Hypothetical Titan Question

[Nabterayl]

I've always been curious why people seem intimidated by the larger titans. For instance, for the price of a single Emperor titan, a body might field 24 reasonably equipped Hammerheads, 75 blaster-equipped battlesuits, 47 power klaws on bikes, 50 double-multi-melta Land Speeders, the list goes on.

I'm asking because I've never actually played a game with anything this large, so maybe there's a practical reality that I'm not getting, and I'm curious. I understand that the really large titans can lay down an impressive amount of Destroyer firepower, but at the same time it seems like most of the time there's a price-equivalent option that would virtually guarantee their destruction several times over on all but the very largest of boards. Am I not seeing something?

[DarkLink]

If you mathhammer it out, Titans are well worth their points. Even if you take, say an equal number of points of Broadsides in cover, the titan may well still win out. And who actually has that many broadsides, anyways.


Plus, an Imperitor class titan can literally cover, like, 3-4 square feet of board with Str D pie-plates. No other 4000 points in the game can even come close to matching that. The Imperitor could easily be 8000pts and stil be well worth it.

[Nabterayl]

If you mathhammer it out, Titans are well worth their points. Even if you take, say an equal number of points of Broadsides in cover, the titan may well still win out. And who actually has that many broadsides, anyways.


Plus, an Imperitor class titan can literally cover, like, 3-4 square feet of board with Str D pie-plates. No other 4000 points in the game can even come close to matching that. The Imperitor could easily be 8000pts and stil be well worth it.
I see the utility of the firepower; what I wonder about is the survivability. Is it really that hard to get inside the void shields with several dozen Deep Striking meltas, high-WS powerfists (e.g., an Imperator has a 19% chance of killing a nob in a reasonably equipped hunting squad CC), or other go-to fast-moving deathstar hunting solutions?

I know there's a real-world pricepoint issue here, but we're also talking about somebody facing a large titan in the first place, which is its own pricepoint issue.

[plasticaddict]

Void shields (8) aren't the problem. High armor value (14/14/13) combined with structure points (12) and self repair capabilites are the problem. Add in the models that an Emperor can carry with three fire points in each leg for close defense and you have a tough nut to crack. Now I can put my 21 Hammerhead gunships on the table for the same cost but I wouldn't count on them being able to take down the Titan. And I'll put a Hammerhead up against any unit in the game.

[Sir Biscuit]

Really, there is simply a lot of value in the ability to kill large piles of things very dead, very quickly.

I own a Warhound titan. Mars Pattern, Twin Turbo-Laser and Plasma Blastgun. It's unbelievably good. Let's talk about each of the aspects that make it so deadly, and so worth it's points:
1.) It's mobile. It moves 12" a turn, and can fleet up to an additional 2d6". Remember, it's movement counts as a tank shock as well, so it can't be penned in by mass infantry. This means that it can almost always get the angle it needs to get a shot off, and it's pretty safe from powerful melee threats that could bring it down, and most melta weaponry.
2.) Melee. A titan doesn't have a lot to fear in melee. Remember, all titans follow the rules for normal walkers, which means that any melee attack is made against the front AV14, and grenades/melta bombs are difficult to attach. The stomp attack means that anything without an invuln save is going to lose 40% of their unit each melee round. In addition, it can't be locked in melee (except against other titans and monstrous creatures!) so it's mobility is not decreased by engaging in it. Against tanks it charges it's 2 S10 ordinance attacks. Ka-boom.
3.) Range. It has loooooong range. It's shortest weapon fires 72", but both can fire 96". When you move 12" and can fire 72", you don't fear a lot of long-range weaponry. Especially with Void shields. More importantly, this range means that anywhere you are on the board, you can still inflict terrible damage.
4.) Raw killing power. Those guns do NOT mess around. Melta guns, even twin linked ones in half range, are piddly anti-tank compared to a twin turbo-laser. Make no mistake, that gun WILL kill whatever tank it shoots at, and will horrendously cripple superheavies. If it fires at infantry, they go away. AP2, auto-wound, ignores cover twin large blast templates kill just about anything. The Blastgun's no slouch either, and is what I think of as my "anti-infantry" weapon. Two 7" or one 10" at S8+ means that I instant-death marines en-mass, while denying an armor save, and no horde stands a chance. Remember, LOS is measured fro the guns, and in this case those guns are pretty high off the ground... the enemy will not be receiving cover saves from intervening units, and will not be able to hide behind their tanks.

