Outflanking and Synapse

[darkninja962]

My gaming group and I have always assumed you worry about synapse before any reserves come on the table, as such giving the units a free turn to not have to worry about synapse. But we recently decided to look at the wording on when synapse checks take place and reserves come in. They are both at the beginning of the turn. Can anyone help us out here? What happens first, the synapse or the reserve?

[BuFFo]

If both are at the begining of the turn, either choose yourself, or flip a coin.

I could have sworn Reserves are rolled at the start of the turn, but arrive at the start of your movement phase, which means you wol check for IB tests before the units arrive from reserve.

[Jwolf]

Any rule a unit has that might cause it to be unable to enter the board from Reserves is ignored the movement phase they enter play.

[Fizyx]

Any rule a unit has that might cause it to be unable to enter the board from Reserves is ignored the movement phase they enter play.

Yep, Pg 94. He beat me to it.

[DarkLink]

So theoretically, Obliterators would ignore Slow and Purposeful, because if they roll double 1s they might not be able to move on due to their bases being 1.5" in diameter?

[Hugz4Genestealers]

So theoretically, Obliterators would ignore Slow and Purposeful, because if they roll double 1s they might not be able to move on due to their bases being 1.5" in diameter?

I, personally, would have no problem with this.

[Fizyx]

So theoretically, Obliterators would ignore Slow and Purposeful, because if they roll double 1s they might not be able to move on due to their bases being 1.5" in diameter?

No, because the rule only affects special rules that make models: 1. Move in a specific Direction (Feed-Rage) or 2. That could stop it from moving (Lurk.) Slow and Purposeful does neither, and you would just put the model on the edge of the table.

That is, if Obliterators could outflank. Can they?

[addamsfamily36]

I don't think obliterators can outflank, but there are situations where they might be coming on from reserve. mission type etc.

[Hugz4Genestealers]

Regardless whether reserves or outflank, the model in question counts as starting its movement phase just outside the board edge, and proceeds to move on normally. It makes sense to me, therefore, that slow and purposeful models would have to roll to move on to the board just like in any other movement phase. After all, if they didn't have to roll, would they be able to move the full six inch standard infantry movement? That also seems like it would be wrong. Purely hypothetical, I've never had the issue come up.

[DarkLink]

No, because the rule only affects special rules that make models: 1. Move in a specific Direction (Feed-Rage) or 2. That could stop it from moving (Lurk.) Slow and Purposeful does neither, and you would just put the model on the edge of the table.

That is, if Obliterators could outflank. Can they?

It was mostly a funny thought I had. But it really comes down to "can you have your base hanging off the edge". Obliterator bases are 1.5" in diameter, so if you rolled double 1's for S&P you wouldn't be able to move fully on the board edge.

[sebi81]

same problem would appear if there is difficult terrain at the board edge you want to move in.

[Fizyx]

It was mostly a funny thought I had. But it really comes down to "can you have your base hanging off the edge". Obliterator bases are 1.5" in diameter, so if you rolled double 1's for S&P you wouldn't be able to move fully on the board edge.

I had this come up in a game with Tau XV-88's coming on from the board edge with their A.S.S. (which gives them Slow and Purposeful.) The rules really don't cover it, so my opponent just let me put him on the board edge.

[Paradox]

Agreed. I think that most people would agree thats the most sensible choice and outcome

[TSINI]

It was mostly a funny thought I had. But it really comes down to "can you have your base hanging off the edge". Obliterator bases are 1.5" in diameter, so if you rolled double 1's for S&P you wouldn't be able to move fully on the board edge.

Aren't reserve movements measured from the edge of the table?, therefore the oblits base being 1.5" diameter (0.75" radius) means your oblit would end up being on the board fully, with a 0.25" gap behind him

centre(edge of the board) to centre(of the base) measurement of an inch is bigger than the radius of the base.

the same as when you move a tank onto the board, the edge of the board is where the centre of the vehicle starts, so a vehicle can move 6" onto the board Centre to Centre.

otherwise vehicles like the baneblade wouldn't make it onto the table if you measured edge of the board to the front of the vehicle.

[Fizyx]

Aren't reserve movements measured from the edge of the table?, therefore the oblits base being 1.5" diameter (0.75" radius) means your oblit would end up being on the board fully, with a 0.25" gap behind him

centre(edge of the board) to centre(of the base) measurement of an inch is bigger than the radius of the base.

the same as when you move a tank onto the board, the edge of the board is where the centre of the vehicle starts, so a vehicle can move 6" onto the board Centre to Centre.

otherwise vehicles like the baneblade wouldn't make it onto the table if you measured edge of the board to the front of the vehicle.

Nope, the move is measured as if the vehicle was positioned just off the edge of the table. In the cases listed, graciousness and decency should prevail. Also, the Baneblade is not more than 12" long, so it should be able to make it on the table.

[BuFFo]

For large base models, since there is a possibility that Difficult Terrain Tests may not allow the model to come onto the board, it is ignored, as per the rules.

