Outflank and Passengers

[whitestar333]

My friend and I were discussing a rules question last night and collectively combed through the rulebook and could not come up with a definitive answer.

"Is a Valkyrie allowed to outflank if its passengers do not have the 'Scout' or 'Infiltrate' special rules?"

As a note, I've always allowed my opponents to do so, but that may or may not mean it is correct. I apologize for no page numbers but have included the relevant sections where appropriate. Here's the best information we have:
- Independent Characters lose certain special rules if they join units without the same special rule (Valkyries are not independent characters, nor are they 'joined' by a transported unit)
- Units can confer their 'Scout' USR to their dedicated transport (look under USR section)
- Units with 'Infiltrate' cannot use their USR if they are in a transport (look under USR section)
- Units can outflank with their dedicated transport (Outflanking section)

Seeing as the Valkyrie is not a dedicated transport, the closest argument I can find is that as a unit it is allowed to outflank because it has the ability, but does it lose the ability because it's transporting a unit without the ability? Like I said, I have always allowed it, but do the rules? Can anyone come up with a tight rules argument as to why it is allowed beyond what I just said?

[Lord Azaghul]

Short answer: yes.

Not to sound rude, but I think you over thought this one.

Its kind of like saying that a drop pod can't deep strike if its carring tact marines.

[whitestar333]

It wasn't me, but my friend. Like I said, I allow it, but my friend wants proof. I think the drop pod is a good step but I think that's specifically stated in the codex.

[BlackKnight15624]

Also, the Drop Pod is a dedicated transport where the Valk is not.

BUT I do agree with you- really any vehicle with the outflank special rule and a transport capacity should be able to carry its cargo on with it... otherwise it's useless.

[Lord Azaghul]

For the most part characters aren't vehicles, so rules don't really apply in that manner.

The ONLY difference for a dedicated transport - period - is that ONLY the unit its bought with may be deloyed in it.

The scout rule does seems to transfer back and forth between vehicles and units, in fact the only restriction is 'infiltrate' were the rule book states that you many not infiltrate IN a vehicle.

I do agree that you're playing it 'right', I'm fact I've never seen anyone play it other wise.

I would double check the 'transport' 'reserves' 'deployment' sections (I'm sure you've already read it). Once a unit is declared to be in a transport, the transport IS the unit, (in game terms) until the unit leave said transport. (I'm just doing off of memory and my interpretation here).

[DarkLink]

Also, the Drop Pod is a dedicated transport where the Valk is not.


Doesn't make any difference whatsoever.

[karandras]

I have posted this query on here previously. The majority response from the BoLS community is it is allowed.

This is one of those questions that the rules do not answer and unsuprisingly has not been FAQ'd.

Based on RAW for the Outflank rules, I would argue that a unit cannot outflank if it does not itself have the Scout and/or Infiltrate special rule. The opposition continually tries to point out the Drop Pod and Mycetic Spore's deep strike ability. They argue that while embarked the unit ceases to exist and the special rules for the vehicle take precedence.

I am not particularly satisfied with this response for two primary reasons:
1. The Valkyrie/Vendetta is not a dedicated transport and is not purchased as a transport option for a specific unit in the codex. It is a seperate FOC choice, which makes it unique.
2. The transported unit in question would not be permitted to Outflank based on Outflank USR RAW.

Locally we do not permit it, and I just attended the GT event Bolter Beach, where it was also not permitted. This extends to the Scout move ability as well. Ultimately, it is something for the local gaming group to decide until it is FAQ'd by GW. I think the IG Codex is powerful enough without this exploitable loophole. But again, that's just my opinion. I tend to always look at the rules and when there is a case that is unclear, I prefer to go with the more restrictive interpretation (i.e. - it doesn't say I can so I cannot, as opposed to it doesn't say specifically that I cannot so I can!).

[Nabterayl]

Karandras - thanks for that calm and reasoned "opposition" response. As you say, this is a question for the local gaming group to decide - I think we all agree about that.

I am curious, though, so I can better understand your point of view and similar ones - what exactly is the content of your objection to the drop pod hypothetical? To put it another way, what rules make you think that a drop pod can Deep Strike with passengers who do not themselves have the Deep Strike rule? You mention its status as a dedicated transport, but I am not sure why you view that as significant. I am not aware, for instance, of any rule that states that a dedicated transport and the unit it is purchased for share all deployment options.

