Best Terminator heavy weapon?

[Mike X]

I've already ruled out the Cyclone missile launcher, but I'm having a hard time deciding between the heavy flamer and the assault cannon... although I'm leaning towards the latter. Any advice?

[Connjurus]

I actually really like the missile launcher. Gives you some good vehicle-killing/infantry-slaying versatility, and it has the best range by far of any of the three. In second place comes the Assault Cannon, mainly because it matches the range of the other Termies' stormbolters, so you won't have to decide whether to run or shoot as much - if your heavy weapon can hit, so too can the rest of your unit's weapons.

In last, comes the Heavy flamer (unless you run a Vulcan He'stan list), simply because its use is limited to pretty much one shot before your Terminators get locked in close-combat.

[Mike X]

Good point on the heavy flamer, I didn't even think of that.

The Cyclone originally seemed like a good idea: two small blasts (with a 4" reduction during scatters), a 48" range, and the ability to take out vehicles. The downside, in my opinion, is the S4 AP6, since I'd mostly be using my Terminators against infantry.

So I guess I'll go with the assault cannon.

[DarkLink]

Against some armies, two small blasts is better than a single assault cannon.

[Mike X]

Against some armies, two small blasts is better than a single assault cannon.

Maybe I'll make one of each then and test them out.

[Baron Spikey]

Imagine you're charging your Terminators into a squad of nob bikers- those 2 S8 shots could instant kill 2 nobs leaving less to kill your termies before they get to swing in with their fists, that and the ranged ability against vehicles is worth it over the extra 2 shot from the assault cannon in my opinion.

[The AKH]

Good point on the heavy flamer, I didn't even think of that.

The Cyclone originally seemed like a good idea: two small blasts (with a 4" reduction during scatters), a 48" range, and the ability to take out vehicles. The downside, in my opinion, is the S4 AP6, since I'd mostly be using my Terminators against infantry.

So I guess I'll go with the assault cannon.

Don't count out the frag missile - early game, against tightly packed infantry (or when they've just piled out of a transport) you can easily manage more hits than the 4 that the assault cannon dishes out. And the lack of AP is no problem - your opponent will fail a save sometime.

[DarkLink]

The real nice thing about the Cyclone is it's long range, though. You can deploy the terminators on foot and start shooting out ork truks from across the board, then drop blasts on them the turn afterwards. It's flexible, and gives you lots of useful options.

[jumai]

Remember that compared to the assault cannon, the cyclone launcher puts you up a storm bolter. So, honestly I find it hard to see how the assault cannon can outperform the cyclone against anything except terminators. Unless scatter dice hate you personally I guess.

vs AV11:
assault cannon... (4 shots) x (2/3 hit) =(8/3 hits) x (1/6 chance any givenpenetration roll) =(8/18) =(4/9)... only 1 D6 result will glance so avg 4/9 glancing hits, only 6's penetrate (1 D6 result) so 4/9 penetrating hits
cyclone launcher... 2 x (2/3) =(4/3) x (1/6) =(4/18) =(2/9)... so avg 2/9 glances, 4/5/6 penetrate so 3 x (2/9) =(6/9) penetrating hits

vs AV10:
we know the asscan has a 4/9 chance of glancing, 5/6 penetrate, so 8/9 chance of penetrating
cyclone launcher gets 2/9 chance to glance on the 2, so 8/9 chance of penetrating, plus another 2/9 chance to glance from the storm bolter (same number of shots, glances on 6)

vs MEq:
assault cannon... (8/3 hits) x (4/6 wounding) =(32/18 wounds) x (1/3 unsaved) =(32/54 casualties)
...plus (8/3 hits) x (1/6 rending) =(8/18 casualties) =(24/54 casualties)
...total 58/54 casualties
cyclone launcher... (4/3 krak hits) x (5/6 wounding) =(20/18 casualties)
...plus (4/3 bolter hits) x (1/2 wounding) =(4/6 wounds) x (1/3 unsaved) =(4/18 casualties)
...total (24/18 =) 72/54 casualties

I don't want to try to ballpark frag missile performance for GEq, but honestly it should be pretty clear cut.

