CSM Hammer Unit?

[Lykum]

What does Chaos bring to the table in terms of the assaultiest of the assaulty? The guys that should stomp through the baddest guys your opponent can throw down. Right now I'm thinking, not much.
The best I can think of would be Abbadon backed by 4 Khornate Terminator Champions in a LR. 2 x Dual lightning claws, 1 chainfist, 1 combi-melta, and 1 combi-flamer. That should give you 22 pretty solid attacks standing still. Add the Land Raider with extra armor and you're looking at 750 pts for one unit. That can't be normal right?

So what have you guys seen as legitimate Chaos hammers?

[DarkLink]

Even if CSMs don't have a stand out hammer unit, they have so many lesser, but still dangerous CC choices that it's not a big deal.

[Connjurus]

Oh man do we have so many. Don't even bring Khronate Termies without anything but TLCs. 24 attacks on the charge + Abaddon's 0-11? Yeah that'll cut through a lot. Although I prefer Tzeentchian Termies with twin LCs instead for the survivability.

But that's even if you're bringing Termies. A much better hammer unit against MOST things would be Abaddon supported by an eight-man 'zerker squad.

Other than that, Daemon Prince can fly, reroll failed rolls to hit and wound, and are pretty damn customizable. Another thing to consider is a Khorne lord on a bike with a Daemon weapon. Hardly expensive at all, but that's a LOT of attacks. Sure, he might kill himself, but it's fun.

A bit more reliable hammer unit would be a Slaanesh lord with wings/jump pack and a Blissgiver in a unit of Khorne/Slaaneshi Raptors.

But I mean, why worry about Sledgehammers when we've got so many Ballpeens? We have three great Sledgehammers...and a ****-ton of Ballpeens. Our entire codex is pretty much geared towards survivability and close-combat.

[Lykum]

But that's even if you're bringing Termies. A much better hammer unit against MOST things would be Abaddon supported by an eight-man 'zerker squad.


So far I have really liked my 8-man squad of berzerkers. I have been using them with my poor-man's Abbadon which is a Khorne terminator lord with a demon weapon. The main hangup I have is mobility. Since neither unit can take the LR as a dedicated transport I find myself putting them on the board turn 1, embarking and going from there.

Do you usually throw them out there turn one or do you ever bother reserving the LR with terminators?

So I'll throw this out as a second question... what are the hammer units from other codexes you've run into and how did you deal with them? I've got no Blood Angels or Space Wolves in my area, so those are the guys I'm curious about.

[Angelofblades]

Berzerkers are the first thing to come to mind. The most reliable hamemr unit CSM have.

Meh on Khornate termies, no reliable, cost effective way to get them across the field, and often not enough of them.

Best I've seen yet, is 8 Zerkers w/ PF champ and 2 ppistols w/ Abaddon in a possessed LR (2kpts)

[Son of Guilliman]

I always run Abaddon and either 8 zerkers or 8 PM's in a LR. i don't like termies w/ abaddon cause they aren't fearless, and a couple bad rolls could cause my 275pt hq choie to head for the hills. I ALWAYS stick him in a fearless squad. I almost prefer the PM escort over the beserkers for one reason; toughness. 90% of the time, the squad will never get to swing, and if they do, their result will be negligable. I look at the squad as extra wounds abaddon doesn't have to take, so i want those wounds to be as tough as they can. Plus the 2 melta/combimelta combo is great for poppin transports and then lettin abaddon in on the warm gooey center. But as i have said, 'zerkers are not a bad choice by any means, i just prefer PM's.

[DarkLink]

I almost prefer the PM escort over the beserkers for one reason; toughness.

Well, why does anyone like plague Marines:p?

[Connjurus]

Well, why does anyone like plague Marines:p?

They're certainly not very pretty. xP

[Nabterayl]

You know, some people like guys with curves ... of intestines hanging out of their guts.

[eagleboy7259]

They're certainly not very pretty. xP

Its not whats on the outside that counts, its whats on the inside that really matters... and if those insides just happen to be hanging on the outside than you know it REALLY matters

[Son of Guilliman]

very true, kinda stated the obvious on that one. but the fact remains, PMs are awesome

[Grabnutz]

They're certainly not very pretty. xP

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think that my homemade Plague Marines are lovely, far nicer than those Slaaneshi tarts for sure :D

[Lykum]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think that my homemade Plague Marines are lovely, far nicer than those Slaaneshi tarts for sure :D

I'd probably have a go at eternal damnation for one night with a Deamonette.

[Bean]

Chaos can bring a hammer unit that is too big and too expensive to be worthwhile: i.e. Abbadon and Khornate Terminators.