Now, let's talk tactics, and survivability:
1.) Do not start the titan on the table. Do not start the titan on the table. DO. NOT. START. THE. TITAN. ON. THE. TABLE. In apocalypse you have ABSOLUTE control of your reserves. You can avoid certain death by putting on in turn two or three. (Or, if you take careful planning, turn one after you see what the enemy has.) Once you see if the enemy brought any counters, bring him out far, far away from them. Kill them with your guns or just stay out of range. It's not hard on a massive Apoc table.
2.) Support the damn titan. It's good at killing things, but it can be easily overwhelmed if you have it running about on its own. Lots of things can deep strike and smash a chunk out of you, so make an infantry buffer. Often, my titan walks onto the field and into a waiting circle of 50 spread out guardsman. Deep strike now, suckers.
3.) You will take damage. Welcome to 40k. Everything dies. Don't panic and run your titan into the enemy when this happens. Relax, and just keep firing. Void shields regenerate and you're not done until SP3 disappears. Don't charge into the enemy line once you're low either... that chance of an apocalyptic explosion is very low.
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Now, this is all for a smaller titan, but I think a lot of the same lessons apply.

If you are playing with a bigger titan (really, any titan that takes up the lion's share of your points) then let your opponents go first. Bid a million billion on deployment time. See what they do. If they put their counter on the table, excellent. If it ranged reserve. If it's not, deploy far away from it.

Since the majority of your army is invested in the titan, you'll want an asset that makes it better. Replacements is the obvious candidate, but let's be honest, you and your group will patch that so it doesn't work on superheavies. So then, the one we want is either a Strategic Redeployment or Careful Planning. Careful Planning is nice, as it allows for a first turn walk-on. Strategic redeployment is probably the better option, however, as it allows you to dash away before nasty enemy close-rangers can get to you. In addition, it allows you to keep the enemy out of the minimum range of your carapace weaponry.

Second, you'll want some techpriests. Get some. You already bought a gigantic titan, so spare a little more for some damn support. Techpriests can only repair one thing on your titan, but it's an important one: destroyed weapons. Especially with a titan like the Imperitor, you will likely lose 1/2 or more of your guns before you run out of structure points. This must not happen. Firepower is life. Have them in Rhinos, or, if you're running the Imperitor, simply have them stand in the legs. Hurray.

Now, how do you deal with a hard counter to your titan? Like the list you made? Mostly, you don't worry about it. No one's going to bring that many land speeders, or claw nobs, or battlesuits. It's even less feasible than the titan. If they do, you outbid them for time. You can see the enemy reserves, take second turn, bring the titan on at the beginning of your third turn. They can't hold back their counters, and they will be at your mercy when you come on.

Because, let's be honest, what survives a full Imperitor barrage? Once it's on the board and the threat isn't imminent, I have trouble coming up with something that can stop it.

[gridespider]

Nice.

Thank you for those tactics on titans. Its good to know there are other owners of these metal Gods, who dominate the table.

[Nabterayl]

Thanks, Sir Biscuit. That was just the sort of balanced consideration I was hoping somebody would post. Reading between the lines, then, it sounds like what you're telling me is:

An Emperor probably would lose to 75 deep-striking BS4 twin-linked fusion blasters in a one-on-75 match,
but if one were playing a 4,000 point game, one would be foolish to make one's entire army an Emperor titan (because you wouldn't be able to support the titan with anything), and
in a game large enough to justify taking an Emperor, the Emperor's supporting elements would be sufficient to prevent a points-equivalent non-superheavy hard counter from performing its job until the counter's own supporting elements (whose job it would be neutralize the Emperor's supporting elements) were dead at the Emperor's hands - er, guns.