[Splug]

With how common squads are in cover, the difference between AP- and AP4 is almost insignificant unless you're firing a template weapon, or other "ignores cover" rule. I wouldn't lose sleep over dropping from AP5 to AP6. The rending shots might be nice from the assault cannon, but if you're worried about armor penetrating rounds, the krak missiles' static AP3 wins out anyway.

And as jumai pointed out, you don't have to give up your storm bolter to mount a cyclone launcher on someone's shoulders. The cyclone rules also explicitly state that the model can fire the bolter AND the missiles, so you still get 4 shots against infantry.

[Melissia]

Indeed, quite a useful little rule.

[Lerra]

Which codex are you using? If you are playing Deathwing/Dark Angels, go with the Assault Cannon. The Missile Launcher only gets 1 shot, not 2 like the new codices.

[Lerra]

Edit: bah, double post. Is there a delete button? Hah, I'm not used to lacking mod privileges on a forum >_<

[Tynskel]

I actually really like the missile launcher. Gives you some good vehicle-killing/infantry-slaying versatility, and it has the best range by far of any of the three. In second place comes the Assault Cannon, mainly because it matches the range of the other Termies' stormbolters, so you won't have to decide whether to run or shoot as much - if your heavy weapon can hit, so too can the rest of your unit's weapons.

In last, comes the Heavy flamer (unless you run a Vulcan He'stan list), simply because its use is limited to pretty much one shot before your Terminators get locked in close-combat.

The thing about terminators...

On the charge (without any bonuses from special circumstances) you have 12 Powerfist attacks and 3 Power Weapon attacks. Terminators are meant to be in the opponent's face. Personally, I think it is a waste to have terminators walk--- sure you can shoot a few rounds, but you will kill more in close combat by a mile! The longer your terminators are just 'walking' the more turns they get shot to death before having a chance to fight in CC.

That's pretty much why I like using terminators with hv flamers the most. In your face, woosh woosh! Fist to Face!

[DarkLink]

That's why I stopped putting psycannons on GK Terminators.

[murrburger]

Yeah, but if you're going to do that, you may as well just use TH/SS terminators, as they easily outperform Tac Termines in CC.

I agree that the cyclone is the best of the options. The extra storm bolter shots just seal the deal.

[Melissia]

The thing about terminators...

On the charge (without any bonuses from special circumstances) you have 12 Powerfist attacks and 3 Power Weapon attacks.
You forget.

3 power fist attacks per terminator, 3 power weapona ttacks on the sergeant.

BUT!

In the shooting phase before that, they shoot storm bolters and a cyclone missile launcher.

Seriously, don't underestimate the power of being able to assault after you shoot.

[scadugenga]

I have to agree with the Cyclone.

The new Marine 'dex rules make the Cyc a great choice--you still get to fire the storm bolter, and add 2 frag/krak missile shots.

Though there's just something iconic about the assault cannon.

Both are great choices.

I actually try to shy away from heavy flamers--I like more boom, less fwoosh I guess.

[BlackKnight15624]

I'll go with the minority and say I love the Heavy Flamer. Speaking from my own experiences, my Terminators tend to spend alot of time in close combat (you can't get shot by lots of lascannons in close combat...), and getting into close combat is often with enemies in cover... so having a weapon that can reliably hit lots of enemies in heavy cover, denying cover saves and the majority of non-MEQ armor saves is fun :-)

[blackarmchair]

Just thought I'd weigh in. The Assault Cannon is hands down the MOST versitile gun in the game. Its only limitation being it's short range but given the range of the rest of the squad it truly shines in a Termie squad. The CML isn't bad at all, but as you'll see from the list below the Assault Cannon is worlds better at just about everything.

