art teacher, so I guess if anyone has a right to be edgy about painting its yours truly!) and one thing it has taught me is that the first rule is true..have fun! My motley crew have models in all sorts of stages, but you know, they're kids and they have reinvigorated my love of the fun and dice rolling and (admits with a blush) roleplaying of the lil' plastic dudes. I like throwing my army at half made up and proxied stuff, 'cos if it means the other player has fun then guess what SO DO I!

I am truly sorry that this happened to you, especially in the GW store, I cannot believe that the staff didn't jump all over the bullying dastards, that was an example of lost revenue and bad word of mouth that would not be accepted in most business models. Your mates should have had your back too, especially if they play there regularly. Anyhow thats really none of my business. What I'm trying to say is don't give up, have a go at painting if you can, even a base coat sprayed on will make the Ladz start lookin' more propa, then just green 'em a bit, yell Waaagh and roll dice. Your problem, in a nutshell, is you met what we in Australia call a "wanker"! All us "Ahem" mature aged gamers aren't the same. Play the game for fun, I don't think your intended opponent knows what fun is anymore. My nutso students with their rabid enthusiasm for the fun aspects of the game have moved me away from being a sad git with netlisted super spammerific powa forces to a happy player who laughs when Marneus pulls Kharn's head off again!! or when my chaos dred shoots my plagueys in the back.

People who think that this game is serious might, just maybe, not be getting enough out of the other areas of their lives.

Sorry about the rambling post. Boils down to "Don't let the dastards grind you down".
Play you anytime..Love to massacre the Greenies ;)

[Valkerie]

At work I had a few friends who were into the 40k game that enticed me with their stories of awesome tabletop battles and sweet army fluff. I heard all about space marines, orks, necrons, sisters. I heard about Horus Heresy and the way it was the start of the chaos marines rise.

I enjoyed hearing about tactical discussion of Eldar vs Tau and what the little nuances of each codex meant. I enjoyed discussing rules and what they meant and how to get into the game itself.

In short I was pumped to play.

My first army (only army) was/is orks. Dakka dakka dakka. I love the fluff, I love the hilarity and fun of the army itself. I love being able to have diverse and crazy units. I primarily love creating my own unique weapons and vehicles based upon wild concepts that involve crazy ork thinking. I played a few games with these friends and it was fun over a few beers.

So I take my army with my far, far more experienced friends down to a local game shop. While those two set up to play each other on an awesome board I was just going to watch. I was approached by a man in his mid 40s to play a game. I said sure but pre-warned him I was extremely fresh into the game.

He unpacks his army of space wolves. The army is fully painted, frankly I didn't think it was anything to write home about, and I start to unpack mine. I have painted as much as I can with the money and time I can allocate to 40k between a full time job and a heavy, heavy school schedule. He took one look at my relatively unpainted army and from there is spiraled downward.

He and another guy he apparently knew chastised me heavily for being unpainted. I mean I couldn't believe what was going on. I had no idea that it was a requirement, only an extension of the game (and admittedly painting is the primary reason I wanted to play). These two older gits were as obnoxious as I've ever met. I was told that if I intend to play this game I had better come with a painted army and that he was insulted that I came down without one. I literally couldn't believe my ears. I explained I had a lack of time and was doing what I could when i could and was told quite literally:

"You're in the wrong game then."

Needless to say I left and have never gone back.

I know of these forums from my buddies and as I'm on this site I'm seeing all these posts about painted armies and why they matter. I'll be honest, after that run in I don't know if I'll continue this beyond our little circle. That's a massive disappointment because I was looking forward to expanding my game. I just don't get it. This was supposed to be a fun way to pass time and all aspects of it are for leisure but from the looks of it it should be treated as a second job.

End rant I suppose. I guess I was curious about your takes on a new player and his inception into this game following this mentality that says "YOU MUST PLAY THIS WAY."

How does this help develop the game at all?

They're jerks. Please continue playing, just not with them.:) Don't obsess about them, and don't let them drive you away from the game. If you do, you make them more important than they are. Basically, just ignore them. For one thing, it'll drive them crazy.

At my LGS, jerks like that would essentially be ostracized, and find it very hard to get a game. Hopefully, they would either adjust their attitude, or go somewhere else.

FYI, I like to play with fully painted armies, I think they look better on the gaming table. But if my opponent doesn't have painted figures, I don't care, it's no skin off my nose. The key thing is to have fun, and avoid jerks like those two.

[Aldramelech]

Yes, this is a hobby intended to be played with PAINTED miniatures. It's always been that way.

For some strange reason when the competitive types get involved, they care more about winning - as if that matters.

If you look at the history of the hobby, it was grown men with toy soldiers who thought "Why not fight battles with them?" so they made rules. H.G.Wells was the pioneer of this and wrote the first ruleset - Little Wars.

What happened to you was terribly unfortunate. First, you weren't told by your friends to paint your stuff. They should have looked out for you. Second was the attitude of your opponent. I'm sure he was insulted by what he saw...you aren't the only person with a busy schedule. I'm sure he has a job, maybe school too or a wife and kids. Yet he some how found time to paint.

Normally this situation occurs with somebody who's been in the hobby a long time and just hasn't painted their army. There is no excuse for it. They give all sorts of reasons, but if they've been playing for years then what's their problem? In your case, as a first time player, it would be better to offer you a loaner army. That is how I got into wargaming - a friend loaned me his army until I could complete mine.

That's not a hard concept.

And when you complete the first 500 points or so...start playing with it. Not every game has to be 2500 points.

Anyway, everyone should remember that in a social hobby like this there are certain expectations. One that I have is that my opponent - even if I've never met him - respects me enough to actually apply paint to his figures like I did to mine. For some reason that concept is terribly insulting to the 'unpainted is okay' crowd...they feel it's insulting and poor behavior on my part, yet don't understand how I can feel the exact same way about them!

What is the minimum standard? Do the models need to be glued together? I've seen players furiously gluing figures before a game. Why? If they don't have to be painted, why do they have to be glued together? (especially when they are PROXIES....). What about just putting GW bases down with numbers written on them? And if that's okay, why not just use pennies?

This game is about painted figures. If a person really and truly doesn't want to paint, there are plenty of other social games out there that don't require painting! Card games and such, for example. I suggest trying them....no offense intended.

Another angle is the concept that banning unpainted figures from the hobby shop would somehow reduce the number of players. I've been in this hobby since the 70's and been involved at many levels....I'll testify that the BEST way to recruit new players is for them to see games with painted figures. It is the painted figures that attract new blood to the hobby...not the rules. 40K is a terrible set of competitive rules anyway. They are only good for casual games.

Well that's my speach. I'm sure to get hate mail...but it won't be the first. The bottom line is this: The hobby has always been intended to be with painted figures. Nobody gets to change that just because they don't have time to paint. If this is you, please raise your own personal standard and just paint your stuff. And if you only game with figures you paint and only buy one unit at a time and paint it...then you're find the GW prices don't hurt as much.

Sensible, well thought out opinions. Its a shame that the "Cant paint/wont paint" crowd can only reply with insults and inflammatory remarks about people "dictating" to them.


Uh, I don't mean to sound dense, but can you quote that? My page 3 paragraph 4 talks about units. I agree with you, I just don't want to sound stupid if I bring this up again :p

"There are unlimited possibilities and players must be prepared to expend time and effort collecting, assembling and painting their models and setting up their battlefields"

My mistake, Page iii, Paragraph 4, Introduction.

[Leez]

"There are unlimited possibilities and players must be prepared to expend time and effort collecting, assembling and painting their models and setting up their battlefields"

My mistake, Page iii, Paragraph 4, Introduction.

Someone would actually use that as a means of arguing one has to paint them, seriously?

I suppose the equally valid counter would then be to point out that "...must be prepared to spend time..." is very different then "...must spend time...".

[Aldramelech]

Right. You and you alone have the right to decide who, what and why you play.

If you decide you don't want to play someone who doesn't have a painted army, you have that right. You just don't get to strut around sticking your chest out and start pestering everyone who doesn't perfectly conform to your idea of what the hobby is.

I believe he had that well covered with "He just shouldn't be a jerk while doing so" Calm down Son.....

Just because there are people who believe that the game should be played with painted figures docent mean YOU can run riot on here insulting people at will.

At the moment your about as guilty of being an *** as anyone your getting bent out of shape about.

How about everybody takes a big step back and starts thinking about respecting Everybody's opinion (and that goes for you too Lady M).

[Aldramelech]

Someone would actually use that as a means of arguing one has to paint them, seriously?

I suppose the equally valid counter would then be to point out that "...must be prepared to spend time..." is very different then "...must spend time...".

Nabterayl posted that their was nothing in the rulebook about playing with painted figures, I was pointing out that he was incorrect. I was not using the quote to argue anything past that.

Read the whole thread before jumping in.....

[Lerra]

"There are unlimited possibilities and players must be prepared to expend time and effort collecting, assembling and painting their models and setting up their battlefields"

If someone wanted to be picky about this quote, it doesn't say anything about fielding a fully painted army - just that you have to be willing to expend time painting your models. ;) From this quote you could infer that it is GW-approved to play against someone who is the in process of painting their army.

I spend lots of time painting my GW models. They just aren't usually the models I use for gaming :p. I really hate repainting a miniature after the paint starts to chip off, especially if I put 10+ hours into the original paintjob. I'll take out my best painted models for big events, but not for daily gaming.

[Aldramelech]

If someone wanted to be picky about this quote, it doesn't say anything about fielding a fully painted army - just that you have to be willing to expend time painting your models. ;) From this quote you could infer that it is GW-approved to play against someone who is the in process of painting their army.

I spend lots of time painting my GW models. They just aren't usually the models I use for gaming :p. I really hate repainting a miniature after the paint starts to chip off, especially if I put 10+ hours into the original paintjob. I'll take out my best painted models for big events, but not for daily gaming.

Did you even read the first reply to this post? Exasperated

[Leez]

Nabterayl posted that their was nothing in the rulebook about playing with painted figures, I was pointing out that he was incorrect. I was not using the quote to argue anything past that.

Read the whole thread before jumping in.....


I neither wrote nor implied I thought you or any specific individual was using page iii, paragraph 4 to argue a person must paint their armies, only that no one could.


I do think Nabterayl implies, by the structure of his paragraph, that he doesn't think there is anything in the rule book about requiring the models are painted. His meaning still stands to the best of my knowledge of the rule book, there is nothing in there stating you must paint your armies. Your reply with page iii, paragraph 4 does not displace this notion.




Read the whole thread before jumping in.....

[Lerra]

Aldra, when I started typing my reply, your post had not appeared yet, so no - I hadn't read your reply. That happens on forums quite frequently.

[Aldramelech]

Aldra, when I started typing my reply, your post had not appeared yet, so no - I hadn't read your reply. That happens on forums quite frequently.

My apologies.

[Aldramelech]

I neither wrote nor implied I thought you or any specific individual was using page iii, paragraph 4 to argue a person must paint their armies, only that no one could.


I do think Nabterayl implies, by the structure of his paragraph, that he doesn't think there is anything in the rule book about requiring the models are painted. His meaning still stands to the best of my knowledge of the rule book, there is nothing in there stating you must paint your armies. Your reply with page iii, paragraph 4 does not displace this notion.


In your opinion,

Others however could argue that is exactly what it says and they are entitled to an opinion too.

I dont care. There are people who like to play with painted figures only and their just as entitled to do that as people who dont.

My problem with this whole argument is the "Moral High Ground" the non painters have taken. Their opinion is no more valid then the counter position. Neither side has the right to be rude to strangers.

Lets take an extreme example. A new player reading this thread decideds to take some of the advice offered by the "Non Painters". He goes along to an established club, whacks his unpainted figures on the table and announces "I play with unpainted figures and if you dont like it you can all F$%£ off!"

I would think that he'd be shown the door pretty quickly regardless what the clubs policy was.

Its a big hobby, you cant agree or even like everbody else in it all the time.

[Leez]

In your opinion,

Others however could argue that is exactly what it says and they are entitled to an opinion too.

I dont care. There are people who like to play with painted figures only and their just as entitled to do that as people who dont.

My problem with this whole argument is the "Moral High Ground" the non painters have taken. Their opinion is no more valid then the counter position. Neither side has the right to be rude to strangers.

Lets take an extreme example. A new player reading this thread decideds to take some of the advice offered by the "Non Painters". He goes along to an established club, whacks his unpainted figures on the table and announces "I play with unpainted figures and if you dont like it you can all F$%£ off!"

I would think that he'd be shown the door pretty quickly regardless what the clubs policy was.

Its a big hobby, you cant agree or even like everbody else in it all the time.

I must admit I would be very curious to see how anyone could construe such an intreptation of "...must be prepared to..." with "...must...".

I do agree with your other assessment though, an inordinate amount of people in here drowing quite nicely despite claiming the moral high ground.

[Aldramelech]

I have no more to say on the subject, Ive got figures to paint:D

[Cossack]

I have no more to say on the subject, Ive got figures to paint:D

Awesome! Maybe some people here should spend less time on the forums and more time with a brush in their hand!

[Aldramelech]

Awesome! Maybe some people here should spend less time on the forums and more time with a brush in their hand!

Or less time with something else in their hand? :eek:

[Bedroom General]

Or less time with something else in their hand? :eek:

Aldra, to quote an Americanism "DUDE!" and to quote The IT Crowd series four ep one"Eiffel Tower!!"
Live Long and Prosper (just made that up;)) U Rock.

[Melissia]

Others however could argue that is exactly what it says and they are entitled to an opinion too.

And their opinion is wrong. They can believe it all they want, but it doesn't make any difference.

Yes, I do believe that all opinions are not equal.

[Aldramelech]

And their opinion is wrong. They can believe it all they want, but it doesn't make any difference.

Yes, I do believe that all opinions are not equal.

Im still waiting on my "Blow Melissia a big kiss" smiley BOLS! (wandres off into the distance muttering) Cant get the service these days, I remember when...........

[Kirsten]

I know of these forums from my buddies and as I'm on this site I'm seeing all these posts about painted armies and why they matter. I'll be honest, after that run in I don't know if I'll continue this beyond our little circle. That's a massive disappointment because I was looking forward to expanding my game. I just don't get it. This was supposed to be a fun way to pass time and all aspects of it are for leisure but from the looks of it it should be treated as a second job.

End rant I suppose. I guess I was curious about your takes on a new player and his inception into this game following this mentality that says "YOU MUST PLAY THIS WAY."

How does this help develop the game at all?

They are your models, it is your game, if you don't want to paint them, then don't. I couldn't care less if your models are painted, undercoated, whatever. Nobody complains about the monotone colour of chess pieces, so ignore any idiot who complains otherwise. It is a hobby, and it is to be played your way, if you want to use alternate figures, paint schemes, rules even so long as your opponent agrees, anything at all, it is your choice. Don't be put off by a few idiots, you find them everywhere you go, in any aspect of life, they are not exclusive to gaming, there isn't even a monopoly on them.

[DarkLink]

Yes, I do believe that all opinions are not equal.

Specifically, an opinion that is clearly based on faulty logic is wrong. As is the case with the idea that painting is "the true core of the hobby", as that argument relies on the faulty presumption that those who share that opinion can somehow force that opinion on others, and that those other's opinions are irrelevant.

[razcalking]

Specifically, an opinion that is clearly based on faulty logic is wrong. As is the case with the idea that painting is "the true core of the hobby", as that argument relies on the faulty presumption that those who share that opinion can somehow force that opinion on others, and that those other's opinions are irrelevant.

As is the case with the idea that painting "doesn't matter", or that "gaming is the true core of the hobby." All of these opinions have the same strength of evidence, which is none. Games Workshop seems to promote all aspects of the hobby equally, so any claims that gaming is more important than painting, or vice versa, have no backing.

[Melissia]

As is the case with the idea that painting "doesn't matter", or that "gaming is the true core of the hobby." All of these opinions have the same strength of evidence, which is none. Games Workshop seems to promote all aspects of the hobby equally, so any claims that gaming is more important than painting, or vice versa, have no backing.
Yes. Which is why when intelligent, reasonable people (IE, not Cossack) make such a claim, they say "to me" and don't try and look down on other people for holding a different viewpoint.

[Nabterayl]

As is the case with the idea that painting "doesn't matter", or that "gaming is the true core of the hobby." All of these opinions have the same strength of evidence, which is none. Games Workshop seems to promote all aspects of the hobby equally, so any claims that gaming is more important than painting, or vice versa, have no backing.
You know, maybe I missed it, but I thought the point most everybody was making was precisely that no single aspect of the hobby gets to define it, or claim "core" status, for the 40K-playing/hobbying population as a whole. What's "core" for one 40K enthusiast may be peripheral for another, and that's okay, right?

Wasn't that pretty much everybody's point?

[DarkLink]

Wasn't that pretty much everybody's point?

Yeah, I was just referring to the relevant case of painting vs gaming.

I think razcalking was kinda sorta playing devil's advocate, to ensure that the logic was consistent both ways. Thus, if this argument were about how gaming is better than modeling, he was pointing out that we would indeed be saying that each individual has the right to enjoy painting more than gaming, so long as they don't try and force that view on other and generally act self-righteous and arrogant.

[Aldramelech]

As is the case with the idea that painting "doesn't matter", or that "gaming is the true core of the hobby." All of these opinions have the same strength of evidence, which is none. Games Workshop seems to promote all aspects of the hobby equally, so any claims that gaming is more important than painting, or vice versa, have no backing.

Excellent. 100% agreement.

[klinesmith]

I had an interesting turn of RL events over these past few days. Checking back I really did not expect this thread to explode.


I simply left. There was nothing more to it and nothing more needed. That said I still have yet to see a good reason as to why it is so essential to have a fully painted unit. I enjoy that aspect of the hobby the most, but this is a hobby, not a career.


Frankly put: people who declare as a given fact that painting are a requirement are the people that make me question this hobby as a whole. The end response seems to be: quit, better off without you.


What confused me and confuses me reading through this thread is the general split in belief. When I stack them side by side I see this:

Paint if you want to, or don't.

and

Paint or don't play.

