Do Blood Angels break 40k?

[Chris Copeland]

I know threads like this pop up every time a new Codex comes out. However, I have to ask: does the new Blood Angels Codex completely unbalance the game?

It seems to break SO many rules... It seems to be able to overpower almost any other Codex. It makes me wonder why, in a strictly competitive environment, I'd want to play Ultramarines or Chaos Space Marines.

I've only played a limited number of games against BA armies since the book came out. Each time I find myself saying, "That unit can do WHAT? Are you kidding me?!"

Anyhoo, I like 40k... I love this hobby. I don't foresee walking away from 40k anytime soon... But I might pull back on tournament play. So, what is YOU'RE opinion? Will the BAs run roughshod over all other armies from here on out? Is it a balanced Codex? Do YOU think it has "power creep" and, if so, how do you think it effects tournament style play? I look forward to hearing your opinion. Cheers. Copeland

[Aldramelech]

I have to say with the realese of the Spacewolves and the Bloodangels why would anyone play vanilla Marines now?

Which is a shame......

[Lord Azaghul]

Now to be fair ultra marines aren’t the easiest army to learn how to use. The BA and SW codex have to much more ‘obvious’ power appeal. But there are definitely a couple of very stupid things that they can do (fnp in radius is shear dumb on GW’s part)
BA are a little over the top, but that’s only vs other marines, I still think IG can flatten them pretty easily.
However ideally I’d like to see all marines feel more like an ‘elite’ strike force, then just t4 guys in power armour, and I think the BA come the closest to that.

[BuFFo]

But I might pull back on tournament play.

The game is best balanced when played for fun, which is what it is intended to be played as.

As for Blood Angels.... I see nothing particularly powerful about them.

Mech as a whole is an issue, but not a large one, at the local game store level.

[SotonShades]

As always, we are coming back to the classic argument of codex creep. Having played a few games both with and against Blood Angels (or at least using the rules if not actual Blood Angel models...) I think it's fair to say they don't.

It is easy to find the strengths on new lists. At least, it is easier to find the strengths than it is is to find weaknesses on your opponants army, especially if you haven't had the many hours many people spend reading the shiney new codex. This simply means that unless you are lucky enough to play quite a few games a week, you will take a few months, maybe even a year or so, to get used to a codex and work out how to 'reliably' beat it (obviously depending on how skilled an opponant you are playing against and how often they change their lists). During this time, there will be at least one new codex out, probably several. All the time we are fighting to catch up to these new codicies, not being able to study them as deeply as their owners do and never quite understanding them as well as we could. This makes each codex more effective than the last.

In addition, believe it or not, the Studio Staff do spend hundreds of hours play testing armies, units and individual models. Not in games as we play... there are too many varibales in a standard game of 40k to even contemplate play testing that way. That isn't to say they don't play test in standard scenarios, but it comes towards the end of the process.

What would happen if we didn't get a new codex for a couple of years? Well, I assume a lot of people would get pretty bored without getting new shiney every so often. but if we just look at the game itself; no new tricks, nothing you aren't expecting from a unit you haven't played against... I would put money on finding most of these over-powered, broken, new codicies being just as balanced as the older ones. Ok, with as many different aspects as you get in a single army, let alone in all the armies we know and love, there is never going to be a perfect balance, but it would be pretty cloe. Much closer than many people think the current game is.

I actually know a group of people who still play 3rd Edition 40k. They haven't brought a single Codex or Rulebook since the 4th Ed book came out. Guess what? They love it! Between them they have at least one of every army, and they claim it is an exceptionally balanced system. Of course, playing against the same group of players time and again will have a balancing effect.

Has anyone else had a similar experience, with a group of friends who haven't bought a new codex for a while and seen deminishing returns from the "New Codex Effect"?

[Tynskel]

Blood Angels, as with Space Wolves, have a very easy ability to spend Lots of points on very few things. That's where the balancing comes in.

Space Marines have the opposite, essentially, they have lots of stuff that's inexpensive, however, you cannot take very many! (like Thunderfire Cannon---3 for 300 points--- Inexpensive. however, there are ramifications to making these decisions).