Am I getting that about right?

[SotonShades]

From my experience using my Warlord, it's usually the case that there is something that is significantly less points that will take it out!

First game I used it, it got taken out by a single Ork Stompa in two rounds of combat. Another good example was the last game I played, where it was taken out in a single round of combat by a flank marching Brass Scorpion. Ok, in both these cases my opponants rolled really well and I rolled exceedingly badly, but these models are a fraction of the cost of my Warlord, and in both games the Warlord didn't come anywhere close to earning its points back. In the first game it actually took out more models when it went Apocolyptic and rolled 32" for the blast radius than it killed before it died (unfortunately not the Stompa that killed it...)

On the otherhand, in a single game I have used it to take out 5 Stompas, a Warhound and two Eldar Revenants, plus a score of smaller models that been around them.

It does appear to be rather hit and miss with these large titans. Either people are so scared of them (but know how the game works well enough) that the majority of their early battle plan revolves around taking them out, OR they simply assume they cannot take it out and do their best to ignore it.

Sure it has 6 void shields, but they are only AV12 and only require a glance to pop... I know for 2500 points I would be quite upset if I didn't at least glace 6 AV12 vehicles a turn using a balanced list, let alone a titan-hunting force! And let's not forget that once you are within 12", those shields count for nothing. A fire Dragon squad in a Waveserpent has actually got a pretty decent shot at crippling a Warlord in a single round of shooting if they get close enough. Most units geared up for tank hunting do... and lets not even get into Monstrous/Gargantuan Creatures that get into combat...

They can skew the balance of a game if you try to use them without your opponant(s) knowing beforehand, but if you try to win by bringing something that big without giving your opponant a chance to bring something to counter it; well, it's just not in the spirit of the game really.

Another good point Nabterayl and Sir Biscuit have made; these guys are for big games! Personnally I wouldnt want to use a Warhound in a game much less than 5000 points... they just become a points sink otherwise. As for a Warlord, 7000-8000 as a minimum? I've yet to run it in a list under 10k (except for a Walker War game where i have no idea as to what the points cost was, but all I had was a Warlord and 5 Space Marine Dreadnoughts). I am going to assume the GW didn't spend a whole lot of time playtesting the rule for the Imperator and Warlord, making these behemoths as balanced as they possibly could be, but this is Apocolypse! Balance is out the window in favour of having fun. Just don't be a douche with them. Half time they will rule the battlefield, taking almost no damage and decimating the enemy. The other half, your opponant will somehow get the drop on you and neutre what is undeniably an exceedingly powerful asset. that is war folks.

[tjkopena]

Disrupter Beacon is also a very important stratagem, to keep the opponent from Deep Striking directly onto your Titan and getting inside its void shields. Without that cover it's fairly vulnerable to Sternguard w/ Combi-Meltas in Drop Pods and that sort of thing.

[Faultie]

My problem with them is that dedicated anti-titan units are often not super-effective against non-titans.
What I've relied on is flying Shaper Councils with Eviscerators (20x WS4 S8+2d6 attacks for ~330 pts). Alternatively, you can get them on foot w/ hounds, and still have them assault first turn, and it gives a few ablative wounds as well.

The problem is, in melee with anything else, they can get chopped up pretty fast. Also, after their first-turn-assault, they're often dead, even with T4 or 6th Sense. Thus, by taking these, I end up reacting to my enemy's list instead of building my own.
That said, they can really om-nom some titans, and super-heavy non-titans are even more om-nom-able.

It is also important to remember that there is no +1 to pen for AP1 on the super-heavy vehicle damage table.

[Gir]

It is also important to remember that there is no +1 to pen for AP1 on the super-heavy vehicle damage table.

Yes there is. It's in Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2 which is basically the rules for 5th ed apocalypse.

[Faultie]

Yes there is. It's in Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2 which is basically the rules for 5th ed apocalypse.
Oh, sorry. We generally use the GW rulebooks. I didn't know FW had taken over Apoc for 5e.