I really, really, really cannot for the life of me fathom how the latter is a better and more enjoyable attitude to bring to the table for any new player.

[klinesmith]

With all that being said, his opponent has every right to refuse a game if he doesn't want to spend his time playing against an unpainted army.




What is the school of thought behind this? It's insulting to me etc etc etc is what I'm reading over and over again.

My frustration comes from the arrogance of the "must be painted" crowd in its assumption that I have had and will have all the time they had to fully paint my army irregardless of my own personal situations.

I still have not seen a single solid argument as to why the army must be fully painted to be fielded against some of you (Cossak) beyond some weird belief that your idea of the hobby is the correct idea. There is no factual base for this opinion, only an apparent reconstruction of a single statement in the handbook that is as open to interpretation as a debate on deontology versus teleology.

Whereas one side says live and let live, the other says do or die.

[Aldramelech]

What is the school of thought behind this? It's insulting to me etc etc etc is what I'm reading over and over again.

My frustration comes from the arrogance of the "must be painted" crowd in its assumption that I have had and will have all the time they had to fully paint my army irregardless of my own personal situations.

I still have not seen a single solid argument as to why the army must be fully painted to be fielded against some of you (Cossak) beyond some weird belief that your idea of the hobby is the correct idea. There is no factual base for this opinion, only an apparent reconstruction of a single statement in the handbook that is as open to interpretation as a debate on deontology versus teleology.

Whereas one side says live and let live, the other says do or die.

Because if you dont, they look crap ;)

[Nabterayl]

What is the school of thought behind this? It's insulting to me etc etc etc is what I'm reading over and over again.
Well ... depends on what you mean. If you ask me a player should have the right not to play anybody for any reason - after all, as we've been saying throughout this thread, this is a hobby, and it's supposed to be fun. If somebody says they won't have fun playing against an unpainted army, who's to say that they're wrong? And if they wouldn't have fun, isn't that a valid reason to decline (politely) to play? It's no better or worse a reason than, "I don't have fun playing against people whose lists don't fit my idea of 'fluffy'" or "I don't have fun playing against people whose lists don't fit my idea of 'competitive'" or "I don't have fun playing against people who use proxies" or "I don't have fun playing against people who take five minutes to think about every action" or "I don't have fun playing against people who get annoyed at me because I have to take five minutes to think about every action" or any other reason people might not have fun.

As for the philosophy behind wanting to play only with and against painted models, I've seen three. One is the "I feel insulted" argument that we've already seen. Another is "I just don't like it" (which is how I'd paraphrase Aldramech's position), which, honestly, I think is okay.

A third, and I don't say this applies to anybody in this thread, is the feeling that there's almost a social contract element to it - roughly, "Well, I have inconvenienced myself to fully paint my army, so my fellow players owe it to me to inconvenience themselves as well."

I don't find that particularly convincing, as (i) nobody should have asked those players to inconvenience themselves in the first place, (ii) if somebody did they should have told those players to feth off, as nobody should involuntarily inconvenience themselves for the sake of a hobby, and (iii) there is no implied contract here whereby one stranger can alter his position to his detriment and thereby obligate another stranger to do the same.

So I've seen that attitude out there, and it's different from "I'm insulted by the fact that your miniatures are not beautiful to look at." I don't credit the argument, but I've seen it before.

[Aldramelech]

I have to say that I do like to immerse myself in the game. This is my escape for a few hours and to truly escape and lock out the **** sandwhich that is my life, it has to be painted. Particularly with historical games, it makes it more "real" and easier to loose myself. It adds to my experience and enjoyment and helps my suspension of disbelief.

And because unpainted figures look crap :)

[Nabterayl]

I have to say that I do like to immerse myself in the game. This is my escape for a few hours and to truly escape and lock out the **** sandwhich that is my life, it has to be painted. Particularly with historical games, it makes it more "real" and easier to loose myself. It adds to my experience and enjoyment and helps my suspension of disbelief.

And because unpainted figures look crap :)
Right. And the critical difference here is that you're saying, "Look, it's just not fun for me otherwise" instead of "You're a f*ckwad for not having your figures painted" or "You make me feel like I wasted my time painting my figures."

[Leez]

Whereas one side says live and let live, the other says do or die.

And both sides are opperating under the same motivation, a desire to gain enjoyment of the hobby. People have different ideas about what that takes, and thus different expecations are thrust out upon those they interact with. As yet neither can claim to be correct, how does a person argue soundly what they want, that their desire is, is fundamentally right and that the contrary is wrong? Personally I view people that insist either side is the right one as silly especially when the one and only rule we have recourse to on the topic at hand (and the the other similar ones, e.g. casual vs. waac) is found on page 2.

[Aldramelech]

Right. And the critical difference here is that you're saying, "Look, it's just not fun for me otherwise" instead of "You're a f*ckwad for not having your figures painted" or "You make me feel like I wasted my time painting my figures."

That would be those wonderful social skills I have developed by:

A/ Not being an American
2/ Surviving to be fat and middle aged
C/ Never playing a pick game in my entire life :p

[Melissia]

Not being an American

Well there goes those social skills right out the window.

[Bigred]

Now, now, thre are plenty of nice Americans (like me)

When the urge to type something uncouth strikes, always remember to pause, count to 10, and thing of the what the toy soldiers would think...

[razcalking]

What is the school of thought behind this? It's insulting to me etc etc etc is what I'm reading over and over again.

The reasoning is that if playing against other painted armies is what makes the hobby fun for a person, they're under absolutely no obligation to waste their time playing against unpainted armies. Why should they be forced to waste an hour of their time so that you can have fun while they don't?

[BuFFo]

That would be those wonderful social skills I have developed by:

A/ Not being an American
2/ Surviving to be fat and middle aged
C/ Never playing a pick game in my entire life :p

I agree!

Thank God I am not British ( I am Brasilian ), I mean, I enjoy having straight, beautiful teeth, and the ability to show a woman affection!!!! :D :D

[SierraFiveOne]

I'm not much of a fan of pick-up games. I'd much rather play with a group of people I know instead of some random guy who I can only judge by appearance and a few minutes worth of conversation.

Here's my opinion on the matter, mostly based on my own experience. Yes, I prefer to play a game with painted miniatures. However, to rudely refuse to play a new player because their army isn't painted is ludicrous. To chastise them for not playing the game your way is not only incredibly rude, but blatantly in violation of the first and biggest rule that appears in the main rulebook: Have Fun. After all, when you boil it down, we're all paying exorbitant prices to push little plastic space men around. If nobody's having fun, what's the point?

Often times, a new player with a brand new army wants to test their force as soon as possible. Expecting somebody to have a fully painted army for their very first game is, I believe, unrealistic. Armies take a lot of time to paint, especially if the player's picked up a horde army or wants to put a good amount of detail into every model. Time is not unlimited and most people out there cannot dedicate every waking moment to Warhammer. We have families, friends, jobs, school, and a myriad of other activities besides our little plastic guys. In some cases (mine), the nearest store that sells games workshop products requires a 200 mile drive crossing two state lines. The nearest store with gaming tables is even further. As a result, if I have a chance to play a game, even if it's on a friend's dining room table with books and soda cans for terrain, I'll take it. My army probably won't be fully painted.

The last game I played was with my Orks, which are my newest army. At the moment, most of them are sprayed black, with a few in various stages of completion. I only have a few models fully painted (a Warboss and a biker). Likewise, my main opponent has a Space Wolf army in much the same condition. A few of his models are missing parts (he likes to paint the pieces and then assemble the model) and a great deal of imagination was involved in the last game.

And you know what? It was one of the best games I've ever played. We were making machine gun noises in the shooting phase, chainsaw noises in the assault phase, heck, he even joined in when I called my WAAAAGH! Was it a pretty game? Not really. Flat black Orks vs Armless Space Marines wasn't the most beautiful fight ever, but it was fun.

I haven't seen that friend in a few months now, but that game gave more than a few good memories of the final duel between Wolf Lord Grimfist the Dark vs Ork Warboss Ugbob Nutzkicka.

I wouldn't trade that game for one played against a jerk with two 'Eavy Metal-quality armies on a professionally built table. It would look pretty, but it wouldn't be fun. And that would be against the rules.

Short version: Play for fun. Paint if you can, but not at the expense of fun. If you catch crap like that again, just remember that in the end, it's just a game with little plastic guys. An unpainted army will NOT open the seventh seal and unleash Satan himself upon mortal soil. I promise.

[Aldramelech]

Now, now, thre are plenty of nice Americans (like me)

When the urge to type something uncouth strikes, always remember to pause, count to 10, and thing of the what the toy soldiers would think...

Unfortunately, I'm Half septic, so I kinda feel entitled ;)

[HsojVvad]

The reasoning is that if playing against other painted armies is what makes the hobby fun for a person, they're under absolutely no obligation to waste their time playing against unpainted armies. Why should they be forced to waste an hour of their time so that you can have fun while they don't?

That is correct. They are under no obigation, but if they choose to play they shouldn't begrudge or belittle anyone for not having their "standards" when playing.

You don't have to be an arse to someone who has an unfinished army or using proxies or whatever. They are not forced to waste an hour of their time.

So since you are saying people are being "forced to play" does that make them a better person because they have WYSIWYG, and a fully painted army? Nobody is better than someone else just because they have a painted army.

You don't like not painted armies, be polite and don't play them. You don't have to be an arse about it. That definently makes you the worse person, not better.

[scadugenga]

Believe it or no, no one gets to dictate how other people should spend their time, nor may they attempt to force their own interests on others.

Absofrikkinlutely.

Hobby Stalins can go fondle themselves. In front of a FLIP cam. To be uploaded on Youtube. So the world can laugh at their lack of..."stature."

As for the OP:

Buffo might have been a bit more...brusque...than I would have, but his points are absolutely valid.

Don't let anyone tell you can't play a game because you don't meet some arbitrary standard.

Much less some self-inflated ubergeek whose self esteem is apparently found in the quality of a table-top painted miniature.

Which, ironically, the H-S may not have actually painted himself.

[HsojVvad]

Hobby Stalins, I love that better than Rules Lawyers. So if we call someone a Hobby Stalin here, can we get in trouble for that?

[scadugenga]

Hobby Stalins, I love that better than Rules Lawyers. So if we call someone a Hobby Stalin here, can we get in trouble for that?

"Hobby Stalin" evolved from the forum filtering out a more apt, but apparently less appropriate totalitarian regime of the same historic era. ;)

Ironically, in a thread not too dissimilar to this one.

[scadugenga]

Now, now, thre are plenty of nice Americans (like me)

When the urge to type something uncouth strikes, always remember to pause, count to 10, and thing of the what the toy soldiers would think...


What, Blood for the Blood God?

;)

[Aldramelech]

Absofrikkinlutely.

Hobby Stalins can go fondle themselves. In front of a FLIP cam. To be uploaded on Youtube. So the world can laugh at their lack of..."stature."

As for the OP:

Buffo might have been a bit more...brusque...than I would have, but his points are absolutely valid.

Don't let anyone tell you can't play a game because you don't meet some arbitrary standard.

Much less some self-inflated ubergeek whose self esteem is apparently found in the quality of a table-top painted miniature.

Which, ironically, the H-S may not have actually painted himself.




Hobby Stalins, I love that better than Rules Lawyers. So if we call someone a Hobby Stalin here, can we get in trouble for that?


"Hobby Stalin" evolved from the forum filtering out a more apt, but apparently less appropriate totalitarian regime of the same historic era. ;)

Ironically, in a thread not too dissimilar to this one.

Well if we're going to start pigeonholing people with nifty little nicknames what are we going to call the cant/wont/don't/refuse to crowd?

Hobby Bums? Gaming Castro's? Modeling Communists?

What I find amusing is that there are people on here that have become so radical in their defense of their "right" to play with their unpainted half built armies that they have become far, far more intolerant then the people they are moaning about.

How about anti painting terrorists? No much better, Anti painting Pedophiles! After all if your going to compare a group of people to a mass murdering psycho, I guess it would only be fair for them to call you something equally offensive right?

Edit: I have no idea why the thumbs up icon has appeared, I certainly didn't push it.

[Leez]

More like,



Gut them! Slaughter them!
Slay them! Butcher them!
Kill! Kill! Kill!
Never stop, never tire!
Keep doing the Lord's work!

[Melissia]

Adralmech: Why not just put this in your signature: "Hello, I willfully misinterpret everything you say!"



Jokes aside, nobody is insulting anyone who likes painting more than anyone else What we don't like is people who insult others and act like stuck up pricks about it.

[Aldramelech]

Adralmech: Why not just put this in your signature: "Hello, I willfully misinterpret everything you say!"



Jokes aside, nobody is insulting anyone who likes painting more than anyone else What we don't like is people who insult others and act like stuck up pricks about it.

From the Author of the "Breaking the rules/Cheating" thread? Stop throwing stones at my greenhouse! :p

[scadugenga]

Well if we're going to start pigeonholing people with nifty little nicknames what are we going to call the cant/wont/don't/refuse to crowd?

Hobby Bums? Gaming Castro's? Modeling Communists?

What I find amusing is that there are people on here that have become so radical in their defense of their "right" to play with their unpainted half built armies that they have become far, far more intolerant then the people they are moaning about.

How about anti painting terrorists? No much better, Anti painting Pedophiles! After all if your going to compare a group of people to a mass murdering psycho, I guess it would only be fair for them to call you something equally offensive right?

Edit: I have no idea why the thumbs up icon has appeared, I certainly didn't push it.

That's not pigeonholing people, that's describing a certain particular (and to my opinion, distasteful) type of player. One much like the OP had to suffer which prompted the whole thread.

1) A Hobby Stalin is the same thing as an Authenticity "Stalin" (since the Third Reich party is ***'d out by the bols filter.) If you don't know what an Authenticity "Stalin" is, how are you even a gamer? :) Here's a basic definition: "An individual who feels that their life calling is to point out the perceived inaccuracies in other's actions/involvement in a hobby. This term is often applied to folks who go a tad overboard or are rude/nasty when making their terse comments. " Initially coined (I believe) in Civil War re-enactors/SCA/Ren Faire, etc. It's now used almost unilaterally to describe a person who has to do something exactly they way it is supposed to be done, or that it has always been done, to the nth degree of minutiae. You can find references of the term used in cooking, sewing, antique car restoration, martial arts, historical re-enactment, renaissance faires, LARPing...the list goes on, and on and on. Don't believe me? Just google the two words with quotes surrounding them and you'll find myriad examples of the term used in daily life.

2) The term "Authenticity N a z i ("Hobby Stalin" for general use here) has been in general use for at least 30 years. Probably longer, to be honest. I've known about it for over 20 years, and it wasn't "new" then.

3) But if you're looking to be offended...I guess you will be. I can't control that. :)

You're over-exaggerating here. To whit--show me a post by someone who has declared that they would refuse to play someone who came with a fully painted army?

Now I suppose you can look at the opposite end of the spectrum where there's little-to-know adherence to the "hobby" and pick out a choice few descriptors:

Hobby Hippies
Anarchists
Rogue Trader Devotees

Though, to think of it, I know a few people who would probably gleefully refer to themselves as "hobby hippies."

All that being said, I've seen the vast majority of people who don't have an issue with unpainted minis have the attitude of "just let me play the frikkin game and leave me be, k?"

Hardly totalitarian, that.

Maybe it's just different across the Pond?


Edit: So, huh, a long-winded definition and reply when Melissia summed it up so much more succinctly. Gah. 2am, benadryl & consciousness don't go all that well together, it seems...

[the jeske]

To whit--show me a post by someone who has declared that they would refuse to play someone who came with a fully painted army?
oh I have seen countless posts on all forums about how people wouldnt play leafblower or lash/oblit[when it worked] or eldar cirucs[when it worked] .

[scadugenga]

oh I have seen countless posts on all forums about how people wouldnt play leafblower or lash/oblit[when it worked] or eldar cirucs[when it worked] .

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is painted/unpainted minis related.

People who whine about playing against a particular build just need to grow up a bit. But if they refuse to play, which is their prerogative, they should be polite and respectful in communicating their decision to their opponent--as long as it's not in a tournament locale.

Though I remember in a RT tourney I was in way back in the day, where a player flatly refused to play against her opponent because he was running a speed freaks list.

And she needed to grow up some too.

But so did the tourney organizers, since they capitulated and re-arranged tables to accommodate her...

[Aldramelech]

That's not pigeonholing people, that's describing a certain particular (and to my opinion, distasteful) type of player. One much like the OP had to suffer which prompted the whole thread.

1) A Hobby Stalin is the same thing as an Authenticity "Stalin" (since the Third Reich party is ***'d out by the bols filter.) If you don't know what an Authenticity "Stalin" is, how are you even a gamer? :) Here's a basic definition: "An individual who feels that their life calling is to point out the perceived inaccuracies in other's actions/involvement in a hobby. This term is often applied to folks who go a tad overboard or are rude/nasty when making their terse comments. " Initially coined (I believe) in Civil War re-enactors/SCA/Ren Faire, etc. It's now used almost unilaterally to describe a person who has to do something exactly they way it is supposed to be done, or that it has always been done, to the nth degree of minutiae. You can find references of the term used in cooking, sewing, antique car restoration, martial arts, historical re-enactment, renaissance faires, LARPing...the list goes on, and on and on. Don't believe me? Just google the two words with quotes surrounding them and you'll find myriad examples of the term used in daily life.

2) The term "Authenticity N a z i ("Hobby Stalin" for general use here) has been in general use for at least 30 years. Probably longer, to be honest. I've known about it for over 20 years, and it wasn't "new" then.

3) But if you're looking to be offended...I guess you will be. I can't control that. :)

You're over-exaggerating here. To whit--show me a post by someone who has declared that they would refuse to play someone who came with a fully painted army?

Now I suppose you can look at the opposite end of the spectrum where there's little-to-know adherence to the "hobby" and pick out a choice few descriptors:

Hobby Hippies
Anarchists
Rogue Trader Devotees

Though, to think of it, I know a few people who would probably gleefully refer to themselves as "hobby hippies."

