Chaos Marines: Where do they fit?

[eagleboy7259]

I was in the game store the other night for game night and after we had finished up our game me and my opponent got to talking. I'm new to the store and pretty new to 5th edition, having only started collecting again back at xmas time. Let's just say I got my butt whooped. Anyway the guy offers me a rematch next week saying he'll bring his Chaos Marines and I'll probably whoop his but next time. I ask him what he means and we talk for a bit and he says look you'll what I mean.

Woah did I miss something:confused:

Idk when I started playing in 3rd ed it was right before the previous CSM book came out and after that they were the be all, end all army to beat. I know they got nerfed in their current book but are they really that bad? I've seen it both ways in the forums from people saying they are the among the worst armies in the game to others still saying they are one of the most dangerous books out there. I was wondering what people thought?

Against them: Codex Chaos Marines was written during the dark days of Jervis-Hammer, meaning that everything in the book is overpriced compared to its loyalist counterpart. Being already expensive points wise means they will bring in some of the lowest body counts in the game. They have no decent fast attack selection, save the bikes who are considerably overpriced for their mediocre stat raise. They have no psychic defense to speak of leaving them vulnerable. Most of the units in the book aren't worth fielding because many have similar roles to other units such as bezerkers and possessed.

For them: C'mon its CSM! They're the elite of the elite right? They have some of the nastiest HQ, Troops, and Heavy Support selections in the game in the form of Demon Princes, Plague Marines, Khrone Bezerkers, Obliterators, and Defilers. Demons are still a nasty bomb that allow you to tie up units on a whim and claim objectives late in the game. Lash and Warptime are among the nastiest psychic powers in the game.

So which is right?

[TheStrategist]

Well, just as a thought, is the amount of people who play 'Chaos' armies, using other codexi. Goatboy, one guy in my local store. Heck, even I'm toying around with the idea of using the BA codex to represent Night Lords...

Sure, the CSM codex isn't the worst, but it's only got several builds that are truly competitive, and even those have been seen and seen again to the point where they aren't surprising the opponent. And that's not even taking the fluff into perspective. Can anyone imagine Slaanesh Daemon Princes bunching up entire squads for Khornate Demolishers, while Plague Marines and Tzeentch Daemons hold ground/assault the enemy in a short story? A little over the top, but I'm sure the point is clear.

My humble two pennies.

[Mizzrym]

Well as a primarily CSM player(though I just took the dive into DE) I think that they're both wrong. I play a Death Guard army, and while it's certainly not overpowered, its not some chump b***h either. Sure we've got some inherent weaknesses (read: psy defense and no FA worth taking) but my track record vs current guard is about 50/50 and that's saying something, because guard are really good right now. Personally I started in 5th ed, but have the older codeci on my computer, and while i long for some of the things we used to have, I'm happy with what we've got. Honestly the only things loyalists have that we don't that i would kill for are HK missiles and land speeders, if we had those it'd be crazy. Now don't get me wrong there are some super weak but fun builds (1k sons, and to a lesser extent emperor's children) but it's not always about having a face beating army. I have a small EC warband with a crapton of converted noise marines that I pull out for smaller games, they're not that good but who can say no to hot pink chaos marines blasting sonic death all over their foes?

[Sir Biscuit]

Chaos isn't bad because their individual units are bad, they're bad because nothing in the army has any synergy with anything else.

First, let's take a look at the units in the codex:
HQs:
Abbadon: Powerful, killy, durable, and extremely expensive. Pass.
Fabius Bile: Cool character, cool upgrade option, but points spent on him and his upgrades quickly gets too expensive. Pass.
Huron Blackheart: Overpriced okay melee guy. Pass.
Typhus: Cool character, great in melee until he meets a powerfist and goes splat. Pass.
Kharn the Betrayer: Awesome in melee, tends to go splat but you can run him with a squad and he can actually be pretty survivable. Also, shockingly, reasonably priced. Not an OMGAWESOME HQ, but he's pretty good.
Ahriman: Pay a huge cost for... some crappy powers and a crappy melee guy. Pass. Worst option.
Lucius the Eternal: Neat abilities, and soooo, soooooooo close to being good in melee. Unforgivably, he forgot his blissgiver and uses a powersword instead. Pass!
Daemon Prince: expensive, kinda fragile, but the best HQ option.
Chaos Lord: Not worth it. After upgrades, is as expensive as a loyalist captain but not as good. Daemon weapons are an expensive joke.
Chaos Sorcerer: 10 points less expensive than a Daemon prince... pass.

Elites:
Chosen Chaos Space Marines: Pay a price premium, and very expensive to outfit, and they don't score. You get infiltrate in exchange, and some pricey options. Pass.
Chaos Terminators: Kinda cool, if run right. The key is to keep them cheap. Still, they don't really have an effective delivery system as Chaos Land Raiders are not very good, and they don't have the invuln save to survive anything but the safest of deep strikes. A maybe.
Possessed: Overpriced and random. Not a good combination for a unit if it wants to be in serious lists. Pass.
Chaos Dreadnought: Don't be fooled, equipping it with ranged weaponry is a good way to get your own units shot up. Melee ones are... okay, but still not great as they are unreliable. Good in an all-melee army, and not much else.

Troops:
Chaos Space Marines: Cheap at first glance, less so after upgrades. They need a mark, non-fearless CSM are... lulz. To get a sarge you have to pay a hefty premium, and your weapons are more expensive to boot. Especially bad when compared to cult troops. Pass, one squad can be good for holding the home objective.
Plague Marines: They never die. Plauge marines are more resistant to small arms fire than terminators, and you can pack 2x melta in each squad. Still, expensive so you won't have a ton of them and they die to heavier weapons like any other marines. A good option. Probably the best in the codex.
Noise Marines: Much too expensive for what they deliver. Better to invest in different kinds of ranged support.
Khorne Berserkers: So cool, and so close to being really good. If they could take melta, they would be awesome. As it is, they can't really bust tanks, so they're only mediocre. Unfortunately, nothing else in the codex is great at busting transports at range either, so they're not nearly as good as they first appear.
Thousand Sons: Overpriced, and their effectiveness drops off dramatically when they aren't fighting against MEQs. Pass.