Good to know! Looks like it's time to order a new book! (I need some Knarlocs anyway!)

[fuzzbuket]

people play titans cause a walking cathedral with guns is just too cool :D

[SotonShades]

Yeh absolutely, thank you for reminding me of that. Still, occasionally they get destroyed (damn flyers do far too good a job of this) and some times a unit or two still manages to get through.

[Sir Biscuit]

Quick not on the disruption beacon: it's not actually a great choice. It appears so at first, but those field assets are VERY easy to destroy and a clever enemy will easily be able to take it out before dropping. Reserves control is the only sure thing in an apocalypse game. I cannot stress this enough. You need to come in AFTER any alpha-strike threat has been expended, and far away from the enemy. The Imperator cannot even shoot most of its weaponry at enemies with in 36”… so keep away!


Thanks, Sir Biscuit. That was just the sort of balanced consideration I was hoping somebody would post. Reading between the lines, then, it sounds like what you're telling me is:

An Emperor probably would lose to 75 deep-striking BS4 twin-linked fusion blasters in a one-on-75 match,
but if one were playing a 4,000 point game, one would be foolish to make one's entire army an Emperor titan (because you wouldn't be able to support the titan with anything), and
in a game large enough to justify taking an Emperor, the Emperor's supporting elements would be sufficient to prevent a points-equivalent non-superheavy hard counter from performing its job until the counter's own supporting elements (whose job it would be neutralize the Emperor's supporting elements) were dead at the Emperor's hands - er, guns.

Am I getting that about right?

Absolutely.

Rule one of 40k, the harshest lesson that every new player leans, is that everything dies in 40k. No exceptions. The Imperator will only survive if you can support it.

A good way to think about it is like a tank in urban warfare. If the tank goes in alone, it is extremely vulnerable, as it only has a limited swivel machine gun to assist it, and it takes far too much time to bring its main gun to bear on potential threats, if there is even space to do so. It's at the mercy of enemies that can strike from any direction at any time, and disappear before retaliation. A single man with an RPG is a great threat, simply because the tank has no recourse or way to stop him. However, if that same tank is escorted by infantry, it's a whole different matter. No longer is the tank helpless: it is now part of a larger unit that can react swiftly, suppress the enemy, and allows for the time it takes to get that main weapon to bear. They can even chase the enemy if it's required.

It's the same in 40k, and not just with titans, though that is the topic I will stick with. Individual units that work in concert with each other effectively make a larger, more effective unit. The most obvious example is using a small unit to screen a larger one with cover saves. Another would be using a skimmer to block and stop a powerful assault unit that is going to charge one of your shooting units. Good players build their whole army with this in mind, which is why their lists always seem to run like well-oiled machines.

The tank metaphor extends further with an Imperator. No matter how big your game, if you brought an Imperator, that is your tank and everything else is your escorting infantry, there to make sure it stays alive. If you're playing 10,000 points, that 4,000 Imperator is still the vast majority of your firepower. That's why your stratagems will be used to protect it, and all your other forces will be running interference and neutering threats.

I do think that the Imperator is worth it… run well; I have difficulty seeing how it could be defeated, honestly. However, it will change the entire organization of your force, and the way that the game is played. It will no longer be a struggle for objectives, there will be only one: Kill the titan, or be tabled. I don’t think this is as much of a concern with the smaller superheavies, but with the Imperator those are the only options.

[tjkopena]

Quick not on the disruption beacon: it's not actually a great choice. It appears so at first, but those field assets are VERY easy to destroy and a clever enemy will easily be able to take it out before dropping.

By the same token, a clever enemy will easily be able to defend their Beacon and prevent you from taking it out before dropping, just like any other important unit.

I've seen that comment before about the destructability of the field assets, just like I've seen comments about the Disruptor Beacon being in the core set of indispensable assets. How easily destroyed they are depends a lot on the players, terrain, and models used for the assets. In the Apoc game we just ran here over the weekend, both sides would have had to expend ridiculous effort to get at the others' Disruptor Beacon---both were placed without any LOS from any reasonable range, even from the Titans, and assaulting either would have entailed going through the core of the opposing army. Taking them down could have been done, but it would have required a lot of attention that wound up being spent elsewhere on both sides, so they stayed up the whole game.

