Necrons - squad sizes

[Denzark]

I'm just after peoples opinion on how to run necron troops. I am concerned about their poor hth skills, and the easiest way to negate WBB seems to be to catch them in sweeping advance. I am keen to avoid this, so I see 2 options:

1. Max out 20 man squads. The enemy will probably struggle to kill this many, and if combined with trickery like a lightning arc jobby, this could be too big a bite to swallow.

I like th idea of a monolith in the enemy's face, with 20 troops warping out of it for 40 gauss shots. But it might be hard to get all 20 within 2" of the portal.


2. Min 10 man squads. They might get killed quicker, but if supported with depth positions of other necrons it could be useful.

I would appreciate any thoughts.

[Lerra]

From my experience, 20 man squads die almost as fast as 10 man squads. Usually necron warriors die when they get charged by something that is much better in CC than they are, they lose combat by a handful, and get swept. With 20 warriors, you have an extra 10 attacks defensively, but against Space Marines, those extra 10 attacks only get you an extra 1 kill or so. Usually that's not enough to prevent a sweeping advance.

Running more squads at a smaller size gives you more scoring units, plus it gives you more tactical flexibility. I'd recommend staying in the 10-14 range depending on how you build your list.

Also, if you're running a monolith, keep in mind that only 14-16 or so Necrons will actually fit out the front door if you try to teleport them.

[DarkLink]

Sweeping advances will kill a 20 man squad as easily as a 10 man one.

I'm not a necron player, but running a mere handful of 10 Warrior squads, and using the rest of your points on better units like Immortals and Destroyers is the way to go, as I understand it.

[BlacknightIII]

If you take massive squads you will need tomb spyders that way instead of a 6 inch WBB you have a 12 inch WBB and it goes with any unit on the battlefield. So if a bunch of crons die and are within the 12 inches of the tomb spyder even after a sweeping advance they get there WBB and will join the nearest necron warrior squad.

Generally my heavy choices are 3 tomb spyders and 2 max squads of heavy destroyers.

[Necron_Lord]

10 man squads are the way to go. Like someone said, the extra attacks you'll get by maxing out just don't cut it. Additionally, Warriors effectively only have a 12" fire range if you're going to move them - and since they are the only unit which can control objectives, they need to move at some point. The extra 180 points can get you 3 Destroyers + 30 pts Necron Lord wargear or 6 Immortals and 12 pts Necron Lord wargear or 3 Wraiths and 57 pts Necron Lord wargear - all better than the extra 10 warriors. I only have more than 10 warriors/squad if I have extra points and can't spend them on anything better.

[Denzark]

If you take massive squads you will need tomb spyders that way instead of a 6 inch WBB you have a 12 inch WBB and it goes with any unit on the battlefield. So if a bunch of crons die and are within the 12 inches of the tomb spyder even after a sweeping advance they get there WBB and will join the nearest necron warrior squad.

Generally my heavy choices are 3 tomb spyders and 2 max squads of heavy destroyers.

My italics - I thought that destroyed due to sweepingadvance and you got no WBB?

[CitizenZero]

My italics - I thought that destroyed due to sweepingadvance and you got no WBB?I agree, I don't believe you get a WBB from Sweeping advance.

I take my units of Necrons at the minimum, in 4th edition they had a bit more staying power...but in 5th, 20 will still usually get swept on 1 or 2 rounds of combat. The only other viable option in my opinion is to go with a screen of 10 man units as speedbumps, followed by slightly larger units behind.

Either way, you want 60+ Necron Warriors.

[Lerra]

60 warriors is way too many, imo. They are too static and too short range to take 60+ in a viable list in 5th ed. Besides, do you really want to build a new army with nothing but warrior models? The codex is probably getting an update in the next year.

As far as Sweeping Advance and WBB, it's controversial and there is no definitive answer. The sweeping advance rules say that the model is removed, but the Necron codex states "Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged."

To me, that looks like WBB prevents the models from being "removed immediately" as is stated in the Sweeping Advance rules. So every model in a squad that is swept down is damaged, but not removed, and they get their WBB next turn.

The counter argument is that under sweeping advance, it says that a sweeping advance can't be prevented by special rules. The counter-counter is that the sweeping advance is still happening, so it's not being prevented. It's just that afterwards, the results are changed a bit. The whole unit is damaged - they just aren't removed from play yet because of the WBB rules.

Another counter is that the sweeping advance rules say that the model is "removed", but the WBB rules only apply to models that are "removed as a casualty". So does sweeping advance cause casualties? I'd say yes, considering that the models are no longer part of the battle, and from a gameplay perspective, that's basically a casualty. There are no rules that tell us how to determine if a model is a casualty or not, so I tend towards the simple answer. If the model is removed and can't came back, it's a casualty. If you can get a kill point for removing it, it should be considered a casualty.

[CitizenZero]

60 warriors is way too many, imo. They are too static and too short range to take 60+ in a viable list in 5th ed. Besides, do you really want to build a new army with nothing but warrior models? The codex is probably getting an update in the next year.The issue I think is there are simply not that many units in the codex worth taking period. Every list I have any semblance of success with ends up having the same 4 units over and over...the reason I usually take the Warriors in bulk is because it sometimes makes the opponent hesitate before trying to go for the phase out.

[BlacknightIII]

No where does it specifically state that you don't get WBB from sweeping advance. As Lerra said if they are removed as a casualty you get a WBB. The reason you usually dont get a WBB against sweeping advance is because there is no longer another warrior model within 6 inches of the squad which is another requirement of WBB. If you have a Tomb Spyder within 12 inches and another warrior unit on the battlefield the model would get its WBB.

[CitizenZero]

No where does it specifically state that you don't get WBB from sweeping advance. As Lerra said if they are removed as a casualty you get a WBB. The reason you usually dont get a WBB against sweeping advance is because there is no longer another warrior model within 6 inches of the squad which is another requirement of WBB. If you have a Tomb Spyder within 12 inches and another warrior unit on the battlefield the model would get its WBB.I think the part of the rulebook that hints at no WBB would be on page 40:

"The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

I always felt that the "unless otherwise specified" part was only in regards to rules that specified they prevented sweeping advance, i.e. They Shall Know No Fear...

[DarkLink]

And since ATSKNF specifically states that Marines don't get sweeping advanced, but instead stand and fight. I don't believe that WBB says anything specific about sweeping advances.

[ZenPaladin]

I e-mailed Rulz Boyz and got Sweeping Advance perma kills Necrons no matter the situation.

I respectfuly disagree... but I abide by the ruling. Aparently most of the gaming universe does too.

I couldn't even convince my friends that the poor cron's need all the help they can get and letting them WBB in the case of sweeping would go a long way..

:(

[randyh]

Being sweeping advanced removes the unit from play, CitizenZero clearly stated that reason. It's pretty cut and dry so I don't see how anyone could disagree with it.

As others have stated 10 man squads are enough. I generally have 3 squads of 10 warriors.

[DarkLink]

To be honest, Necrons really aren't that weak, aside from a few key points like this. They're still frustratingly hard to kill by almost any other means, and can pack quite a bit of firepower.

They're just lacking variety of unit choices, and have to deal with the new glancing rules, sweeping advances and phase out.

[Highlander]

In my personal experiences against a friend who frequently fields necrons , small squads are best with as many elites and heavy support as you can cram in. He is definitely a "method player" who is out to harvest as many souls as possible. He doesn't win as often as others but he loves it, and that's a key part of the hobby, isn't it.

[Melissia]

I go with Lerra's interpretation. Otherwise my Sisters could destroy Necrons in close combat quite easily on the charge after heavy flamering them. Which feels wrong somehow...