If you look at mech--- oh wow! Fast Tanks! But then compare the price--- it is hard to squeeze in a lot of the actual battle tanks and have enough points for a balanced list.
Look at Deep Striking Land Raiders-- sound cool, but they are huge, and scattering could easily mean the loss of 600 points. Ouch! So you have to invest other points to make sure the Land Raider goes where you want to---next thing you know you do not have enough points for the rest of ya army!


Of course, you could Min-Max, spam, ect.... but where's the fun in that?

[addamsfamily36]

No the blood angels codex doesn't break the rules, as a rule break is a rule break whereas all of their rules are well rules...

I'm starting to see where melisia is coming from. :)

Right lets see:

lets go back to the old Blood angels codex, not the white dwarf one but the one before that:

-death company - FREE , could take power weapon, had feel no pain, had furious charge etc etc
-The WHOLE AMRY had furious charge effectively (was a blood angel specific rule back then, possibly chaos too not sure) anyways.
-HQ units more customizable and cheaper also Librarians had quickening a blood angels specific trait which also got shared.
-Fast engines - could be immobilized


rigt so NEW edition

-Death company Amazing but have to pay for them, which i think is fair, but now means they take up a huge portion of your army. also rage can't be controlled by the presence of a chaplain anymore

-Now the abilities are either randomly generated, or you have to pay for it via priests - Again fine, but you pay for it

- Good Hq choice's but EXPENSIVE and 3 out of them don;t have independent character.

- Always had fast engines, this just makes sense that they become fast, especially as you can;t disembark anymore (haven't been able to for awhile)

- the dreadknoughts - furiosos have always been there, the new addition of death company dread and librarian are very nice, but NO venerable dread which im fine with the beinifits of the loverly dreads makes up for it, but an all dread army is going to be weak versus anythign with high fire power.

- stormraven meh not gonna comment i liek the idea of them but again take it down with one shot and what you got? an expensive flyign tomb.

-well thats about all i got. sanguinary guard are cool, but they will die in close combat. 5 max? one less attack due to double handed weapons? no inv?
or you take the honor guard that come with a free priest, and haven;t changed too much other than weapons choices.

Ok i'm done :)

[entendre_entendre]

BA are balanced for the most part. They have a few things that make you go "Wha-?" the first few times you see them, but they end up costing more than your regular marines, so you will have fewer dudes to deal with.

Just send a BA army after a Wolves army and see what happens. One will emerge victorious, but probably only just.

[maccas]

I dont think BA are over done in whole just afew models,however ive beat BA with necrons hahaha

[Image]

Now to be fair ultra marines aren’t the easiest army to learn how to use. The BA and SW codex have to much more ‘obvious’ power appeal.

As an Ultramarine player dabbling with a BA list, I cannot emphasize this statement enough. I still sometimes struggle with UM lists as the amount of options offer a diverse range of effective units. Making a list and discovering the tactics behind it require some foresight and proper planning. It's not the least-forgiving list, but some finesse, I argue, is required.

For the BAs, I don't find this much at all. In fact, I recall Goatboy suggesting that BAs are a finesse army, but I think that's severely stretching it. Of course, BAs work well while around priests; isn't that obvious? That's what strikes me with the BA list - just how obvious the choices can be. Moreover, your survivability is such that the units become very much point-and-click. You send them in and can feel pretty confident they'll do what they need to do in CC.

In terms of breaking the game, I wouldn't say so. Not exactly, at least. I understand the argument that each unit costs a lot of points, but to think that a 5-strong assault squad can get a fast transport with a heavy weapon, meltagun, and a power weapon while counting as scoring is merely 145 points. Multiply that by 6 and you still have a LOT of wiggle room for your elites, fast, heavy, HQs. So, with that in mind, I would argue that some builds in the BA codex are broken, but not all of them.

To sum up, if I want to really think about how to win and focus on finesse, I'll play my Ultramarines. If I want a straight-forward game without much forethought, I'll play BA and feel confident.

[lobster-overlord]

GW is just making up to us BA players for 5 years of a suck-butt PDF codex.

[addamsfamily36]

GW is just making up to us BA players for 5 years of a suck-butt PDF codex.