[Gotthammer]

Also, the Baneblade is not more than 12" long, so it should be able to make it on the table.

'cept Baneblades can only move 6" max.

[Fizyx]

For large base models, since there is a possibility that Difficult Terrain Tests may not allow the model to come onto the board, it is ignored, as per the rules.

Since difficult terrain could not keep a model from moving, the rule is not ignored. Only a rule that would actually keep a model from moving (or move it in a specific direction) will be ignored. The rules say nothing of anything that would keep models from moving a certain distance. If I have models 12" away from a board edge with difficult terrain, there is no way I am letting my opponent ignore difficult terrain when he is outflanking his Genestealers.

[Fizyx]

'cept Baneblades can only move 6" max.

touché

[DarkLink]

Since difficult terrain could not keep a model from moving, the rule is not ignored. Only a rule that would actually keep a model from moving (or move it in a specific direction) will be ignored. The rules say nothing of anything that would keep models from moving a certain distance. If I have models 12" away from a board edge with difficult terrain, there is no way I am letting my opponent ignore difficult terrain when he is outflanking his Genestealers.

If you're off the board, and have a large base, and roll double 1's, you might not be able to move on to the board. This rule is the only thing that covers it, and so it's entirely possible that it would, indeed, prevent models from moving on the board, meaning this rule does, in fact, apply.

[Lerra]

So what happens to a unit that can't fully enter the table?

[Jwolf]

So what happens to a unit that can't fully enter the table?

Why can it not move onto the table is the first question.

If this is just due to movement, you place it on the table. If other units block it, models that cannot be placed legally are destroyed.

[Tynskel]

Why can it not move onto the table is the first question.

If this is just due to movement, you place it on the table. If other units block it, models that cannot be placed legally are destroyed.

Making a call stating that units are destroyed requires some page numbers...

[Jwolf]

Answered in the other thread.

[Fizyx]

If you're off the board, and have a large base, and roll double 1's, you might not be able to move on to the board. This rule is the only thing that covers it, and so it's entirely possible that it would, indeed, prevent models from moving on the board, meaning this rule does, in fact, apply.

I see what you are saying, but I have to disagree. The rule (difficult terrain) does not keep a model from moving. It may keep it from making it all the way onto the table, but it certainly does not prohibit it from moving. There is no real clearly defined answer as to what happens then, which is why I advocate just setting the model on the table edge. Completely ignoring difficult terrain upon board entry is inappropriate.

[DarkLink]

I see what you are saying, but I have to disagree. The rule (difficult terrain) does not keep a model from moving.

Not being able to place a model with its base hanging off the edge would absolutely prevent a model from moving on, as a direct result of the difficult terrain roll. Hence, the situation.

Note that the rules never really say whether a unit entering play can leave its base hanging off the edge, or what happens in a case like this, at least as far as I can tell.

Also, note that I'm not actually trying to argue this. I just think it's a funny issue that arises from the rules.

[TSINI]

Not being able to place a model with its base hanging off the edge would absolutely prevent a model from moving on, as a direct result of the difficult terrain roll. Hence, the situation.

Note that the rules never really say whether a unit entering play can leave its base hanging off the edge, or what happens in a case like this, at least as far as I can tell.

Also, note that I'm not actually trying to argue this. I just think it's a funny issue that arises from the rules.

if measuring from the table edge to the front of the model, the baneblade will ALWAYS be hanging off of the edge because it's longer than its fastest movement of 6"

another extension on this conunderum to chew on

with the spearhead special rule causing a hit on superheavies which start on the table, more people will probably opt to bring it on as a reserve, making this situation a fairly normal occurrence.

i'm still in the "measure from the table edge to the centre of the vehicle/model" camp - it at least garuntees everything can come onto the board fully with its standard movement

[DarkLink]

if measuring from the table edge to the front of the model, the baneblade will ALWAYS be hanging off of the edge because it's longer than its fastest movement of 6"


Is it wider than 6"? I seem to recall it is, but it's been a long time since I've seen the actual model in person.

[Tynskel]

Is it wider than 6"? I seem to recall it is, but it's been a long time since I've seen the actual model in person.

It is about as wide as a Land Raider is long. Overall it is really big model.

This goes back to p.94-- the model 'must' be moved onto the board. You would just override the fact that the tank can't move that fast--- it must arrive on the board!

[Valkerie]

Regardless of the rules, do you REALLY want your models hanging halfway off the table? I would think that was just asking for trouble, one nudge to the table and your models hit the floor. Not what I would want to see happen.

[TSINI]

Regardless of the rules, do you REALLY want your models hanging halfway off the table? I would think that was just asking for trouble, one nudge to the table and your models hit the floor. Not what I would want to see happen.

yeah, and if you always measure from the centre to the centre of every model (as you would a vehicle which is pivoting and moving etc) and count the actual board edge as the centre of the model's starting position, every model gets to move on and be away from the table edge including the baneblade with 6" movement, and an obliterator (or any other 40mm+ based model) which rolls a double 1 to move.