Breaking the rules / Cheating

[Melissia]

This came up in (as of this post) the most recent BoLS blog post, and frankly I hate blog comment conversations so I'm moving it here instead.



For my part, I'm consistently annoyed by people claiming someone is breaking the rules than trying to backtrack saying they're not saying the person is cheating. That's the very definition of cheating in gaming-- violating the rules of the game. If you were to move your king as if he were a knight in chess, that would be cheating because you are breaking the rules of the game. If you were to claim every lasgun in a horde Guard army was a lascannon, that would be cheating because that breaks the rules (C:IG defines a lascannon as S3 AP-, not S9 AP2). If you were to use an aimbot in TF2, that's cheating on most servers as most servers have rules against it, and therefor it breaks them.

If a player is playing by RAW, they are not breaking the rules no matter what army they're using...

[DarkLink]

Right.

There are three or four abilities in the whole game (doom of malan'tai, for one) that make me think "what the #@%^&# were the designers thinking", but other than that if you play by the rules then no one should have any problem whatsoever with the core rules of your army, as in Sister's Acts of Faith.

[Gotthammer]

If you mean JWolf's comment about Acts 'breaking the rules', I took it to mean it in a hyperbolic sense rather than litteral - they are so unlike anything else in the game in execution (points pool, variable requirements for success etc) that a lot of players seem confounded by them at first.

It was to me like saying 'when you use acts it's like throwing the regular rules out the window', 'they can pull stuff that's off the chart', 'Sisters be totally wiggity wack' or somesuch.


But yes, in a literal sense breaking the rules (S9 AP2 lasguns etc) is the same as cheating to me.

[Torcano]

For my part, I'm consistently annoyed by people claiming someone is breaking the rules than trying to backtrack saying they're not saying the person is cheating. That's the very definition of cheating in gaming-- violating the rules of the game. If you were to move your king as if he were a knight in chess, that would be cheating because you are breaking the rules of the game. If you were to claim every lasgun in a horde Guard army was a lascannon, that would be cheating because that breaks the rules (C:IG defines a lascannon as S3 AP-, not S9 AP2). If you were to use an aimbot in TF2, that's cheating on most servers as most servers have rules against it, and therefor it breaks them.

If a player is playing by RAW, they are not breaking the rules no matter what army they're using...

1) Nobody claimed anything of the sort.
2) Nobody claimed someone, anyone, or anything cheated
3) You fabricated this
4) Jwolf used a completely non-controversial and rather common expression, and you somehow made it controversial

It is amazing how defensive you got over this. I've never seen someone get so defensive over absolutely nothing. Nothing said about you at all. Simply an innocent expression used about your 40k army.

Defensive: excessively concerned with guarding against the real or imagined threat of criticism, injury to one's ego, or exposure of one's shortcomings.

That's what this is. Someone getting needlessly and extremely defensive over absolutely nothing.

[Nabterayl]

Agreed on all points. Mel, I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I don't disagree with anything Torcano said either. There's a difference between saying that somebody is breaking the rules, and using the expression "breaking the rules."

I mean, if I say that Michael Phelps has a chance to break all the rules of competitive swimming, it's clear that I am not accusing him of cheating, right?

You seem like the sort of person who ought to be able to appreciate the distinction with only contextual clues for help. May I suggest that your distaste for JWolf and your hair trigger as regards all things Sororitas have confluenced unhappily?

[mikethefish]

1) Nobody claimed anything of the sort.
2) Nobody claimed someone, anyone, or anything cheated
3) You fabricated this
4) Jwolf used a completely non-controversial and rather common expression, and you somehow made it controversial

It is amazing how defensive you got over this. I've never seen someone get so defensive over absolutely nothing. Nothing said about you at all. Simply an innocent expression used about your 40k army.

Defensive: excessively concerned with guarding against the real or imagined threat of criticism, injury to one's ego, or exposure of one's shortcomings.

That's what this is. Someone getting needlessly and extremely defensive over absolutely nothing.

