IA 8 Corrections

[energongoodie]

I got my Forge World news letter which contained a link to a pdf of corrections for IA8.
It includes the stats to bring the Elysians in line with the guard codex.
They even admit that they made a cut and paste error.
I have an Elysian army, and I wanted to buy this book. But I didn't because of these errors. It's a tiny little thing really, but if I'm paying a big chunk of change for a big chunky book I want it to be right.
Just wondered what you guys thoughts were on GW releasing a substandard, high end product?

[Melissia]

Give me a link to the pdf! :P

[energongoodie]

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/I/IA8QandA.pdf

[HsojVvad]

I think GW should be shamed in releasing a substanadard high end product like you claim. there is no excuse for not proof reading and catching any errors. No errors should ever be out. Just shows how GW is not really a quality company like they claim to be.

It looks more and more GW is really a miniture company like they claim and realy can't publish rules and codex to a profesional level.

But since we are still with GW what else more do we expect? It's expected for GW to frack up now.

[Nabterayl]

All Imperial Armour books have typos and grammatical errors that would be unacceptable for a high school research paper, let alone a professional company (and this despite a number of proofreaders in the credits!). Still, in many ways the production quality of the books is quite high. I agree it's embarrassing and to their shame, but it's not enough to detract from my enjoyment of the books.

[HsojVvad]

All Imperial Armour books have typos and grammatical errors that would be unacceptable for a high school research paper, let alone a professional company (and this despite a number of proofreaders in the credits!). Still, in many ways the production quality of the books is quite high. I agree it's embarrassing and to their shame, but it's not enough to detract from my enjoyment of the books.

I like that, work that would be unacceptable for a high school research paper, or any paper for that fact.

[addamsfamily36]

think GW should be shamed in releasing a substanadard high end product like you claim. there is no excuse for not proof reading and catching any errors. No errors should ever be out. Just shows how GW is not really a quality company like they claim to be.



I'm sorry , and i know im going to regret it, but this is UTTER BOLLOX!

Do you understand anything about design or prodcution?

As a designer, i can safely say that proof reading work, double checking it, getting others to check it to ensure no mistakes is a vital part of the job, however catching all the errors isn't always possible. Spelling is helped by a spell checker, but a computer only does the best to interpret what you might have meant to say. reading over text is one of the best methods, but humans make errors all the time.

How many people have ever read a novel and found a word misspelt? or had letters slightly the wrong way round? In fact i don't think i've ever read a publication without a Typo of some description.

Human error, is a hard thing to confine in any publishing or print medium. Especially after the print method had been finalised.

Qulity control might spot the mistake further down the Manufacturing process, but by then 10's of thousands of books may have been printed. You expect them to recall them all jsut because of a line of text?

One line of text or stats in what, 300 pages?


Thought you might like some links to examples:

http://shamefultypos.com/


On this one scroll down to the poster labeled - Print by Experimental Jetset
http://www.helveticafilm.com/shop.html#

Notice any missing letters in the alphabet on the right? and that was for a documentary.


Those are just a few print examples. What about films. they have bloopers and errors in them all the time, and yeh people notice them or point them out etc, but it still happens. And those are multi million pound movies.


And lastly, i know games workshop do it in their own publications, but forgeworld is a company within a company. It has no where near the amount of money put into it that the main brands and corporate identity of games workshop has.

[Gotthammer]

Normally I'd agree (two stat bar typos isn't really that surprising with the small staff), but this wasn't just a bunch of typos but some really bad omissions - the rules for two exclusive and potentially vital bits of equipment for the list were totally left out of the book.

No rules, no stats, just points in the unit boxes. Imagine if the last Marine codex left out any mention of Astartes Grenade Launchers and Locator Beacons in any way shape or form, but still had the option to buy them in the relevant units in the list, and you'd have the problem here.

[Nabterayl]

Normally I'd agree (two stat bar typos isn't really that surprising with the small staff), but this wasn't just a bunch of typos but some really bad omissions - the rules for two exclusive and potentially vital bits of equipment for the list were totally left out of the book.