Realistically, a unit of ten Berserkers, one of which is a champ with a power fist or power swords is more than sufficient as a hammer unit against almost every possible target. They're relatively cheap (all ten, including the champion, cost less than Abbadon) and if you really feel the need to beef up their hitting power, it's easy to drop one and add Kharn--who is quite the murder machine for his cost.

The Berserkers have several advantages over Terminators. In addition to being cheaper, they're fearless and they can ride in a Rhino. Most importantly, they're troops so they score.

There's really no question: Berserkers are CSMs preeminent hammer unit.

[Fellend]

Personally as a Black Templar player I'm more afraid of Slaanesh termies, hitting before me is just unfair.
After all the best defense is a good offense.

[erwos]

Plain-jane terminators with a few weapon upgrades can really do a number on pretty much any unit. The trick is taking a large squad (preferably 10) and deep-striking them somewhere appropriate on an icon. Given how cheap and plentiful icons are in the codex, you can actually count on deep-striking as an ad-hoc reinforcement mechanism if you orient your list around the concept.

I'm not saying they're more powerful than berzerkers, but they've got their charms.

[DarkLink]

Plus with IoT, that's 10 rather hard to kill Terminators. Then they just need a few Power Fists (or Chain Fists) and maybe an embedded character.

[blackarmchair]

Best CSM hammer I've ever contended with. 4x Termie Champs w/ twin LC and Mark of Slaanesh with Abaddon. Expensive but damn near invincible...

[ZenPaladin]

Anyone ever experiment with squads of Chosen? You can give the entire squad power swords and the mark of Slaanesh for a Chaos version of Howling Bashees. Throw them in a Rhino and give them melta and combi melta and out flank for a more fragile hammer that sneeks in and starts giving static shooty armies hell.

[Connjurus]

You can only give five of them power weapons. :/

[Lykum]

Anyone ever experiment with squads of Chosen? You can give the entire squad power swords and the mark of Slaanesh for a Chaos version of Howling Bashees. Throw them in a Rhino and give them melta and combi melta and out flank for a more fragile hammer that sneeks in and starts giving static shooty armies hell.

I like them as my ranged shooty guys, but I haven't considered them as CC guys yet. 2x Melta and one or two Lascannons in a squad of 5 works pretty nice. Icon of Chaos Glory helps keep em put.

[Daemonette666]

Anyone ever experiment with squads of Chosen? You can give the entire squad power swords and the mark of Slaanesh for a Chaos version of Howling Bashees. Throw them in a Rhino and give them melta and combi melta and out flank for a more fragile hammer that sneeks in and starts giving static shooty armies hell.

I have tried using them as a mobile Special weapons squad (like Sororitas retributors), and decked them out with melta guns and flamers, they worked OK especially mounted in a rhino, but they are expensive + 3 points for only +1 LD. I also tried using them as a Close combat unit, using giving them twin lightning claws and power weapons and 1 power fist, they smashed up one enemy unit, but were so expensive and they were then torn apart by concentrated fire power.

I like using noise marines with noise weapons, basic chaos marines with an icon of chaos glory to help with leadership, and both nurgle PM's and tzeentch TS's troops for their staying power, to hold objectives and as a meat shield (inside their rhino APC's).

If you need to kill an enemy quickly, send in a squad of Slaanesh raptors with a Chaos lord of Slaanesh with a daemon weapon, or maybe a daemon lord with lash of Submission to pull the enemy out of cover for the rest of your troops to shoot them down before you move in for the kill in close combat.

I find a Doom Siren works well to kill off troops in power armour who hide in cover. Its just the pesky ones in Artificer armour or Terminator armour that tou then have to spend time killing off with power weapons.

[titan eddy]

Kharn the betrayer with beserkers really mess up most armies if u can get close enough to get in assualt.

If you can summon a greater daemon and get him in close combat he messes people up

stats for greater daemon

ws-8 bs-0 s-6 w-4 i-4 ld-10 sv- 4+ invulnerable.
other than those there isnt really any

[Connjurus]

Kharn the betrayer with beserkers really mess up most armies if u can get close enough to get in assualt.

If you can summon a greater daemon and get him in close combat he messes people up

stats for greater daemon

ws-8 bs-0 s-6 w-4 i-4 ld-10 sv- 4+ invulnerable.
other than those there isnt really any

Except, y'know, Abaddon.

Typhus is also often overlooked as a "hammer" unit, but definitely has his place amongst that list since he a Daemon-Force Weapon at I:5, and also is one of the few Terminator-armor equipped models in the game that counts as having offensive grenades.

[Kungfuhustler]

Not only is typhus a survivable, grenade toting terminator of doom, but he slays tyranid monsterous creatures like a champ! It's nice to have a poison (4+) power weapon that inflicts instant death on an auto-confirmed psychic test.

[blackarmchair]

Not only is typhus a survivable, grenade toting terminator of doom, but he slays tyranid monsterous creatures like a champ! It's nice to have a poison (4+) power weapon that inflicts instant death on an auto-confirmed psychic test.