Like the rest of your post, that I mostly agree with, the assets only work if they gel with the rest of your army. If you put them out there unsupported & undefended, sure, they're going to be destroyed. But they're not magically auto-killable or anything like that, you can defend them just as easily as you can any other semi-fragile but important unit.

[Tynskel]

Oh, sorry. We generally use the GW rulebooks. I didn't know FW had taken over Apoc for 5e.

Good to know! Looks like it's time to order a new book! (I need some Knarlocs anyway!)

If you are just using GW rules:

The apoc book uses all the vehicles rules with some additions. AP1 applies to vehicles- +1 on the Damage Table.

The thing about deep striking a million battle suits is that you have to have a place to put them-- it isn't hard to have an infantry blob around the titan that will prevent the assault by crisis suits/deep strikers.


Titan killing formations are what you should use against a titan. Emperor's Basilisk Company + a Shadow Sword Formation should do the trick quite nicely!

Another great way to deal with a titan is, titans! Specifically, Knight Titans. Take the datafax of 5 Lancer titans: Preferred Enemy and Tank Hunters vs a target (enemy Titan). Then flank march and run ya butt in! 15 re-rolling to hit + almost always auto pen (11+ 2d6(roll 2d6 per die and pick the highest) +1 Dmg table hits will slay a large titan quite quickly-- that's 1650 points.

Another great way to shut down titans: Thunder Hammers. You get enough Thunder Hammer hits in (not damage rolls), the Titan is essentially dead-- no titan stomp, no moving, no shooting. And we are not even talking about the damage that Thunder Hammers can do. Last weekend- I threw 20 (10 were killed already!) Terminators, only 7 with Thunder Hammers, at a Tau Titan (the thing looked sweet! 1750 points!!!). First round, I had shut the thing completely down, second round, it vaporized my terminators (4 Survived!), and ~10 Enemy Tanks too-- those tanks were using the IA Tank Ace rules-- ~200+ points per tank.

[Nabterayl]

Another great way to shut down titans: Thunder Hammers. You get enough Thunder Hammer hits in (not damage rolls), the Titan is essentially dead-- no titan stomp, no moving, no shooting.
How do thunder hammers shut down a titan stomp?

[Gotthammer]

The apoc book uses all the vehicles rules with some additions. AP1 applies to vehicles- +1 on the Damage Table.

Gotta disagree here, page 92 of Apocallypse is specific about what to do against a superheavy, and only mentions Destroyer and Glancing as the sole modifiers (no open topped, ordnance [as this was 4th ed])- but it's all rather moot now!


With Thunder Hammers I think he's getting at hitting it with a Driver Stunned result so it only has 1 attack and may not stomp, and then inflicting gun crew stunnings.

[Sir Biscuit]

To my knowledge, Thunder Hammers do nothing to superheavy vehicles. Thunder hammers inflict a "crew shaken" result which is not applicable to superheavies. At least, that's the way we play it 'round here.

And even if you could, how do you catch the titan? It moves 12" a turn, and the smaller ones can run even further. Plus, it goes through terrain much faster. It's something that always confused me about the titanhammer formation... surely it can't actually catch anything?

As for Front Line strategic assets, I will go into more detail. They are an immobile AV13 marker, and any glance or pen destroys them automatically. Now, at first, that seems pretty hardy: stick it somewhere out of sight, in your lines, and let it do its thing.

Unfortunately, these assets have two big weaknesses: the first is that they are immobile. That means that to receive their benefits, you will need to be within their radius of effect. Now, the distruptor beacon is pretty big: 48" covers a lot of board, so that is less of an issue. However, you will need to defend it if you want it to keep working through the game. (Or at least until the end of turn three, when the last of the reserves have arrived.) That means less units for taking objectives, and for supporting the attack elements of the army. It's more than an investment of 250 points, (the "cost" of an asset, more or less,) it's also an investment of manpower that drains the rest of your army.