All that being said, I've seen the vast majority of people who don't have an issue with unpainted minis have the attitude of "just let me play the frikkin game and leave me be, k?"

Hardly totalitarian, that.

Maybe it's just different across the Pond?


Edit: So, huh, a long-winded definition and reply when Melissia summed it up so much more succinctly. Gah. 2am, benadryl & consciousness don't go all that well together, it seems...

And who are you to judge anyone? What gives you the right to decide your going to label someone?

Oh, OK, so because people have been using it for years that makes it all perfectly acceptable, glad we cleared that one up. Haven't you lot been calling black people ******s for a couple of hundred years? Guess thats OK too then.....

This argument transcends this thread, its been going on here for a long time. Several members of this forum seem to think that they can bully anyone who thinks the game should only be played with painted figures into silence by insulting them and name calling.

Well Ive had enough. And now that Ive pointed it out you're all going to stand around like John McEnroe saying "What did I do, what did I do?"

A person who plays only with painted figures and will not play with people who do not paint their figures is not automatically an "*** Hat", "*** Hole", "N a z 1", "Stalin" or any other label you want to throw at them.

He is a person who has worked hard to achieve his goal, he has sacrificed his spare time and shown dedication to his chosen hobby. And maybe, just maybe he might get slightly ticked off that others don't appreciate that.

[the jeske]

I wish I was as tough a hombre as Stalin , but that is off topic. As what to start with . DO NOT START WITH AN ARMY THAT FORCES YOU TO BUY 150+ models to play . go for something easy [more or less meq] with a working codex with more then one build possible [SW or BA for example , normal loyalist sm aint bad too]. Test stuff ,if you cant proxy or do it in games with friends , then check what unit A or B can do to a 10 man Tactical in a turn or two and how good does it survive incoming shoting. dont deploy just roll die 30-40 times. This way you wont end up with 30 venguard or normal termis just because you like the models . As looks go , remember that GW supports counts as fully , so if you want BA with RAS looking like Venguard go for it[if you have the money that is]. Dont start the army with the elite/FA/hvy support section . Pick one and take two units from one of those and test if you like it .This will again save you from ending up with 2 terminator units , three tanks , Assault sm and one tactical [that is unless you want to play BA] and army that you may not like after a year . Remember as fun as w40k may seem not everyone stays to play it for 20 years. It is better to pick up something that works and play a year and then quit , then play with something that doesnt work and rage quit for a year . [because the chance that you will come back in situation 2 is rather slim].

[Kirsten]

Frankly put: people who declare as a given fact that painting are a requirement are the people that make me question this hobby as a whole. The end response seems to be: quit, better off without you.


What confused me and confuses me reading through this thread is the general split in belief. When I stack them side by side I see this:

Paint if you want to, or don't.

and

Paint or don't play.

I really, really, really cannot for the life of me fathom how the latter is a better and more enjoyable attitude to bring to the table for any new player.


He is a person who has worked hard to achieve his goal, he has sacrificed his spare time and shown dedication to his chosen hobby. And maybe, just maybe he might get slightly ticked off that others don't appreciate that.

Nobody is forced to play anybody, if you have particular criteria for gaming, then you simply politely inform people to that effect, no harm, no foul. There is no need to get ticked off because someone else hasn't painted their models. There is nothing better about having painted models, the simple answer is to find people you enjoy playing with, find an open minded group who all want to have fun. There is also no reason why you should have to borrow someone else's army just because you haven't finished yours, that just excludes new players which is never something you should seek to do. If your club/group has a painted miniatures policy that is perfectly fine, but give new gamers a reasonable amount of time to get up to speed.

I like the idea of being a hobby stalin, I hereby dub my paint station Kirstengrad, I shall put snipers overlooking it and tanks around a small statue of me in the centre, and brass bands shall play whilst I paint.

[Aldramelech]

There is nothing better about having painted models

Yeah there is, their painted......

[Kirsten]

Yeah there is, their painted......

So? Being painted does not make them better. You may like them more, that is up to you. I certainly prefer playing against painted models, but if someone doesn't want to paint them, that is fine, doesn't make their army worse.

[Aldramelech]

So? Being painted does not make them better.

Yeah, it does....

[warpcrafter]

At my FLGS, we have so many people who are constantly moving from one army to another that they rarely have any painted miniatures, unless they got them that was from Ebay. If anyone tries to put you down for not using a fully painted army, screw 'em!!! Jerks.

[Kirsten]

Yeah, it does....

No it doesn't. You cannot be objective about something like that, it is an entirely personal choice. Why do you feel painted models are better? Genuine question, not sarcastic. What is it you like about them? Personally I like seeing what people do with colours, it might cause a random flash of inspiration for future events. But I don't care whether people paint them or not.

[Aldramelech]

No it doesn't. You cannot be objective about something like that, it is an entirely personal choice. Why do you feel painted models are better? Genuine question, not sarcastic. What is it you like about them? Personally I like seeing what people do with colours, it might cause a random flash of inspiration for future events. But I don't care whether people paint them or not.

They just are, so there.

[scadugenga]

And who are you to judge anyone? What gives you the right to decide your going to label someone?

Oh, OK, so because people have been using it for years that makes it all perfectly acceptable, glad we cleared that one up. Haven't you lot been calling black people ******s for a couple of hundred years? Guess thats OK too then.....

That is so wrong on so many levels that there's no response fit for printing.




A person who plays only with painted figures and will not play with people who do not paint their figures is not automatically an "*** Hat", "*** Hole", "N a z 1", "Stalin" or any other label you want to throw at them.

He is a person who has worked hard to achieve his goal, he has sacrificed his spare time and shown dedication to his chosen hobby. And maybe, just maybe he might get slightly ticked off that others don't appreciate that.

And...you're missing the point again.

If my point was on hole 4 of the golf course, you're standing around somewhere in the tennis court area.

No one is saying that they can't appreciate someone who's spent time, effort and dedication into painting their army. I certainly appreciate anyone who has the skills to do an awesome job painting their army--primarily because I a) lack that skill, and b) don't have the time or inclination to spend learning to paint to a high degree of quality.

But if said person decides to belittle/ridicule/condescend to someone because of their lack of painting skills/time/ability, then yes, I will judge them. And they will be found wanting. People make judgments every day. This is no different.

If someone with an unpainted army was acting in a similar rude manner to someone who had a painted army, I'd find them just as lacking as a hobby stalin.

Compare me to a racist again, though, and you and I will have a problem. A very severe one.

[Aldramelech]

That is so wrong on so many levels that there's no response fit for printing.



And...you're missing the point again.

If my point was on hole 4 of the golf course, you're standing around somewhere in the tennis court area.

No one is saying that they can't appreciate someone who's spent time, effort and dedication into painting their army. I certainly appreciate anyone who has the skills to do an awesome job painting their army--primarily because I a) lack that skill, and b) don't have the time or inclination to spend learning to paint to a high degree of quality.

But if said person decides to belittle/ridicule/condescend to someone because of their lack of painting skills/time/ability, then yes, I will judge them. And they will be found wanting. People make judgments every day. This is no different.

If someone with an unpainted army was acting in a similar rude manner to someone who had a painted army, I'd find them just as lacking as a hobby stalin.

Compare me to a racist again, though, and you and I will have a problem. A very severe one.

Really? As opposed to being compared with a Mass Murderer? What you going to do hunt me down?

Your funny man

[scadugenga]

Really? As opposed to being compared with a Mass Murderer? What you going to do hunt me down?

Your funny man

I'll just add you to the book of grudges.

Underlined and in bold type.

[DarkLink]

Really, Aldramelech, I thought you had a better attitude than this. You're acting petulant and combative, simply because a bunch of people disagree with you.


And who are you to judge anyone? What gives you the right to decide your going to label someone?


And who are you to tell me what parts of my own hobby I can enjoy?

[harrybuttwhisker]

At the end of the day you have the right to play or not play whoever you like. However you have no right to be an ******* to people. Try and be respectful whatever your point of view is.

WYSIWYG is an aid to to play a smoother game as everything is obvious to both players, not an essential, it is possible to proxy as long as you take the time to properly communicate what things are before the game.

Painted models make the game more aesthetically pleasing, but not essential, though can be a nice talking point to increase pleasant social interraction.

If you paint well and someone wants help improving there painting speed/quality help them.

If your a good tactician/army builder and someone wants to make there army more competitive help them.

Its a hobby community a positive welcoming enviroment attracts similar people, a negative atmosphere just creates more *******s.

First question to ask is am treating the other person how I would want to be treated.

If you dont like there attitude or behaviour walk away and find like minded people and create a happy positive community.

I really shouldn't drink in the afternoon it makes me sound reasonable.

[BuFFo]

Really, Aldramelech, I thought you had a better attitude than this. You're acting petulant and combative, simply because a bunch of people disagree with you.

I realized this last year.

Glad you guys are coming around to it.

[the jeske]

I have a simple question when your standing/siting on the other side of a 4x6 table what is the difference in estethic expriance if the models are black [Black legion] Red[blood angles] or grey [not painted] ? and how about DH armies where most of the time it is just smoke ink done on metal . I mean I understand that some people go in to that whole in character thing [which I personaly find wierd to say the least] , but as gaming goes your not going to pick up my models[against the rules , save for lash and more against the table top etiquet] I doubt your going to come to my side of the table at start looking , if my EC have green or gold visors[or maybe they are just pink because I didnt want to pain them] . Or is this the part of the whole hours people spend before battles talking about what units are ok and not ok to to be taken and about the "cool" stories they wrote for their armies[again wierd to me] ? because If yes then I do know why we have a different view on things. tournament , pick up game in shop or club here is just a game . you take a table play for an hour and then the next guys in line play . There is no time for hours of talking how you paint red with 13 different steps, at least not when your at the gaming table . when you do not game , you can talk about what ever you want .

[HsojVvad]

Well if we're going to start pigeonholing people with nifty little nicknames what are we going to call the cant/wont/don't/refuse to crowd?

Hobby Bums? Gaming Castro's? Modeling Communists?

What I find amusing is that there are people on here that have become so radical in their defense of their "right" to play with their unpainted half built armies that they have become far, far more intolerant then the people they are moaning about.

How about anti painting terrorists? No much better, Anti painting Pedophiles! After all if your going to compare a group of people to a mass murdering psycho, I guess it would only be fair for them to call you something equally offensive right?

Edit: I have no idea why the thumbs up icon has appeared, I certainly didn't push it.

*Stands up* "I am a Hobby Bum. Proud of it. Now let's play and have some"

Now back to reading page 9 and reading more comments.

[HsojVvad]

A person who plays only with painted figures and will not play with people who do not paint their figures is not automatically an "*** Hat", "*** Hole", "N a z 1", "Stalin" or any other label you want to throw at them.

He is a person who has worked hard to achieve his goal, he has sacrificed his spare time and shown dedication to his chosen hobby. And maybe, just maybe he might get slightly ticked off that others don't appreciate that.

A person with painted figures did work hard to achieve his goal and sacrificed his spart time. But again so what. Do we give him or her a medal? Do we give them a sticker? No we don't. They got the enjoyment out of what they wanted to do. They enjoyed doing it.

What about the people who don't like to paint? What about the people who don't like to model? What about the people who just want to game? Why should they be talken down to?

You say they maybe a little ticked off that others don't apprciate that? How so? I think almost everyone appreciates people who take the time to paint their armies. What do you mean we don't appreciate it? Just because we have unpainted armies means we are unappreciated?

Well if you want to talk about unappreciated, how about people who spend so much money on GW, spend all that time painting models when they can be helping out thier fellow man? I bet in ever city or town where anyone plays 40K or GW or any games, they Unappreciate human life. Where on earth gives these people the right to waste their time and money on over priced plastic toy soldiers while there fellow man suffers with no clothes or food, or a roof over their heads?

So you can see if you want to talk about being holier than though because someone paints a fully army and expects everyone too, or at least "appreciates" it, it can go in the reverse and say how that Great person who paints their army and dedicates all his spare time painting and modelling is really a person who is selfish and dosn't care about his fellow man because he or she puts his or her money into a hobby instead of bettering mankind.

See how foolish you sound now, that we don't "appreciate" people who play with fully painted armies. I sounded foolish for saying what I just did, just like how you sounded foolish saying we are beneath you because we don't have fully painted armies.

Again, you don't want to play agaisnt a non painted army, fine, just be polite about it, and don't force your views onto others, that is all.

[HsojVvad]

That is so wrong on so many levels that there's no response fit for printing.



And...you're missing the point again.

If my point was on hole 4 of the golf course, you're standing around somewhere in the tennis court area.

No one is saying that they can't appreciate someone who's spent time, effort and dedication into painting their army. I certainly appreciate anyone who has the skills to do an awesome job painting their army--primarily because I a) lack that skill, and b) don't have the time or inclination to spend learning to paint to a high degree of quality.

But if said person decides to belittle/ridicule/condescend to someone because of their lack of painting skills/time/ability, then yes, I will judge them. And they will be found wanting. People make judgments every day. This is no different.

If someone with an unpainted army was acting in a similar rude manner to someone who had a painted army, I'd find them just as lacking as a hobby stalin.

Compare me to a racist again, though, and you and I will have a problem. A very severe one.

Well said, I wish I had the words as good as yours.

*edit* Sorry hit the wrong button in my haste to poste, I didn't mean to make 3 posts in a row, with so much reading I forgot to hit edit instead. My appoliges to the Mods here.

[Aldramelech]

And who are you to tell me what parts of my own hobby I can enjoy?

And where have I done that exactly? What I have said is that your anti painters attitude sucks.


I realized this last year.

Glad you guys are coming around to it.

As bad as I could be, I'll never be as bad as you.


A person with painted figures did work hard to achieve his goal and sacrificed his spart time. But again so what. Do we give him or her a medal? Do we give them a sticker? No we don't. They got the enjoyment out of what they wanted to do. They enjoyed doing it.

What about the people who don't like to paint? What about the people who don't like to model? What about the people who just want to game? Why should they be talken down to?

You say they maybe a little ticked off that others don't apprciate that? How so? I think almost everyone appreciates people who take the time to paint their armies. What do you mean we don't appreciate it? Just because we have unpainted armies means we are unappreciated?

Well if you want to talk about unappreciated, how about people who spend so much money on GW, spend all that time painting models when they can be helping out thier fellow man? I bet in ever city or town where anyone plays 40K or GW or any games, they Unappreciate human life. Where on earth gives these people the right to waste their time and money on over priced plastic toy soldiers while there fellow man suffers with no clothes or food, or a roof over their heads?

So you can see if you want to talk about being holier than though because someone paints a fully army and expects everyone too, or at least "appreciates" it, it can go in the reverse and say how that Great person who paints their army and dedicates all his spare time painting and modelling is really a person who is selfish and dosn't care about his fellow man because he or she puts his or her money into a hobby instead of bettering mankind.

See how foolish you sound now, that we don't "appreciate" people who play with fully painted armies. I sounded foolish for saying what I just did, just like how you sounded foolish saying we are beneath you because we don't have fully painted armies.

Again, you don't want to play agaisnt a non painted army, fine, just be polite about it, and don't force your views onto others, that is all.

What the hell are you talking about? Does the word coherent mean anything to you?

[Kirsten]

I realized this last year.

Glad you guys are coming around to it.


As bad as I could be, I'll never be as bad as you.

Actually Aldramelech it is incredible you haven't been banned yet given the rudeness of your replies, the aggressive insulting tone, and frequent trolling.

[razcalking]

"Insulting people with unpainted armies" and "refusing games against unpainted armies" are NOT THE SAME THING.

I don't go around insulting people who like the Twilight series, but I sure as hell am not going to buy a ticket to one of the movies.

Any person can refuse any game for any reason, as long as they're not a jerk about it. YOU demanding that they play a game that won't be fun for them is the unacceptable part.

[scadugenga]

"Insulting people with unpainted armies" and "refusing games against unpainted armies" are NOT THE SAME THING.


I am 100% on board with you on this.

Nothing wrong with not wanting to play someone with an unfinished paint job (my feelings wouldn't be hurt) as long as you're polite about it.

[Bean]

"Insulting people with unpainted armies" and "refusing games against unpainted armies" are NOT THE SAME THING.


This is true. It's worth noting, however, that the OP was actually complaining about being insulted for having an unpainted army. Basically, he was told that, until he got his army painted, he didn't deserve to play the game or participate in the hobby.

This attitude, the one the thread is actually about, is unacceptable.

You are certainly correct in saying that anyone can refuse a game for any reason and that no-one should be able to demand that you play a game that won't be fun for you. The fact remains, though, that there are people who take a much stronger and less appropriate stance on the matter, and those are the people the thread was intended to discuss.

Presenting a similar but more reasonable position doesn't constitute a defense of the position which is being attacked, here.

[Aldramelech]

Actually Aldramelech it is incredible you haven't been banned yet given the rudeness of your replies, the aggressive insulting tone, and frequent trolling.

Well we can all be thankful that your not in charge then.

[Chris Copeland]

On topic: can we all agree that politely refusing to play someone who hasn't painted their army is acceptable as long as it is done in a polite and respectful manner? Can we all agree that the blokes in the Original Post come off as jerks and are not representative of LOADS of decent and pleasant players out there? Lastly, can we all agree that we all bring different wants and needs to this hobby of ours? Maybe I've missed something, but I don't think Alramelech has contradicted any of those things that seem so basic to me. Anyhoo... good gaming to all... cheers... Copeland

[Aldramelech]

On topic: can we all agree that politely refusing to play someone who hasn't painted their army is acceptable as long as it is done in a polite and respectful manner? Can we all agree that the blokes in the Original Post come off as jerks and are not representative of LOADS of decent and pleasant players out there? Lastly, can we all agree that we all bring different wants and needs to this hobby of ours? Maybe I've missed something, but I don't think Alramelech has contradicted any of those things that seem so basic to me. Anyhoo... good gaming to all... cheers... Copeland

No, Indeed I have not. Agreed.

[scadugenga]

And where have I done that exactly? What I have said is that your anti painters attitude sucks.