And i think they jsut about managed to calm us down for a bit lol :)

[addamsfamily36]

Was it really 5 years?

[Chris Copeland]

Let me put this another way:

Take two players of equal ability and equal points. One has a Chaos Space Marine Army and the other plays Blood Angels. Won't the BA player run roughshod over the CSM player because the Blood Angels models do almost anything and everything the Chaos Space Marine models do (but better and cheaper)?

Doesn't the Blood Angels player gain a HUGE advantage in the tournament environment over the Chaos Space Marine player simply because his Codex makes a win significantly easier? Or am I mis-reading the power of the BA Codex?

Cheers. Copeland

[DarkLink]

But there are definitely a couple of very stupid things that they can do (fnp in radius is shear dumb on GW’s part)

Yeah. Especially since it's FNP and Furious Charge with a radius, and you can also get a bunch of Chaplains in there.

And the new Death Company are a bit over the top. They shouldn't have included the special rule with the chaplain rerolling to hit and to wound. That's a bit too much.

[addamsfamily36]

Yeah. Especially since it's FNP and Furious Charge with a radius, and you can also get a bunch of Chaplains in there.

And the new Death Company are a bit over the top. They shouldn't have included the special rule with the chaplain rerolling to hit and to wound. That's a bit too much.

Yeh but the radius effect has a downside. its a radius.

Ok originally the whole army got furious charge, now it gets FNP too, but you pay what 50 pts for the priest, jumpack as you want it with your troops so thats 75 pts. your going to have to take maybe 2-3 or these, so that already 150-200 points spent on targetable, one wound, characters to bring in two benefits, One of which the whole army used to come with. There is the ability to role for the ability at the start, but thats hti and miss).

hmm the re-rolling to hit and to wound should have been a character specific trait such as lemartes or astorath. At least that way you limit how it can be used or taken. But having said that, you do pay for them. and you pay a lot. My unit costs i think in the region of 450 points, first game using the new rules i deep striked and had a mishap....scattered too far directly on top of a tank and the whole unit died. OOPS :D


As for chaos players, Deathguard army. fnp, higher toughness they are really hard to crack in combat.

[plasticaddict]

I don't see them as overpowered, just something new for us to get used to.

[BlacknightIII]

Blood Angels are far from overpowered my new Tyranid army eats them up for breakfast. Mephiston? Ha! I say Hive Tyrant with implant attacks, preffered enemy, lash whip and bonesword. Even better if i get some warriors in the charge too. Tons of attacks, lots of rending and poison the only thing that annoys me is a landraider. Im currently stuck playing at 1,000 points so my mood may change a bit at 1,500.

[murrburger]

BA, I would say, are weaker than SWs.

Of course, both these armies are weaker than Guard (Who probably come closest to breaking the game, but actually don't)

I wouldn't say that Guard are an auto-win, but they generally have a good matchup against most other armies.

[[email protected]]

The BA are a nice codex. They have some great toys and great abilities I'm looking at you FNP FC bubbles. But far from game breaking. The Wolves to me come closer to breaking marines with 2 base attacks per model and the ability to get 3 attacks per model if they are charged or when they charge and Thunderwolves. Libby dreads and the DeathCompany dreads are nice but still are just dreads with cooler powers but blood talon dreads just need to be feed garbage or cheap old Dreadnaught CCw you can scrtach me with str6 all day I'll take my str10 brain buster any day. Good old marines have a lot of options but the synergies are not as obvious as say SW or BA are. I for one don't want to play BA and really don't want to play wolves. But neither of those armies really break the game. Guard come the closest but I have never had an issue with Guard its only when they bring Inquistional friends, once that's gone the balance can get closer to center.