Second, even then it IS easily destroyed, by one of the more common exotic units in apocalypse: fliers. A thunderbolt fighter with a Tl Lascannon and two TL Autocannons stand a pretty good chance of knocking out a Front Line asset in a single salvo, (About an 87% chance, remember, it just needs ONE glance/pen!) and its unlimited mobility meant that it WILL get that shot. While fliers don't end up in every apocalypse game, I would be shocked if each side weren't fielding 4-5 at the points level required for an Imperator to be present. (4000+ points per player.)

But yes, it is a good defense if you can defend it. I wouldn't rely on it though. With reserves I know that I can outlast the enemy and minimize the damage, but the beacon is reliant on too many things for my taste. (Deployment, available cover, troops to defend it, the enemy forgetting fliers, etc.)

[Kirsten]

Personally I find the best way to deal with hypothetical titans is carefully constructed logical arguments to disprove their existence. The only problem is that if your opponent has spent a long time thinking up the titan, they may be a little bitter.

[Faultie]

Gotta disagree here, page 92 of Apocallypse is specific about what to do against a superheavy, and only mentions Destroyer and Glancing as the sole modifiers (no open topped, ordnance [as this was 4th ed])- but it's all rather moot now!Correct. IA:Apoc 2 apparently addresses this, but the "Vehicle Damage table" and the "Super-Heavy Damage Table" are two different things. Likewise, "Crew - Shaken" is not found on the "Super-Heavy Damage Table", not that it matters because a Titan can neither suffer a wound, nor is it a vehicle without an Initiative value, so a Thunderhammer has no special effects upon it anyway (like a dreadnaught, right?)


To my knowledge, Thunder Hammers do nothing to superheavy vehicles. Thunder hammers inflict a "crew shaken" result which is not applicable to superheavies. At least, that's the way we play it 'round here.

[Nabterayl]

Correct. IA:Apoc 2 apparently addresses this, but the "Vehicle Damage table" and the "Super-Heavy Damage Table" are two different things.
IAA2's super-heavy damage table gives -2 for a glancing hit and +1 for destroyer/AP1 hits. It does not, however, address the thunder hammer issue, so thunder hammers still do nothing against super-heavies (absent a house rule to count "Gun Crew Shaken" as "Crew Shaken," of course).

[Tynskel]

IAA2's super-heavy damage table gives -2 for a glancing hit and +1 for destroyer/AP1 hits. It does not, however, address the thunder hammer issue, so thunder hammers still do nothing against super-heavies (absent a house rule to count "Gun Crew Shaken" as "Crew Shaken," of course).

Well, That's not how we play around here. Thunder Hammers cause tha' shaken, Meltas melts the stuff, ect. As Sir Biscuit put it-- what else would the Titan Hammer be for (other than a silly grenade).

Remember, Apoc is a compromise rule set-- you need a moderator and an agreed upon way to play. Example: My group bans the Disruption Beacon- destroys so many formations and armies for a simple asset. We also ban Vortex Grenades, so the Titan Hammers don't even get them.

Terminators can pretty easily catch the big titans. If you teleport near them, the 12" move means nothing unless the titan is moving directly away from the Terminators-- I have yet to see this actually happen in any of the Apoc games that I have played--- the titan moves, but it would be moving to get a better firing solution- if you are playing smart, you can guess where the titan is going to go and deep strike appropriately.

[SotonShades]

And even if you could, how do you catch the titan? It moves 12" a turn, and the smaller ones can run even further. Plus, it goes through terrain much faster. It's something that always confused me about the titanhammer formation... surely it can't actually catch anything?

Well there is quite a simple answer to that; planning. I think it is fair to say that most units in 40k are capable of moving more than 6" a turn if they want to. Let's face it, the Titanhammer formation isn't exactly sacrificing any firepower to run. But they are still going to be moving more slowly than their prey. So what do you do? Think more than one turn ahead.