EXACTLY what I was basically going to post. Melissa - it's a figure of speech that gamers use many times to describe a something that has unusual abilities. It's not exactly uncommon. I'm sorry if it offends you ... well actually I'm not. Seriously Melissa - get a frikken' clue, or at least a thicker skin. Everyone knew what he meant. Your reaction was completely pointless

[UltramarineFan]

I think the problem here is definition. From what I've heard in warhamer-speak, breaking is not necessarily the same meaning as what is usually understood. If a unit is broken then it is not literally broken, as far as I can tell some people apply this to rules as well. So saying that a unit 'breaks' the rules isn't necessarily saying they are literally breaking the rules it is saying that the unit is no longer using the conventional rules as laid down in the BRB and is using other rules. That's how I understood the comment anyway.

[Melissia]

EXACTLY what I was basically going to post. Melissa - it's a figure of speech that gamers use many times to describe a something that has unusual abilities. It's not exactly uncommon. I'm sorry if it offends you ... well actually I'm not. Seriously Melissa - get a frikken' clue, or at least a thicker skin. Everyone knew what he meant. Your reaction was completely pointless

Yes, it's s figure of speech. It's also an insulting figure of speech.


You seem like the sort of person who ought to be able to appreciate the distinction with only contextual clues for help. May I suggest that your distaste for JWolf and your hair trigger as regards all things Sororitas have confluenced unhappily?There's no distaste for jwolf. I don't dislike the guy at all, and I usually like his posts.

[CitizenZero]

I wouldn't know, I don't read BoLS.

[Nabterayl]

There's no distaste for jwolf. I don't dislike the guy at all, and I usually like his posts.
My mistake then.

[BuFFo]

I think this is the first time Melissa has ever posted and hasn't attempted to shoe horn Witch Hunters in somewhere.

Bravo!

[Aldramelech]

Perhaps a "PM" conversation with Jwolf would be a better idea.

It is clear that you feel insulted, but I'm sure thats not his intent.

Hazard of the typed word, things can so easily be misunderstood.

[Denzark]

try as I might even with my most paranoid communist china/russia head on I can't make anything outrageous or insulting out of the statement - I can't even understand it, its poor English (typing too fast for grammar nazzism here but if its from the blog, no excuse)

[DarkLink]

Perhaps a "PM" conversation with Jwolf would be a better idea.

It is clear that you feel insulted, but I'm sure thats not his intent.

Hazard of the typed word, things can so easily be misunderstood.

I don't think that she felt this was an issue between her and Jwolf. I think she felt that, in general, the attitude that some units/armies break the rules of the game is a bad one, and so she started a public thread to bring it up.

[Aldramelech]

Yes, it's s figure of speech. It's also an insulting figure of speech.


I don't think that she felt this was an issue between her and Jwolf. I think she felt that, in general, the attitude that some units/armies break the rules of the game is a bad one, and so she started a public thread to bring it up.

Sounds insulted to me........

[Commissar Lewis]

Eh, the Sisters' Acts aren't breaking the rules - they are merely special exceptions in certain situations. Yeah, I'd chalk it up to a poor choice of phrasing on Jwolf's part. He's pretty cool, so I doubt it was intentional.

Now someone pulling the 3+ invul one right after taking wounds, now that's cheating.

[BuFFo]

Sounds insulted to me........

If she got insulted by Jwolfs opinion online, that in no way affects her in real llife gaming, then the problem isn't with Jwolf.

Jwolf phased his opinion just fine to some, and not to others, but lets not over sensualize the situation! lol!

[Melissia]

I am not under the delusion that Jwolf has intentionally tried to insult me or any Sisters players.

I don't think that she felt this was an issue between her and Jwolf. I think she felt that, in general, the attitude that some units/armies break the rules of the game is a bad one, and so she started a public thread to bring it up.
This is more accurate. There have been a few... altercations locally about this. One in particular involved someone claiming that Acts of Faith break the rules, and therefor are cheating. I took my codex out, and went, step by step, through the rules. And yet they insisted. So I stopped the game right there and put my army back in its case, and went home.

[BuFFo]

LOL

If people are trying to cheat in a game made for relaxing fun, I hope you slashed their tires after you left the store....

[addamsfamily36]

This is more accurate. There have been a few... altercations locally about this. One in particular involved someone claiming that Acts of Faith break the rules, and therefor are cheating. I took my codex out, and went, step by step, through the rules. And yet they insisted. So I stopped the game right there and put my army back in its case, and went home.