[tyrant of khador]

personally I believe BA are no where close to being broken let alone break the game. The army relies on synergy just like most eldar armies to acheive victory without this you are playing with a handicap. Let me explain if you play BA like normal C:SM then you are pay way too much for units and will acheive little. Granted BA get assault squads as troops which how the BA codex has them set up are much more versitile than other assault squads in other marine dexes, but these units need support other wise they die in droves. Likewise units that help support assault squads are quite expensive so you either pay out the nose for support units and have little scoring units or you run several scoring units and have very little in support unlike orks that you send in hundreds of models lose half of them and still can threaten your opponent. The key with BA is having the perfect mix of assault/scoring units with support units and picking your assaults. If you plan a poor assault or are in turn assaulted this is a major blow to your army, but if you strike at the right time in the right place your gonna put your opponent on the ropes reeling from the damage. BA personally are a glass jaw army, yeah they hit hard but if you leave the left hand down and your chin up just a little that guy's right cross is gonna lay your *** out!

[Image]

BA personally are a glass jaw army, yeah they hit hard but if you leave the left hand down and your chin up just a little that guy's right cross is gonna lay your *** out!

Until you add in a priest, of course. While I know you're speaking in terms of battle plans, etc, I just don't think BA have any issues with survivability. Allow me to put it this way: 5 Assault Marines with a razorback is 120 points. Add in a Priest to get an extra half of your model count, (5+1+3=9). I suggest that it's not doubling your wounds because if you take 6 wounds, you're only saving three of those. So, the total cost of that comes up to 170 points. 9 assault marines is normally 172 points before factoring in a fast transport with a heavy weapon on it.

Sure, priests are ICs and that can be troublesome in CC, but his benefits don't require him to be in CC. Plus, mindwar, telion, or vindicare shenanigans can put a damper on him, so you keep your priest in a vehicle or nearby a psychic hood while still getting the FNP, FC benefits. So it really comes down to your opponent using mass plasma, missiles, rending to chew through all of those free wounds. With a bubble effect on the priests, it's such a huge force multiplier in terms of survivability for few points comparative to how many "free" wounds you get. The point cost initially seems like a drawback, but when you realize just how much that 1-wound model offers you between FC and effectively increasing your model count, it's actually quite a bargain.

[Chris Copeland]

So, DOES a Blood Angels player automatically get a huge edge over a... say, Chaos Space Marine player... or a Tyranid player... or an Ultramarines player... by simply fielding a BA force? Conversely, is the BA Codex actually nicely balanced (and I'm still missing it because I keep saying, "Holy Crap! Yer army can do THAT?!)?

What advantages does a CSM army offer over a BA army? My 'Nids are supposed to be a great hand-to-hand army but I'm left wondering how they can go toe-to-toe with a BA list...

cheers.... Copeland

[entendre_entendre]

So, DOES a Blood Angels player automatically get a huge edge over a... say, Chaos Space Marine player... or a Tyranid player... or an Ultramarines player... by simply fielding a BA force? Conversely, is the BA Codex actually nicely balanced (and I'm still missing it because I keep saying, "Holy Crap! Yer army can do THAT?!)?
No codex automatically has an advantage over another by simply having a different codex. Lists determine now much advantage a particular army has over another. A randomly chosen BA army is more likely to lose to an optimized list than win against it simply because it is new/different. Having two optimized lists going after each other would be (and usually is) a toss-up about who's going to be the winner.


What advantages does a CSM army offer over a BA army? My 'Nids are supposed to be a great hand-to-hand army but I'm left wondering how they can go toe-to-toe with a BA list...

Obliterators, Defilers, Higher Ld/fearless, Lash, Multipurpose basic troops, and of course: KHARN!!!!!!
For your nids, TMC's will smash apart BA if you can catch them, 'stealer shock to the flanks, and tervigons pooping out gaunts in the back line for objectives should make it interesting.

[Havik110]

space wolves are so glaringly more OP than BA its crazy...The guy that did BA only went half way. You give them a rule that makes them very good at deepstriking but no rule to protect them when they do deepstrike. Think of a bike, going 24 inches, they get a 3+ coversave on top of +1 toughness (for being on a bike, not the overboost). if they had given BA a coversave to protect them from low AP weaponry (which there is a lot of these days) I would say they are OP, but as it is, the best build looks like a red IG tank line with no one getting out of tanks unless you have to...why make what is supposed to be the best assault marine army the best tank marine army. By moving baals to fast they did just that...

as jwolf says, ig is #1 and SW are #2...I dont agree with BA being #3 though

[AdamHarry]

Obliterators, Defilers, Higher Ld/fearless, Lash, Multipurpose basic troops, and of course: ABADDON!!!!!!