I'm going to go back to your tank analogy. A modern tank (particularly those used by MEDC Western nations, are capable of off-road speeds in excess of 40mph. However to allow the accompanying troops to protect it, especially in urban environments, it will travel at a slow walking pace at best. As such, they can't roam around the battlefield at the speeds they are capable of and so Top Brass making the decisions have to plan, placing the tanks where they are expecting resistence to be feircest, or where they are expecting to find other armoured opponants or fortified positions.

Similarly with a Titanhammer formation, you have to try to predict where your opponant will be moving his Titan and prepare to intercept. Ofcourse, unlike a modern tank, Titanhammer formations can Deep Strike close to their target, without scattering I might add. Given that each Sergeant and the Captain has a Vortex Grenade, dropping the squad within 6" of any super-heavies you have to destroy and lobbing a vortex or two at them can have a devastating effect. Maybe you won't kill off a Warlord or an Imperator, but you will cripple it. Don't forget that those Vorticies linger as well, so you maye get two or three shots at causing D3 structure points of damage a turn with some luck. Esepecially if you can cause a drive damaged result from the rest of your army's shooting

[SotonShades]

Another point to consider when thinking about how fast titans move is their physical size. Sure they can move 12", but a Warhound is nearly 8" long and the better part of 11" wide depending on how you build them. My Warlord is so large I've had to put it on a base. The base is actually 12" long by 15" wide.

I'm sure you can do the math here and see that moveing 12" is only moving so that the back of the base is where the front was. This almost always means that if you could have assualted it last turn, you will almost certainly be able to assault it next turn unless it is moving directly away from you at full speed, which I can assure you, with the rest of an army around it's feet, as well as other terrain, isn't always as easy as it sounds.

Yes the smaller titans can move a bit faster, but it is at the expense of shooting. Given their Armour value on the front, I usually prefer to keep the destructive ability of the titan as high as possible at least until it has a weapon destroyed result.

[tjkopena]

Terminators can pretty easily catch the big titans. If you teleport near them, the 12" move means nothing unless the titan is moving directly away from the Terminators-- I have yet to see this actually happen in any of the Apoc games that I have played--- the titan moves, but it would be moving to get a better firing solution- if you are playing smart, you can guess where the titan is going to go and deep strike appropriately.

It's definitely possible. Again this past weekend, a lot of Chaos Terminators flank marched behind one of the Imperial Titans, and it just kept moving forward just enough to stay out of assault range. If there's difficult terrain around, as there was in this case, it doesn't even have to move that far to put the Termies well behind it.

Terminators have mobility problems in general after Deep Striking in, and the Titan's improved mobility only makes that worse unless you are able to come down in front of anywhere it might want to go, which terrain and other units might make impossible.

[Faultie]

If it works for your gaming group, then go with what works.

My Warlord is so large I've had to put it on a base. The base is actually 12" long by 15" wide.
Pics! Pics!

Well, That's not how we play around here. Thunder Hammers cause tha' shaken, Meltas melts the stuff, ect. As Sir Biscuit put it-- what else would the Titan Hammer be for (other than a silly grenade). Ah, so it's your house rules that make the formation less-useful, via the removal of the grenade. I see. Even in normal 40k, a Thunderhammer doesn't effect a Dreadnaught beyond the basic attack, does it? Thus, why would it effect a MEGA dreadnaught? The point of the Titan Hammer formation is both the silly grenade, and the fact that, with a 3+ invulnerable save, the Termies are pretty survivable vs. a Titan. I see the Titan Hammer as a good tarpit for a Titan, and are there to intercept it (as Sotonshades mentioned).

[BuFFo]

I've always been curious why people seem intimidated by the larger titans. For instance, for the price of a single Emperor titan, a body might field 24 reasonably equipped Hammerheads, 75 blaster-equipped battlesuits, 47 power klaws on bikes, 50 double-multi-melta Land Speeders, the list goes on.

I'm asking because I've never actually played a game with anything this large, so maybe there's a practical reality that I'm not getting, and I'm curious. I understand that the really large titans can lay down an impressive amount of Destroyer firepower, but at the same time it seems like most of the time there's a price-equivalent option that would virtually guarantee their destruction several times over on all but the very largest of boards. Am I not seeing something?

lol...