The CML is MINORLY better at slaying Marines (about 10% better), but if you'll notice the Assault Cannon is second only to melta and lance as the best tank slayer in the game. It has a better chance of killing a Land Raider than a lascannon - no lie.

So check out the numbers I crunched, hope they help!

CML (frag/krak): GEQ- 2.07/2.00 MEQ-0.67/1.33 TEQ-0.33/0.30

Assault Cannon: GEQ-2.33 MEQ-1.22 TEQ-0.72

CML/Assault Cannon
AV10: 0.89/1.19
AV11: 0.67/0.81
AV12: 0.44/0.44
AV13: 0.22/0.37
AV14: 0.00/0.30

[Connjurus]

The reason I prefer the CML is because it's more versatile than the Assault Cannon, for two big reasons.

1) You can fire it and the Storm Bolter at the same time.
2) Two fire modes.


Those two things together are just great. Combined with the fact that "only 10%" is quite a big percentage, statistically speaking, especially when you combine it with the two stormbolter shots as well.

[blackarmchair]

Yeah those numbers I posted before incorporate the extra stormbolter the CML allows you to fire.

Losing 0.1 wounds against MEQs is negligable when you consider everything else the Assault Cannon does better. It absolutley shreds lighter-armoured infantry, still more than adequate against MEQs and all manner of terminators and monstrous creatures fear the rend. As I said previously, with the notable exception of a melta it has the highest chance of any space marine gun to pen a Land Raider (in fact it's only 3% worse at penning a land raider than a railgun).

The only limitation of the Assault Cannon is the range, this is usually a deterrant but in a terminator squad that's already chalk full of 24" weapons why not put the MOST versitile gun in the game with them?

The only reason I ever take the CML is on a Wolf Guard to chill with my Long Fangs who tend to fire from long range...

[Connjurus]

Don't get me wrong, I love the assault cannon, but I just don't think it's as good as the CML now that rending is on the to-wound/armor penetration roll. I'd rather have two shots against a Carnifex that wound it on 2's and ignore its save than four shots that wound on 4's, with a 6 ignoring its save. Mathhammer aside, since I detest mathhammer, the CML is just more reliable. Not to mention the fact that it inflicts Instant Death on T: 4 models, and gives quite a large threat bubble to that lone Terminator squad, which makes your opponent have to wonder if walking through that field of two Krak/Frag missile shots is worth it.

That, and it looks cooler. ;)

[BlindGunn]

Historically, I've used CML, Assault Cannon and HFlamer - all for different purposes. Most have already been covered here. Ultimately, it's a preference issue - dependent on your play style and regular opponents. My suggestion is try them all out and see what you like best.

Usually, I alternate between the AC and CML. If I put together a "large" Wolfguard Term pack with mostly HtH combos (Double Wolf Claws, TH/SS), I'll usually back it up with an AC (or two), just so it can do something those turns it's out of assault range. If I'm doing regular Storm Bolter + PwrFist/etc, I'll lean towards the Cyclone. As Platoon leaders, Cyclones with the Long Fangs, alternating weapons with anyone else (more likely to use a HFlamer with Blood Claws or Grey Hunters I intend to assault with). Usually, I don't have that many Terminator Heavy Weapons to share like that, though... :(

<sigh> Miss the days of 2nd edition where Cyclones had 12 missiles and could Salvo Fire the missiles to get a variable sized template of destruction. Used to fire 6-12 at a time and take out a couple of units a turn that way... :cool:

Am I showing my age? :eek:

[bloodangel 83]

hey guys, where can i find CLMs at so i can add one to my termies. thanks

[Tynskel]

Historically, I've used CML, Assault Cannon and HFlamer - all for different purposes. Most have already been covered here. Ultimately, it's a preference issue - dependent on your play style and regular opponents. My suggestion is try them all out and see what you like best.