Fast Attack:
Chaos Bikers: Cool, but extremely expensive. I have trouble seeing them in a lot of builds, though some people swear by them. Still, I just cant get over that more-expensive-than-terminators price tag. Pass.
Raptors: Do what Khorne berserkers do, worse, for one point less. Good suicide melta deliver system, I suppose, but not much beyond that. Pass.
Chaos Spawn: AHAHAHApass.

Heavy Support:
Havocs: Jaw-droppingly... expensive. Like, daaaaaaaamn expensive. Pass.
Obliterators: Cool, effective, expensive, and fragile. They're the only reasonable ranged support you've got, unfortunitly. They get taken, even though they aren't terribly good.
Chaos Predator: The loyalist one is good because its cheap. This one is expensive. Pass.
Vindicator: It's a vindi. You pay ten points more than the loyalist one for the same thing. Vindi's are kinda meh tanks, but they're not bad, per say. Can be useful.
Defiler: Only ever equip it with more arms, as when it fores the battle cannon it can't fire any other guns. Silly, I know. But not a terrible choice for a melee army.
Land Raider: You only get the one variant no one likes and you don't get PotMS or the Multi-Melta option. At least you save 20 points? Nope, not good. Pass.

Summoned Daemons:
Greater Daemon: Cool. I like this guys, but he's kinda unreliable and you lose a valuable sergeant when he comes in. Maybe? I like him.
Lessor Daemons: Don't fool yourself, these guys are for summoning to sit and claim objectives, not to actually fight things. They're too fragile to take anything in melee but weak troops. Some small squads are nice for objective grabbing.

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So, out of that whole big codex, what units are worth taking?
Kharn
Daemon Prince
Maybe Termis
Maybe Dreadnoughts
Plague Marines
Khorne Berserkers
Obliterators
Vindicators
Defilers
Lessor Daemons

That's not a very impressive list.

Well, at least we're doing well in the melee department. In fact, 7 of the 10 units worth using in the army are melee units.

Uh oh. We don't need redundancy in good melee units. What we need is the ability to bust transports, be mobile, be flexible and disrupt the opponents battle plan. This is the first area where Chaos armies run into trouble: they are necessarily melee-focused, because most of their good units are melee units.

That's really bad, because your opponent also knows that. He knows that you will have to come to him, because Chaos can't outshoot any other army in the game. Even Orks handily outshoot Chaos. That means from turn one, your battle plan will be no surprise to the enemy. For gods sake, Chaos doesn't even have any decent deep strikers or outflankers. It's a very monotactical army.

And even then, it gets worse. I mentioned it at the top, none of the units have synergy with each other. For instance, a marine squad, a mortis dread and a MM/HF land speeder working together have a myriad of tactical options, and can support each other in a variety of ways. Together, they make a very flexible formation that denies mobility, controls a segment of the board, and can put out killing power at range and in melee. Chaos has none of that. The closest they get is "obliterators pop transports, berserkers assault". Nothing in the army can help the units around them and make them better.

Quick note on obliterators, too. They are fragile. Really, really fragile, and they are often the only ranged support in a Chaos army. I can count on one had the time I've seen Oblits stay alive past turn two, and I play Chaos almost every week.

At this point, you are either decent at 40k and know exactly what I'm saying above, or you disagree because you haven't played enough games against good opponents. In either case, I'm not going to go on and on about it.

One final nail in the coffin: BA and SW both do assault armies better. It's why there's so many counts-as-chaos armies done with their codices. It's because BA and SW not only bring hard melee units, but they also have unit variety, real ranged support, and versatile deployment options.

[DarkLink]

He's just complaining and using the codex as an excuse.

A lot of players like to whine about how "bland" and "boring" the codex is. And some units, like Tk Sons, aren't very competitive.

But the codex is still a potent one. There are enough powerful units that CSMs can still do very well.

Besides, they have Plague Marines and Obliterators:rolleyes:.

[MajorSoB]

As a 5th edition chaos player I can tell you they are good but not great. Yes there are some power builds ( Slaanesh DP with Plague Marines and Oblits ) but generally they are a very mediocre codex. I was a bigger fan of them in the last codex when cult armies all had special rules and weapons. This codex seems rather bland. I am not a fan of the removal of cult animosity ( apparently all the gods of Chaos are one big happy family now.). But as I said I have played them in 5th edition with some success.

For the most part Sir Biscuit gave you a decent overview. Just a few things opinions that I would offer:

HQ
-Deamon princes are the best by far and with wings and a mark they can stand up to nearly anything in the game.
-Chaos Lords have only one purpose and that is to carry a deamon weapon. Very random but fun to play.

Elites
-Termies rock and are cheap. A squad of 3 deepstriking with combi-weapons come in at 105 points. How can you go wrong?
-Possessed are random but when you roll power weapons they can be a game changer. They do come with their own invul. save as well.

Troops
- They are all good but plague marines are the real bargain since feel no pain is game breaking.

Fast attack
-Raptors with the MoT are hard as nails but can be somewhat pricey as well.
-Spawn may be the worse unit in the game, right up their with WH penitent engines!

HQ
-Oblits are a bit toned down from what they were but are so flexible.
-Vindis should almost always take demonic possession. They are a great distraction and fire magnet.

Deamons
-Greater deamons are cheap as hell for what they do. True they kill an aspiring champ when they come in ( so keep a few cheap champs around for this purpose!) but if you play your army correctly they will get to charge on the round they appear. They rock.
-Lesser deamons also are good but not great. They can tie up units and tip a deadlocked combat in your favor when used correctly.

Just my opinion...

[Big mek]

As a 5th edition chaos player I can tell you they are good but not great. Yes there are some power builds ( Slaanesh DP with Plague Marines and Oblits ) but generally they are a very mediocre codex. I was a bigger fan of them in the last codex when cult armies all had special rules and weapons. This codex seems rather bland. I am not a fan of the removal of cult animosity ( apparently all the gods of Chaos are one big happy family now.). But as I said I have played them in 5th edition with some success.