Actually he doesn't seem to have an "anti-painter" attitude, he seems to have a "don't be an asshat" attitude.

[charliemachina]

If a 40 year old man asked me why I hadn't fully painted my army I was say:

"YOUR A VIRGIN ARN'T YOU?"

If he continuied to anoy me i'd ask him

"DO YOU STILL LIVE WITH YOUR MUM?"

Were he to fail to back down I would suggest that

"BEING GOOD AT PLAYING WITH LITTLE MEN DOES NOT MASK FAILURE AT LIFE"

Charlie

[Melissia]

I wonder how people would react if I talked down to people who enjoyed painting but hate gaming... apparently it's okay to talk down to gamers, but oh, if you DARE say ANYTHING about painters, you get an earful of ****.

Which is appropriate, because people who do that are themselves full of ****.

[Aldramelech]

I wonder how people would react if I talked down to people who enjoyed painting but hate gaming... apparently it's okay to talk down to gamers, but oh, if you DARE say ANYTHING about painters, you get an earful of ****.

Which is appropriate, because people who do that are themselves full of ****.

Does this mean your not going to be my Prom date?

[HsojVvad]

If a 40 year old man asked me why I hadn't fully painted my army I was say:

"YOUR A VIRGIN ARN'T YOU?"

If he continuied to anoy me i'd ask him

"DO YOU STILL LIVE WITH YOUR MUM?"

Were he to fail to back down I would suggest that

"BEING GOOD AT PLAYING WITH LITTLE MEN DOES NOT MASK FAILURE AT LIFE"

Charlie

LMFAO :D This is good, thanks for the laugh.


On topic: can we all agree that politely refusing to play someone who hasn't painted their army is acceptable as long as it is done in a polite and respectful manner? Can we all agree that the blokes in the Original Post come off as jerks and are not representative of LOADS of decent and pleasant players out there? Lastly, can we all agree that we all bring different wants and needs to this hobby of ours? Maybe I've missed something, but I don't think Alramelech has contradicted any of those things that seem so basic to me. Anyhoo... good gaming to all... cheers... Copeland

That is so true, but in the OP, the person decided on his own free will to play the game, and even encouraged the person to play, so he had NO right to berate him and talk down to him and insult him.

Even if he refused to play him, he had no right to say what he said.

No wander most people think of gamers as 40 year old virgins who live at home, and most likely never shower either.

[Bean]

On topic: can we all agree that politely refusing to play someone who hasn't painted their army is acceptable as long as it is done in a polite and respectful manner? Can we all agree that the blokes in the Original Post come off as jerks and are not representative of LOADS of decent and pleasant players out there? Lastly, can we all agree that we all bring different wants and needs to this hobby of ours? Maybe I've missed something, but I don't think Alramelech has contradicted any of those things that seem so basic to me. Anyhoo... good gaming to all... cheers... Copeland

I would be willing to bet that just about everyone would accept this eminently reasonable and moderate position.

Some of us just like to take more extreme positions so that we have something to argue about. =P

[TSINI]

to the OP, whilst i do prefer both armies to be fully painted, its not a requirement. its a luxury. the only reason some people on the forums get a little irate with unpainted armies is that it can show that the person is more interested in playing the game (and ispo facto, playing to win), than enjoying the hobby as a whole.

again, this is a generalisation and as you point out, beginners will naturally have an unpainted army - which says nothing about them other than they are beginners.

Requiring all armies to be 100% painted is a lunatic's dream. i have over 4000 points of guard, mostly guardsmen, this will take an age to paint up, and i see it as a hobby, not a chore that "must be completed before venturing into the gaming scene" - that said, i have made great strides to paint up everything i use regularly (although my friends will know i have no tracks on any of my tanks :rolleyes:)

[klinesmith]

I'm glad this generated a lot of discussion but at the end of it all I remain unconvinced of the necessity of a painted army. Arguments such as:

it's part of the hobby
they look good
its insulting to someone who does paint
etc etc

are nothing more than subjective statements attempting (weakly) to be masked as fact. No, there is no rule stating you must play someone if they offer. Yes, you can choose to deny a game based upon whatever standards you have. The simple point and premise that I have found as a new player on this forums and many others now is simply this:

The now labeled Hobby Stalins make the unbelievably and completely unsupported case that the players who are uninterested in painting only have arguments based upon teeth-gnashing and chest thumping. The irony is that these players are so caught up in their own idea of what the game must be that they simply refuse to actually step and look at the whole argument which can be summed up as follows:

You don't like to paint, so don't.

And

You don't like to paint, don't play.

There is absolutely no reason at all to follow the latter crowd. As was stated in a previous page I would love to see a shop where it is commonplace for players without painted armies to refuse to play players with painted armies.

I'm glad I have now found the side of the fence that makes sense, rather than the side that engages in defamation and flaming of the player who chooses to disagree with their philosophy of the hobby. Just because a player states they don't think painting is necessary doesn't mean that they begrudge you for painting. Vice versa, I suppose, but judging from this thread and many others that's not the actual belief on the flip side of the coin.

[Lord Azaghul]

To bad. Painting is part of the hobby. You just sound like you're making excusing to not paint.

I don't mind playing folk who are assembling their army learning to play, or just bought some new models or whatever, I don’t care if only one or two models is painted a month, at least some people are trying. Quit frankly I’m buying crap all the time and my armies aren’t always fully painted but if you NEVER paint; you’re just plan lazy and shouldn’t be part of this hobby. If you just want to game, go play a video game, or a board game.

[Nabterayl]

If you just want to game, go play a video game, or a board game.
That seems kind of disingenuous, Azaghul. What do we say to the people who collect and paint perpetually but never play? That they're not allowed to do that, because gaming is part of the hobby?

[klinesmith]

To bad. Painting is part of the hobby. You just sound like you're making excusing to not paint.

I don't mind playing folk who are assembling their army learning to play, or just bought some new models or whatever, I don’t care if only one or two models is painted a month, at least some people are trying. Quit frankly I’m buying crap all the time and my armies aren’t always fully painted but if you NEVER paint; you’re just plan lazy and shouldn’t be part of this hobby. If you just want to game, go play a video game, or a board game.

If you read the previous posts I stated clearly that it is my favorite aspect of the hobby. The difference between my (future) self and many of the painting elitists is that I recognize it as an aspect that I enjoy and by no means assume they should subscribe to my particular mandate.

You are exactly the kind of player I am speaking of when I talk about how I formed my opinion. The bolded proves the point.

[Aldramelech]

That seems kind of disingenuous, Azaghul. What do we say to the people who collect and paint perpetually but never play? That they're not allowed to do that, because gaming is part of the hobby?

Nope. Shout "Your Weird!" poke your tongue out and run.........

You do have a point though. But so does Azaghul.

Those that can/will, do. Those that cant/wont, dont. Its that simple and we aint ever gonna agree, the two sides despite having a common interest and sharing the same hobby are worlds apart.

[Lord Azaghul]

That seems kind of disingenuous, Azaghul. What do we say to the people who collect and paint perpetually but never play? That they're not allowed to do that, because gaming is part of the hobby?

Consider it more of a responce to his, and I paraphrase: you'll all stupid for telling me I should be painting.

However, I would say (and we already know that the starter of this thread could care less):

That all the other aspects of the hobby, IE painting, collecting, building, converting, are must more, ‘part of the hobby’ then playing the game. To focus on the least creative aspect of the hobby is a detriment to his/her own enrichment.
If someone want to show up once a week and talk painting techniques; cool, I’m sure they have something to teach me. We can chat about fluff and what not too.
Some guy who shows up every freaking week, never paints, doesn’t fully assemble his/her models…I’m tired of it, and after a while I don’t want to play ‘those guys’ If you’re not going to paint, at least pay someone else to paint. And if you too lazy to paint, just admit it.

[Nabterayl]

That all the other aspects of the hobby, IE painting, collecting, building, converting, are must more, ‘part of the hobby’ then playing the game. To focus on the least creative aspect of the hobby is a detriment to his/her own enrichment.


Its that simple and we aint ever gonna agree, the two sides despite having a common interest and sharing the same hobby are worlds apart.
I hear what you guys are saying, but it seems like you're responding to a situation that hasn't actually obtained in the thread. As the OP said, he loves painting - this isn't one of those guys who never paints.

That said, I have to admit your guys' attitude (at least as I understand it) confuses me. Like you said, Aldramech, we have a common interest and share the same hobby - what does it gain Azaghul to label somebody "lazy" because he doesn't want to paint, or to tell other people that they're harming their own enrichment? That seems as silly to me as telling people they're lazy because they haven't bothered to learn the universe's fluff, or because they've been playing 40K for twenty years and still haven't learned any tactics.

They aren't lazy. They just don't think that's fun.


Some guy who shows up every freaking week, never paints, doesn’t fully assemble his/her models…I’m tired of it, and after a while I don’t want to play ‘those guys’ If you’re not going to paint, at least pay someone else to paint. And if you too lazy to paint, just admit it.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but where I come from, "lazy" is pejorative. I don't see the point in crossing from "I'd rather not play you, thanks" to insults.

[DarkLink]

Those that can/will, do. Those that cant/wont, dont. Its that simple and we aint ever gonna agree, the two sides despite having a common interest and sharing the same hobby are worlds apart.

Why do we have to disagree in the first place? We each have our own, potentially different, parts of the hobby that we like. If we respect that, there's no need for conflict or disagreement.



They aren't lazy. They just don't think that's fun.


Right. Believe it or not, some people actually have these things call lives, in which they engage in various other activities that are far, far more important, and sometimes even far more fun, than playing with small pieces of metal and plastic.

If someone calls me lazy because I haven't finished fully painting my armies, I'll respond with something to the effect of "you still live in your mom's basement, don't you".

[Melissia]

However, I would say (and we already know that the starter of this thread could care less):

That all the other aspects of the hobby, IE painting, collecting, building, converting, are must more, ‘part of the hobby’ then playing the game.

And unless you apply that definition solely to yourself, you are inevitably going to be dead wrong.

[Nabterayl]

Right. Believe it or not, some people actually have these things call lives, in which they engage in various other activities that are far, far more important, and sometimes even far more fun, than playing with small pieces of metal and plastic.
That's true, but it's not quite the point I was making. It takes many hours to paint an army to even a basic standard. This might lead one to believe that somebody who wasn't willing to put in those hours was lazy.

But it also takes many hours to become conversant with the fluff of the universe. Is somebody lazy who isn't willing to put in those hours? Maybe - or maybe they just don't find it fun. I would be disinclined to call somebody with a brilliantly painted army but no ability to have an informed fluff discussion lazy.

It takes many hours to learn how to play 40K well, and many more to progress from being a good 40K player to being a good tactician. Is somebody lazy who isn't willing to put in those hours? Maybe - or maybe they just don't find it fun. If somebody has a brilliantly painted army but is a terrible 40K player, and whose many 40K games have not given him any tactical skills that translate beyond the game system, I would be disinclined to call that person lazy.

And yet, if somebody has put in the many hours to become conversant with the fluff, or the many hours to become a good 40K player or a good tactician, and does not have a painted army, shall we call that person lazy? I shan't.

[Melissia]

I spend far more time in Dark Heresy than I do in 40k these days. I've GMed games, and I am a player in several. I put a TON of time and effort into it. If someone wants to claim I'm lazy for not painting, I'll point out that they're lazy for not putting hours and hours on end into roleplaying out the fluff and creating stories.

Neither of them are true... you aren't lazy. You're dedicated to whatever part of the hobby you enjoy, given the amount of time you have to enjoy it, and the amount of money you're able and willing to spend on the hobby (technically one is ABLE to spend a lot more money on the hobby if one wants to cut out a lot of things in life like cable TV, internet, phone service, various types of insurance, automobile gas, heating / air conditioning one's home, paying rent, etc, but are you really going to accuse someone of being lazy by not doing this?).

[Lord Azaghul]

I'm glad this generated a lot of discussion but at the end of it all I remain unconvinced of the necessity of a painted army. Arguments such as:

it's part of the hobby
they look good
its insulting to someone who does paint
etc etc

are nothing more than subjective statements attempting (weakly) to be masked as fact. No, there is no rule stating you must play someone if they offer. Yes, you can choose to deny a game based upon whatever standards you have. The simple point and premise that I have found as a new player on this forums and many others now is simply this:

The now labeled Hobby Stalins make the unbelievably and completely unsupported case that the players who are uninterested in painting only have arguments based upon teeth-gnashing and chest thumping. The irony is that these players are so caught up in their own idea of what the game must be that they simply refuse to actually step and look at the whole argument which can be summed up as follows:

You don't like to paint, so don't.

And

You don't like to paint, don't play.

There is absolutely no reason at all to follow the latter crowd. As was stated in a previous page I would love to see a shop where it is commonplace for players without painted armies to refuse to play players with painted armies.

I'm glad I have now found the side of the fence that makes sense, rather than the side that engages in defamation and flaming of the player who chooses to disagree with their philosophy of the hobby. Just because a player states they don't think painting is necessary doesn't mean that they begrudge you for painting. Vice versa, I suppose, but judging from this thread and many others that's not the actual belief on the flip side of the coin.

Here is the attitude I was responding to. The arguement he's presenting is that exact one he's arguing against.

My statements: painting is part of the hobby. If you won't want to paint, this is the WRONG hobby for you.
Painted armies enhance the hobby.

If you don't want to paint: don't. But don't pretend that you have some high and mighty ideal for not painting. Just stick with Mel's statements on that: I don't like to paint.
And that's fine, I won't want to play you after a while, but don't make the argument that people, by asking you to paint, are trying to tell you how to behave when you won't even consider or acknowledge their favorate aspects of the hobby.

Most of my feeling come from playing 40k tourneys where I see the same unpainted, unassembled models time after time, and for whatever reason most of the these tourneys don't acknowledge painting as a part of the hobby, its simply: win, win, win.

And please don't assume that I'm annoyed because I've been losing game, because frankly I don't lose very often. BUT: one of my favorate things about this hobby and the most satisfying, is to play an exciting bloody game with two fully painted armies. It just seems like the need to 'win' gets in the way of very other aspect of this hobby.

[Melissia]

My statements: painting is part of the hobby. If you won't want to paint, this is the WRONG hobby for you.

And that is why we are saying you are being stupid. Don't try and bring my posts to support yours, I don't support your idiotic statements. I have very clearly, repeatedly, consistently, and quite very strongly stated my opinion that:

Painting is nothing more than an unimportant fringe aspect of 40k.

The difference is that I'm smart enough to say "to me" instead of trying to argue the stupidity you're putting in the quoted section of your post.

[HsojVvad]

To bad. Painting is part of the hobby. You just sound like you're making excusing to not paint.

I don't mind playing folk who are assembling their army learning to play, or just bought some new models or whatever, I don’t care if only one or two models is painted a month, at least some people are trying. Quit frankly I’m buying crap all the time and my armies aren’t always fully painted but if you NEVER paint; you’re just plan lazy and shouldn’t be part of this hobby. If you just want to game, go play a video game, or a board game.

Hey guys, look at this guy. Here is a geek and or nerd trying to tell us what to do. Why do geeks and or nerds have to act like they are sport jocks in highschool? Do you really have that much of a complex that you have to tell someone else how to play with plastic toy soldiers?

Either paint or go play video games? Wow, Just Wow. You are so tough.

I am starting to see what 40K or GW hobby is all about. It's all about us geeks, nerds, or as my teenage daughter says "loosers". (she is in the "in" crowd at school). So playing GW or 40K is like being a sport jock in high school. Those that are beneath the sport jock get picked on. So now the 40K or GW player is picking on anyone else they think is beneath them.

You should have seen the look of my daughter when I told her how alot of people on the forums here think that you need to paint, and model and have WYSIWYG.

Do you guys know that most of the world thinks us of as geeks, and nerds, and loosers who don't shower and live under our parents basements?

Ok you win. Next person who says that you have to have a painted army or WYSIWYG, I will proclaim that you are a better Geek and or Nerd and LOOSER than me.

Will that make you feel better now? Come on, let everyone enjoy thier hobby thier own way. You don't like it, don't play them, but never tell them how or what to do with this hobby.

If you, all you are saying is you are a better LOOSER than them. So there you go. Since I do not pain all my minis, and since I play with proxies with my little toy soldiers, I am not as a great looser as others on the forum, or says so my cool daughter.

If it makes you cool because you can paint and have everything WYSIWYG, I will go with someone else who is "cool" and go with thier opnion. I just laughed when she calls me a geek and looser, but I am not such a big geek and looser as others on this forum. :D

Geez I feel better now. My daughter told me I am not the biggest geek or looser anymore.

Thank you very much. :p

[Aldramelech]

Why do we have to disagree in the first place? We each have our own, potentially different, parts of the hobby that we like. If we respect that, there's no need for conflict or disagreement.

Way of the world. Why dont the Greek Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church get on?

[Lord Azaghul]

And that is why we are saying you are being stupid. Don't try and bring my posts to support yours, I don't support your idiotic statements. I have very clearly, repeatedly, consistently, and quite very strongly stated my opinion that:

Painting is nothing more than an unimportant fringe aspect of 40k.

The difference is that I'm smart enough to say "to me" instead of trying to argue the stupidity you're putting in the quoted section of your post.

Alright idiot. First off I wasn't even referencing our post. I happend to me typing my response while you posted yours.

I ws refering to your well known 'I don't like to paint' statements.

unbelieveable.

[Aldramelech]

Hey guys, look at this guy. Here is a geek and or nerd trying to tell us what to do. Why do geeks and or nerds have to act like they are sport jocks in highschool? Do you really have that much of a complex that you have to tell someone else how to play with plastic toy soldiers?

Either paint or go play video games? Wow, Just Wow. You are so tough.

I am starting to see what 40K or GW hobby is all about. It's all about us geeks, nerds, or as my teenage daughter says "loosers". (she is in the "in" crowd at school). So playing GW or 40K is like being a sport jock in high school. Those that are beneath the sport jock get picked on. So now the 40K or GW player is picking on anyone else they think is beneath them.

You should have seen the look of my daughter when I told her how alot of people on the forums here think that you need to paint, and model and have WYSIWYG.