I had something similar happen to me. Can't rmember the exact details, but as a compromise he suggested i didnt use my death company (it was this unit in question) so i said fine as im not a fan of being called a cheat, removed 9 jumpack death company and lemartes so around about 450-500 points and still won the game. :D

Wiped the smirk off his face

[scadugenga]

I am not under the delusion that Jwolf has intentionally tried to insult me or any Sisters players.

This is more accurate. There have been a few... altercations locally about this. One in particular involved someone claiming that Acts of Faith break the rules, and therefor are cheating. I took my codex out, and went, step by step, through the rules. And yet they insisted. So I stopped the game right there and put my army back in its case, and went home.

This is why I generally don't like pickup games.

Hard to judge the asshat/maturity level.

[Shavnir]

I am not under the delusion that Jwolf has intentionally tried to insult me or any Sisters players.

This is more accurate. There have been a few... altercations locally about this. One in particular involved someone claiming that Acts of Faith break the rules, and therefor are cheating. I took my codex out, and went, step by step, through the rules. And yet they insisted. So I stopped the game right there and put my army back in its case, and went home.

Never forget you have a terrible hobby.

[Aldramelech]

I am not under the delusion that Jwolf has intentionally tried to insult me or any Sisters players.

This is more accurate. There have been a few... altercations locally about this. One in particular involved someone claiming that Acts of Faith break the rules, and therefor are cheating. I took my codex out, and went, step by step, through the rules. And yet they insisted. So I stopped the game right there and put my army back in its case, and went home.

Fair one.

This is all a bit of a mystery to me. In England (Unless you game at GW or a shop) the vast majority of players belong to established clubs, so dont tend to play with stangers. And within those clubs there tend to be sub sets who tend to stick together. Playing with like minded friends is a big part of the hobby for me, I really dont like playing strangers and the above is one of the reasons why.

This is another reason why tournaments hold no interest for me at all.

[BlacknightIII]

This is more accurate. There have been a few... altercations locally about this. One in particular involved someone claiming that Acts of Faith break the rules, and therefor are cheating. I took my codex out, and went, step by step, through the rules. And yet they insisted. So I stopped the game right there and put my army back in its case, and went home.

I have had similar situations like this and there is a phrase you use to make them shut up.
To bad I'm not allowed to post it on the boards.

I congratulate you on keeping your composure instead of arguing for half an hour with the "kid".

[Melissia]

If I wanted to argue online for half an hour I'd do it on the internet where nobody cares anyway.

[rbryce]

i just dont think a lot of people understand the AoF rules, as they dont see them often. had a similar sitch with divine guidance, 3 flamers and a group of necrons. i let it slide, as i dont expect everyone to know the rules for every army, but the next shooting-phase after it had calmed down, i went ahead and did it anyway, after some calm words and an issue of the WD i "happen" to keep in my bag.(its the Tank tactica one, they have a little box that specifically states that it does work that way). with the dexs for download from GW now, i forsee less problems like this.

[Melissia]

Not really, the codices appear to be causing MORE arguments than before.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Ive had the same problem in the past too, using an AoF is like cheating to some, they just dont understand it, wont take to the time to erad it, and finally unless they have it too its cheating.
I mean whats the point of having every army with the same tactics, do we just create armies that only shoot and bash each other with the only difference being armour and strength of special characters??

I only use Faith when its called for and appropriate, and still ive been accuses of cheating at my local store.
Its unique to the SoB and they dont want that, they think they should have that rule too. Good to see there scope of the game will invlolve generic clone armies of each other.
For a 3rd ed army, i still hold my own against 5th ed armies now, thye have stronger characters, more units, updated rules and weapons, and we have Faith, outdated weapons, rules and what two characters only. So ofcourse we cheat using AoF. Its frustrating to the core.
Ive packed up games, wanted to throttle some players and downright get rightfully P%$ed off with some claiming i cheat using AoF.
But i still play with my loved SoB army, ive spent to much money, to many hours painting and converting and to much love for them to throw it away.
I respect each army, the players too, i even forgive GW for making uber characters....well maybe i dont, but i dont say there armies are cheesy or cheating, its unsportsmanlike.

[rbryce]

yeah, its not fun, but i found that by carrying a WD with a paragraph that explicitly states that divine guidance works with flamers helps smooth things over. The problem with the actual rule is it states the test is taken after rolling to hit, and flamers dont roll to hit. as to it being a sisters only thing, i like to point out guard orders, space marine ATSKNF etc. as being unique to those armies.