Fixed that for ya :)

[Aldramelech]

How about from an asthetic point of view? With Blood Angels and Space Wolves the poor old vanilla Marines are now looking somewhat dull. Why would you buy them?

[Lord Azaghul]

For my 2nd army I CHOOSE vanilla SM even after the new BA book game out. WHY? I don't like the fluff/names/models of either of those armies. I don't want to play space vampires and werewolfs, I've never thought either were cool or interesting, I'm also not 12. I can learn how to win with my SM.
Am I a little annoyed that vanilla marines don't have equal pricing on devistator squads, sure, but its not the end all be all. Baal Pred is a bit nuts, and the PnF in radious is as dumb as the Doom, but I remember people talking about how 'broken' the thunderfire cannon was then the C:SM 'dex dropped, and look where that's at now.

[DarkLink]

Am I a little annoyed that vanilla marines don't have equal pricing on devistator squads, sure, but its not the end all be all.

That's because GW finally realized that dev squads were way, way over priced, and finally made them cheaper.

[tyrant of khador]

Until you add in a priest, of course. While I know you're speaking in terms of battle plans, etc, I just don't think BA have any issues with survivability. Allow me to put it this way: 5 Assault Marines with a razorback is 120 points. Add in a Priest to get an extra half of your model count, (5+1+3=9). I suggest that it's not doubling your wounds because if you take 6 wounds, you're only saving three of those. So, the total cost of that comes up to 170 points. 9 assault marines is normally 172 points before factoring in a fast transport with a heavy weapon on it.

Sure, priests are ICs and that can be troublesome in CC, but his benefits don't require him to be in CC. Plus, mindwar, telion, or vindicare shenanigans can put a damper on him, so you keep your priest in a vehicle or nearby a psychic hood while still getting the FNP, FC benefits. So it really comes down to your opponent using mass plasma, missiles, rending to chew through all of those free wounds. With a bubble effect on the priests, it's such a huge force multiplier in terms of survivability for few points comparative to how many "free" wounds you get. The point cost initially seems like a drawback, but when you realize just how much that 1-wound model offers you between FC and effectively increasing your model count, it's actually quite a bargain.

I agree with what you are saying about sang priest and maybe how I worded my words didn't make sense, but my concern since BA got a new dex is everyone and their brother thinks they can just walk up and smash anyone in the face and win with them. Maybe I'm just on a soapbox (sorry for that too lol!) I just believe you can't just jam the guys in red down someone's throat and expect to win most of the time. I just believe the BA are like Eldar or (aka ju-juistu chess) where you have to be thinking 3 moves ahead. P.S. I'm not angry at what your saying cause I completely agree with what you said its just BA are not quite like they were back in 3rd ED like everyone remembers them to be.

[Image]

I agree with what you are saying about sang priest and maybe how I worded my words didn't make sense, but my concern since BA got a new dex is everyone and their brother thinks they can just walk up and smash anyone in the face and win with them. Maybe I'm just on a soapbox (sorry for that too lol!) I just believe you can't just jam the guys in red down someone's throat and expect to win most of the time. I just believe the BA are like Eldar or (aka ju-juistu chess) where you have to be thinking 3 moves ahead. P.S. I'm not angry at what your saying cause I completely agree with what you said its just BA are not quite like they were back in 3rd ED like everyone remembers them to be.

No need to apologize for anything, man. :)

Personally, I think that the BA have such an advantage because you can make everything exceptionally fast, while still being able to hit really hard in CC, and have great survivability. While I know that you pay the points for this, I don't think it's an exceptional cost, or even a cost that is detrimental. And, because of that speed, I think you really have the opportunity to offset your opponent's decisions by putting on early pressure (depending on the list your opponent has).

Does that break the game? I don't know. I don't think so, but so many advantages for an entire list has to matter in that conversation.

For the most part, though, I do agree with the list posted on BoLS of the top armies. I think SW and IG are stronger than the BA overall, but I consider there to be a pretty wide gap between the 3rd and 4th places, namely BA and Vanilla Marines.

