Special Characters and Initiative

[Moros]

Hey all, quick question here. I looked for an answer in the forums but couldn't find one.

Some special characters have weapons that say they act like a powerfist. For instance, Huron Blackheart with his Tyrant's Claw special weapon. Now, normally Huron has an initiative of 5. Does the fact that his weapon counts as a powerfist mean that he strikes at initiative 1?

I would think no, he would still attack at inititive 5 cause why then wouldn't he have an inititive of 1 in his profile.

What say you?

[Nabterayl]

Weapons that act like a power fist do indeed reduce the user's Initiative to 1 when the user is using that weapon. Remember, though, that a power fist doesn't actually change the user's Initiative - it only changes the user's Initiative for purposes of striking blows. Various situations in which Huron Blackheart could take advantage of his Initiative of 5:
He's using his power sword instead of the Tyrant's Claw.
He's hit by Jaws of the World Wolf, or any other power that calls upon him to make an Initiative test.
He's testing for a Sweeping Advance.

[DarkLink]

He strikes at I 1.

The Initiative in the profile is a model's base initiative. However, this can be modified and overridden by wargear and special rules, such as power fists. Since Huron is equipped with a powerfist, which always strikes at I 1, it doesn't matter what his base initiative is, he strikes at I 1.

[Nabterayl]

Since Huron is equipped with a powerfist, which always strikes at I 1, it doesn't matter what his base initiative is, he strikes at I 1.
Tsk tsk, DarkLink ;) He strikes at I1 when using the powerfist. Being equipped with a powerfist has nothing to do with it, especially since Huron is also equipped with a power weapon that he can use instead of his powerfist.

I know you knew that, but I just wanted to be clear for the OP's sake.

[Moros]

Are there any official sources for this? I couldn't find anything in the FAQs.

Also, if that is the case, does that mean that abbadon goes at init 1? Cause his weapon 'acts like' a powerfist too. By doubling the strength.

[Necrosis]

Are there any official sources for this? I couldn't find anything in the FAQs.

Also, if that is the case, does that mean that abbadon goes at init 1? Cause his weapon 'acts like' a powerfist too. By doubling the strength.

Abbadon weapon is not a powerfist but a daemon weapon which doubles his strenght and allows him to re-roll failed to wounds.

[Sir Biscuit]

Look at page 42 of the main rulebook: all powerfists reduce the user to I1.

Though Abaddon has a weapon with similar effects as a powerfist, he does not, in fact, use a powerfist so his initiative remains unaffected.

[Nabterayl]

Are there any official sources for this? I couldn't find anything in the FAQs.
FAQs aren't where to look; this is all covered in the main rulebook. Here's what you're looking for:

Page 35: All engaged models will fight in this turn's Assault phase with their full number of Attacks and use any special close combat attack they have.

This means that if you have a single special CCW, you must use it (note that this is a change from 4th edition). As we will see later, if you have more than one special CCW, you get to pick which one you use, though you can only ever use one at a time.

Page 42: SPECIAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS - These include more complex and powerful weapons that enhance the wielder's combat skills and confer bonuses, and sometimes penalties, to the models using them.
[i]This means that you have to be "using" a special CCW in order for its special rules to affect you. It is not enough to be equipped with the special CCW; you have to be using it (side note: this is why lightning claws don't allow your bolter to re-roll failed rolls to wound).

Page 42: Power fists, however, are difficult and cumbersome to use, so attacks with a power fist are always delivered at Initiative 1.

Note that the rules never say that a model equipped with or using a power fist becomes Initiative 1. What they actually say is that the actual Initiative of a model using a power fist is unchanged - an I5 model using a power fist does not magically become I1; instead, he is an I5 model that strikes at Initiative 1.

Page 42: Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations. Of course, if a model is using a two-handed close combat weapon ... it may not use it together with another weapon.

This is the rule that allows a model equipped with more than one special CCW to pick which one it uses.

So to sum up, here's how you analyze Huron according to the rules:
Huron is equipped with the Tyrant's Claw (which is a power fist, among other things) and a power weapon. Because he has a special close combat attack, he must use it, according to page 35.
Because Huron is equipped with two special close combat attacks, he may choose which one to use, according to page 42. Note that according to page 35 he must use one of them - he cannot choose to use his fists (I don't know why you'd ever want to, but if you did, you can't).
If Huron chooses to use his power fist (i.e., the Tyrant's Claw), he strikes at Initiative 1 (but remains Initiative 5 for all other purposes) and at Strength 8, and ignores armor saves, according to the rules for power fists on page 42.
If Huron chooses to use his power weapon, he strikes at Initiative 5 (and remains Initiative 5 for all other purposes) and at Strength 4, and ignores armor saves, according to the rules for power weapons on page 42.

[sebi81]

the difference between huron and abbadon is, that hurons claw acts like a power fist. so if you want to know how it works, you have to look in the rule book. there it states that a power fist ignores armour, doubles strength and reduces initiative to 1.
abbadons claw just doubles his strength. it does not act or work like a power fist. so you don't have to look under power fist in the rule book. the rules for abbadons weapons are covered in the codex.

[DarkLink]

Tsk tsk, DarkLink ;) He strikes at I1 when using the powerfist. Being equipped with a powerfist has nothing to do with it, especially since Huron is also equipped with a power weapon that he can use instead of his powerfist.

I know you knew that, but I just wanted to be clear for the OP's sake.

Yeah, I was just... uh... testing you. Yeah;).

[DelphicFist]

The thing that bugs me is that on an Ironclad dread you can replace the sizmic hammer with a chainfist then you strike at initiative one. I suppose you could always strike with the normal dread weapon and get regular initiative. I think you would still get the extra attack too as it's listed as 2(3) when you have the sizemic hammer.

Now if you just have the chainfist you're screwed. It's sort of lame it reduces the Dreads initiative. It's a Dread! :eek:

[Gir]

The thing that bugs me is that on an Ironclad dread you can replace the sizmic hammer with a chainfist then you strike at initiative one. I suppose you could always strike with the normal dread weapon and get regular initiative. I think you would still get the extra attack too as it's listed as 2(3) when you have the sizemic hammer.

Now if you just have the chainfist you're screwed. It's sort of lame it reduces the Dreads initiative. It's a Dread! :eek:

The the downside of the free upgrade.