Never thought about that O.o

That's freakin' awesome...although if you look you DO still have to test for the force weapon. He auto-passes on Nurgle's Rot and Wind of Chaos but the Force Weapon still requires a test and if it's a tyranid creature shadow in the warp may make this difficult. Still if he passes that's a damn fast way to squish big bugs.

[Ulf]

Anyone ever experiment with squads of Chosen? You can give the entire squad power swords and the mark of Slaanesh for a Chaos version of Howling Bashees. Throw them in a Rhino and give them melta and combi melta and out flank for a more fragile hammer that sneeks in and starts giving static shooty armies hell.

Chosen are awesome, but for their ranged options (5 meltas / flamers). If you equip them with power swords, they are more expensive than Terminators. If you compare them to Terminators, they lack the 2+/5+ saves, the ability to deep strike, the twin linked bolters and the option to upgrade every model with combi weapons. Chosen can't be equipped with both power weapons and upgraded ranged weapons at the same time, and have a maximum of 5 upgrades per squad. They do have frag/krak grenades and the ability to outflank, but if you go for melee, terminators are the better deal in most situations.

[Connjurus]

Chosen are awesome, but for their ranged options (5 meltas / flamers). If you equip them with power swords, they are more expensive than Terminators. If you compare them to Terminators, they lack the 2+/5+ saves, the ability to deep strike, the twin linked bolters and the option to upgrade every model with combi weapons. Chosen can't be equipped with both power weapons and upgraded ranged weapons at the same time, and have a maximum of 5 upgrades per squad. They do have frag/krak grenades and the ability to outflank, but if you go for melee, terminators are the better deal in most situations.

Exactly. I use a squad of nine with 5 meltas with the Mark of Tzeentch. I really like the ability to infiltrate something with an icon for summoning and deep-striking far afield. :)

[Brettila]

Another option people often overlook as assault troops is Noise Marines. Cheaper than Khorne or Nurgle, Initiative 5, Fearless, and the champ can have a power fist and doom siren; which can fry half a squad or so before the charge. Add in the other guys' pistol shots and 3 attacks each and you have a potentially nasty round of close combat. This is also ignoring their fire potential. 2-3 shots per guy and a miniature battle cannon are not all bad (though your cost [I]shoots[I] way up).

[Connjurus]

Giving the I:5 Noise Champion a Power Fist defeats the purpose of being I:5.

[Daemonette666]

Giving the I:5 Noise Champion a Power Fist defeats the purpose of being I:5.
I play noise Marines, and if I use 2 squads of them, one squad is set for close assault against troops -champ has a power weap, while the other has a power fist for anti-vehicle combat/ or to instant death a nasty charactr. Strangely enough noise marine aspiring champions can still take a plasma pistol, but I never like using them, as Doom Sirens are a better option. You do not have to use the champions power fist. It can be turned off and be used as a normal weapon at Init 5, though you lose the armour ignoring benefit of it.

It would be so wicked if Thousand sons close combat attacks were also AP3. It would make up for their lack of grenades, and only 1 attack in close combat (2 if they charge). Enemy would be more respectful of them, and make them more worth while a both a meat/ desicated soul shield or to hold objectives with. People would be a bit more scared of assaulting them. Though they are still vulnerable, even with a 4+ invul save, to enemy fire, as they sometimes take forever to move across the board. Yes thats why rhinos are good to move them in.

I do not take Chosen, except as squads of Meltagun or Flamer strike forces. I find Possessed or Terminators are better, though possessed are a bit random, especially ase their demonic ability is randomly rolled before the game begins, and you then may have to adapt their tactics after that.

Chaos are no longer the best assault troops about, so many new army lists have big nasty hammer units, than can equal or better some of the Chaos Space Marine players favourite units, or models. Blood Angels seem to be striding ahead at the moment, with Space Wolves, Tyranids, and even Imperial Guard, giving us a run for out money. When the rumoured soon to be released Dark Eldar, and later on Grey knights codexes are released, expect to meet some really BAAAD units and characters.

[Mentat]

In 5E you have to use the power fist.

When I assemble my 2 squads of noise marines I'm going to go with a power sword in each. As much as I like to have AT capability in each squad, I have other stuff to bust tanks.

[entendre_entendre]

A fav of mine is Kharn with 9 Bereserkers and Powerfist Champ (sometimes with an icon) in a land raider. Expensive? Yes. Utterly devasting? Hell Yeah! Wiping out broods of TMC has never been so easy. Sure you'll lose a few 'zerkers to Kharn, but they're mainly just bodies anyways, but don't underestimate the 32 regular attacks at WS5 S5 I5 as they can easily strip wounds off the scary things before the powerfist can squish them. Add a 20" charge range and you're golden.