Do you guys know that most of the world thinks us of as geeks, and nerds, and loosers who don't shower and live under our parents basements?

Ok you win. Next person who says that you have to have a painted army or WYSIWYG, I will proclaim that you are a better Geek and or Nerd and LOOSER than me.

Will that make you feel better now? Come on, let everyone enjoy thier hobby thier own way. You don't like it, don't play them, but never tell them how or what to do with this hobby.

If you, all you are saying is you are a better LOOSER than them. So there you go. Since I do not pain all my minis, and since I play with proxies with my little toy soldiers, I am not as a great looser as others on the forum, or says so my cool daughter.

If it makes you cool because you can paint and have everything WYSIWYG, I will go with someone else who is "cool" and go with thier opnion. I just laughed when she calls me a geek and looser, but I am not such a big geek and looser as others on this forum. :D

Geez I feel better now. My daughter told me I am not the biggest geek or looser anymore.

Thank you very much. :p


Well that was grown up. :rolleyes:

[Melissia]

Alright idiot. First off I wasn't even referencing our post. I happend to me typing my response while you posted yours.
And I was saying don't use ANY of my posts to support your ideas in any way shape or form, because I think your ideas are a hideous abomination to the hobby, ideas with which I do not want to even TANGENTALLY be associated with. Elitism is one of the biggest problems in this hobby today, and I will give no respect to people who consistently show that they are elitists because they deserve none. Elitism causes nothing but problems, and expressions of it do not get even neutral responses from me.

[Nabterayl]

Most of my feeling come from playing 40k tourneys where I see the same unpainted, unassembled models time after time, and for whatever reason most of the these tourneys don't acknowledge painting as a part of the hobby, its simply: win, win, win.
Fair enough, I can see how that would get on your nerves. It's definitely not the only reason to have mostly unpainted armies, though. In my gaming group about half of us are mostly unpainted, and one of our players only has a painted army because his wife decided to do it for him as a way to participate in the hobby. Of the others, some of us are too busy writing stories about the interactions of our various armies, and one guy is even too busy making awesome conversions.

The thing is, the "high and mighty ideal" for painting is, "I don't like to paint." I don't get the jump between "I don't like to paint" and "you're lazy."

[HsojVvad]

Well that was grown up. :rolleyes:

Well just as grown up someone saying how you have to play 40K.;)


... because I think your ideas are a hideous abomination to the hobby, ideas with which I do not want to even TANGENTALLY be associated with. Elitism is one of the biggest problems in this hobby today, and I will give no respect to people who consistently show that they are elitists because they deserve none. Elitism causes nothing but problems, ...

Very well said.

[Lerra]

I don't understand the jump from "you have unpainted models" to "you're lazy" either.

I enjoy painting, and I set aside as much time for painting/gaming as is practical. Telling me that I'm lazy because I haven't painted all of my models is like telling me that I'm lazy because I don't spend enough time playing World of Warcraft.

Even with unlimited time, I doubt I'll ever have a fully painted army because I buy models faster than I can paint. For every model that I paint, I add three more ideas to the docket of stuff I'd like to do someday.

To me, the hobby aspect of 40k is the act of building and painting, not just having a finished army that sits in a box all the time.

[klinesmith]

I don't understand the jump from "you have unpainted models" to "you're lazy" either.

I enjoy painting, and I set aside as much time for painting/gaming as is practical. Telling me that I'm lazy because I haven't painted all of my models is like telling me that I'm lazy because I don't spend enough time playing World of Warcraft.

Even with unlimited time, I doubt I'll ever have a fully painted army because I buy models faster than I can paint. For every model that I paint, I add three more ideas to the docket of stuff I'd like to do someday.

To me, the hobby aspect of 40k is the act of building and painting, not just having a finished army that sits in a box all the time.

That is exactly my point. Where do players like this Lord A cultivate the idea that our time should be spent their way regardless of external factors? These are the very same externals that they can in no way possibly conceive. Yet they spit their bile on anyone who disagrees for any reason.

I'm glad they play as I like the idea of more players. It's just an utter disappointment that they blindly believe their own philosophy to be better than others. Whereas there are many painters who believe in the importance of painting they don't all begrudge anyone with different priorities.

The latter are a far better version of the former.

Again I will paint my armies and love it. I won't spew vitriol at those who don't.


Also: Bolded

[klinesmith]

Here is the attitude I was responding to. The arguement he's presenting is that exact one he's arguing against.

My statements: painting is part of the hobby. If you won't want to paint, this is the WRONG hobby for you.
Painted armies enhance the hobby.

If you don't want to paint: don't. But don't pretend that you have some high and mighty ideal for not painting. Just stick with Mel's statements on that: I don't like to paint.
And that's fine, I won't want to play you after a while, but don't make the argument that people, by asking you to paint, are trying to tell you how to behave when you won't even consider or acknowledge their favorate aspects of the hobby.

Most of my feeling come from playing 40k tourneys where I see the same unpainted, unassembled models time after time, and for whatever reason most of the these tourneys don't acknowledge painting as a part of the hobby, its simply: win, win, win.

And please don't assume that I'm annoyed because I've been losing game, because frankly I don't lose very often. BUT: one of my favorate things about this hobby and the most satisfying, is to play an exciting bloody game with two fully painted armies. It just seems like the need to 'win' gets in the way of very other aspect of this hobby.

I'm at the point now where I understand that repeatedly crushing your illogical nonsense is not going to effect you. I can only be thankful there are not more players like you claiming a hobby must be taken tothe fullest extent of your own belief.

If you want me to lay idiotic, nonsensical, straw man, drivel logic that you seem to consistently represent for other aspects of your life I urge you to please, please tell me the rest of your hobbies so I can grind you down with your own archaic philosophy.

I can only weep for your children and the hell you will bring on them when they engage in a sport or extra-curricular activity and you beat their love of said event out of them with your belief of how they must absolutely dedicate themselves to every little nuance of the event.

[Melissia]

Meh, I still have like 80+ Orks to paint, nevermind the bikers (The dreads were the easiest, being vehicles and thus having no skin or faces to paint). Screw you if you think I'm gonna wait until I'm done to play them. I don't buy the army to paint it, I buy it to ****ING PLAY THE *******ED GAME.

*sits down and whimpers, realizing she really does have 80+ Orks to paint still*

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

man, I prefer painted armies but I dont really care if the other persons is or isnt. Sure its better to play a beautiful army, but everyone likes this hobby for different reasons and I for one respect that. I know some people like me are more into the fluff/converting ect and others more hardcore tournement. So for me I just go with an "each to their own" attitude.

That said, I would play anyone as long as they had a cool attitude and those guys you came across did not and I would rather play you with your mostly unpainted army a million times more than those asshats you dealt with.

[chromedog]

Sounds like the guys in the OP would have a better game if they removed the stick from their butts first.

While I won't personally play with an unpainted army (hell, I don't even FIELD unpainted units) and I get more enjoyment from a game with two painted and well-converted armies - it's not a mindset I expect everyone else to have.

To the OP: Find out if you have any alternate venues and go there. If not, you have my sympathies. Dicks like this don't do any hobby any favours - and unfortunately, EVERY hobby has them.

[BuFFo]

unbelieveable.

LOL...

Welcome to last year.

[DarkLink]

Alright idiot.

It's one thing to call someone's opinion stupid. But do not start openly throwing insults around.


I'm at the point now where I understand that repeatedly crushing your illogical nonsense is not going to effect you.

On this note, I recently read an interesting article about anosognosics. Essentially, it's the principle that an incompetent person is incapable of realizing that they are incompetent, because the skills that allow them to realize they are making a bad decision are the same ones that would lead them to make the correct decision in the first place.

Not that I want to call anyone incompetent, but a person who thinks it is acceptable to force their views and opinions on others will probably not realize why it's wrong to do so, because if they did, they wouldn't do it in the first place.

[Jwolf]

There are several instances of namecalling and insulting in this thread, and it goes in a lot of directions. If you can't make a point without calling someone else a name or liberally piling on the insults, you don't actually have a point.

[DarkLink]

In fact, on that note, I don't think I can add anything productive to this thread. I've made my opinion on the matter as clear as I can. If I haven't convinced someone else to change their mind, I won't be able to unless they independently shift their views on the matter.

[BlacknightIII]

Meh, I still have like 80+ Orks to paint, nevermind the bikers (The dreads were the easiest, being vehicles and thus having no skin or faces to paint). Screw you if you think I'm gonna wait until I'm done to play them. I don't buy the army to paint it, I buy it to ****ING PLAY THE *******ED GAME.

*sits down and whimpers, realizing she really does have 80+ Orks to paint still*

I agree 110%.

*grumbles and continues to paint the endless mass of gaunts on his desk.*

[Hyperion]

It's one thing to call someone's opinion stupid. But do not start openly throwing insults around.



On this note, I recently read an interesting article about anosognosics. Essentially, it's the principle that an incompetent person is incapable of realizing that they are incompetent, because the skills that allow them to realize they are making a bad decision are the same ones that would lead them to make the correct decision in the first place.

Not that I want to call anyone incompetent, but a person who thinks it is acceptable to force their views and opinions on others will probably not realize why it's wrong to do so, because if they did, they wouldn't do it in the first place.

Over here we generally call them 'managers' or 'team leaders'

[DarkLink]

Over here we generally call them 'managers' or 'team leaders'

Heh, of course that depends on whether or not you believe in the Dilbert Principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dilbert_Principle) or the Peter Principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle). Man, I love Dilbert.

[Cossack]

You are exactly the kind of player I am speaking of when I talk about how I formed my opinion. The bolded proves the point.

And the bolded point was about being lazy if you don't paint.

And that's my opinion as well.

There is NO EXCUSE for not painting your army. None. That is why some people react negatively to unpainted figures - it's insulting. They put in the time and effort and somehow are supposed to smile and ignore the fact that you didn't.

How can somebody be too busy to paint, but not too busy to buy the figures, glue them together, read the rules, read the codexes, make army lists, play games, post on the forums and do whatever else is hobby related...but yet there is no time to apply a paint brush to a pot of paint and then to a figure.

Nope, it's laziness. It's a case of "I don't want to do it because I don't like it and I don't have to so you're a jerk if you don't like it."

I'm an elitist too.

[DarkLink]

Nope, it's laziness. It's a case of "I don't want to do it because I don't like it and I don't have to so you're a jerk if you don't like it."

Actually, I know quite a few people where it's a case of "I actually have a life, and family, and a job, and far more important things to spend time on".

You're looking at this completely wrong. You say there's no reason not to paint your army (which is patently false). In reality, there is absolutely no reason that you must, unquestionably and unconditionally, spend hours and hours, or even minutes, painting. In fact, the only two reasons to do so is 1) because you enjoy painting, or 2) because someone is forcing you to paint. And no one can force you to follow reason 2.

I don't care if you find it insulting that I haven't fully painted my army. Get over yourself. This isn't all about you, as much as you seem to want think it is.

I play this hobby because I like it. It's something I do in my free time, for pure enjoyment. There is absolutely no conceivable reason that you somehow have the right to demand that I do something to satisfy your selfish demands.



I'm an elitist too.

Yeah... that's not a good thing. The attitude you seem to be displaying is that you are better than everyone who doesn't share your opinion. That's the only explanation that I can think of for you completely unreasonable opinion on all this. And if you can look at your own attitude objectively and still somehow think that you are right to defend your position... well, then I guess you're suffering from a major case of anosognosia. Just apply a little reductio ad absurdum to your logic, and it quickly becomes apparent that your attitude is completely baseless.



In fact, this isn't even really about painting. My armies are, for the most part, fully painted, and painted to a reasonable quality.

No, this is about who gets to decide what I spend my time doing. I, and I alone, have that right. You do not. Do not pretend you do. Do not be so presumptuous as to think that you can dictate to me not just what I spend my time doing, but what I enjoy as well. You. Do. Not. Have. That. Right.

[Cossack]

I've been in this hobby 30 years. Painted figures is what it is all about. How many countless hobbies are there that don't require painted figures?

And there's no such thing as having time to everything else EXCEPT put paint on figures. And once you actually have a painted army, you should use it while you work on other figures.

What you do in your house with your friends is your business. But when I go to a local hobby shop for a pickup game, it's attitudes like this that ruin the experience. Most of my friends don't even bother fighting the issue so you never see them....which means your type is running off the very players I want to find. That's why it's an issue.

Keep the unpainted crap out of public games and stop making excuses. Raise your own standards for once - it's easy, just care enough to do it.

[BuFFo]

I've been in this hobby 30 years. Painted figures is what it is all about. How many countless hobbies are there that don't require painted figures?

And there's no such thing as having time to everything else EXCEPT put paint on figures. And once you actually have a painted army, you should use it while you work on other figures.

What you do in your house with your friends is your business. But when I go to a local hobby shop for a pickup game, it's attitudes like this that ruin the experience. Most of my friends don't even bother fighting the issue so you never see them....which means your type is running off the very players I want to find. That's why it's an issue.

Keep the unpainted crap out of public games and stop making excuses. Raise your own standards for once - it's easy, just care enough to do it.

My friends and I don't paint our armies, and you are right to stay away from 'our types'. When we go into a game store, we make it our lifes duty to run people who paint their armies out of the store and out of the hobby.

You are such a tool, it is amazing.

But hey, don't get mad at me for insulting you, I mean, this is how 'our type' acts, right?

Now get your painted armies off my tables.

Grrrrrrrrr!!!!!

[Cossack]

You bully!

[Melissia]

I'm an elitist too.

You might as well have said "I'm a malignant tumor" instead.

[Freefall945]

I've been in this hobby 30 years. Painted figures is what it is all about. How many countless hobbies are there that don't require painted figures?

And there's no such thing as having time to everything else EXCEPT put paint on figures. And once you actually have a painted army, you should use it while you work on other figures.

What you do in your house with your friends is your business. But when I go to a local hobby shop for a pickup game, it's attitudes like this that ruin the experience. Most of my friends don't even bother fighting the issue so you never see them....which means your type is running off the very players I want to find. That's why it's an issue.

Keep the unpainted crap out of public games and stop making excuses. Raise your own standards for once - it's easy, just care enough to do it.

While I'm a card carrying member of team "Paint your stuff", the time may be now to draw down your rhetoric, Cossack.

I enjoy painting against painted armies both because the amount of effort one has sunk into their army is visible in the product, and also because painting lends itself to the perculiar brand of immersion that we experience as gamers. It's not immersion per se; I'd be very surprised if anyone forgot, for a moment, that they are not infact Commander Counts As Vulkan of the Supermarines, leading their brothers into the battle - but all the pictures of this hobby, the ones that made me go "whoa, I want to play this" are elaborately painted, converted, assembled, themed armies 'zerking into each other over genuinely modeled terrain. Anything one does to bring that pseudo-immersion to the fore gives me smiley points.

But being annoyed by how someone else enjoys the hobby is irrational, whether you're enraged that that guy won't play with your Proxy-Nids, or scornful of that girl because every week she brings more unpainted models to the field.

We have a divide between those of us who are Pro-Paint, and those of us who are Pro-Game, but it's important that above all we are universally Pro-Fun.

[MarshalAdamar]

Well, I guess I'll chime in why not.

I've got one foot in both camps. First the two guys at the game store should be freakin banned. That kind of behavior is inexcusable. There is no defense for bad manners. You told them you were new and they were apparently to dim to understand that the odds were going to be pretty good that your army was unpainted.

I would have been happy to play the game with you. Usually for new people I don’t play win at all costs either. I make decisions partially based on what will expose the new player to a new rule so they can see how the game mechanics work; we throw dice and have a grand ol’ time.

So forget them, there are plenty of other players who will not be insulted by your lack of paint (and here’s the caveat) “For a while”

People with chronically unpainted armies do bug me. You got into this hobby, you knew what it was and want it entails when you did = buying, assembling and PAINTING models.

So new guys, no problem, even some unpainted models and proxies while you work on the painting and buying GREAT! After 6 months of green army men representing your psyker battle squad and their green tank standing in for your LR demolisher in your all base grey plastic army. (COUGH!) Get with it. Either Buy, Build, Paint or get out of the hobby.

PART of the hobby is painting, and I do enjoy a game with a NICE player with a painted army more than the same game with an opponent with an unpainted army.

If I was a custom car guy and all the cool custom cars hung out at parking lot and you kept showing up to run the time trials with your stock, slightly rusty 85’ Honda Accord hatch back and you never put any money or time into it to show that you were working on it people would want you to stop coming to the parking lot.

I think there’s a middle ground, were I like it that people like the same hobby I do, and I can totally understand not having a painted army for a while. But to try and show up week after week with the same unpainted army IS a little insulting. And it doesn’t take much (for me) to be content that your working on it. Slap some primer on them and I’m good, there’s progress. Next week when you come in have a painted HQ and maybe a tank; SOMETHING that tells me that you actually like the hobby (no the hobby is NOT assembling bare plastic models) its painting too so paint.

Bottom line though is that we’re all in it to have fun and I think that everyone has a little more fun when both armies are painted.

[HsojVvad]

Sad just sad. Again time and time again people say you don't want to play painted armies, then don't play them. But please do not tell people how the hobby is suppose to be played?

Where is this codex or bible on how playing with plastic toys are suppose to be? Where does it say we have to paint? Where does it say we have to have 3 or more colours on the miniture? Where does it say it has to be flocked?

If the mini is suppose to be painted what is the standard? What if it's painted crap, like mine because my painting skills are not good. Sometimes it's better off not painted than painted in my case.

Again, Cossack if you do not like unpainted armies fine, do not play them. Do not tell us what we should be doing in our times not playing the game. You have no right telling us we have to paint as we have no right telling you that you can't paint your miniatures.

Maybe this thread needs to be locked now, because for one, I refuse to be told from anyone telling me what I have to or how to in this hobby. I will not stop argueing about this, and I can see I am not alone either. Yes it's easier to ignore comments, but this is one of the comments that I will not ignore, or let anyone voice thier opnion without proof. So far no proof has been proven that you have to have painted minis.