[BlacknightIII]

Played Blood Angels in a 1,500 point match today and it was tough but for a codex I have only played two other times thats what I expected. They are very fast and hit very hard but I used my Tyranid ability to come into play almost wherever and whenever I need to my advantage to take out key units. Genestealers got Sang priests, Lictors took out vindicators and other tanks with 10 rear armor. A massive 30 man squad of hormagaunts came in the flank and held up 2 assault squads for 2 turns allowing me to move some of my heavier hitters to take them out.

It ended in a draw we pretty much took out everything on the board. Some genestealers and some assault marines were all that was left.

[Shagrath]

I think mephiston probably is op but only just he's just too much of a value, Abaddon however does give him a solid thrashing (something people don't think about at all imo)..but the rest of a codex is pretty ok.. a noob will write a terrible list based off the rule of cool and end up with 5 overexpensive units that get flattened turn three..Survivability is pretty bad regardless of sanguinary priest due to emergent point costs across the army it just adds up 1500 pt blood angels is not a fun list to make. There is truth be told alot of finesse involved in a list like this, do I put my guys in tanks and decrease mobility do I use jumppacks but get shot is this character going to help my list and how..etc..Synergy is key.

the only big op list I've come across is av 13 spam..

Infantry based seem to not be too bad balancewise.. if you were playing as chaos I would advise lashes obliterators demon princes cheap termies zerkers and plague marines..

[BlacknightIII]

Infantry based seem to not be too bad balancewise.. if you were playing as chaos I would advise lashes obliterators demon princes cheap termies zerkers and plague marines..

Those are pretty nasty to play against no matter who you are.

[Chris Copeland]

Maybe the Blood Angels will seem less overpowered to me once I get past the Holy Jesus, I can't believe GW lets a unit do THAT! stage... besides, we live in the age of Melta-Hammer... I guess that I should be able to melta away those pesky fleet Dreadnaughts... Copeland

[scadugenga]

My 'Nids are supposed to be a great hand-to-hand army but I'm left wondering how they can go toe-to-toe with a BA list...

cheers.... Copeland

Depends on what kinda 'Nid army you're playing.

Shadows of the Warp = harder for the nasty librarians (dread and otherwise) less of a threat.

Doom--well, it's the Doom. Where's the FAQ? :)

D-Leaper = screwing with high Ld psykers.

Tervi's providing FNP and spawning new units. Venemthropes providing cover saves in a radius.

HT's with Old Adversary providing the "preferred enemy" rule in a radius effect. (Imagine Horm's w/poison & Glands w/preferred enemy--generally rerolling missed hits & wounds.)

Bonesword/L-whip, or 2 boneswords for insta-death nastiness.

Nids are a very capable threat to just about any army out there these days. It's just a big switch from the last edition.

[the jeske]

D-Leaper = screwing with high Ld psykers.
IC mefiston aint one.


Nids are a very capable threat to just about any army out there these days
that doesnt use [takes in long breath] Rocket launchers , melta of anyform, plasma of anyform , powerfists of anyform . terrain of any form [no frags] , choosers of slain , inq+mystics . etc And while it is true that nids can stop[or at least hurt] an army build around psychic powers[like a lash build] the problem with SW or BAs the psychic powers are just support they may just as well kick nid butts without them . And before you ask yes I am a nid player.

[scadugenga]

IC mefiston aint one.

There are other ways to deal with Meph




that doesnt use [takes in long breath] Rocket launchers , melta of anyform, plasma of anyform , powerfists of anyform . terrain of any form [no frags] , choosers of slain , inq+mystics . etc And while it is true that nids can stop[or at least hurt] an army build around psychic powers[like a lash build] the problem with SW or BAs the psychic powers are just support they may just as well kick nid butts without them . And before you ask yes I am a nid player.

So, that's the bane of every other army out there too. *Everyone* is susceptible to AP3, Melta, Pfists & ML's.

Carni's get frags, and +2 I on the charge, making them go before Pfists.