No rules, no stats, just points in the unit boxes. Imagine if the last Marine codex left out any mention of Astartes Grenade Launchers and Locator Beacons in any way shape or form, but still had the option to buy them in the relevant units in the list, and you'd have the problem here.
I dunno, I think that's more indicative of the fact that the people who write Forge World rules kind of assume that the players will figure it out. I mean, "everybody knows" what an Elysian auxiliary grenade launcher and a locator beacon are. Similarly, consider all the Imperial Armour vehicles that have invulnerable saves, like grot tanks, mega-dreads, and Mantas. "Everybody knows" how a vehicle takes an invulnerable save, even though there is actually no rule that allows invulnerable saves to apply to vehicles.

That isn't sloppy. It's just a different (and from what I hear, very non-American) approach to rule writing.

Bad grammar, on the other hand, and bad spelling ... that is sloppy. I understand it's sloppy for a reason (no matter how many "proofreaders" are credited in the IA books, I'm willing to bet Warwick Kinrade essentially has to handle all the copy himself with no real editorial assistance), and I don't think it somehow makes the company a sham, but it's still sloppy.

[HsojVvad]

No excuses. Sorry, an excuses is an excuse. Just because there is spelling errors in other publications make it ok? It just means they are just as bad as GW is. I don't buy it. So that means all those proof readers can't do their job.

Imperial Armour is suppose to be an Elite publication. They should be help up to a very high standard. Human error? I can understand if it's just one person, but GW is a corporation, not just 5 people doing all the work. How many proof readers are listed in the book?

Let's also see, if they admit they copied and pasted an error, where is the play testing then? Shouldn't everything in the book be play tested?

So this shows me, not much play testing is being done, and not much proof reading is being done. Not very proffesional is it? It almost sounds like IA 8 is just like a regular GW codex now, and shouldn't be held to very high standards now. Definently not worth the $80 or $100 they ask for then.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to have a $100 book and a .05 cent paper beside it because of the typos or mistakes they made.

In the end, all and excuse means, they didn't do the job properly. Just because "everyone else does it" dosn't mean it's right.

[addamsfamily36]

I know you shouldn't have to make an assumption, and leaving things like that out then yes i agree with you, but are they unique rules, or are they the same stat lines for other grenade launchers etc?

I only ask, because i remember when u used to often get a weapon entry, and you had to search for its rules either in the main ruebook or in a different codex (main eldar codex and craftworld codex) for example. If they have presumed you own an imperial guard book, or other versions of imperial armour then i can sort of see their error, but yeh its not a great way of presenting rules.

[Nabterayl]

I know you shouldn't have to make an assumption, and leaving things like that out then yes i agree with you, but are they unique rules, or are they the same stat lines for other grenade launchers etc?

I only ask, because i remember when u used to often get a weapon entry, and you had to search for its rules either in the main ruebook or in a different codex (main eldar codex and craftworld codex) for example. If they have presumed you own an imperial guard book, or other versions of imperial armour then i can sort of see their error, but yeh its not a great way of presenting rules.
If you've got IA3 then I think it was pretty clear. Now mind you, I agree it's not a great way of presenting the rules, but for all I know I only think that because I'm an American :p I mean, it's not like it was ever for a moment unclear, at least to me.

As to HsojVvad's point, I think it is just one person. I just don't buy the "proofreader" appellation - and I note the conspicuous absence of any editor credits. And while the copy isn't worth £45, the pictures certainly are. I mean, look at the credits in these things ... very clearly, nobody at Forge World thinks of the Imperial Armour books as about the copy. Given that, I don't find it at all hard to believe that Kinrade is basically on his own.

[Lerra]

I'd guess that the IA proofreaders are simply co-workers or friends of the author without any editing credentials. A few years ago I was credited as a proofreader for a fantasy novel. I went to college with the author, and she was looking for any semi-literate friends to help her edit the manuscript. Almost all of the proofreaders were science and math/IT students, and I'm sure we let a few grammatical errors slip through (novels are long when you are tearing them apart sentence by sentence!).

That said, Forgeworld is large enough that they should be able to hire a proper editing team.

[addamsfamily36]

That said, Forgeworld is large enough that they should be able to hire a proper editing team.

yeh, but thats sort of what i'm saying, no matter how big the company, mistakes still slip through. I see it everyday, tv , film, newspapers, etc etc.