[Lerra]

I've seen this sort of conversation happen in my FLGS fairly often, and it's usually a clash between two groups of people: those who take accusations of cheating very seriously, and those who use the word "cheat" very loosely.

It's a personal pet peeve when people say things like: "Vulkan He'stan is so good, taking him is basically cheating." Or in a recent blog comment thread here, I was accused of cheating when I mentioned that I intend to keep playing with my radical inquisition allies. I've seen people be accused of cheating for all kinds of silly things, including acts of faith, necrons with we'll be back, IG orders, and tau markerlights. It seems like any army special rule that is useful is "cheating."

[Marshal2Crusaders]

What is hard to understand about rolling for buffs for a turn? With a clearly defined pool of faith points?

[Melissia]

What is hard to understand about rolling for buffs for a turn? With a clearly defined pool of faith points?

Not even a turn. Just a single phase!

[Jwolf]

Sweet mother of god, I can't believe you people have the time and energy to get upset over things like this. "Breaks all the rules" is a common phrase used to mean "has abilities outside of the norm and uses them advantageously."

Here are the first 5 different uses I find in a google search:

A book on successful managers
A description of how unexpected candidates won in Arkansas senate races
Discussions of successful managers and business strategies
Buisness innovations in India
Personal story of rules to live by from a female scientist, and how breaking them all was a good thing.

In no case is the phrase used to describe anything dishonest or shady, and in 4 of the 5, the phrase is a positive comment on doing things differently contributing to success.

If you want to demand that every phrase be examined to be certain that no one, no matter how obtuse, can take offense, you're in the wrong place (the internet, on an entertainment / hobby blog). Please found your own religion or something and leave the rest of the world in peace.

[Melissia]

"Breaks all the rules" is a common phrase used to mean "has abilities outside of the norm and uses them advantageously."
That is a very uncommon definition.

[BlacknightIII]

The problem with you example JWolf is that all of those situations are not based on a bound set of rules that we all must follow. They are based on people who don't follow the usual routes to success and instead find a new way to become successfull.

Doctor House breaks all the rules and while a mad man is a very successful doctor.

A kid at our local store breaks all the rules playing Fantasy and now we refuse to play against him because were tired of him making excuses for cheating while still claiming to know every rule in the 7th ed rulebook.

Same phrase different meaning for different situations.

[Leez]

The problem with you example JWolf is that all of those situations are not based on a bound set of rules that we all must follow. They are based on people who don't follow the usual routes to success and instead find a new way to become successfull.

Doctor House breaks all the rules and while a mad man is a very successful doctor.

A kid at our local store breaks all the rules playing Fantasy and now we refuse to play against him because were tired of him making excuses for cheating while still claiming to know every rule in the 7th ed rulebook.

Same phrase different meaning for different situations.

If I may, I think Jwolf's examples are spot on for the meaning he intends. "Breaks all the rules." has two solid meanings. Both are about breaking all the rules, which sounds weird, but what I am getting at is which rules. In as much as both he and Melissia are both right and simply not talking about the same thing.

There are the actual rules as set down in the rulebook, a pretty cut and dry meaning for rules in "Breaks all the rules." The other version of rules are the ones made by scrubs. There's a lovely article floating around the internet, quite old now, about scrubs. While I don't quite agreed with everything it sets out, at it's core a scrub is someone who has set up, in their head, extra rules, rules that make the game "fair", again in their head. These extra rules are the ones "broken" in Jwolf's examples. Now I am most certainly not calling anyone a scrub, in as much as I feel his use of the "breaks all the rules." was very much tongue in cheak.

[BlacknightIII]

This is true but 40K has its own vernacular for people who "Break all the rules". Closest things to my mind would be people who play Beardy, cheesy or tailored lists.

[BuFFo]

This is true but 40K has its own vernacular for people who "Break all the rules". Closest things to my mind would be people who play Beardy, cheesy or tailored lists.

So why do people use these tags?

Beardy - This person used units in his army that I could not effectively combat, hence he was beardy.

Cheesy - This person used units in his army that I could not effectively combat, hence he was cheesy.

Tailored List - This person used units in his army that COUNTERED my units effectively, yet I was not smart enough to do the same, hence he tailed his list.