INq + mystics are only available to Inquisitorial armies with the amended PDF's. (WH can still have inducted guard, but Marines & Guard armies can no longer take allied inquisitors)

YMMV, of course. I just don't see them as failing to be able to deal w/BA's. You should easily outnumber the BA more than 2 to 1, and synapse is easier to get now, and more survivable (Terv's, trigon prime) that you shouldn't have to worry about break checks.

[the jeske]

There are other ways to deal with Meph
BAs dont take regular librarians. So when you say death leaper counter librarians it is a moot point.


So, that's the bane of every other army out there too. *Everyone* is susceptible to AP3, Melta, Pfists & ML's.
but not everyone costs like a warrior or a nid mc . all meq have transports to block LoS , which means that even if they get totaly screwed over by dice and they are playing on glass plains table , they get one turn of their units not getting shot at. no such thing for the nids , and the fact that SW and IG or other meq armies , are spaming str 8 or 8+ weapons makes all units that can be ID unplayable . More the lack of +2 sv unit means that the high cost nid MC die from normal weapon fire and stuff like IG or SW long fangs blow them up ultra fast[with or without cover].



Carni's get frags, and +2 I on the charge, making them go before Pfists.
good luck getting a hth carnifex in to charge range against any proper build and played army.



INq + mystics are only available to Inquisitorial armies with the amended PDF's. (WH can still have inducted guard, but Marines & Guard armies can no longer take allied inquisitors)
only they changed that for GT , which more or less changes it back to how it was for most tournaments. + it was like that for the last few months.


You should easily outnumber the BA more than 2 to 1, and synapse is easier to get now, and more survivable (Terv's, trigon prime) that you shouldn't have to worry about break checks.
first of all I dont really get the harder part with trigons or tervis . meq armies are made in mind that they have to counter stuff like IG and LR rush builds . a trigon dies within one turn after it deep strikes .
as the out numbering thing goes . First unless the BA player is a new one and fell for the new and shiny trap and started to load up on sang guard etc he will not have a small army and if his army is like a SW one with normal number of models this means that nid synpas die before the meq army is brought down to a number of models when it cant play . And lets face it even stealers cant beat meq in hth , if there is cover on the table . guants just run. The sole fact that meq armies stoped taking flamers as meta joice proves that. They dont have to meta against nids with orks with stuff like flamers or whirlwinds , because it is too much a win more option.

[BlacknightIII]

If you march your Nids across the board like back in 4th Edition your going to get shot up and lose. You have to take advantage of your outflanking, deepstriking, and multiple different versions of infiltrate to close that gap incredibly quickly all the while the other half of your army marches up old school.

[the jeske]

You have to take advantage of your outflanking, deepstriking, and multiple different versions of infiltrate to close that gap incredibly quickly all the while the other half of your army marches up old school.
because we didnt use cover for stealers in 4th ed where then squads were 6-8 man strong and dies just as easy <_<.

ouflanking fails 1/3 of times . now meq can live with that , because they can run support anti tank everywhere . nids dont have that . if something fails to get in to hth on the turn it comes from outflanking .turn 2+ on roll of +4 , so to see a strong ouflank presence one would have to outflank with 4-5 units, on top of that the squads cant be 6 man strong like they were back in the 6th , because both the lack of frags and bigger size of squads used by meq armies means we need more models [even 8 man squads bounce of chaos ,BA or SW]. deep strike .the problem with it is that first hth units get a one turn down time . which more or less means they are dead on landing . this can be mitigated to an extant if we get more then one MC or anti tank unit on the same turn , but this again means runing 3-4 to be sure we see 1-2 turn 2 [and even then one will die and even if they wont they will get rhino walled] . And there is of course mystics +inq which means that sometimes one of the MC will get hurt on our own turn ... then they run in to rune staffs, psychic hoods etc and anti tank is back to how it was in 3ed . But at least doom smokes dudes in transports <_< .
infiltrate is dead as an option . when SW builds are popular and run chosers of slain which more or less kills the whole build durning deployment .
The whole 50/50 thing is even worse when you play against stuff like eldar or IG , which both are fast and have good fire power . 750 pts of nids for 2 turns vs 1500 pts of IG is = dead nid army.