Necrons - WBB vs. Sweeping Advance

[Denzark]

Guys

I am interested in the above, for obvious reasons - do Necrons get to WBB from a sweeping advance? Below I give an excellent well reasoned argument on both sides by our very own Lerra (thanks fella), I would appreciate any extra thoughts and a quick straw poll.

I note that INAT FAQ says no, and says it is one of their famous 'rules clarifications', the GW FAQ does not mention it (surprised???)

So, here to Mr Lerra, I would appreciate any feedback:

As far as Sweeping Advance and WBB, it's controversial and there is no definitive answer. The sweeping advance rules say that the model is removed, but the Necron codex states "Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged."

To me, that looks like WBB prevents the models from being "removed immediately" as is stated in the Sweeping Advance rules. So every model in a squad that is swept down is damaged, but not removed, and they get their WBB next turn.

The counter argument is that under sweeping advance, it says that a sweeping advance can't be prevented by special rules. The counter-counter is that the sweeping advance is still happening, so it's not being prevented. It's just that afterwards, the results are changed a bit. The whole unit is damaged - they just aren't removed from play yet because of the WBB rules.

Another counter is that the sweeping advance rules say that the model is "removed", but the WBB rules only apply to models that are "removed as a casualty". So does sweeping advance cause casualties? I'd say yes, considering that the models are no longer part of the battle, and from a gameplay perspective, that's basically a casualty. There are no rules that tell us how to determine if a model is a casualty or not, so I tend towards the simple answer. If the model is removed and can't came back, it's a casualty. If you can get a kill point for removing it, it should be considered a casualty.

[SeattleDV8]

Incorrect, Sweeping Advance effects Units not models.
BRB pg. 40 "The falling back unit is destroyed" and again " The destroyed unit is removed immeadiately"
The entire unit is removed, not just the standing ones.
The downed Necrons are still part of their parent unit as shown in the Necron FAQ.
"Necrons who fail their WBB roll are removed
unless you intend to use a Monolith portal to
teleport the unit during the current move."
If they are not part of the unit then they would be unable to be teleported through the Monolith.
Also downed models are moved with the parent unit when Falling Back with a Res Orb. as they are still part of the unit.
Sweeping Advance is one of the few rules that over ride Codex rules.
BRB pg 40 " Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage......"

A special rule must have specific wording (like ATSKNF does) to over-ride Sweeping Advance , WWB does not have that wording.
Side note: the rule is unchanged from 4th Ed except for the example:
" No Invulnerable Save or any other special rule (such as the Necrons' We'll Be Back special rule) can save the unit at this stage....."'

[Nabterayl]

I say no. SeattleDV8 makes a good point about the unit being removed rather than a model, but in addition to that, I disagree with Lerra that the victims of a Sweeping Advance are most likely casualties. It seems to me that the rulebook is actually surprisingly good at specifying when models are removed as casualties, so it seems most natural to me to read the absence of that word in the Sweeping Advance rules as indicating that Sweeping Advance victims are not casualties.

[SeattleDV8]

Casualties in game terms are models that suffer unsaved wounds (BRB pg.15 -6th bullet)
Also Pg. 20 Take Saving Throws "....and a model of your choice is removed as a casualty for each faliure."
Sweeping Advance does not target or cause wounds to models, it destroys Units.

[Rusty Nail]

I was about to say exactly what Mr DV8 said - units not models makes all the difference

[karandras]

I agree with DV8 and Nabterayl.

I play Necrons and have never taken WBB on units wiped out by Sweeping Advance.

Granted this is the single most detrimental effect of 5th edition on the Necron army.

Presumably this will be addressed when they get their new codex. Replacing WBB to a slightly boosted FNP would solve this and other issues as well as streamline the army. I would like to see Necron WBB represented by either a 3+ FNP or standard FNP but with the PW, AP1, AP2 caveat removed.

[Necron_Lord]

I have to agree with what has been said. I'm a Necron player too, and have never used WBB for Sweeping Advance. The Sweeping Advance rule in the 40K rulebook says that saves and other rules cannot override Sweeping Advance unless explicitly stated as in ATSKNF.