As long as a person follows the RULES, and created a legel list allowed by the FOC, the person could not be beardy or cheesy. If there is a problem with units, don't blame the player, blame the game.

Understandably, I know there is a difference between playing for fun and playing to win, but if you agree to play against a player with 9 Leman Russes and all you brought to the store was Hormaguants, and you nget flattened, you knew what you were getting into. You agree to play a powerful army. So the fault squarly lies on you.

[Aldramelech]

Sweet mother of god, I can't believe you people have the time and energy to get upset over things like this. "Breaks all the rules" is a common phrase used to mean "has abilities outside of the norm and uses them advantageously."

Here are the first 5 different uses I find in a google search:

A book on successful managers
A description of how unexpected candidates won in Arkansas senate races
Discussions of successful managers and business strategies
Buisness innovations in India
Personal story of rules to live by from a female scientist, and how breaking them all was a good thing.

In no case is the phrase used to describe anything dishonest or shady, and in 4 of the 5, the phrase is a positive comment on doing things differently contributing to success.

If you want to demand that every phrase be examined to be certain that no one, no matter how obtuse, can take offense, you're in the wrong place (the internet, on an entertainment / hobby blog). Please found your own religion or something and leave the rest of the world in peace.

Case closed. Next!

[Melissia]

No it's not, not while people use the term to continue claiming that the armies in question are cheating. Which they do. In fact, I know at least one person that quoted a BoLS blog using the phrase as proof that Acts of Faith are cheats and therefor can't be used.

[Squirrel_Fish]

Someone over the internet misinterpreted a figure of speech and someone else doesn't like the negative connotation attached to said figure of speech and is going to wage a crusade to stop it.

Oh noes, the internet is going to crumble.

On a serious topic, if someone can't get the concept of army rules that bypass the game's standard rules, then punch them in the throat and move on.

[Melissia]

Wait, one thread is equal to a crusade?

[BlacknightIII]

It can be if it gains enough following!

[Rapture]

This entire thread is just stupid. Why would anyone think that whoever made that BoLS post was implying that rules written a GW codex were cheating?

Even if the wording was confusing at first glace, no normal person should have any trouble figuring out the actual meaning after reading the post.

Seriously.

[BuFFo]

Seriously.

O rly?

[Melissia]

This entire thread is just stupid. Why would anyone think that whoever made that BoLS post was implying that rules written a GW codex were cheating?

Even if the wording was confusing at first glace, no normal person should have any trouble figuring out the actual meaning after reading the post.

Seriously.

I don't think I know of any single person who would call me "normal", nor do I feel any shame at this.

[L192837465]

(C:IG defines a lascannon as S3 AP-, not S9 AP2). .



Did anyone else laugh their ***** off like me when I found this glorious typo in the first post regarding RAW and cheating?

Also, this thread is retarded. Get a life. It's a game.

[Melissia]

Yes, I made a typo. Congratulations, you found out that humans aren't perfect.

[L192837465]

Yes, I made a typo. Congratulations, you found out that humans aren't perfect.

You aren't perfect? Does that mean I can have a differing opinion to yours without you freaking out all over everyone elses threads?



\Please?

[Aldramelech]

Wait, one thread is equal to a crusade?

Your whole life is a Crusade!


I don't think I know of any single person who would call me "normal", nor do I feel any shame at this.

You go girl!


Yes, I made a typo. Congratulations, you found out that humans aren't perfect.

But you are Mel, you are...........

[Rapture]

I don't think I know of any single person who would call me "normal", nor do I feel any shame at this.

I meant 'normal' as in 'not mentally challenged'.

[Melissia]

I meant 'normal' as in 'not mentally challenged'.

There are those that would argue that as well.

[Shagrath]

I have a large amount of experiences with cheating...My dislike of templar players stems from my best friend basically being an over competitive jackass every time we play..This ranges from rolling behind terrain (because if helbrect dies the world is unfair,) to new units magically appearing behind terrain, and not telling people what hes rolling for/ what equipment people have/what vow. I believe at one point he tried to kill mephiston with a meltabomb.

I don't play him anymore...After a recent string of victories with the blood angels codex (which is the most unfair and broken thing ever, he's a horrid loser as well.)