Usually, I alternate between the AC and CML. If I put together a "large" Wolfguard Term pack with mostly HtH combos (Double Wolf Claws, TH/SS), I'll usually back it up with an AC (or two), just so it can do something those turns it's out of assault range. If I'm doing regular Storm Bolter + PwrFist/etc, I'll lean towards the Cyclone. As Platoon leaders, Cyclones with the Long Fangs, alternating weapons with anyone else (more likely to use a HFlamer with Blood Claws or Grey Hunters I intend to assault with). Usually, I don't have that many Terminator Heavy Weapons to share like that, though... :(

<sigh> Miss the days of 2nd edition where Cyclones had 12 missiles and could Salvo Fire the missiles to get a variable sized template of destruction. Used to fire 6-12 at a time and take out a couple of units a turn that way... :cool:

Am I showing my age? :eek:

Haha! Second Edition.

I miss the days of dragging guys out of formation, then slaughtering them in CC.
I am happy the Lictor's Flesh Hooks shoot again, but boy did they nerf him overall.

I think you are spot on, by the way, that each Terminator Special Weapon has its respective use:
I use the Heavy Flamer all the time, 1) it is Inexpensive, 2) it is a Flamer template! 3) Terminator should ALWAYS be in your FACE!!! (why else would you be wearing 2+/5+ armor, teleport, have an assault weapon, and have a powerfist)
I use the Assault Cannon as a multi-purpose gun that is also 24"
I use the Cyclone when I KNOW I am fighting Tyranids--- really, probably one of the best anti-tyranid weapons in the game.

You are as old as we think you are... ;)

[Tynskel]

Just thought I'd weigh in. The Assault Cannon is hands down the MOST versitile gun in the game. Its only limitation being it's short range but given the range of the rest of the squad it truly shines in a Termie squad. The CML isn't bad at all, but as you'll see from the list below the Assault Cannon is worlds better at just about everything.

The CML is MINORLY better at slaying Marines (about 10% better), but if you'll notice the Assault Cannon is second only to melta and lance as the best tank slayer in the game. It has a better chance of killing a Land Raider than a lascannon - no lie.

So check out the numbers I crunched, hope they help!

CML (frag/krak): GEQ- 2.07/2.00 MEQ-0.67/1.33 TEQ-0.33/0.30

Assault Cannon: GEQ-2.33 MEQ-1.22 TEQ-0.72

CML/Assault Cannon
AV10: 0.89/1.19
AV11: 0.67/0.81
AV12: 0.44/0.44
AV13: 0.22/0.37
AV14: 0.00/0.30

hmmm... I think ya did your maths wrong.
To Pen: Cyclone/Assault Cannon

AV10: 0.889/ 0.889
AV11: 0.667/ 0.444
AV12: 0.444/ 0.444
AV13: 0.222/ 0.296
AV14: 0.000/ 0.148

(number of shots)*2/3(to hit)*(to pen)*(to rend, when applicable)= penetration. This the function that I used.

Also, Penning a Land Raider for Tau Broadside Railgun:
1*[(1/2*1/2)+1/2]*1/3=0.250 A little bit better than 3%
1*2/3*1/3= 0.222 Railgun from a Hammerhead. Still better than 3%

Now, I am not going to do the killing mans math. That's a bit more complicated, because blast weapons are very wonky, and are dependent on the arrangement of the troopers. To do it properly, I would need to use a probability density field.

Then again, the numbers I supplied above are funky, and are not 100% correct, either--- technically, probabilities can never go above one, because the function is 0 to 1, you cannot not be more than 100% confident. But fuzzy math works for a fuzzy game...

[Tynskel]

hey guys, where can i find CLMs at so i can add one to my termies. thanks

Try a bitz store. Something like thewarstore.com or something like that. I have tonnnns of Cyclone launchers because, one day, I will make an air cav guard army, and I need lots of rocket pods.

[bloodangel 83]

Tynskel, thanks I will keep looking at the bits stores to see if i can find any CML for my termies. Have fun building your air cav army.