Firing templates out of fire points

[40kAlex]

If I have a squad equipped with template weapons such as flamers, can I fire them out of, say, the top hatch of a rhino?

I ask this because, if the top hatch is the point of origin, then the only way to place the flamer template would be to place it such that part of it covers the hull of the rhino. If the unit inside is firing the flamer, is it disallowed from firing because the template is touching a friendly model? Or is this an exception to the rule that you can't torch your own guys? Is the rhino hit, which could theoretically damage it, or is it ignored?

What do you think? Can anyone reference any part of the rule book that would allow for template weapons firing from vehicles?

[Nabterayl]

Strictly speaking, you are entirely correct. There is no way to fire a template weapon from the top hatch of a Rhino that does not violate the rules for firing template weapons, and GW has never addressed this issue in either FAQs or errata. I think most people would allow it, but it is admittedly in direct violation of the rules.

Of course, so is firing a vehicle-mounted template weapon whose muzzle does not clear the hull of the vehicle (e.g., flamer-armed Immolators and Razorbacks). I think it's on that basis that most people would allow the violation - if you play this one strictly by the rules, I'm pretty sure that a flamer-armed Immolator can never fire (though I don't own an Immolator model to double check for you).

[DarkLink]

Right, it's not really legal, but if your opponent tries to refuse to let you do it then, well, smack him around or something.

[40kAlex]

After later consideration, and rereading the template rules, this doesn't actually seem illegal. When firing a flamer the template is actually required to touch the firing model, but cannot touch any other friendly models. This means that vehicle mounted weapons have no problem firing their weapons, which have the added requirement of measuring from the barrel of the flamer weapon, but still can be and in fact must be in contact with the template.

As for the squad shooting out of the rhino, although the unit inside has the flamer and the "fluff" has a marine pulling the trigger, the vehicle is in fact the point of origin of the template, so it counts as the firing model for the purpose of placement. Otherwise it would be impossible to shoot templates out of fire points, not because the template is touching a friendly model, but because the template is not touching the model firing it, since the model firing it is off of the table!

So we can safely conclude that template weapons can be fired both by and from vehicles, as in both cases the rhino/immolator/razorback is functionally the firer and so must be touched by the template.

[Nabterayl]

After later consideration, and rereading the template rules, this doesn't actually seem illegal. When firing a flamer the template is actually required to touch the firing model, but cannot touch any other friendly models. This means that vehicle mounted weapons have no problem firing their weapons, which have the added requirement of measuring from the barrel of the flamer weapon, but still can be and in fact must be in contact with the template.

As for the squad shooting out of the rhino, although the unit inside has the flamer and the "fluff" has a marine pulling the trigger, the vehicle is in fact the point of origin of the template, so it counts as the firing model for the purpose of placement. Otherwise it would be impossible to shoot templates out of fire points, not because the template is touching a friendly model, but because the template is not touching the model firing it, since the model firing it is off of the table!

So we can safely conclude that template weapons can be fired both by and from vehicles, as in both cases the rhino/immolator/razorback is functionally the firer and so must be touched by the template.
You know, I've thought about this rationale too, and in many ways I like it - it's certainly my go-to answer if somebody needs a technical reason why you can do what we all seem to agree should be possible. One thing bothers me, though: are we saying that the position of the template is theoretically unrelated to the position of either the fire point or the weapon muzzle, so long as the target can be seen by the fire point/weapon muzzle? I remember having this discussion in an earlier thread and I think the answer we came to was technically yes, but it still feels somehow wrong to me.

[jeffersonian000]

There is no specific rule in the brb that prohibits you from shooting a template weapon from a fire point, yet there are a number of rules that specifically allow it. Which means that yes, it is legal to shoot template weapons from fire points.

The basic function is this: the template is placed with the small end touching the firing model, templates fired from a vehicle are placed touching the weapon's muzzle, fire points count as the "weapon" for determining point of origin for weapons fire from an embarked unit, and at no point is a model considered friendly to itself meaning that the transport is considered to be the point of origin, not the embarked unit. Taken together, there is no specific rule that prohibits template weapon from firing from fire points.

GW has also implied that all units may use the rules specific to those units, as outlined by that unit, without restriction. This specifically means that template weapons may be use with/by transports, even if the weapon is turreted/embarked.

Let no one tell you otherwise.

SJ

[BuFFo]

If I have a squad equipped with template weapons such as flamers, can I fire them out of, say, the top hatch of a rhino?

Yes you can.

Anyone else who says otherwise is a complete douche bag.

There is no argument concerning this issue.

[lobster-overlord]

Anyone else who says otherwise is a complete douche bag.

There is no argument concerning this issue.


Yes, there is an argument. Is the person a vinegar/water douche, or a "mountain spring" douche?

[Mike X]

I agree with Buffo. It's no different, really, than an Immolator tank with its twin-flamer turret.

[BuFFo]

Yes, there is an argument. Is the person a vinegar/water douche, or a "mountain spring" douche?

Well...

Um...

Er....

I concede!

I was wrong in my assumption.... :eek:

[Tynskel]

Isn't the tank 'firing'. Because the model technically isn't on the table, so the tank is firing the weapon. In this case the fire point is the point of origin, and you touch the model with the flame template.

[Nabterayl]

Strictly speaking, no, the tank isn't firing. Page 66 consistently speaks of the passenger model doing the firing.

[Baka]

So how would that affect a Razorback w/ Heavy Flamer. Is it from the weapon or hull?

[jeffersonian000]

It's from the weapon. Remember, the firer is always touched by the template, but at no time is the firer ever effected by the template weapon itself.

In point of fact, the only turreted flamer vehicle that actually does have a conflict with the brb is the Sisters of Battle Immolator, which has two widely spaced heavy flamers firing as one. Per the rules, the template needs to be placed against the weapon muzzle, but which one? A common solution is to hold the template between the two muzzles; however, per the brb, we should first placing the template against each muzzle to determine which hits the most enemy models, then use that specific muzzle for the actual attack.

SJ

[Rusty Nail]

I could be wrong, (it happens a lot), but isn't the "range" measured from the hull of the vehicle anyway?

[Tynskel]

no, the the range is measured from the gun (for the tank) and from the firepoint (for the passenger).

[Rusty Nail]

I knew it was from the gun but didn't know/couldn't remember about firepoints, which man a certain Ork playing friend of my mine has been taking a slight advantage with his unit of 10 burnas in a trukk

[whitestar333]

I knew it was from the gun but didn't know/couldn't remember about firepoints, which man a certain Ork playing friend of my mine has been taking a slight advantage with his unit of 10 burnas in a trukk

Trukks are open-topped so there are no fire points. You can just simply measure from the edges of the vehicle.

[Tynskel]

Strictly speaking, no, the tank isn't firing. Page 66 consistently speaks of the passenger model doing the firing.

Yes, the model with the template weapon is firing, but the tank is the model from which the shooting occurs from, not the model with the Template weapon. In this case, the initial model touched by the template is the tank, and is unharmed by the weapon firing.

[Tynskel]

I knew it was from the gun but didn't know/couldn't remember about firepoints, which man a certain Ork playing friend of my mine has been taking a slight advantage with his unit of 10 burnas in a trukk

10 Burnas in a trukk!!! Shoooooooot that thing!! Don't let it get near U!

[Rusty Nail]

Trukks are open-topped so there are no fire points. You can just simply measure from the edges of the vehicle.

All becomes clear - including why I thought what I did earlier!

[Rusty Nail]

10 Burnas in a trukk!!! Shoooooooot that thing!! Don't let it get near U!

I do, but he's got a few other things in there that need dealing with as well!