For the most part Sir Biscuit gave you a decent overview. Just a few things opinions that I would offer:

HQ
-Deamon princes are the best by far and with wings and a mark they can stand up to nearly anything in the game.
-Chaos Lords have only one purpose and that is to carry a deamon weapon. Very random but fun to play.

Elites
-Termies rock and are cheap. A squad of 3 deepstriking with combi-weapons come in at 105 points. How can you go wrong?
-Possessed are random but when you roll power weapons they can be a game changer. They do come with their own invul. save as well.

Troops
- They are all good but plague marines are the real bargain since feel no pain is game breaking.

Fast attack
-Raptors with the MoT are hard as nails but can be somewhat pricey as well.
-Spawn may be the worse unit in the game, right up their with WH penitent engines!

HQ
-Oblits are a bit toned down from what they were but are so flexible.
-Vindis should almost always take demonic possession. They are a great distraction and fire magnet.

Deamons
-Greater deamons are cheap as hell for what they do. True they kill an aspiring champ when they come in ( so keep a few cheap champs around for this purpose!) but if you play your army correctly they will get to charge on the round they appear. They rock.
-Lesser deamons also are good but not great. They can tie up units and tip a deadlocked combat in your favor when used correctly.

Just my opinion...

Ooooh, remember my worst nightmare... played against an IG army, and was looking forward for my huge unit of possessed to rip up the whole infantry section of the enemy.... only to be sent crying when they hit a huge massive wall of.... Ratlings... i mean, possessed should eat them in a sec, but some very very poor dice rolling meant that my possies had lost first rounf of combat, thankfully they were fearless... next round ratlings lost, but passed ld test, a tie on the next cc round (if my memory serves right) and finally at 4th round of combat or so, i managed to wipe them, at the expence of a few possessed, quite lousy performance by the best of the best in my army, and quite alot of teasing by fellow gamers whenever the talk fall on Ratlings!!

[bad moon on afull moon]

i agree with almost everything there, but about the lesser daemons, theyre absolutely destructive in combat and cheap for their ability to charge after deepstriking, 20 of them charging after deepstriking from an icon, on an unsuspecting foe, get 60 attacks at I4 for 260pts,ive found them very useful for getting rid of deathstar units full of powerfists, or in one game, ghazgkull and 20 orkboys in one round of combat

[Grabnutz]

Am I the only CSM Commander here who plays for fun rather than Tournament placings?

The Warband of Old Scrote the Scrofulous, Warden of the Northen Pustules, Stand-up Comic and Sorcerer of Father Nurgle, wins sometimes and loses sometimes. In the majority of the cases it is a combination of generalship and luck that cause those results, win or lose.

The one thing the army does bring me is endless fun. Watching Bob the Blaster (Obliterator) appear behind the enmy's precious armour and reduce it to cinders (often killing himself in the process) makes me laugh until my sides hurt. Or the faces on my opponents as I describe in great detail as Old Scrote passes gas (Wind of Chaos) and melts their super combat unit into puddles. There are also the times when the Plague Marines seem to be made of tissue paper and the termies scatter off the board, again (I like risky deep strikes - so shoot me).

My point is that I choose armies that make me smile. Yes I do read the various web-tactica out there, and even take their advice sometimes, but I go into a battle hoping to have some fun. If I 'win' as well then that's a bonus.

CSM, like Orks, are one of those armies that are a converter & modeller's wet dream. No carefully described iconography or regular lines of identical troops here. For that alone I don't give a fig about the competitiveness of the Codex. As I am sure Lao Tzu would have said, an army wins on the skills of its general, not the weapons of its troops.

[UltramarineFan]

It is a strong codex. It is competitive. It does have some awesome units. However this is irrelevant because a lot of people refuse to be happy with it. Why? Legions. Great as the codex is it does not do that great a job at representing the legions, sure you can build armies around some of the main ones(Death Guard, World Eaters, Black Legion etc.) but some of the others just get sidelined(Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers etc.).
So until we get a codex where the legions are properly represented then you will have people complaining but the reality is that it is easy to use and easily competitive.

[Grabnutz]

So until we get a codex where the legions are properly represented then you will have people complaining but the reality is that it is easy to use and easily competitive.

Good point. Some of this has been addressed in the Forge World Imperial Armour books, however, I think that this would be a great opportunity for GW to publish some free PDF's - one for each of the seven CSM Legions, integrating old Legion Fluff and legion specific units and vehicles from Imperial Armour, plus some suitable new stuff.

[archimbald]

as a csm player i find them more fun to play with than most other armies, i not only find their troops more adaptable than standard sm (but i dont play these so...)csm's are best played simple

[eagleboy7259]

Nerfed and neutered and brought down to a few builds that all revolve around close combat. Overcosted and outdone by the 5th edition books. People jumping ship and doing "count as" builds. But I guess I want to ask one question:

Do they still scare you?

Having to run head long into combat with you isn't really that big of a disadvantage. Almost fully half of the other armies in the game are built with that gameplay style in mind: Tyranids, Orks, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars, Chaos Demons, etc. The ones that aren't suffer in their own ways like Tau, Space Marines, and Eldar. When you see Chaos Zilla, Deathguard, World Eaters, or Lash Prince builds are you confident that you can win just because their book is that weak? or do they still give you a run for your money?

Grabnutz the Nine Chaos Space Marine Legions: World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Black Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion. I agree completely with you, when they do the new CSM book, each Legion should receive the respect and attention they deserve. They should have at least what they had in the previous edition of the book. It's rather annoying to see the Big Four chapters each having their own book, when they are much more similar in appearance, rules, and fluff than the Big Four legions and their patron gods.

[LadasN]

Meh, I have a decent W/T/L ratio with my chaos, more wins and ties than losses and I still feel that they are a great army.

[Lord Anubis]

Not much to add to what's been said.

I don't think anyone can argue that you can make an army from the codex. A fairly passable army, even. But it's going to be limited and predictable.

The real problem that's angered so many longtime Chaos players is that the Codex became completely generic. You can't really represent any of the founding legions, which were the armies so many people had built up over the years (I say this as a ten-year Alpha Legion player). Heck, with the animosity rules gone, you have to ask why the Chaos Gods are even mentioned there. They've gone from being powerful entities that affect your entire army composistion to random ugrades for single units.