[Milquetoast]

Sweet mother of god, I can't believe you people have the time and energy to get upset over things like this. "Breaks all the rules" is a common phrase used to mean "has abilities outside of the norm and uses them advantageously."
.................................................. ...............................

If you want to demand that every phrase be examined to be certain that no one, no matter how obtuse, can take offense, you're in the wrong place (the internet, on an entertainment / hobby blog). Please found your own religion or something and leave the rest of the world in peace.


I think it's rather ignorant to assume that people on a blog would not have the time to take you to task for something they deem to be unacceptable. And, as far as your demand for the nitpickers to found their own religion or something, perhaps it would be better to just be a bit more careful with what you type. I find it baffling that some wish to lay the blame entirely on others- are you so sure that you are entirely innocent in any of this? Is it really everyone else's fault this got out of hand?

[Aldramelech]

I think it's rather ignorant to assume that people on a blog would not have the time to take you to task for something they deem to be unacceptable. And, as far as your demand for the nitpickers to found their own religion or something, perhaps it would be better to just be a bit more careful with what you type. I find it baffling that some wish to lay the blame entirely on others- are you so sure that you are entirely innocent in any of this? Is it really everyone else's fault this got out of hand?

Your new here aren't you? :rolleyes:

[murrburger]

Holy ****, guys.

This is serious business. Melissa took one thing Jwolf says, and started a whole Edrama over it. I'm not sure how someone could even be offended at what he said.

Do you use any rational thought, or do your just jump the gun and make a post bringing down the most respected person around? I'm not a Jwolf fanboy by any means, nor have I met him in real life. I've listened to him on 40K radio and I've read his articles. He seems very reasonable and polite.

So, just chill out. We all know you're a Sisters fangirl, but, godamn. Not everyone is trying to attack them or accuse Sisters of cheating.

[Melissia]

Hey look, someone's overreacting after claiming I'm overreacting! Doesn't everyone love hypocrisy?

[Squirrel_Fish]

Doesn't everyone love hypocrisy?

This is the internet.

[Shavnir]

Hey look, someone's overreacting after claiming I'm overreacting! Doesn't everyone love hypocrisy?


Sweet mother of god, I can't believe you people have the time and energy to get upset over things like this. "Breaks all the rules" is a common phrase used to mean "has abilities outside of the norm and uses them advantageously."


Never forget you have a terrible hobby.

.

[Cherub]

Anyone that took Jwolfs post as sisters where cheating is an asshat. Though if I gamed with melissa I would be doing that right now just to tick her off. Over and over again. I dont know what losers you game with melissa that think Acts are cheating but its ovious to us all that you need a new place to game. Maybe its the fact that the club I belong to has a good mix of armies in it, or maybe its the fact that to even get invited to game with us you have to be a good person to game with but I have NEVER even at tournies full of asshats seen anyone call AoF cheating.

So hats off to the people Melissa games with for being the most retarded people I have ever heard of that play warhammer.

[Melissia]

Oh hello there. How is your bridge today?

[Aldramelech]

Fine thanks?

[BuFFo]

Puppy dogs and kittens.

[Hyperion]

You know, in all fairnes, although the phrase 'breaks all the rules' generally refers to so called outside the box thinking and general innovativeness it doesn't usually get applied to things that actually come with rules attached. This was a poor choice of phrase.

[rbryce]

personally, i didnt read anyone complaining about jwolf, just complaining about how some people dont know your armies rules.Happens to all armies. i bet its happened to you at some point. Jwolfs phrasing was just an example. i think everyone has something to vent about with their army choice, wether it be accusations of cheating, or the line being all metal, or even all plastic(what can i say, im a sucker for pewter). What i think most find irritating is how every thread started by Mel ends up being a slanging match as some cant deal with just letting her have her say, and letting it all blow over. as to the rules in sisters breaking rules, it Does happen, whatever group your in, id hate to be the Space wolves player against me."im sorry, what exactly does JoTWW do? or nids and synapse. is this cos im an asshat(whatever one of them is), or is it simply that ive never played against them? its just the way it goes, and if it ever happens to you, just show the guy/gal the relevent entry in the dex, or the faq/errata(print it out, stick it inside the back cover of your dex, this clears soooo many problems), or the rulebook. Everyone WILL have had/are going have this happen at some point, its about being adult about it when it happens.