Librarian Psychic power gate of infinity

[Baka]

If the Librarian joins a squad of terminators with transport, can Gate work on the transport too?

[SeattleDV8]

No, the transport is a seperate unit and can never be joined, only embarked upon.

[karandras]

agreed

[Baka]

Ok so as you say the landraider is a seperate UNIT and Gate of Infinity says may take any unit he is with. So can he then take the landraider after the terminators have disembarked? Am I reading too much into the rule?

[Nabterayl]

Ok so as you say the landraider is a seperate UNIT and Gate of Infinity says may take any unit he is with. So can he then take the landraider after the terminators have disembarked? Am I reading too much into the rule?
I think you are reading too much into the rule, yes. You're quite right that the rule is poorly worded, as it isn't immediately clear what "with" means. However, I think we have good cause to read "any unit he is with" as "any unit he has joined." If "with" simply meant proximity (which is the only reasonable sense in which he is "with" the Land Raider), then it would be possible for a librarian to be "with" any number of units (imagine arranging six squads in pie slice formations around a librarian at the center, for instance). However, later on the rule speaks of "the unit" that he is with, which indicates that "any unit he is with" can only refer to one unit at a time. So how are we to tell, of the many units that a librarian could be close to, which one he is "with?" It seems to me that using the unit he has joined is the only reasonable way.

[Baka]

I understand, and still think that unit also refers to the Landraider. It is in its self a unit for it takes up one slot and has unit composition and type in its description.

[Archon Charybdis]

We just had this argument in an Eldar thread in regards to a Shadowseer's Veil of Tears ability applying to the unit it is "with". I think my response there is still basically appropriate.

"That's a pretty flimsy argument though. You're creating a technical definition for the word "with" that doesn't exist in the core rulebook. I'll be honest, there's nothing in the rules to disprove your claim that "with" also implies "embarked on." Similarly, there's nothing in the rules that disproves my claim that "with" means "in the same army as," and that every unit I field should benefit from VoT as long as the Shadowseer is alive.

There are many abilities and psychic powers that could potentially apply to a transport unit. When they want this to happen however, they'll make a specific note of it, rather than use a common preposition to vaguely imply it."

Nabterayl pointed it out as well, if you don't assume "with" to simply mean "attached to" it's just far too open to abuse and clear munchkinry.

[Nabterayl]

I understand, and still think that unit also refers to the Landraider. It is in its self a unit for it takes up one slot and has unit composition and type in its description.
The Land Raider is undeniably its own unit, yes. The question is, in what sense is the librarian "with" the Land Raider?

[Baka]

Ok I will clarify it more, If the Landraider is a heavy unit that is carrying the Librarian, only him and the landraider. Forget the terminators. Can he then use Gate of Infinity to take any unit with him. He started inside and is within 1" of the unit (being inside). I know it sounds mine blowing, like the geek from school saying he has a girfriend in France! I most likely will never use it but when swarmed by a crap-load of Nids or Orks it sounds nice.

[DarkLink]

If "with" simply meant proximity (which is the only reasonable sense in which he is "with" the Land Raider), then it would be possible for a librarian to be "with" any number of units (imagine arranging six squads in pie slice formations around a librarian at the center, for instance).

That would be pretty awesome, though. And a terrific target for battlecannons and plasma cannons.

[SeattleDV8]

Ok I will clarify it more, If the Landraider is a heavy unit that is carrying the Librarian, only him and the landraider. Forget the terminators. Can he then use Gate of Infinity to take any unit with him. He started inside and is within 1" of the unit (being inside).

An IC cannot join the Landraider as it is a- BRB pg.48 "...units that always consist of a single model....."

We also know that the embarked passengers are a seperate unit from it's transport.

BRB FAQ "Q. Must passengers fire at the same target that
their vehicle is firing at?
A. No, they are a separate unit (albeit they are
temporarily co-existing with the vehicle) and so
can fire at a different target."
There is really no way to make it work.

[Nabterayl]

Ok I will clarify it more, If the Landraider is a heavy unit that is carrying the Librarian, only him and the landraider. Forget the terminators. Can he then use Gate of Infinity to take any unit with him.
Nobody is disputing that the Land Raider is a unit that is carrying the librarian. However, for Gate of Infinity to work on the Land Raider, it is not enough to merely be a unit. It must be a unit that the librarian is "with."

We've checked one of the two boxes (i.e., that the Land Raider is a unit). Now we need to figure out how to tell when a librarian is "with" a unit.

There are three options which jump out:
"With" means "in close proximity to."
"With" means "being transported by."
"With" means "joined to."
Most people favor interpretation #3, but it's fair to ask why. My answer is that #1 and #2 have serious problems. If #1 were the whole story, then a librarian could transport an entire army with Gate of Infinity, which is problematic because Gate of Infinity clearly contemplates the librarian only being "with" a single unit.

If #2 were the whole story, then a librarian could only take transports through the Gate - which could be the correct answer, but I don't think many people would consider that a natural reading. But if a librarian could take a transport and another unit, then we run into the same problem as with #1 - the wording of Gate of Infinity refers to the unit, singular, that the librarian is with.

#3 has no interpretive difficulties at all, which I think is why people pretty universally prefer it.

So that is why most people would say the rules prohibit Gate of Infinity affecting a Land Raider, even if the transported librarian is alone. The Land Raider is a unit, but it is not a unit that the librarian is "with" (assuming #3 is the correct interpretation of "with"), and the Land Raider would need to be both in order to be affected by the Gate.

[Baka]

–preposition
accompanied by; accompanying: I will go with you. He fought with his brother against the enemy.

First line of Dictionary.com, it only says with. Not joined, not embarked, not near by.

Any how I used the power and it worked in store game. Although the GM pointed out I had to roll scatter and perils also for the Landraier. Id did however land in difficult terrain and suffer a immobilized . It shocked and awed the other players into a frenzy enough to call for a ruleing and the GM, a Commando and 14 yr player stated it was legal.

[SeattleDV8]

I find that if one needs to use the dictionary to win a GW rules debate , you are generally on the wrong track.
When GW uses the term 'with' you will find that the in the context of the rules it will mean 'joined'.
Although a judge or GM may have let you get away with this I think that most people will be unconvinced and may impact the number of them that will wish to play you again.

[Nabterayl]

–preposition
accompanied by; accompanying: I will go with you. He fought with his brother against the enemy.

First line of Dictionary.com, it only says with. Not joined, not embarked, not near by.

Any how I used the power and it worked in store game. Although the GM pointed out I had to roll scatter and perils also for the Landraier. Id did however land in difficult terrain and suffer a immobilized . It shocked and awed the other players into a frenzy enough to call for a ruleing and the GM, a Commando and 14 yr player stated it was legal.
Consistent with that interpretation, would you agree that if a librarian used Gate of Infinity while within 1" of ten different friendly units, all ten units and the librarian would deep strike?

[DarkLink]

Ah, good old reductio ad absurdum.