[karandras]

I see outflank (or scout) as a considerable tactical advantage. It makes short ranged units far more effective in that they no longer have to survive long enough to get into range. The opposition has no time to react or counter them. I think that is why GW permits only certain units which already have the option to scout or infiltrate to do so. These units' points cost are already based on their ability to begin the game closer to the enemy via the infiltrate or scout USR. We hope that this is based on thorough playtesting.

In my opinion, the outflank rules as written are meant to provide tactical flexibility to those units.

While the Drop Pod/Spore also provide an increased level of tactical flexability by permitting units to deep strike, I view it differently for a couple of reasons. Primarily, by being a dedicated transport available to only certain units, GW has some level of control in making sure that the ability cannot be exploited (at least in theory). Also, while we have all seen those times when a bunch of Drop Pod Storm Bolter/Deathwind Launcher fire has wiped out an important unit or played a significant roll in the game, I would argue that those are the exception to the norm. I view the cost of the Drop Pod to actually be more akin to the cost of deploying the transported unit via deep strike. Again, I am hoping that GW through thorough playtesting has established the points accordingly.

The Valkyrie on the other hand, due to not being a dedicated transport, appears to have no such balance. The Valkyrie is a unit in its own right and is priced (points wise) accordingly. Any unit can be placed in one! Straken led HQ moving on from outflank springs immediately to mind, but even a Veteran Squad with 3 special weapons becomes far more effective than it's points justify it being. I don't think the points for the transported squad are balanced.

Again, this is only my opinion, but I think Straken with a Medic and a Command Squad full of meltas boosted by an attached IC (Lord Commisar or even Yarrick) is far more effective when they get to begin the game within 12" or moving on from the flank on turn 2. A less dramatic example would be a simple Veteran Squad with 3 melta guns. What is that 100 points on the dot? 3 Meltas hitting on 3+ within 6" on turn 1 is very possible if permitted to utilize the Valkyrie's USRs. Not to mention, they're troops! It just doesn't seem balanced.

Of course, the recent addition of the Storm Raven and deep striking Land Raiders begs the question if GW is really concerned with balance at all!!!

I play guard too. Eldar are my favorite, but I have a large Cobra IG army that I use regularly so I am not just the scorned opponent poo-pooing this rule.

[Nabterayl]

It just doesn't seem balanced.

Of course, the recent addition of the Storm Raven and deep striking Land Raiders begs the question if GW is really concerned with balance at all!!!

I play guard too. Eldar are my favorite, but I have a large Cobra IG army that I use regularly so I am not just the scorned opponent poo-pooing this rule.
I certainly didn't mean to imply that you're a "scorned opponent." I just wasn't clear on whether you were basing your argument on notions of game balance or statutory construction (as it were).

[karandras]

You didn't imply anything negative at all, my friend. I was just throwing that out there.

I would choose game balance issues primarily.

This may be due in large part to a member of our local gaming community, who god bless him, is a long time Grey Knights player. When the IG book hit the shelves he immediately converted his force over to IG with allied GKs. While old codexes generally suffer from over-costed units Grey Knight squads with Incinerators in Vendettas is no joke. He would run 4 of them in two Squadrons of two each. If he won the roll for forst turn, he would scout move all of them flat out and hope you didn't seize the intiative. If the opponent won first turn, he would just outflank them all.

It certainly wasn't balanced!

Then there was the GK Grandmaster with a large Terminator retinue benefitting from Creed's Outflank ability. It was brutal. Really brutal, but really unbalanced.

[Nabterayl]

Well, as far as game balance goes, I don't know that I disagree with you. When I say that I think Outflanking transports can carry non-Outflanking passengers, what I mean is that I see no reason other than my own notions of game balance why not, if a Deep Striking drop pod can carry non-Deep Striking passengers (which I think we all agree it can).

If I conclude that a Deep Striking drop pod can carry non-Deep Striking passengers, despite the presence of explicit rules to this effect (and there are no explicit rules that would allow it), I feel compelled as a matter of logical consistency to say that by the same token, an Outflanking transport can carry non-Outflanking passengers.

Now of course you could play the game balance card, and justify non-consistency that way. I think that is a totally legitimate thing for a group to do, and I support it 100%. I just didn't think that was the question being asked.

[MightyOrang]

ADEPTICON FAQ (Feb 2010)

IG.56B.02 -- Q: Can a Valkyrie/Vendetta Outflank while transporting an embarked unit that doesn't have the 'Scout' special rule?
A: Yes