It's the same frustration you'd see if GW decided to dump Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Black Templars, then just told all these players to use the vanilla Space Marine book. I mean, you can make a completely acceptable Space Wolves army with that list. It'll be bland as hell and have no Wolfie flavor, but it would be a playable army.

:(

[Connjurus]

Am I the only CSM Commander here who plays for fun rather than Tournament placings?

The Warband of Old Scrote the Scrofulous, Warden of the Northen Pustules, Stand-up Comic and Sorcerer of Father Nurgle, wins sometimes and loses sometimes. In the majority of the cases it is a combination of generalship and luck that cause those results, win or lose.

The one thing the army does bring me is endless fun. Watching Bob the Blaster (Obliterator) appear behind the enmy's precious armour and reduce it to cinders (often killing himself in the process) makes me laugh until my sides hurt. Or the faces on my opponents as I describe in great detail as Old Scrote passes gas (Wind of Chaos) and melts their super combat unit into puddles. There are also the times when the Plague Marines seem to be made of tissue paper and the termies scatter off the board, again (I like risky deep strikes - so shoot me).

My point is that I choose armies that make me smile. Yes I do read the various web-tactica out there, and even take their advice sometimes, but I go into a battle hoping to have some fun. If I 'win' as well then that's a bonus.

CSM, like Orks, are one of those armies that are a converter & modeller's wet dream. No carefully described iconography or regular lines of identical troops here. For that alone I don't give a fig about the competitiveness of the Codex. As I am sure Lao Tzu would have said, an army wins on the skills of its general, not the weapons of its troops.

I agree 100% with this man. I love the look on people's faces when I toast a Terminator squad with Ahriman's Warptime/Wind of Chaos. Or when I charge Typhus into a squad in cover, relishing their looks of dread when they realize that Terminator with a Daemon-Force Weapon ALSO has Offensive Grenades and Winds of Chaos.

I love Deepstrike Obliterators within six inches of the biggest threat on the board (looking at you Manticores) and toasting them with twin-linked Meltaguns. I love having a Vindicator that can never be shaken or stunned.

I love running my World Eaters Dreadnought forward into the thick of battle and rolling that six on the Crazed chart. I love the groans that people give when they see Thousand Sons get out of a rhino right next to that pricey command/veteran squad.

I LOVE laughing at Eternal Warrior as I turn things into Chaos Spawn without my opponent having any chance in hell of taking a single save against it (except for the oh-so-rare psychic saves). I love bombing that TH/SS Terminator unit with Abaddon and four Khorne Termy champs with Twin LCs coming straight out of my LR.

There are so many wonderfully awesome things about the Chaos Space Marine codex that seem to be overlooked in favor of things that would work in other codices. If I could relate the CSM 'dex and how I play it, it would be to how the Eldar's Aspects work. Each is tailored to a specific goal, and when people don't realize that they complain about how the codex sucks because his World Eaters got outshot by some Boyz. The CSM 'dex is definitely very unforgiving. It requires you to know exactly when to use it like a delicate blade in the hands of a Slaaneshi Lord or a giant, unstoppable hammer in the hands of a Daemon Prince.

When I play against another CSM player whose list is a rinse/wash/repeat list of Plaguemarine spam with Lash Princes, I laugh, because I know that that player hasn't taken the time to sit down and actually read through his codex to look at the very unhidden gems of the codex. What are they?

Chaos Lord with M.o.S., Wings, Melta Bombs, and Blissgiver: Coming in at an even 160 points, you get the ultimate HQ killer. Give him four or five Raptors as ablative casualties, slap on Mark of Slaanesh again to them, and you'll wipe out any marine squad before they get the chance to strike back. Well, five times out of every six, anyway. ;)

Chosen with any mark. It doesn't matter. I prefer Tzeentch for the 5++, but the big shiny thing about these guys is that not only do they outflank with 5 meltaguns, but they can also have Meltabombs, AND you just brought in a squad into your opponent's rear with an Icon for deepstriking, and a Champion to turn into a Greater Daemon.

Noise Marines: These guys are one of the few real hidden gems. The thing that most people do to mess them up is give them a powerfist. If you're giving I:5 Space Marines a power fist, you're doing it wrong. These guys are for clearing anything up to and including Space Marines out of cover, and preferably off an objective as well. Also, Doom Sirens are good.

Havocs: Most people look at Havocs, giggle, and move on. Well, for those of you who did that, I want you to go back through your codex, and read through their weapon options. Doing it? Well, two things are awesome about these guys. Number 1: They can bring autocannons. Four of them. Stick'em in cover, keep'em there, and give'em M.o.N., and spray down those pesky MCs/Light Tanks until there aren't any of them left. THe other cool part? Meltaguns. 'nuff said.

Thousand Sons: I know these guys catch a lot of flak, but oh man are they useful. Sure, they're S&P. If you don't put'em in a rhino you should go back to your Vulkan He'stan spam list. You put these guys in an extra-armored rhino, gun towards an objective that your opponent put out in the middle of nowhere, thinking to negate those plaguemarines' pesky cover save+FNP. So you leave them there. Right on top of that objective. With a 4++ and AP: 3 Bolters. And a psyker. Pretty self-explanatory, I think.


Those units right there have won me more games than I can count, and I think a lot of it was because my opponent was just shocked to see me actually use them.

[BuFFo]

He's just complaining and using the codex as an excuse.

A lot of players like to whine about how "bland" and "boring" the codex is. And some units, like Tk Sons, aren't very competitive.

But the codex is still a potent one. There are enough powerful units that CSMs can still do very well.

Besides, they have Plague Marines and Obliterators:rolleyes:.

^^ This. Plus Noise Marines in Rhinos, Possessed and Lash.

[MajorSoB]

I agree 100% with this man. I love the look on people's faces when I toast a Terminator squad with Ahriman's Warptime/Wind of Chaos. Or when I charge Typhus into a squad in cover, relishing their looks of dread when they realize that Terminator with a Daemon-Force Weapon ALSO has Offensive Grenades and Winds of Chaos.