[BuFFo]

I note that INAT FAQ says no....

No offense to you in anyway, shape or form, but, who gives a sh!t? :eek:

I voted Yes. Not because of any stance I have with how the rules are read, but rather I want Necron players to PLAY the game.

Maybe if more people felt this way Necron players would still be playing. I don't understand why non Necron players feel the urge to completely disregard the 'fun' of the game, and ability to play the game, from other players.

Three Necron players in my area have stopped playing last year. Two have dropped from the hobby entirely.

Really pathetic actually.

Now I am sure some of you still see a Necron player once or twice a year, but I have already stated that I have seen and known of friends who do not play anymore because of this 5th edition change. Yeah, they aren't leet enough to power game 3 Monoliths and Destroyers like the remaining 4 Necrons players on Earth, so I guess that makes them noobs for not being able to handle phase out on thurn 3 by CC oriented armies.

[entendre_entendre]

Mr Lerra

I took a break from here for a while, so... did I miss something? Isn't Lerra a woman? Or is this just brit humour that no one else understands? Or am I just really tired? The possibilities are endless!

OT: sweeping advance would kill those crons because the unit is dead, not the models.

[BuFFo]

Just to clarify..

As far as the rules go, I would vote No, like the rest of the smart posters on here....

Instead I voted yes, for the reason given in my previous post.

[Tynskel]

Just to clarify..

As far as the rules go, I would vote No, like the rest of the smart posters on here....

Instead I voted yes, for the reason given in my previous post.

That's actually something I would like to try...
If I could find Necron Players to PLAY WITH!

The rules changed so dramatically for the Necrons---- it seems to me that it would be worth trying the a 'house rule' and seeing how the performance of the Necrons changes if they can get WBB after Sweeping Advances.

I think that a Resurrection Orb would work quite nicely in this instance--- they allow WBB when one normally cannot get one. As long as all other rules are followed---like another Necron within 6" for example.

[BuFFo]

Yeah!

Whenever I bring up the fact that Necron players in my area have stopped playing the game entirely, here on the interwebs, people cry fowl and accuse me of making mountains out of mole hills.

It is very true that the Necron players I know do not play the game anymore.

Sadly enough, I didn't mind it if they played their Necrons without even the phase out rule, but too many stuck up sh!theads in my area always wants things to be 'official' all the time.

Yeah, what a load of bull. It is okay to be 'official' as long as it benefits them.

[Mike X]

Yeah!

Whenever I bring up the fact that Necron players in my area have stopped playing the game entirely, here on the interwebs, people cry fowl and accuse me of making mountains out of mole hills.

It is very true that the Necron players I know do not play the game anymore.

Sadly enough, I didn't mind it if they played their Necrons without even the phase out rule, but too many stuck up sh!theads in my area always wants things to be 'official' all the time.

Yeah, what a load of bull. It is okay to be 'official' as long as it benefits them.

For the first time in years, I saw one Necron army at my LGS last week, which was taking part in a massive Apocalypse/Planetstrike battle. Before then, I'd never seen anyone field them in person.

[MaxKool]

Ive had ma necrons for a while, I still play them. I still let everyone bend me over with the rules...

I have found ways to win, But I gotta be hella smarter than my opponent. If u follow the rules exactly basicly necrons become the most unforgiving army as ONE mistake will start the cascade that ends the game next turn.

Ive asked people and everyone likes to win, so no one wants to use house rules...

So NO I guess I dont think u get a WBB on a Sweep.... wish u did tho...


Im currently playing in the qualifying round for a local tourniment... its not going so well against all the power gamers... I guess everyone likes to feel good kicking my army into the ground every game.


If I cant pulll somthing respectable out this will be the LAST time I play my crons till a new book comes..

What I find is no matter the popularity, GW should be ashamed and slapped around for having us wait a frikkin decade... The models are fine, give me new rules, Update them with a PDF SOMTHING, just make us able to have some fun...

[Whoop!]

But necrons in a destroyed unit can still WBB if there is another unit of the same type within 6", and they join that unit.