That doesn't excuse the missing rules, but in regards to typo's i don't see any real beef with them, aslong as it's not like full of them on every page.

[Mike X]

For a book that costs roughly $100, if not more, it had better not be missing any pieces of text or have incorrect stat bars. A rare typo is one thing, but if there's more than... about 5 typos in a book, its level of professionalism has dropped like a brick.

[Gotthammer]

Imperial Armour is suppose to be an Elite publication. They should be help up to a very high standard. Human error? I can understand if it's just one person, but GW is a corporation, not just 5 people doing all the work. How many proof readers are listed in the book?

They have four, including one who is a GW editor, Alan Bligh, and two names I don't recognise. And just because someone proofreads something doesn't mean they do the whole thing - Bligh might only have double checked the new rules for example (and he's one of the authors), while the other two might even be guys from the warehouse or some such like Lerra mentioned.

A limited run product doesn't mean elite. I mean not many people want to buy a fondue set nowadays, but it doesn't mean when you buy one it'll be made by Wedgewood. Not many people want rules for Knarloc pack mules either. Forge World is semi-independant from GW, so while they'd have to clear everything with the HQ (probably why the GW editor was a proofreader), they work on their own stuff by themselves, where it is only a dozen or so of them.



Let's also see, if they admit they copied and pasted an error, where is the play testing then? Shouldn't everything in the book be play tested?

No.


So this shows me, not much play testing is being done, and not much proof reading is being done. Not very proffesional is it? It almost sounds like IA 8 is just like a regular GW codex now, and shouldn't be held to very high standards now. Definently not worth the $80 or $100 they ask for then.

Well it is like a regular Codex in terms of content (perhaps more like the Campaign Sourcebooks) so I don't see why that's a huge suprise. HAve you ever seen an IA book? They aren't some mystical tome of pure gold claiming to be the distilled essence of 40k - they're a book filled with all sort of weird, odd and cool bits of vehicluar madness, tied together with a story of a battle involving them all.



I know you shouldn't have to make an assumption, and leaving things like that out then yes i agree with you, but are they unique rules, or are they the same stat lines for other grenade launchers etc?

I only ask, because i remember when u used to often get a weapon entry, and you had to search for its rules either in the main ruebook or in a different codex (main eldar codex and craftworld codex) for example. If they have presumed you own an imperial guard book, or other versions of imperial armour then i can sort of see their error, but yeh its not a great way of presenting rules.

I did a breakdown of the list on my blog (http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com/2010/05/imperial-armour-8-elysian-list-rundown.html) for a detailed response, but basically the Elysian list has no equipment summary - you're ment to use the IG codex with it for the weapon stats. However they included the stats for some equipment, like the lascutter and Tauros GL.
The AGL is a one shot Krak grenade, while the homing beacon allows re-rolls for deep strike near it (so is different from the marine one).

Overall the Elysian list felt pretty rushed, so I'm of the opinion it was done as the last thing in the book.

[addamsfamily36]

I did a breakdown of the list on my blog for a detailed response, but basically the Elysian list has no equipment summary - you're ment to use the IG codex with it for the weapon stats. However they included the stats for some equipment, like the lascutter and Tauros GL.
The AGL is a one shot Krak grenade, while the homing beacon allows re-rolls for deep strike near it (so is different from the marine one).

Overall the Elysian list felt pretty rushed, so I'm of the opinion it was done as the last thing in the boo


Hmm, possibly rushed. most likely realised they had room to fit them in, or that it made sense too. and possibly putting in all the equipment lists etc would take them over a page count or something.

Obviously i can;t say for certain lol just a possibly theory maybe.

I'm cutting them some slack personally. Independent company, had sales stolen by GW with the baneblade and the valkeryie kits in recent years. It's a large book. I've paid same price for smaller in terms of page count and actual page size. I wouldn't claim it to be an Elite book. It's for a specialist part of the hobby, and its low batch nu,bers are the reason for its high price. Very few people buy IA in regards to the whole gaming community.