I also agree that CSM is a fun and playable codex but it isnt on par with many of the other codexes. "We was robbed" on some of our special characters like Lucius. According to fluff he is the best close combat fighter in the galaxy but he dies like a sissy anytime he is played. Abbadon is good but what did they do to Fabius Bile? Ahriman is good but he isnt quite the psyker an average Wolf Priest is let alone Njal, and that is from a chapter that according to fluff hates psykers! I play Typhus and while he has some advantage, please tell me why GW forgot to give any of the characters the ability to take retinues? Being able to pick out a character in close combat makes them much worse.


I love Deepstrike Obliterators within six inches of the biggest threat on the board (looking at you Manticores) and toasting them with twin-linked Meltaguns. I love having a Vindicator that can never be shaken or stunned.

Agreed!


I love running my World Eaters Dreadnought forward into the thick of battle and rolling that six on the Crazed chart. I love the groans that people give when they see Thousand Sons get out of a rhino right next to that pricey command/veteran squad.

This too can be fun, just wish dreadies were heavy instead of elite, then maybe I would take them!


I LOVE laughing at Eternal Warrior as I turn things into Chaos Spawn without my opponent having any chance in hell of taking a single save against it (except for the oh-so-rare psychic saves). I love bombing that TH/SS Terminator unit with Abaddon and four Khorne Termy champs with Twin LCs coming straight out of my LR.

Again this is good!


There are so many wonderfully awesome things about the Chaos Space Marine codex that seem to be overlooked in favor of things that would work in other codices. If I could relate the CSM 'dex and how I play it, it would be to how the Eldar's Aspects work. Each is tailored to a specific goal, and when people don't realize that they complain about how the codex sucks because his World Eaters got outshot by some Boyz. The CSM 'dex is definitely very unforgiving. It requires you to know exactly when to use it like a delicate blade in the hands of a Slaaneshi Lord or a giant, unstoppable hammer in the hands of a Daemon Prince.

Agreed.



When I play against another CSM player whose list is a rinse/wash/repeat list of Plaguemarine spam with Lash Princes, I laugh, because I know that that player hasn't taken the time to sit down and actually read through his codex to look at the very unhidden gems of the codex. What are they?

I too despise this since I am a cult purist, but if you read the rules there is no animosity between gods now! The reason I play spam plague marines is because I LOVE the FW models and had to have them. I also play a compete army of Slaanesh since blastmasters, sonic weapons, and doom sirens rock, it just too bad we lost all our vehicle upgrades like the warp amp! I also have a FW khorne army to be assembled, as well as a Thousand suns army and a black legion army in the works.


Chaos Lord with M.o.S., Wings, Melta Bombs, and Blissgiver: Coming in at an even 160 points, you get the ultimate HQ killer. Give him four or five Raptors as ablative casualties, slap on Mark of Slaanesh again to them, and you'll wipe out any marine squad before they get the chance to strike back. Well, five times out of every six, anyway. ;)

Bad move since again the lord can be picked out and doesnt have eternal warrior. Yes the deamon weapons are fun by GW screwed up since all lords are always one power fist away from dead at all times. It would have been nice if we had true retinues! Another drawback to attacking a lord to raptors is that they lose hit and run, which is one of the


Chosen with any mark. It doesn't matter. I prefer Tzeentch for the 5++, but the big shiny thing about these guys is that not only do they outflank with 5 meltaguns, but they can also have Meltabombs, AND you just brought in a squad into your opponent's rear with an Icon for deepstriking, and a Champion to turn into a Greater Daemon.

A decent tactic but it is too bad they are elite as well. If chosen were allowed to be purchased for lords, sorcerers and characters instead of filling up a valuable elite choice you would see alot more of them!


Noise Marines: These guys are one of the few real hidden gems. The thing that most people do to mess them up is give them a powerfist. If you're giving I:5 Space Marines a power fist, you're doing it wrong. These guys are for clearing anything up to and including Space Marines out of cover, and preferably off an objective as well. Also, Doom Sirens are good.

Agreed, see above. Be careful when using the doom siren since you can kill everything in charge range with it if you are careless.


Havocs: Most people look at Havocs, giggle, and move on. Well, for those of you who did that, I want you to go back through your codex, and read through their weapon options. Doing it? Well, two things are awesome about these guys. Number 1: They can bring autocannons. Four of them. Stick'em in cover, keep'em there, and give'em M.o.N., and spray down those pesky MCs/Light Tanks until there aren't any of them left. THe other cool part? Meltaguns. 'nuff said.

Price wise its better to give meltaguns to a troop squad, you can get 2 and that is all you ever need 9 out of 10 times!


Thousand Sons: I know these guys catch a lot of flak, but oh man are they useful. Sure, they're S&P. If you don't put'em in a rhino you should go back to your Vulkan He'stan spam list. You put these guys in an extra-armored rhino, gun towards an objective that your opponent put out in the middle of nowhere, thinking to negate those plaguemarines' pesky cover save+FNP. So you leave them there. Right on top of that objective. With a 4++ and AP: 3 Bolters. And a psyker. Pretty self-explanatory, I think.

TS are awesome models but the mandatory sorcerer makes each squad very pricey plus they suck in close combat. I wish we had one character in the codex on par with Vulkan.



Those units right there have won me more games than I can count, and I think a lot of it was because my opponent was just shocked to see me actually use them.

Again no one said CSM is unplayable or not fun. I enjoy my CSM but in comparison to the other current codexes or the previous CSM codex with cult rules, CSM is a former shadow of its once glorious self.

[Connjurus]

It's a rare thing that a squad survives a charge from an I: 6 Chaos Lord and some I: 5 Raptors. :p

Also, yeah Chosen are elite, but the only other two choices we have are Termies and Dreads. Considering that, I generally either take my Chosen Squad and two Term squads, or Chosen, Terms, and a Dread.

But I really gotta agree with you that it sucks we didn't get retinues. Oh well. Maybe when the supposed Legion 'dexes come out we'll see something a bit different?

And yeah, I love Plaguemarines too, but I don't spam them. I have 27 of them - only one actual metal squad, the other two are custom plaguemarines I made using Chaos Space Marine bits and skeleton/zombie bits from Vampire Counts in WHFB. But yeah, I don't spam them - I use them in conjunction with my other cult troops, as I don't take regular CSMs. They're good, don't get me wrong - nice Jack-of-all-Trades unit - but I just love the cult troops so much more. Nothing like putting that squad of Plaguemarines on an Objective in cover, and then pinning that Assault squad right before they get to charge with a Noisemarine Blastmaster.