Yes it is preffered that the minis are painted, but it is not mandatory that the minis are painted.

[Renegade]

Some people take this whole thing far to seriouly. While its nie to play against another fully painted army, its good just to get a game and better still if the other dude is playing for the same reasons, to have a fun game.

I know people that just haven't the time, like one dude who's a teacher.

The OP should have walked off and tried to get a game against some else, but should probably go again and avoid those players, they probably wouldn't be looking for a fun game any ways, but thought "new guy, easy meat!" or would have rules lawyered all over the place.

Just to add, there is playing to win, and then there is WAAC. WAAC players should ban themselves or be banned from most gaming communities.

[BuFFo]

Just for the record, Cossack, I totally respect your opinion. I also respect your ability to speak your mind.

[Cossack]

Thanks Buffo.

I came by to post about a game I played today at the local shop. This game was the ONLY game with 100% painted figures and terrain. A young couple wandered in to look around and were immediately drawn to my game. I asked why - because it looked good. They hung around a while, didn't buy anything, but we got names and invited them back anytime they wanted to try it out.

That's how you attract new players. Not with unpainted figures - you do it the right way. I've sold a lot of merchandise to people this way...it might be a mom who sees my game and buys the starter set for her son, or something similar.

It really is important to present the best possible game when playing in public. And I'll agree that sportsmanship is vital - screaming and yelling over rules (or unpainted figures) will drive bystanders right out.

[Melissia]

And want to know how to lose players?

By being an arrogant, elitist douchebag.

[DarkLink]

Yes it's easier to ignore comments, but this is one of the comments that I will not ignore, or let anyone voice thier opnion without proof. So far no proof has been proven that you have to have painted minis.


Heh, yeah, my comment that I didn't have anything to add didn't last long:rolleyes:.

Not only has no proof been given, but no reasonable logic behind the decision has, either. Why does one particular random person have the ability to dictate to others what part of the hobby they enjoy. And if you do claim that someone can do this to others, then what prevents others from doing the same to the original person? What makes them so special that they can command others as such?

The only real argument I've seen in support of the position is that it is somehow insulting to the other player, and that doesn't even make sense. Why should I be insulted that my opponent has a job that prevents him from spending time painting stuff? If I don't want to play an unpainted army, I won't. Simple as that. There's no reason to claim the other person was somehow offensive and wrong to have asked for a game. They have a right to play with whom they so desire, and I have a right to refuse if I feel like it.


Some people take this whole thing far to seriously. While its nice to play against another fully painted army, its good just to get a game and better still if the other dude is playing for the same reasons, to have a fun game.

I know people that just haven't the time, like one dude who's a teacher.

The OP should have walked off and tried to get a game against some else, but should probably go again and avoid those players, they probably wouldn't be looking for a fun game any ways, but thought "new guy, easy meat!" or would have rules lawyered all over the place.

Just to add, there is playing to win, and then there is WAAC. WAAC players should ban themselves or be banned from most gaming communities.

Right. We're here to have fun.

When you start acting superior to others because they don't share your opinion about how the game should be played, it's time for you to leave because you are doing nothing but ruining other people's fun. It doesn't matter if it's because you're a WAAC type, or a fluff ****, or a hobby stalinist. Your attitude is the problem, and it needs to go.

And I've bolded the important part for certain individuals who don't seem to understand that some people have real lives. There are things that take up their time that do not afford them the luxury of painting small pieces of plastic/metal. They don't have time. They really don't. I cannot overstate that. There are more important things in life, like eating, sleeping, family, jobs, wives, kids, school, and doing things you actually enjoy without being forced to do something.



While I'm a card carrying member of team "Paint your stuff", the time may be now to draw down your rhetoric, Cossack.

But being annoyed by how someone else enjoys the hobby is irrational, whether you're enraged that that guy won't play with your Proxy-Nids, or scornful of that girl because every week she brings more unpainted models to the field.

We have a divide between those of us who are Pro-Paint, and those of us who are Pro-Game, but it's important that above all we are universally Pro-Fun.

And want to know how to lose players?

By being an arrogant, elitist douchebag.

I'd suggest he read up on the Stop Having Fun Guys (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys) and the Scrub (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Scrub) articles on TV tropes, as well as the Fandumb one. While he isn't specifically either, he shares their attitude that their way is the only possible way to play the game.

It's a great way for him to ruin his opponent's fun, which is the real reason we are in the hobby. We're not here to paint, we're not here to play, we're not here for the fluff, we're here to have fun. That's it. And in no way, shape or form is having a fully painted army required for that.

[HsojVvad]

Thanks Buffo.

I came by to post about a game I played today at the local shop. This game was the ONLY game with 100% painted figures and terrain. A young couple wandered in to look around and were immediately drawn to my game. I asked why - because it looked good. They hung around a while, didn't buy anything, but we got names and invited them back anytime they wanted to try it out.

That's how you attract new players. Not with unpainted figures - you do it the right way. I've sold a lot of merchandise to people this way...it might be a mom who sees my game and buys the starter set for her son, or something similar.

It really is important to present the best possible game when playing in public. And I'll agree that sportsmanship is vital - screaming and yelling over rules (or unpainted figures) will drive bystanders right out.

What has this to do with selling minis? Do you own a store and sell stuff? For me or most others, we don't paint our minis to get other people into the hobby. That is GW job to do it, and they don't do a good enough job from what I see. But they must be doing something right because they are still around.

But that is here nor there. I do not like playing in public. So if I am playing at your house or you playing at my house no public will be seeing them.

I can understand where you are coming from, if you are trying to make money off this but selling minis yourself. But that is up to you to have a painted army just like GW does in it's stores, to entice people.

But we are not here talking about making money, but about having fun.

Likek you said, not good sportsmanship by screaming and yelling over rules. There is no rules about unpainted minis. We can all be polite about this, and now that you are being polite this conversation is becoming becoming better now.

[Cossack]

Here is the couple I mentioned....we had the only game that was fully painted - and they made a bee-line to us and stood there for several turns and didn't bother looking at any other game. This happens a lot.

http://mysite.verizon.net/krista.smith/07032010Naps25.JPG

[HsojVvad]

Yes I agree 2 painted armeis are beautiful to see, and I would love to play it like that myself, but I can understand not everyone can paint all their armies. I wouldn't make it a big deal if thier army wasn't painted.

Yes that is a lovely table there. But do you want some GW fanatic come to you and say well it's not all GW so you can't play on that table. Yo udon't have all GW dice, or you were not using all GW paint or glue or brushes or terrian or what ever.

Maybe I say you shouldn't be sitting down. Stop being lazy and stand up like the 2 other people are. How on Earth can you be sitting down? I never sit down when I play, so you shouldn't be sitting down either. What about the guy on the right? My god, look how disrespectful, he has a hat on. Don't you know you have to have your hat off as a sign of respect when you enter a building. Even if it's your own home, you should not be wearing a hat. How rude that person is.

And look at that guy sitting on the left. How dare he not have a smile. I guess he is not having fun on this beautiful table with beautifully painted minitures. Also why are the 2 peple sitting down not offering the lady a seat? How dare you be sitting while a woman is in the room, and she has to be standing?

See you or I should say the 2 people sitting down are breaking so many rules, where do we draw the line and stop complaining, and just start enjoying the game. While yes you have a beautiful table and minis, you also broke so many other rules that most people do not fallow anymore. But there is some people who are strictlers for these common rules of "decency" as they claim that should be abided by.

I bet you wouldn't want people telling you how to dress, and how to act now do you?

I am not trying to be mean, and I don't mean anythign I said here, but just giving options of what can be told about these people in the picture of what they are doing wrong. Saying minis have to be painted is like saying you should never be sitting down at a gaming event or having hats on inside a building.

[klinesmith]

Here is the couple I mentioned....we had the only game that was fully painted - and they made a bee-line to us and stood there for several turns and didn't bother looking at any other game. This happens a lot.



You know what works even better than a painted army? Being a generally friendly individual who has the personality to get people interested in the game.

You do not need painted models as a substitute for the former.

[Melissia]

Here is the couple I mentioned....we had the only game that was fully painted - and they made a bee-line to us and stood there for several turns and didn't bother looking at any other game. This happens a lot.
And you know what else happens a lot?

Arrogant elitist pricks scaring people away from the hobby.

[scadugenga]

Thanks Buffo.

That's how you attract new players. Not with unpainted figures - you do it the right way. I've sold a lot of merchandise to people this way...it might be a mom who sees my game and buys the starter set for her son, or something similar.


Gee.

While playing at the Bunker a few weeks back, a kid & his mom came by and watched a game a friend and I were playing. (Mech Eldar vs. Infantry Guard, not that it really matters.)

We slowed down the game and spent actual time talking with both the kid and his mom about the game, how it was played, and even how easy and (relatively) inexpensively you could start 40k. They went off to go shopping and we continued the game.

Guess what? My not-fully-painted army didn't stop them from being engaged and getting interested in the hobby.

Being sincerely interested in talking to them, and not being an elitist had much more of an impact than whether or not I had a fully painted army.

In the end, it all comes down to attitude.

[Melissia]

Indeed. Being an ***hole (which elitists are by default) does nothing to get people into the hobby.

[razcalking]

Indeed. Being an ***hole (which elitists are by default) does nothing to get people into the hobby.

Well, sure, but what does this have to do with painting vs not painting?

Most elitist jerks that I come across at the local game shop are the ultra-competitive, getting-ready-for-the-next-tournament players who don't want to take the time to talk to people who are new to the hobby. Some of them have painted armies, most of them don't.

The fully-painted I-do-this-as-a-hobby guys, on the other hand, are usually very willing to talk to new players.

[Melissia]

Well, sure, but what does this have to do with painting vs not painting?

Most elitist jerks that I come across at the local game shop are the ultra-competitive, getting-ready-for-the-next-tournament players who don't want to take the time to talk to people who are new to the hobby. Some of them have painted armies, most of them don't.

The fully-painted I-do-this-as-a-hobby guys, on the other hand, are usually very willing to talk to new players.
Read the conversation and you might figure it out, heh :P One person in particular in this thread that's being an elitist douchebag, by his own admission (indeed, he seems to think that it's a good thing), and he is the ONLY one that is. Not the gamers, whom are encouraging.

[Aldramelech]

The only real argument I've seen in support of the position is that it is somehow insulting to the other player, and that doesn't even make sense.

And I've bolded the important part for certain individuals who don't seem to understand that some people have real lives. There are things that take up their time that do not afford them the luxury of painting small pieces of plastic/metal. They don't have time. They really don't.

I have put forward arguments for playing with painted figures in this thread that have nothing to do with being insulted by other people not doing it.

I also have a "Real" life. I have a wife, a daughter, a job, bills to pay and other interests but I still turn out 1 or 2 fully painted armies a year. I MAKE the time to do this. The above are not excuses to not paint your figures, the reason why people don't paint their figures is because they don't want to. And thats fine, just don't be blaming your "life"


What has this to do with selling minis? Do you own a store and sell stuff? For me or most others, we don't paint our minis to get other people into the hobby. That is GW job to do it

That is so wrong. It is an essential job of any wargames club to promote the hobby. And has Cossack has rightly pointed out it is by showing the hobby at its best that we do this. But here is the problem as I see it.

We have two very different cultures here. The culture I come from is the Wargames Club. Wargames clubs are by and large stand alone organizations that do not meet in shops. They also play historical wargames more then GW and in historical's you do not play with unpainted figures. You will never see someone playing with an unpainted Napoleonic army, it is considered to be beyond the pale to do so. Wargames clubs have to promote the hobby to survive, historical wargaming does not promote itself in the way GW does, although with things like FOW that is changing (Ever seen someone playing with unpainted FOW? I haven't).
At wargames events clubs put on demonstration games or participation games and the competition to have the best looking one is fierce, this promotes the hobby and attracts new members. These events are organized by the clubs and not by any company, we take promoting the hobby very seriously. Google "Salute" run by the South London Warlords, the worlds biggest wargames show, run by a club, not a corporation to promote the hobby.

Then we have the GW/FLGS culture. You play in shops and you play largely GW. The average age is a lot lower here. You play pick up games whereas in the above culture we do not. You don't need to promote the hobby, your in a shop that is doing it for you. You attend events that usually have a business behind it somewhere. You have lots of tournament players, far more then the above culture. And it has become acceptable in your culture to play with unpainted and even half built armies. We don't have that luxury in the Wargames club, we need the spectacle to promote our hobby.

We have a member of our club who detests painting, is no good at it at all. He loves wargaming for rules. He writes his own (and he's very good at it) and has been a major contributor to many commercial sets. But even he would never dream of fielding an unpainted army. He likes to do large scale games in 6mm where his lack of painting skill is not so important and he can turn out large armies quickly.


Well, sure, but what does this have to do with painting vs not painting?

Most elitist jerks that I come across at the local game shop are the ultra-competitive, getting-ready-for-the-next-tournament players who don't want to take the time to talk to people who are new to the hobby. Some of them have painted armies, most of them don't.

The fully-painted I-do-this-as-a-hobby guys, on the other hand, are usually very willing to talk to new players.

100% Agreement. The Biggest (whatever Melissia's favorite insult is today) in this hobby that I have met tend to be people who are obsessed with tournaments, so much so that I do not take part in tournaments ever. I myself who has on several occasions made no secret of the fact that I will not play against unpainted figures will talk all day to anyone who shows an interest in the hobby. Because I'm from a culture where promoting the hobby is all. In fact I have to be careful that I reign in my enthusiasm as I can "bang on" a bit too much and have to recognize when someone is getting that "glazed" expression.
We promote the hobby and our hobby is playing wargames with painted figures.

What tends to happen in England is that people who like to paint their amries will sooner or later leave the GW/FLGS culture and join the Wargames club culture, so much so that it has now become almost the natural progression of a gamers life here.
Not my choice of words, but something along the lines of "You start at GW and when you mature you gravitate to the club"

[Renegade]

We promote the hobby and our hobby is playing wargames with painted figures

That maybe why you enjoy the hobby Aldramelech, but don't you dare think you speak for us all, or that you know what the hobby is about. They are lots of different aspects to this hobby, playing and painting are just a part of it.

Some people just like collecting armies, some enjoy the simple at of making plastic crack, for others its the fluff , for some its painting and others its playing, or a combination of any of those things or those I haven't thought of.

We all got in to Warhammer for varying reasons, it not for us to dictate the hobby to others.

Seriously lost respect for you dude, and you can take dude literally as to what I think of your opinion of our hobby.

Its a damned hobby, its all about we take what we enjoy from it!

[Cossack]

I'm confused about this concept that I'm somehow an ******* because I play with painted figures. Why would I put in the effort as well as welcome passers-by to the games and then act like a jerk to them? I think you're making something up about me.

This issue does affect me and my gaming experience....that's why I feel so strong about it. If it was JUST GW games that would be managable, but the 'disease' is infecting regular historical wargaming, like Flames of War and Lasalle. (WWII and Naps) When I go to the game store for a game and some guy shows up with white-primer Sherman tanks and expects to play in a game that I'm running...then we have an issue.

The way I deal with it is to point out the figures should be painted and loan the player my own stuff to use.

[Bean]

You're not an ******* because you play with painted figures, Cossack. You're an ******* because you consider the fact that some people don't to be a "disease."

Frankly, if you don't see how that makes you an *******, I'm not sure there's much hope for you as a person.

[HsojVvad]

I'm confused about this concept that I'm somehow an ******* because I play with painted figures. Why would I put in the effort as well as welcome passers-by to the games and then act like a jerk to them? I think you're making something up about me.



You are not an ******* because you play with painted figures, as Bean said, you are an ******* because you are telling us how the game must be played. If it's know your way we are beneath you and you are better than us.

So say those 2 people in the picture started to get into 40K or GW game, and come to play but don't paint thier armies for what ever reason? Now are they less of a person to begin with before they even got into the game? You have made some really some comments that we don't agree with, and when we disagree we are beneath you then. I wll go back and see what comment you have made that pissed us off and this is why we think you are an *******.

@ Aldramelech, I am suppose to promote the hobby? Are you kidding me? Maybe I should enlighted you about a man who lived 2000 years ago? Maybe I should be telling you how to fallow his ways? There is even a codex that encourges us that we should spread his word. There are other in fact say that we must spread his word. Are you spreading his word as well? If not, why not? See where I am coming from now?

No it is not my job to promote this hobby. It's not my job in making you become a Leaf fan. It's not my job to encourage you to watch Sponge Bob Square Pants, or Teletubbies so those companies can make more TV shows and make more money. It's not my job telling you that you should be reading Twilight and go watch those movies on opening day at midnight.

Wow I didn't know that if I become a GW hobby member, I have to join a Religion and have to spread the word.

If you want to do it, go ahead, find by me, but do not tell me I have to promote the hobby. That is just as bad saying I have to have my minis painted.

Agian, this thread has become now, do not put your views onto other people who do not want to do something. First it was non painted minis, now it's we have to promote the hobby?

No it's the companies who have to promote thier own products. If they dont sell, then they have no one else to blame. What's next? I have to tell everyone how wonderfull the Slam Chop or the Sham Wow is now to everyone?

[Renegade]

@ Bean, I don't think thats helpful, as he does supply units that are painted if the other has none. Sure there are other ways, and its not quite right, but the other dude could just walk away laughing that he takes it so seriously.

[scadugenga]

I think it's fairly safe to say that there are many paths to being an elitist prig, being a hobby stalin is not the only way.

That being said, let's avoid insulting people directly. It's counter-productive.

If we can stay issue-oriented as opposed to person-oriented there might be actual progress made! :)

[Melissia]

I'm confused about this concept that I'm somehow an ******* because I play with painted figures. Why would I put in the effort as well as welcome passers-by to the games and then act like a jerk to them?

Being blatantly and openly smugly superior to someone else over a HOBBY is very douchey, and you have been. Trying to tell people that if they don't enjoy the hobby YOUR way they aren't as good as you is idiotic, and you have done that. Elitists in the gaming/hobby community are ***holes without exception. You are one. You said it yourself, and you were right. Nobody likes elitists, because they are a malignant tumor on our hobby, sucking the life out of it for their own enjoyment.