I don't see where the problem is. Casualty is not a term defined by GW, so I don't see why SA victims are not casualties. I KNOW the unit is dead, but the models may WBB to join a different unit (on the off chance that there is a unit of the same type within 6"). The unit is destroyed, the models removed as casualties. Clear as can be!;)
Why is this not in the Necron FAQ?

[wkz]

Yeah!

Whenever I bring up the fact that Necron players in my area have stopped playing the game entirely, here on the interwebs, people cry fowl and accuse me of making mountains out of mole hills.

It is very true that the Necron players I know do not play the game anymore.

Sadly enough, I didn't mind it if they played their Necrons without even the phase out rule, but too many stuck up sh!theads in my area always wants things to be 'official' all the time.

Yeah, what a load of bull. It is okay to be 'official' as long as it benefits them.

I have a Necron army. I have mothballed the Necron army. This does suck. The game IS not balanced especially for the 'crons.

BUT IMO, that is NO EXCUSE to say "FARK the RULES, I WILL BREAK IT for the FUNZ". That is against the spirit of any game system ever made... its almost like saying "I'm allowed a stool to stand on in the tennis court, because the game favors tall people and I'm short."

If you've instead said "I'll houserule it", which is 100% in the spirit of GW's games and even written into the "Most Important Rule" somewhere, I'm ok with this. I'm ok with it for any game, if its for friends-only, everyone knows exactly what the houserules say and the houserules are built for fun and not powergaming, its fine in my book.

But I will take offense to "breaking the rules because of fun, and heck *** to the general community out there".


But necrons in a destroyed unit can still WBB if there is another unit of the same type within 6", and they join that unit.

I don't see where the problem is. Casualty is not a term defined by GW, so I don't see why SA victims are not casualties. I KNOW the unit is dead, but the models may WBB to join a different unit (on the off chance that there is a unit of the same type within 6"). The unit is destroyed, the models removed as casualties. Clear as can be!;)
Why is this not in the Necron FAQ?

Go read the rules (and/or this thread) again. There's a single innocent sentence in the rules which says to the effect of "no amount of special dohicky you have can save you now!! MUHAHAHA!!"

[Orminah]

Go read the rules (and/or this thread) again. There's a single innocent sentence in the rules which says to the effect of "no amount of special dohicky you have can save you now!! MUHAHAHA!!"

Actually, since he brought that point up, I think it's farily reasonable to assume that it's at least worth a 4+. I'm going to call this "4+" worthy; because I'm a nice guy.

[Demonus]

necron player here and I voted no. however i see someone brought up the SW FAQ where it reads that against his "removed from play" ability, necrons can WBB, so I guess it could go either way.

hopefully in 3-5 months, necrons will be fearless or stubborn and phase out if they fail, so we never need to argue about it again :)

[SeattleDV8]

hopefully in 3-5 months, necrons will be fearless or stubborn and phase out if they fail, so we never need to argue about it again :)

Amen brother, here's hoping they do a good job and we'll see more people playing them.

[Tynskel]

No offense to you in anyway, shape or form, but, who gives a sh!t? :eek:

I voted Yes. Not because of any stance I have with how the rules are read, but rather I want Necron players to PLAY the game.

Maybe if more people felt this way Necron players would still be playing. I don't understand why non Necron players feel the urge to completely disregard the 'fun' of the game, and ability to play the game, from other players.

Three Necron players in my area have stopped playing last year. Two have dropped from the hobby entirely.

Really pathetic actually.

Now I am sure some of you still see a Necron player once or twice a year, but I have already stated that I have seen and known of friends who do not play anymore because of this 5th edition change. Yeah, they aren't leet enough to power game 3 Monoliths and Destroyers like the remaining 4 Necrons players on Earth, so I guess that makes them noobs for not being able to handle phase out on thurn 3 by CC oriented armies.

Yay!

[Necron2.0]

I hadn't seen this mentioned yet, so 'scuse if I overlooked it, but sweeping advanced doesn't necessarily mean any of the models in the unit were actually killed/wounded. A valid interpretation is they were simply scattered or driven from the battle field. A unit driven off the board cannot WBB to see if it comes back on, even though the opposing player would get a kill point for it, and/or a DE player would get a pain token.