But when it comes to havocs, you'll find that they're the exact same price as regular CSMs! Taking that into account, you can basically use them as killy units. I actually just tested out a build I think I'm gonna use from now on - two meltaguns and two plasmaguns in a seven man squad with M.o.T. no champ, though I might throw one in depending on the battle. Put'em in a rhino, and you've got a huge threat radius with an awesome mix - at the most, eight bolt shots, four plasma shots, and two melta shots. Makes even a Terminator squad a little nervous, yeah? And the Plasma isn't wasted when you shoot the meltas against vehicles most of them time, because it can still glance up to AV: 13.

And 1k Sons are DEFINITELY pricey, but I just love the look on someone's face when he charges my Sons, only to have me put all three of my Sorceror's attacks on that fancy multiwound HQ - especially since the Sorceror, who's basically a mini-HQ, can NOT be picked out individually. Combine that with the squad's 4++, and he's probably gonna live long enough to put the hurt on some stuff.

[Grabnutz]

And don't forget the Jack-in-a-box tactic... Give your tactical CSM squads vanilla aspiring champs. When the enemy avoid your really killycult units and head for the poor little CSM's sitting on an objective suddenly that aspiring champ feels all squirly and out pop's your Greater Daemon... hello boys :)

[Grabnutz]

At the end of the day most of us pick armies because we love the fluff that surrounds them. Competitive builds are all well and good, but are rarely much fun especially if they win all the time.

One thing I do to make my armies more 'real' is I name all the units, and their leaders. Some pick up nicknames from the other guys over the years and these make them more fun. One of my friends has a very useful DA Captain with a winged helmet, who has a tendency to lead from behind - he is now and forever will be Col.Chicken. Unfortunately we forget that that guy has a real bite if we get too close (as Bob the Blaster found out last night - he ignored the Col. and got a chainsword up his... well you know what).

As for my CSM lists, well I'm always tweaking them, but at the end of the day it's the General who wins a battle not the troops. I'm pretty sure that regular tournament players could beat me with ten grots armed with sporks. Do I look bothered?

[Connjurus]

All my HQ units definitely have names...but that's only because I write in my spare time and I like to give my army that "extra fluffy" feel. Lemme think...

Thousand Sons Daemon Prince: An'ak'tharos the Everchanging
Thousand Sons Chaos Lord/Sorceror Lord (I love that kit): Aten-Ra
World Eaters Lord: Sköl the Butcher
Death GuardSorceror: Eboliel the Pneumonic
Death Guard Lord: Lord Septicimiel
Emperor's Children Lord: Lascuvious the Vile

It's just so cool when someone with a name that sounds totally fluff-worthy that YOU came up with slaughters some poor guy's nameless captain, y'know? Especially if you've got some epic back-story to go along with it.

[Melissia]

Sure, the CSM codex isn't the worst, but it's only got several builds that are truly competitive, and even those have been seen and seen again to the point where they aren't surprising the opponent.
You mean, just like every other pre-5th edition army in the game?

Actually, having "several" builds puts them above a few of these armies.

[Bean]

Melissia has a point.

Frankly, a codex doesn't need to have multiple good builds to be a powerful codex. Only the most powerful really matters when you're looking at overall effectiveness of a codex.

And, of course, the CSMs good builds are pretty good. Top tier or near it. They're better than the best builds from the Vanilla codex, on par with the best builds from the SW codex, and competitive with the best builds from the Ork and Nid codices. They don't do so well against mech or jetbike eldar, but they're still a pretty strong army, all around.

Certainly, the assertion that Chaos just loses is wrong. While it's true that, to make a strong army, you have to ignore a significant majority of the units in the codex, that's true with almost every codex--and the army that the Chaos Codex produces when you only take its strong units is plenty strong enough.

[eagleboy7259]

Melissia has a point.

Frankly, a codex doesn't need to have multiple good builds to be a powerful codex. Only the most powerful really matters when you're looking at overall effectiveness of a codex.

And, of course, the CSMs good builds are pretty good. Top tier or near it. They're better than the best builds from the Vanilla codex, on par with the best builds from the SW codex, and competitive with the best builds from the Ork and Nid codices. They don't do so well against mech or jetbike eldar, but they're still a pretty strong army, all around.

Certainly, the assertion that Chaos just loses is wrong. While it's true that, to make a strong army, you have to ignore a significant majority of the units in the codex, that's true with almost every codex--and the army that the Chaos Codex produces when you only take its strong units is plenty strong enough.

Absolutely. Just look at Eldar, fully half the units in the book are complete garbage right now. Dark Angels, GK's, SoB, they all have even less. Heck we don't even have to hate on the older books, why don't we take a look at some of the 5th edition books like Tyranids and Space Marines? When was the last time you saw people playing around with Masters of the Forge, Land Speeder Storms, Biovores, or even Carnifexs (that last one makes me really sad that its that nerfed:( ) That is an enlightening way of thinking about it

[Melissia]

Masters of the Forge, Land Speeder Storms, Biovores, or even Carnifexs

Last Tuesday, actually. Well, except for the biovores, nobody likes them.

[Bean]

Sure, but, Melissia, the fact that people play them doesn't indicate that they are strong choices. In both cases, they clearly are not (though the master of the forge is worthwhile in large drop-pod armies, where you want more than three dreads).

[DarkLink]

Well, Biovores are a lot better than they used to be. In fact, they're actually decent, now.

Carnifexes are expensive, but they're still good, too.

And the only problem with the Master of the Forge is that the repair rule is way too weak.

Sure, there are better units than these in their respective codices, but they can be played. They're not Chaos Spawn or Repentia, after all.

[Bean]

Any unit can be played. All it takes for something to be bad is for it to be worse than some comparable alternative.

[Connjurus]

Spawn are only cool, when, the turn before, said Spawn was Marneus Calgar.

[Grabnutz]

Are you guys and gals actually saying that it is the Codex that wins battles? If so the majority of us should just give up now.