[Cossack]

You're not an ******* because you play with painted figures, Cossack. You're an ******* because you consider the fact that some people don't to be a "disease."

Frankly, if you don't see how that makes you an *******, I'm not sure there's much hope for you as a person.

Yep, I suck horribly. There is no hope for me as a person. It's not like I've traveled the country running games, brought a lot of new blood into the hobby and know one or two things about miniatures wargaming outside of the GW world. Instead I just sit at home alone, friendless, insulting people on the Internets as I wait for the paint to dry on my miniatures.

[HsojVvad]

@ Cossak I have been reading through your posts. You started off very well, very intelligent even. These are your own words in quotes.


And the bolded point was about being lazy if you don't paint.

See here you are accusing someone of being something now, without proof.


There is NO EXCUSE for not painting your army. None. That is why some people react negatively to unpainted figures - it's insulting. They put in the time and effort and somehow are supposed to smile and ignore the fact that you didn't.

See here you capitlized NO EXCUSE. By saying excuse you are saying the person was wrong in the first place. Please show us the rules or bible that says minis have to be painted.

Even GW says you don't have to paint them. It is nicer if you do, but is not maditory to paint when you play at your own home.


How can somebody be too busy to paint, but not too busy to buy the figures, glue them together, read the rules, read the codexes, make army lists, play games, post on the forums and do whatever else is hobby related...but yet there is no time to apply a paint brush to a pot of paint and then to a figure.

Nope, it's laziness. It's a case of "I don't want to do it because I don't like it and I don't have to so you're a jerk if you don't like it."

I'm an elitist too.

People have given explanations as to why they can't paint, but by saying if you can do it, they can too. People do not like being told what to do, if they don't have to. I know I said this before, but there are people out in the world who give thier last penney to people in need. They don't have nothing for themselves. So instead of buying over priced minis, paint and time, they give the money to others and devote thier free time to help others as well.

Why don't you do that? It's a choic, and a choice that shouldn't be forced onto you. Are you less of a person because you buy minis and paint them and not using that time to help out your fellow man? No it dosn't. The same thing goes agaisnt people who don't paint for what ever reason. Now you are starting to say how it's suppose to be now.


I've been in this hobby 30 years. Painted figures is what it is all about. How many countless hobbies are there that don't require painted figures?

And there's no such thing as having time to everything else EXCEPT put paint on figures. And once you actually have a painted army, you should use it while you work on other figures.

What you do in your house with your friends is your business. But when I go to a local hobby shop for a pickup game, it's attitudes like this that ruin the experience. Most of my friends don't even bother fighting the issue so you never see them....which means your type is running off the very players I want to find. That's why it's an issue.


Keep the unpainted crap out of public games and stop making excuses. Raise your own standards for once - it's easy, just care enough to do it.

Now you are saying people are beneath you here and you are better than us. We need to raise our own standards? When did our standards become so low? How about if someone told you to raise your standards? Don't be so fat? Don't be so ugly and nerdy looking. Because you look like a geek or nerd, our hobby has a bad reputation of us, not showering and living in our parents basements in our 40's because you are not skinny and musculear.

So while people with non painted minis are forcing people with painted armies out of the stores and gaming places as you claim, because you do not look like a jock, other people in society think I am a geek nerd and looser because I play with unpained minis.

Even though I do not mean what I said, you can see how we are putting our views on each other. So if you want me to paint my minis, I want you to be not sitting while you play, excerise and eat properly. Please go to the gym and work out, so we are not classified as geeks and nerds or worse.

I have no right to say that to you just as you have no right to say that to me. Since I do not tell you to do that in my example, but you keep saying how you have to paint and putting your views on us, this makes you look like an *******.


You bully! ]

Now you are just name calling. I see no joking here, no wink or smiley face, so it's just name calling now.


Thanks Buffo.

I came by to post about a game I played today at the local shop. This game was the ONLY game with 100% painted figures and terrain. A young couple wandered in to look around and were immediately drawn to my game. I asked why - because it looked good. They hung around a while, didn't buy anything, but we got names and invited them back anytime they wanted to try it out.

That's how you attract new players. Not with unpainted figures - you do it the right way. I've sold a lot of merchandise to people this way...it might be a mom who sees my game and buys the starter set for her son, or something similar.

It really is important to present the best possible game when playing in public. And I'll agree that sportsmanship is vital - screaming and yelling over rules (or unpainted figures) will drive bystanders right out.

Now you start to sound intelligent again.

As you can see here, some people here think you are an ******* because, you do not acknowladge the reasons people tell you why they do not paint.

For you it's an excuse no matter what. So that makes you think that you are better than us.

You say how the game must be played without proving facts. Again, when in my own home I can do what ever I want. You even acknowladge what you do in your own home is fine, but then you still keep talking on how the game should be played in our own home or else where. This makes you look like a prick.

Then you start to name call, and say because of the lack of unpainted minis, it's driving the people you play with away. I live in Ontario. How am I having a non painted army driving your painted playing people away? Now you are blaming me for what is happening. This also makes you a prick and ******* now.

See where I am coming from? These are your own words. This is why and I believe others think you are an *******.

We understand you like playing with painted armies. We are not disagreeing with you here. What we or at least I, disagree with is, that you are telling people how to do this hobby. You have no right to tell anyone, espically if you will never see them and play them, what to do, and how to do it. If you tell me that I have to have painted minis, then I will tell you, that you have to shower, that you can't sit down, that you have to have your hat off, because if you don't you are just lazy for sitting down when you play.

So a person who dosn't paint thier mins is lazy, but the people in the picture are sitting down and that is not lazy? That is a doulbe standard now. So it's ok to be lazy when you play a game but not painitng?

Now you are attacking peoples character, like I would be attacking your character or who ever was in that picture if I ment what I said. I dont mean it since I would never begrudge anyone from sitting down or what ever I said.

[Melissia]

Yep, I suck horribly. There is no hope for me as a person. It's not like I've traveled the country running games, brought a lot of new blood into the hobby and know one or two things about miniatures wargaming outside of the GW world. Instead I just sit at home alone, friendless, insulting people on the Internets as I wait for the paint to dry on my miniatures.

And? You're still elitist by your own admission and through your words and tone on this forum. Elitism is a plague on the hobby, and no matter what else you CLAIM to have accomplished, it will continue to cause people to disrespect you until you drop the smug superiority and arrogance in your posts.

And rightfully so. People can claim to be a friggin' Bodhisattva on the internet, but that should never excuse them to act like jerks.

[Hellfire]

Viva la Paintbrush! Down with bare plastic!

[HsojVvad]

Being blatantly and openly smugly superior to someone else over a HOBBY is very douchey, and you have been. Trying to tell people that if they don't enjoy the hobby YOUR way they aren't as good as you is idiotic, and you have done that. Elitists in the gaming/hobby community are ***holes without exception. You are one. You said it yourself, and you were right. Nobody likes elitists, because they are a malignant tumor on our hobby, sucking the life out of it for their own enjoyment.
Perfectly said. I wish I could say this in so little words. Well done.


Yep, I suck horribly. There is no hope for me as a person. It's not like I've traveled the country running games, brought a lot of new blood into the hobby and know one or two things about miniatures wargaming outside of the GW world. Instead I just sit at home alone, friendless, insulting people on the Internets as I wait for the paint to dry on my miniatures.

Here you go again. Melissia told you exactly why, and you still have to make yourself a better person than all of us. It dosn't matter if you traveld the courntry running games. That is good. It's good you brought in new blood.

We are not saying there is no hope for you. What we are saying as Melissia said, you are "blantly and openly smugly superior... trying to tell people that if they don't enjoy the hobby YOUR way..."

Don't you get it? You are saying you are better than us. If that is what you want, fine, you are a better Nerd, Geek, Looser, than me. Are you happy now? We are not trying to label people here, but you keep doing it by saying you are above us, better than us.

There are so many people on BoLS, that love playing painted armies. They don't go about saying how they bring people into the hobby, or travel the country to set up games. The respect us even if we don't paint our armies.

I believe that is what it comes to. You have no respect for anyone who dosn't see it your way. Your way is not the only way. You have to respect all the aspects of the hobby people like to do.

You my friend, have no respect who dosn't fallow it your way. This hobby is not your way or the high way. We are all in it for different reasons.

[Aldramelech]

That maybe why you enjoy the hobby Aldramelech, but don't you dare think you speak for us all, or that you know what the hobby is about. They are lots of different aspects to this hobby, playing and painting are just a part of it.

Some people just like collecting armies, some enjoy the simple at of making plastic crack, for others its the fluff , for some its painting and others its playing, or a combination of any of those things or those I haven't thought of.

We all got in to Warhammer for varying reasons, it not for us to dictate the hobby to others.

Seriously lost respect for you dude, and you can take dude literally as to what I think of your opinion of our hobby.

Its a damned hobby, its all about we take what we enjoy from it!

Calm down son. If you had read the post properly and not rushed to get on your high horse you would have noticed that you have misenterprated what was said totaly.

We promote the hobby (We being the members of my club) and our hobby ("Our"being the members of my club) is playing with painted figures. Taken in context with the rest of the post, where am I telling you to do anything?

You Sir, are offensive Sir! I demand satisfaction! :p

[Melissia]

Actually adralmech, you did say other things. Such as trying to claim that the only reason people don't paint is because they don't want to.

At the moment I don't paint my Ork army because I'm out of green paint, and I'm saving up money to buy books for college after being basically bankrupted by tuition. When I classes start in August/September, I won't be painting because I have more important things to do (homework, study, etc). The fact that I don't like painting only adds to the delay, and certainly isn't the primary reason for it.

For that matter, I DO want to paint my armies... most notably my Ork one. But I don't enjoy it.

[Aldramelech]

Actually adralmech, you did say other things. Such as trying to claim that the only reason people don't paint is because they don't want to.

At the moment I don't paint my Ork army because I'm out of green paint, and I'm saving up money to buy books for college after being basically bankrupted by tuition. When I classes start in August/September, I won't be painting because I have more important things to do (homework, study, etc). The fact that I don't like painting only adds to the delay, and certainly isn't the primary reason for it.

For that matter, I DO want to paint my armies... most notably my Ork one. But I don't enjoy it.

Try? there is no try. Do or do not!:p

[HsojVvad]

Calm down son. If you had read the post properly and not rushed to get on your high horse you would have noticed that you have misenterprated what was said totaly.

We promote the hobby (We being the members of my club) and our hobby ("Our"being the members of my club) is playing with painted figures. Taken in context with the rest of the post, where am I telling you to do anything?

You Sir, are offensive Sir! I demand satisfaction! :p

I must have read it wrong too then, since I thought you were talking about everyone in the hobby. I don't ever recall you mentioning your club.

It is good to know you don't mean all of us.

[Aldramelech]

You are not an ******* because you play with painted figures, as Bean said, you are an ******* because you are telling us how the game must be played. If it's know your way we are beneath you and you are better than us.

So say those 2 people in the picture started to get into 40K or GW game, and come to play but don't paint thier armies for what ever reason? Now are they less of a person to begin with before they even got into the game? You have made some really some comments that we don't agree with, and when we disagree we are beneath you then. I wll go back and see what comment you have made that pissed us off and this is why we think you are an *******.

@ Aldramelech, I am suppose to promote the hobby? Are you kidding me? Maybe I should enlighted you about a man who lived 2000 years ago? Maybe I should be telling you how to fallow his ways? There is even a codex that encourges us that we should spread his word. There are other in fact say that we must spread his word. Are you spreading his word as well? If not, why not? See where I am coming from now?

No it is not my job to promote this hobby. It's not my job in making you become a Leaf fan. It's not my job to encourage you to watch Sponge Bob Square Pants, or Teletubbies so those companies can make more TV shows and make more money. It's not my job telling you that you should be reading Twilight and go watch those movies on opening day at midnight.

Wow I didn't know that if I become a GW hobby member, I have to join a Religion and have to spread the word.

If you want to do it, go ahead, find by me, but do not tell me I have to promote the hobby. That is just as bad saying I have to have my minis painted.

Agian, this thread has become now, do not put your views onto other people who do not want to do something. First it was non painted minis, now it's we have to promote the hobby?

No it's the companies who have to promote thier own products. If they dont sell, then they have no one else to blame. What's next? I have to tell everyone how wonderfull the Slam Chop or the Sham Wow is now to everyone?


Im slightly confused by you.......

Apparently, you don't paint figures, you don't buy figures (Because of hungry street people) you don't do model making, you don't want to promote your own hobby in any way. You do however seem to enjoy slagging people off on the internet quite alot. Is this your only involvement?

What use are you exactly?

As Pit the Younger said to the German Chancellor at the Congress of Vienna - Poo to you with Nobs on!

[Aldramelech]

I must have read it wrong too then, since I thought you were talking about everyone in the hobby. I don't ever recall you mentioning your club.

It is good to know you don't mean all of us.

Then you are quite stupid arnt you? Because the whole post is about my club and its role in "Wargaming" as opposed to just the "GW" hobby. Can you read? Not very well it seems.......

[Melissia]

That was incredibly douchey even by my standards.

[klinesmith]

Then you are quite stupid arnt you? Because the whole post is about my club and its role in "Wargaming" as opposed to just the "GW" hobby. Can you read? Not very well it seems.......

I suppose you think the ad hominem approach is the best way to support your case for painted units but in truth you only serve to validate the opponents of this belief.

Pro-painters in this thread have so very conveniently ignored a simple, simple counter-argument:


How can you possibly begin to demand that my time be spent in a particular way when you have absolutely no idea what I contend with on a daily basis? What gives you that right?



Answer that. Do it. Until you can you will forever lose this debate.

[Cossack]

Spend your time doing whatever you want. But when people make statements about there being nothing wrong with playing the game with unpainted figures, they are going to get some push back from those of us who disagree.

I think the secret to getting more people to agree with me is to starting calling others 'douchebags'.

[Melissia]

I think the secret to getting more people to agree with me is to starting calling others 'douchebags'.

I think the secret to getting more people to stop calling you an arrogant elitist douchebag is to stop being an arrogant elitist douchebag.

[Cossack]

douchebag

[Melissia]

While it's nice for you to actually respond to anything I say, I'd much prefer you actually pay attention to the meaning behind it instead of trolling.

[Aldramelech]

That was incredibly douchey even by my standards.

"When I first came to you I was but the student, now I am the Master!"

"Only a master of douchbags Aldramelech!" :D

[Renegade]

Calm down son. If you had read the post properly and not rushed to get on your high horse you would have noticed that you have misenterprated what was said totaly.

We promote the hobby (We being the members of my club) and our hobby ("Our"being the members of my club) is playing with painted figures. Taken in context with the rest of the post, where am I telling you to do anything?

You Sir, are offensive Sir! I demand satisfaction! :p

And I suppose you have a sign up, clear as day, so that a hobbyist that hasn't got a fully painted army (for what ever reason) doesn't mistake for a place they would be welcomed.

I still say that the way you treat other gamers is wrong, your club or no. I dispute that Vets will eventually leave their GW, they will go where they can get a decent game.

If you insist on calling me out, I call Pitch Fork and Hatchet at 12 paces! (gonna do this N. Devon style!) :cool:

[Aldramelech]

I suppose you think the ad hominem approach is the best way to support your case for painted units but in truth you only serve to validate the opponents of this belief.

Pro-painters in this thread have so very conveniently ignored a simple, simple counter-argument:


How can you possibly begin to demand that my time be spent in a particular way when you have absolutely no idea what I contend with on a daily basis? What gives you that right?



Answer that. Do it. Until you can you will forever lose this debate.


Ohh its internet shouting now is it? OK........

WHEN HAVE I, IN ANY POST, TOLD YOU HOW TO SPEND YOUR TIME?

All Ive said is dont keep making bad excuses. If you dont want to paint, then dont. Just say so, no skin off my nose.

(See, I can shout too:D)

[Aldramelech]

And I suppose you have a sign up, clear as day, so that a hobbyist that hasn't got a fully painted army (for what ever reason) doesn't mistake for a place they would be welcomed.

I still say that the way you treat other gamers is wrong, your club or no.

If you insist on calling me out, I call Pitch Fork and Hatchet at 12 paces! :cool:

But like Ive said in a previous post, there are 4 gaming clubs in the area to choose from all with different ways of doing things, If we are not your thing, then its not like we're the only choice. We present ourselves honestly and are upfront about the way the club is run, if thats not to your taste we are very helpful about finding somewhere that is. Like I said, we promote the hobby. There is always a chance that person will, at a later date, come back to us. Its not in our interests or nature to piss people off.

We have close ties with the other 3 clubs, we even run a major show together, they send us members we send them members. It works.

I'll take the pitchfork by the way... I'll show you the South Devon Way of Pain!

[Chris Copeland]

Some of us on the pro-painting side don't see this as a debate: rather we just soldier on, preferring painted armies over unpainted armies. Personally, I have more respect for folks who paint their armies and I have more fun playing against painted armies... However, I mostly keep that to myself. Sometimes I'll pass on a game versus an unpainted army (especially if I can get in a game with a painted one instead) but I'd never make an issue of it with the owner of the unpainted army... I'd certainly never tell them WHY I wasn't playing them.... I'd just move on graciously...

Some of us live by the idea of "playing with painted minis as much as possible". I play with unpainted minis from time to time... I certainly prefer painted armies.... I won't make an issue of folks not seeing things my way: I just carry on...

So paint your minis... Don't paint your minis... Whatever... I'll continue to think better of those that take the time to paint but there is no harm in that... Most of the folks in my circle take the time to paint their stuff. I shan't enforce my beliefs on anyone else but I'm human enough to know what pleases me more... And painted minis please me more. Obviously, we all bring different desires to this hobby. Please don't imply that liking painted minis more and admiring folks who paint their minis more is out of bounds.

Good gaming to all... Cheers...

PS. The old timers mentioned at the beginning of this thread were obviously jerks (as I've said before).

[Renegade]

Ohh its internet shouting now is it? OK........

WHEN HAVE I, IN ANY POST, TOLD YOU HOW TO SPEND YOUR TIME?