[Gotthammer]

I dunno, I think that's more indicative of the fact that the people who write Forge World rules kind of assume that the players will figure it out. I mean, "everybody knows" what an Elysian auxiliary grenade launcher and a locator beacon are. Similarly, consider all the Imperial Armour vehicles that have invulnerable saves, like grot tanks, mega-dreads, and Mantas. "Everybody knows" how a vehicle takes an invulnerable save, even though there is actually no rule that allows invulnerable saves to apply to vehicles.

That isn't sloppy. It's just a different (and from what I hear, very non-American) approach to rule writing.

Well I'm not American ;) The thing is that the missing bits had rules in IA 2 and 3, so leaving them out this time was just bizzare. I think it was the Elysian list was done last and in a rush, given that's where 99% of the errors are.

[energongoodie]

Spelling mistakes, I'll allow. A few typos, no problem. It is tricky to catch them all.
Getting the RULES for a unit's stats wrong in a RULE BOOK, ridiculous.

I don't really care if they spell Commisar with only one 'm', but when they mistakenly give his weapon skill as 3 when it should be 4, then I care.

[Old_Paladin]

Wow, everyone needs to calm down a little and breath.
They are stupid mistakes, but mistakes happen; it'll be fixed for the second run of the book.

For everyone saying stuff like this doesn't happen in other high end productions... I wish I could live in your happy fantasy world. Why do you think most university level texts all have so many editions released (I'll give you a hint... it's not because of groundbreading research in its field). I have philosophy texts on their 6th edition (which means that typos and misprints have been missed through 5 seperate proof-reads).

[energongoodie]

Assuming it gets a second run.

[HsojVvad]

Calm down? Are you serious? Are you kidding me? I don't see anyone really getting excited here. Geez we can't voice our opnions? What has come to this world? Are we all idiots now? What is wrong with expecting perfection, when we as customers are buying it?

So the next time you buy a brand new car and you have to take in into the shop, it's ok, it was human error while it costs you a few thousand dollars to repair. So it is acceptable now to buy sub par products now is it?

I guess I am too old now, in my 40's to be expecting quality work. All I know if I let this many errors slip I would be fired from work. I was in the auto industry, and if I let one bad product slip, that would mean you car was leaing fluids, would you be happy? It was after all human error.

[addamsfamily36]

Calm down? Are you serious? Are you kidding me? I don't see anyone really getting excited here. Geez we can't voice our opnions? What has come to this world? Are we all idiots now? What is wrong with expecting perfection, when we as customers are buying it?

So the next time you buy a brand new car and you have to take in into the shop, it's ok, it was human error while it costs you a few thousand dollars to repair. So it is acceptable now to buy sub par products now is it?

I guess I am too old now, in my 40's to be expecting quality work. All I know if I let this many errors slip I would be fired from work. I was in the auto industry, and if I let one bad product slip, that would mean you car was leaing fluids, would you be happy? It was after all human error.

A few errors in a book compared to the safety of someone's life are two very different situations.

Plus cars have faults all the time, they either get recalled or parts replaced under the warrinty. In this case, Forgeworld have provided an update solving the problem. It's not like half the pages were missing or the ink was leaky.

Then again theres the fact that car manufactures are multi billion pound companies compared to forgeworld.

[Old_Paladin]

Calm down? Are you serious? Are you kidding me? I don't see anyone really getting excited here. Geez we can't voice our opnions? What has come to this world? Are we all idiots now? What is wrong with expecting perfection, when we as customers are buying it?

So the next time you buy a brand new car and you have to take in into the shop, it's ok, it was human error while it costs you a few thousand dollars to repair. So it is acceptable now to buy sub par products now is it?

I guess I am too old now, in my 40's to be expecting quality work. All I know if I let this many errors slip I would be fired from work. I was in the auto industry, and if I let one bad product slip, that would mean you car was leaing fluids, would you be happy? It was after all human error.

And the point of over-reacting is once again well founded...

In the lastest news, 17 people died in a 4 page pile-up due to the typo found in a tabletop game... oh, wait... people don't die from mistakes like that...


It was a few (basically only 2) mistakes... in ink. They have now released other things in ink that fix the problem.
I do feel a little bad for the people that put in advanced orders, to get a signed copy; it does take a little of that joy away. But those are the only people I feel bad for.

[Cossack]

The ork stuff is good - that's all that matters!

[Porty1119]

Hm...I have a Vulture, may have to pick this up :D