Good generalship wins battles, not the army you use. I'm pretty sure that anyone of the top tournament players could whip your ***** with any Codex you give him or her.

At the end of the day this hobby is about having fun, so play an army that appeals to you and stop blaming the Codex for your losses. next you'll start telling me you believe in the Dice Fairy...

[Connjurus]

No such thing as the dice fairy, but there is definitely such a thing as luck. Mathhammer all you want, it won't save you when you fail those four Terminator armor saves out of six wounds.

[Melissia]

Are you guys and gals actually saying that it is the Codex that wins battles?

No.

[BuFFo]

Absolutely. Just look at Eldar, fully half the units in the book are complete garbage right now. Dark Angels, GK's, SoB, they all have even less. Heck we don't even have to hate on the older books, why don't we take a look at some of the 5th edition books like Tyranids and Space Marines? When was the last time you saw people playing around with Masters of the Forge, Land Speeder Storms, Biovores, or even Carnifexs (that last one makes me really sad that its that nerfed:( ) That is an enlightening way of thinking about it

'Ard Boyz.... My 3rd round opponent had Biovores.... I ran mass Warriors on Foot for my Dark Eldar...

I had to kill his Biovores on the first turn, other wise, I would have lost the game right out of the start...

Luckily I dark lanced them to death.

Just because many players are too stupid to try new things, or NOT 'net list' their armies, doesn't mean unused units are bad. It just means they are unused.

[Bean]

Are you guys and gals actually saying that it is the Codex that wins battles? If so the majority of us should just give up now.


I don't think anyone said that.



Good generalship wins battles, not the army you use. I'm pretty sure that anyone of the top tournament players could whip your ***** with any Codex you give him or her.


This assertion, frankly, is just as absurd as the assertion that army lists are solely responsible for determining who wins and who loses. There are several factors which contribute to that determination. Disparity in player skill is only one of those factors, and it is not always the most important.

Disparity in luck, disparity in army quality, disparity in how much the terrain and scenario treat each army, and disparity caused by R/P/S style relationships (that is, a disparity which doesn't arise from disparity in the armies' "all comers" effectiveness, but which arises because one army is particularly effective or ineffective against the other) are all similarly important. Each can and frequently will participate in determining who wins and loses a game.





At the end of the day this hobby is about having fun, so play an army that appeals to you and stop blaming the Codex for your losses. next you'll start telling me you believe in the Dice Fairy...

Both the codex you're using and the distribution of the outcomes of your die rolls can have a significant impact on which games you win and which games you lose. Either can be and occasionally will be largely to blame for some particular loss--and in such a case, the responsible factor is appropriate, whether it's luck or a weak codex.

Pretending that there is no such thing as disparity in dice luck or disparity between codices, as you seem to be doing, here, is just naive.

[Grabnutz]

Hi Bean :D


I don't think anyone said that..

No they didn't, but it has been inferred by many here who have railed against the battle quality of the current CSM Codex and its apparent lack of effective/competitive builds.


This assertion, frankly, is just as absurd as the assertion that army lists are solely responsible for determining who wins and who loses. There are several factors which contribute to that determination. Disparity in player skill is only one of those factors, and it is not always the most important. .

I couldn't agree more. Which is why I waded in on the side of generalship rather than Codex. It is so easy to blame the codex, the rules, the army list, the dice fairy and even Games Workshop rather than recognizing that the buck really stops at the Player's feet.

I know this because I am a mediocre General at best. There again I really don't care if I win as long as the game was interesting and fun. As a result I tend to favour what are seen by some to be underdog sides, such as my long-suffering Halfling Bloodbowl Team.

The truth is that a skilled General will win more battles despite the inadequacies of the Codex, the Rules or the Army List and will know how to roll with the slings and arrows of gross misfortune given him by the dice fairy. He or she may not win every battle but they will win more.

If you pretend otherwise then you are fooling no-one but yourself.

[Renegade]

To put it simply however, the 3.5 codex was head and shoulders better than the 4.0 is. I know of very few CSM players that wouldn't mind being one of those that were not updated during 4ed if it meant they got to use the old codex.

Sure you can make good lists with the CSM, but nothing like what you could and thats where the complaints come from, not that its an underpowered codex.

[Bean]

I greatly prefer the current Chaos codex to the previous one. Most of the options (not all, but most) that were removed were pretty silly anyway, and the army that the current codex produces are head and shoulders (effectiveness-wise) above what you got from the old one.

[BuFFo]

I greatly prefer the current Chaos codex to the previous one. Most of the options (not all, but most) that were removed were pretty silly anyway, and the army that the current codex produces are head and shoulders (effectiveness-wise) above what you got from the old one.

Yeah you are right! Lets make the options less silly!

Lets remove wings from Greater Demons, whos models actually DO come with wings, and lets give wings to Demon Princes, who didn't come with Wings!

Both the old and new Codex had equally effective builds. One used the entire codex, including optional armies, while the other codex uses, um, Lashes and Plague Marines.

[DarkLink]

I prefer the current Chaos codex, back when I played Chaos.

The only problem with it, really, was one or two too many options were removed. If they'd allowed you to take Cult units other than troops (such as Terminator Berzerkers with permanent WS 5, +1A and Furious Charge) and similar, then I wouldn't have any complaints about the codex whatsoever.

[Melissia]

As well as a bit of repricing.

[Connjurus]

In terms of the units, Melissia, or actual cash? Because the kits themselves aren't that bad, not more than any other codex, definitely. And Khorne Berzerkers are a steal.

[eagleboy7259]

And Khorne Berzerkers are a steal.

And some of the oldest plastic molds still in use. I can't think of a model that we still use that they don't predate excluding special characters.

[Melissia]

In terms of the units, Melissia, or actual cash? Because the kits themselves aren't that bad, not more than any other codex, definitely. And Khorne Berzerkers are a steal.

Points. Bolt of Tzeentch comes to mind. A meltagun without melta, only it costs more than twice as much.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, Tksons in general are too expensive for what you get. I mean, seriously. They're the same price as Plague Marines. Guess which one's better. Raptors and bikers are over priced as well.