All Ive said is dont keep making bad excuses. If you dont want to paint, then dont. Just say so, no skin off my nose.

(See, I can shout too:D)

And it can be said that having a life an get in the way of having a fully painted army. Do you offer to paint armies for free for really busy people?

Oh no, its a Pitch fork and Hatchet each. You dont get off that easily.

[Aldramelech]

And it can be said that having a life an get in the way of having a fully painted army. Do you offer to paint armies for free for really busy people?

Nope, but my rates are very reasonable:D

[Cossack]

No it doesn't. How can you have time to do everything EXCEPT paint? Unpossible.

[Renegade]

Nope, but my rates are very reasonable:D

If your going to make demands, then you should do that free.

Got to say, if I stumbled in to your club and I was given that 'must be painted' shenanigans I would not hang around or be back, and my armies are completely painted.

I expect your Pitch Fork and Hatchet to have the regulation 3 colours and proper painted. They should also be NFU regulation and supported brand.

[BuFFo]

I tap 3 mountains, and cast a Ball Lightning.

I attack with my Balll Lightning for 6 damage.

You are at -2 life.

I win.

[Renegade]

No it doesn't. How can you have time to do everything EXCEPT paint? Unpossible.

Go to work (about 1 hour commute) work 8 hours (commute) spend time with partner, get some things built maybe on week end. (month or so later) Have built army and take it to club to see how it does. Except that the club does not allow unpainted. Spend time on webs looking for another club. Live in a flat (probably rented) so no room to spray undercoat...... etc.

I know a number of people this would apply to.

[HsojVvad]

Then you are quite stupid arnt you? Because the whole post is about my club and its role in "Wargaming" as opposed to just the "GW" hobby. Can you read? Not very well it seems.......

So I am stupid now eh? You said Wargamers club. So you are telling me ever single wargamers club acts like yours? Maybe your club and a few others act like that, but 100% of them work like that? Even if they do, and someone misunderstands, to call them stupid? I am not the only one who "miss read" your post. So now we are all stupid then eh? Even Cossak dosn't do that. I just have lost all respect for you.

I guess I may be stupid, but I see you character coming out. Your character speaks for itself.

I buy minituers. I paint some, some I don't paint. I tried the painting aspect and I do not find it so fun as I was told it would be. I model some, I collect some. When given the time, I play a few games even though I do not know the rules very well.

So I am here, because I like the minitures. I like modeling from time to time, but not all the time. I even like to convert a bit, even though I suck at it. I do not like being told what or how to play the game.

So now someone has a difference of opnions, no you are not just beneath the peron, you are stupid as well? Ok, then I am stupid. Does that make you feel better now? No skin off my back. Sticks and stones.

As I said, I just lost respect for you now.


Some of us on the pro-painting side don't see this as a debate: rather we just soldier on, preferring painted armies over unpainted armies. Personally, I have more respect for folks who paint their armies and I have more fun playing against painted armies... However, I mostly keep that to myself. Sometimes I'll pass on a game versus an unpainted army (especially if I can get in a game with a painted one instead) but I'd never make an issue of it with the owner of the unpainted army... I'd certainly never tell them WHY I wasn't playing them.... I'd just move on graciously...

Some of us live by the idea of "playing with painted minis as much as possible". I play with unpainted minis from time to time... I certainly prefer painted armies.... I won't make an issue of folks not seeing things my way: I just carry on...

So paint your minis... Don't paint your minis... Whatever... I'll continue to think better of those that take the time to paint but there is no harm in that... Most of the folks in my circle take the time to paint their stuff. I shan't enforce my beliefs on anyone else but I'm human enough to know what pleases me more... And painted minis please me more. Obviously, we all bring different desires to this hobby. Please don't imply that liking painted minis more and admiring folks who paint their minis more is out of bounds.

Good gaming to all... Cheers...

PS. The old timers mentioned at the beginning of this thread were obviously jerks (as I've said before).

Very well said for a pro-painter.

[Cossack]

I work. I have children. I have many other things I do. And yet...have time to paint.

Everyone in this hobby has TIME...they just find something else to do with it. Otherwise, they'd be too busy

Not painting your fiigures is a CHOICE.

[Melissia]

Not painting your fiigures is a CHOICE.

A choice that you should stop being an arrogant prick about.

[Aldramelech]

If your going to make demands, then you should do that free.

Got to say, if I stumbled in to your club and I was given that 'must be painted' shenanigans I would not hang around or be back, and my armies are completely painted.

Then it wouldnt come up would it? Its not done in a way where someone comes up to you like Moses comming down the mountain, but as your sooooo determined to take a contrary position, you believe what you want. I'll be enjoying myself come Wednesday night, you amuse yourself how you see fit.

P.S See you on the outskirts of Tiverton at Dawn.


Go to work (about 1 hour commute) work 8 hours (commute) spend time with partner, get some things built maybe on week end. (month or so later) Have built army and take it to club to see how it does. Except that the club does not allow unpainted. Spend time on webs looking for another club. Live in a flat (probably rented) so no room to spray undercoat...... etc.

I know a number of people this would apply to.


So I am stupid now eh? You said Wargamers club. So you are telling me ever single wargamers club acts like yours? Maybe your club and a few others act like that, but 100% of them work like that? Even if they do, and someone misunderstands, to call them stupid? I am not the only one who "miss read" your post. So now we are all stupid then eh? Even Cossak dosn't do that. I just have lost all respect for you.

I guess I may be stupid, but I see you character coming out. Your character speaks for itself.

I buy minituers. I paint some, some I don't paint. I tried the painting aspect and I do not find it so fun as I was told it would be. I model some, I collect some. When given the time, I play a few games even though I do not know the rules very well.

So I am here, because I like the minitures. I like modeling from time to time, but not all the time. I even like to convert a bit, even though I suck at it. I do not like being told what or how to play the game.

So now someone has a difference of opnions, no you are not just beneath the peron, you are stupid as well? Ok, then I am stupid. Does that make you feel better now? No skin off my back. Sticks and stones.

As I said, I just lost respect for you now.



Very well said for a pro-painter.

Welllllll your getting on my tits!

You don't respect me anymore? Show me one single post where you have replied to me showing any kind of modicum of respect for anything I've said or any opinion Ive put forward. Your fooling no one.

You don't respect me anymore? Blimey that'll keep me awake tonight that will...........

[Aldramelech]

I work. I have children. I have many other things I do. And yet...have time to paint.

Everyone in this hobby has TIME...they just find something else to do with it. Otherwise, they'd be too busy

Not painting your fiigures is a CHOICE.


A choice that you should stop being an arrogant prick about.

Oh get a room

[scadugenga]

Not painting your fiigures is a CHOICE.

Finally, out of the mouth of an elitist. You finally realize.

It's a choice. One you do not get to make for others.

Don't want to play against an unpainted army? Fine, I have zero problems with that. (Personally, I would have zero interest in playing a game with you.)

You want to take a snobbish d-bag attitude and demean others for their choice in not painting their army, or coming with a unfinished army--I do have a problem with that.

Trying to impose your "way" as the one true only "way" is inexcusable.

On a completely different note--re: your photo. Did you a) receive permission from the couple to take their picture? b) Did you confirm that they are not minors? c) Did you make the subjects of the photo aware that you would post their images on the internet, and/or receive permission from them for the same? You are on pretty shaky legal grounds with that photo, because it is not obvious that you took it in a public setting, and despite your narrative, they do not look like they were okay with being photographed. (EG eyes averted from the photographer and the girl was holding herself in a defensive posture.)

[Renegade]

Then it wouldnt come up would it? Its not done in a way where someone comes up to you like Moses comming down the mountain, but as your sooooo determined to take a contrary position, you believe what you want. I'll be enjoying myself come Wednesday night, you amuse yourself how you see fit.

Probably be painting the IG I am starting up.... :p

Tiverton!!! Not a chance, they mostly foreign there, an got webbed feet n hands. Lynton!

[HsojVvad]

Welllllll your getting on my tits!

You don't respect me anymore? Show me one single post where you have replied to me showing any kind of modicum of respect for anything I've said or any opinion Ive put forward. Your fooling no one.

You don't respect me anymore? Blimey that'll keep me awake tonight that will...........

I usually agreed with everything what you said. You never said anything wrong. The one time I said something about you, about saying promoting the hobby or what ever it was. I admited I read it wrong, and then you call me stupid? You have never read anything wrong? You could have explained yourself a bit better too so there was no mistaking what you said. It goes both ways.

I havn't said any comments agaisnt you until then. It wasn't an over the top comment or anything like that when I did make a comment. If it was, I am sorry then. So I don't know how I am getting on your tits. I agreed with alot of what you have said. Just because I didn't post that I agree with you, dosn't mean I don't agree with you. There is a lot of comments I agree with but I don't comment on them all. There was a few I did agree with and commented, there are alot of others I agree with and I don't comment on.

How I get on your tits, I do not know. Sorry about that, didn't mean to piss you off.

[HsojVvad]

I work. I have children. I have many other things I do. And yet...have time to paint.

Everyone in this hobby has TIME...they just find something else to do with it. Otherwise, they'd be too busy

Not painting your fiigures is a CHOICE.

Again, you are comparing yourself to other people again. That is good you have time to paint. I might have time to paint, but I don't like painting. So why should I do something that I do not like to do?

I don't like to paint. You don't like to play agaisnt unpainted armies. Do not play me. Simple as that.

Do not tell me what I have to do. If you do, I will be telling you what you have to do then as well.

[Mystery.Shadow]

I think the secret to getting more people to stop calling you an arrogant elitist douchebag is to stop being an arrogant elitist douchebag.

This is the best post I've ever seen on ANY forum!

[klinesmith]

No it doesn't. How can you have time to do everything EXCEPT paint? Unpossible.

You know what? You're absolutely right. I bought these models so that in the scant time I call my spare time between work, class, homework, my fiancee, and sleep I can wait 3 months to paint my entire army before even fielding it.

[Aldramelech]

Probably be painting the IG I am starting up.... :p

Tiverton!!! Not a chance, they mostly foreign there, an got webbed feet n hands. Lynton!

I thought it might be a bit more neutral, and they still marry their cousins, so you'd feel more at home :p:D

[Cossack]

I don't like to paint.

Pay somebody to do it. Otherwise, you picked the WRONG HOBBY.

[BuFFo]

pay somebody to do it. Otherwise, you picked the wrong hobby.


Wow..

I LAUGHED OUT LOUD!!!!

[klinesmith]

Pay somebody to do it. Otherwise, you picked the WRONG HOBBY.


Christ...


Do you think before you speak? I'm going to guess you don't, which is sad for a man your age.

[Melissia]

He's probably just trolling.

[HsojVvad]

Pay somebody to do it. Otherwise, you picked the WRONG HOBBY.

Says who? You? Who are you to say I picked the wrong hobby?

[Aldramelech]

Says who? You? Who are you to say I picked the wrong hobby?

He's Cossack. Cossack, meet Hsomothingy.

[Renegade]

Damn, this still going!

No one has to paint theyre plastic crack, there is no law! We only have the preference of user.

Its getting as bad as whineseer!

[Chris Copeland]

No one has to paint theyre plastic crack, there is no law! We only have the preference of user.

As a member of the pro-painting brigade I feel I must echo Renegade's position: paint... don't paint... enjoy the hobby as you will...

I will personally always gravitate towards painted games but I'd never bring the hammer down on my grey plastic brethren! There are painting-snobs and tacts-snobs... and lots of folks in between...

[Cossack]

This hobby is about playing wargames with collections of painted miniatures.

[Chris Copeland]

This hobby is about playing wargames with collections of painted miniatures.

Except when it isn't... my point is this: playing with painted minis might be the point for some of us... but (unfortunately, in my opinion) it isn't the point for lots of folk...

There are painting-enthusiasts... there are tactics-enthusiasts... and lots of gradients in between...

I'd just as soon not come off the same way the hard cases who say, "Tactics, and only tactics, matter" do... they sound self righteous and arrogant... I mean, c'mon: who are they to tell ME that ONLY tactics matter?

Cheers

[Melissia]

This hobby is about playing wargames with collections of painted miniatures.

This hobby is about a bunch of conscripts with flashlights and tee-shirts shooting green-skinned mushroom-men techno-barbarians.

One doesn't even need miniatures to enjoy that.

[DarkLink]

I work. I have children. I have many other things I do. And yet...have time to paint.

Everyone in this hobby has TIME...they just find something else to do with it. Otherwise, they'd be too busy

Not painting your fiigures is a CHOICE.

Yeah, so you choose to spend your free time painting. Some people choose to spend it on things they actually enjoy, and yet are still able to play the game and enjoy that as well. So you're right, it is a choice. A choice that you cannot make for me,


He's probably just trolling.

I know. But it's just so funny I can't help but say why he's wrong, just to see how he'll try and ignore my points and keep on acting completely irrational. It's like how racists act (no, I'm not calling him a racist). They just go on shouting out their beliefs, no matter how ignorant and irrational they are. Just in this case no one gets hurt.

[scadugenga]

This hobby is about playing wargames with collections of painted miniatures.

Cite your references please. Hard facts, hard data.

Otherwise this is just another made up "truth" like your fallacious IG Sentinel sculpt/release date comment.

[Cossack]

I curious if people playing with unpainting miniatures half-*** everything else in their lives.

[DarkLink]

I curious if people playing with unpainting miniatures half-*** everything else in their lives.

So earlier you were simply making a statement that implied that people who don't paint are lazy. Now you've explicitly insulted them by stating that the only possible explanation for unpainted minis is that the owner is a lazy couch potato.

That sounds suspiciously like the people the OP was talking about.

[Cossack]

Nah, that comment was only for the Internets. I shower real wargamers with love and have none left for some of the slackers here.

[klinesmith]

I curious if people playing with unpainting miniatures half-*** everything else in their lives.

You've crossed the line. Judging from the image you posted you are one of the two obese fellas at the table.

You apparently half-*** quite a bit yourself.

See how that feels? See how it feels to be personally attacked? It's outrageous and rude. Stop posting.

[Cossack]

Actually Kline, I would refer you to the first post I made on this topic. My issue is with the 'career' lazy people. You were unfortunately unaware that the figures should be painted and doubly unfortunate to run into a couple of jerks about it.

I assure you that I am not that way. Instead of running you off, I would have offered you my own figures to use until you had painted your own.

You should know that I love this hobby very much, have been in it for decades, and have watched this slow degradation of standards infect the gaming community. It wasn't bad at first, but has reached the level now where it dominates the hobby - dominates to point where there are people who are actually unaware that painting the figures is just as important as gluing them together!

[Melissia]

If you actually loved the hobby you'd stop being an elitist. As it is, I doubt you really do-- you just use it to justify your smug sense of superiority rather than caring about the hobby itself.

[Aldramelech]

He has a point.

The GW hobby started and grew out of traditional Wargaming. In that hobby playing with unpainted figures was a big no no (and still is). And to begin with it was a similar state of affairs with Warhammer. But over the years there has been a marked decline.

To someone who was there at the begining or can remember back that far its probabley like standing in the middle of Rome and watching it all go to hell in a hand basket.

The Hobby has changed and whether it has changed for the better is a matter of opinion. On the one hand it is more accesable, but on the other, I look across some places and see a horde of unloved, half built figures and I feel sad.

[Melissia]

Not really. A love for the hobby has nothign to do with painted miniatures.

[Aldramelech]

Not really. A love for the hobby has nothign to do with painted miniatures.

YES IT DOES! just not to you.....

[Cossack]

Well put, Aldramelech. I guess that's the difference between an old timer and newer wargamer.

It's worth the fight - just discussing the issue here helps.

[klinesmith]

Well put, Aldramelech. I guess that's the difference between an old timer and newer wargamer.

It's worth the fight - just discussing the issue here helps.

And there it is. It's really the only thing you've needed to say. Claiming this, that or the other is the right way has no bearing. Simply trying to promote all aspects of the hobby is the better route.

I doubt that in a real life setting you are anywhere near the two clowns I ran into. I doubt you'd refuse me a game. If anything you'd likely discuss the painting aspect with tips and pointers. That's all you'd really need to do to show passion.

The painting of this hobby is the best part in my book. I love it and have a knack for it. That said I simply cannot find it in myself to begrudge anyone for any way they feel like handling their models. The best I can do happens to be what I do best: get people intensely excited about things through extremely effective interpersonal communication. In this particular case the "thing" is painting.

Painting is great, you should do it, you should not demand it, you should enjoy the game, etc. I can sum up my philosophy given our rants of 5 year old lunacy that I hope you read and understand why it puts this entire argument to bed:

I'm just happy to be around people who enjoy the same things I do, no matter what channel they took to get there.

/tear

[klinesmith]

YES IT DOES! just not to you.....
Flip the coin, see the point. It's simple and just as effective of an argument though ultimately unnecessary.

NO IT DOESNT! just not to you...

We play the same game, enjoy the same lore, enjoy the same types of people and the same atmospheres. Good enough for me despite your or my prioritization.

[Aldramelech]

Flip the coin, see the point. It's simple and just as effective of an argument though ultimately unnecessary.

NO IT DOESNT! just not to you...

We play the same game, enjoy the same lore, enjoy the same types of people and the same atmospheres. Good enough for me despite your or my prioritization.

That was kinda my point :rolleyes:

[scadugenga]

I curious if people playing with unpainting miniatures half-*** everything else in their lives.

Since you half-***ed your grammar, I guess you fail.

Again.

[Cossack]

Sweet! I think we understand each other. Thanks Kline.

[eldargal]

When I play a game I like to be as immersed as possible in the setting. In my mind as I am rolloing dice I'm actually in the 40k worldm directing hte forces of my Craftworld. For me, that feeling is precious and it is not helped by unpainted miniatures and tins of soft drink on the table. I realise exceptions have to be made for newer players and those with time schedules, but if over the course of some weeks or months the player is plainly not making an effort to paint their army I will think twice about playing them. It isn't about being a snob or being elitist, it's about what I want to get from a game. I won't play poor sports or bad mannereed players for the same reason.