I do think it's worth noting that, at the time the Chaos codex came out, most of the stuff is priced comparably to similar units that were around at that time. That stuff has gotten cheaper since then, so naturally the Chaos stuff is a bit overpriced in general, with some exceptions such as Daemon Princes.

[erwos]

I prefer the current Chaos codex, back when I played Chaos.

The only problem with it, really, was one or two too many options were removed. If they'd allowed you to take Cult units other than troops (such as Terminator Berzerkers with permanent WS 5, +1A and Furious Charge) and similar, then I wouldn't have any complaints about the codex whatsoever.
I was completely stunned at the removal of marks. Definitely a case of GW getting too clever for their own good.

My biggest complaint with the current codex is that there are no vehicles in the fast attack section, whereas the heavy support section is just a bit too stuffed with the essentials. I don't need a skimmer, but some sort of pre-Heresy Razorback variant with scout or turbo-chargers (but no transport cap) would be much appreciated.

[Connjurus]

And some of the oldest plastic molds still in use. I can't think of a model that we still use that they don't predate excluding special characters.

And they still look really really really cool, don't they? Besides, the fact that you get 12 is nice.

I do wish they made Obliterators in plastic. :(

[eagleboy7259]

And they still look really really really cool, don't they? Besides, the fact that you get 12 is nice.

I do wish they made Obliterators in plastic. :(

I'll admit they don't quite show their age as much as a mold that old usually does in the GW line. Still when you put them side by side to the newer chaos marines you can definitely tell which is older, the backpacks, legs, and arms give them away.

I do wish they made 1/2 the demon line plastic, you have 1 unit that's metal, I dropped over $120 to get only 4 Blood Crushers to finish off my 1500pt list. I feel your pain.

[templarboy]

And they still look really really really cool, don't they? Besides, the fact that you get 12 is nice.

I do wish they made Obliterators in plastic. :(If they made Oblits in plastic, they could redesign them and make them less horribad. I like the Berzerkers but the FW upgrades are just plain gorgeous. Oh and I hate the CSM Codex for one reason and one reason alone. The Icon system is just plain stupid. "If I kill the guy with the flag pole, all those geezers will forget which god they dig and suddenly suck a bit." Ewww.

[Anders Lang1]

]The Previous Edition of the Codex was brilliant for those who wanted to do a themed army. For example it had a section containing rules for the Undivided Legions. And a section on extra rules for items on servants of the Gods e.g Khorne and Tzeentch. Elite units were quite messed up in the old codex Berserkers, Plaugue Marines, Thousend Sons and Noise marines were all elites unless your army had the permant mark of that god. Whilst the terminators were nowhere near as good as they are now...
Chosen had a much more diverse amount of upgrades to choose from. Although great for the more experianced players like me, who are firm believers in the Original traitor legions. Younger players found the messy armoury and confusing 'side effects' of wargear hard to find and much worse to get used to.

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/images/uploads/40k/chaosmarines/chaos-space-marines-codex.jpg

This Edition however, was more focused on easy organisable undivided warbands that could have a bit of everything. A NIGHTMARE for Traitor Legion Players. And as most 4th Edition Codexes it suffered from the mild desease of credibillity which makes it hard to compete with the powerful special rules of Fith Edition Codexes. The Terminators Have improved tenfold bieng able to upgrade them all into champions for just 10pts each. Where as the humble chosen became worse losing that great choice of wargear and veteran skills to a shoddy comprimise of infiltrate. What has improved however, is heavy support. Before only iron warrior players had acess to the famed vindicator, now everybody can have it!:D
Icons now don't mess up your army list and can be used to guide deep striking Oblitorators right up the Arse of your enemys prize tank!
But the most shocking crime of all is the apparent lack of the Trator legions. The original marine that turned on the imperium of man just get a short paragraph or two and mabye one model painted in the respected colours!!!!!:mad:
That, is what the two codexes contained and as im a fanaticle word Bearer (as any) i miss the Daemogogue and the accursed crozious not to mention what the Night lord, Alpha legion and Iron Warrior players miss.
The Book Of Legions!!!!!

[DarkLink]

] Younger players found the messy armoury and confusing 'side effects' of wargear hard to find and much worse to get used to.

I've heard selecting wargear for Chaos characters and units most accurately compared to filling out your taxes. And even if you managed to understand it, it would take your opponent an hour to go through your list and verify that it was actually legal, if they wanted to know.

[eagleboy7259]

I've heard selecting wargear for Chaos characters and units most accurately compared to filling out your taxes. And even if you managed to understand it, it would take your opponent an hour to go through your list and verify that it was actually legal, if they wanted to know.

Yeah it was sometimes a nightmare but since the list of things you would usually see on the battlefield consisted of only about 25% of the available armory it wasn't really too bad. A good majority of it was pretty self explanatory: Marks of Chaos, Weapons, Wargear, and Veteran Skills. Daemonic Gifts were really only seen on HQ choices and could have been handled better, like the Carnifex entry in 4th ed Tyranid Codex, but it worked.

Really IMOP that book is how the Big Five loyalist legions should have been handled, because you could effectively make armies, fluffy and competitive, for all 9 traitor legions with that book.

[DarkLink]

Well, the Chapter tactics had the potential for that. They could and should have made it so you selected one Chapter Tactics. Each chapter would have a different set of rules for their tactics, similar to the special character rules. You would also gain access to a few unique units for each chapter.

For example;

Chapter Tactics: Dark Angels
All units with the Chapter Tactics special rule gain the Stubborn USR.

If a Captain in Terminator armor is taken, then Terminators may be taken as troops. Mortis Dreads may be taken.



Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels
All units have the Black Rage special rule.

Assault squads may be taken as Troops. Furioso Dreads and Baal Predators may be taken.



Chapter Tactics: Black Templar
All units have the Righteous Zeal special rules. Any unit equipped with a Bolter and Bolt Pistol may exchange the Bolter for a CCW.

Tactical squads may take 0-10 Neophytes (Scouts). The army may take an Emperor's Champion.


There would be one for each major Chapter, and could also represent successor chapters. And obviously the rules would be more expansive than this, with more available units depending on the Chapter. But you could fit every chapter (except the Grey Knights) all into one book with a system like this.