You are missing out completely as to the point of Apocalypse...

You field a Titan to have FUN. Just for the fact you can field it is enough.

[Nabterayl]

You are missing out completely as to the point of Apocalypse...
Come now. You know me better than to assume that when I ask a hypothetical question about the survivability of a model I've never played with I am asking about the point of an entire system, or the point of the model as a whole.

[Tynskel]

Come now. You know me better than to assume that when I ask a hypothetical question about the survivability of a model I've never played with I am asking about the point of an entire system, or the point of the model as a whole.

Apocalypse is hilarious-- everything is supposed to die! Ka-BOOM!--- 106,000 points were in the last game I played--- 28 players!

As for Thunderhammers-- Dreadnoughts lose their ability to shoot if they are hit by thunderhammers-- that's essentially what happens to Titans if you get enough hits off.

Remember, most guns have 'primary weapon'--- giving them a 4+ save.

The Tau Titan I fought had a 4+ Invulnerable, +4 Primary Weapons and 2 Other Weapons Weapon. With the thunder hammers, to just shut that bird down, I needed 22 Thunder Hammer hits to statistically shut the titan down.
A dreadnought doesn't survive that, normally...
But a Titan can. I had engaged the Titan in Combat twice--- it charged me and Titan Stomped, and I lost a bunch (because not everyone had thunder hammers). I shut it down because I only did 1 Structure point to it, and LOTS of Shakens. I charged it the second time, and because I had the Sanguinary Priest-- tore the thing apart and it went Fa-Boom!

[Faultie]

Apocalypse is hilarious-- everything is supposed to die! Ka-BOOM!--- 106,000 points were in the last game I played--- 28 players!So true! Why a titan? Because it's enormous!
As for Thunderhammers-- Dreadnoughts lose their ability to shoot if they are hit by thunderhammers-- that's essentially what happens to Titans if you get enough hits off.Really? Maybe I'm daft, but the "Crew Stunned" only happens to "vehicles with no Initiative value". Last I checked, Dreadnaughts (and Titans) had an Initiative value, so that didn't apply to them at all. Has this been Errata'd? Is this also a house-rule you guys use? <--Note: not sarcasm, I've just always understood the Thunderhammer rule to not effect walkers/vehicles with I values.

-- tore the thing apart and it went Fa-Boom!At BoLSCon last year, I believe an exploding Macharius and Baneblade may have taken out more troops in a single turn than most of the shooting the entire rest of the game!

[DarkLink]

Maybe I'm daft, but the "Crew Stunned" only happens to "vehicles with no Initiative value". Last I checked, Dreadnaughts (and Titans) had an Initiative value, so that didn't apply to them at all. Has this been Errata'd? Is this also a house-rule you guys use? <--Note: not sarcasm, I've just always understood the Thunderhammer rule to not effect walkers/vehicles with I values.

Yeah, I caught this too not too long ago.



At BoLSCon last year, I believe an exploding Macharius and Baneblade may have taken out more troops in a single turn than most of the shooting the entire rest of the game!

We haven't had much luck with apocalypse, but one of the games that was fun, I flank marched a Brass Scorpion onto the opponent's side. Lysander jumped out the next turn and hammered it. The thing exploded in a massive fireball, killing every single model within 36" except Lysander:D.

[Tynskel]

Faultie--- that's a house rule.

It balances out the fact you cannot take Vortex Grenades-- which are needed for taking out titans.



It is important for you group to have house rules---
For example, we limited the 'bring back a unit' stratagem to non-super heavies. We changed it also to unit automatically comes back, not a 4+. We put the unit back right where it was on the board too!

Using that stratagem to bring back a Warlord Titan can ruin the game- which is how this rule is most commonly abused.


Also, there are lots of rules fudged when playing an apocalypse game--- deep strikes don't have to be in rings, just make the models fit. Let the 1" rule slide.

Overall, these changes are to make the game fun-- not to abuse people. Often the board is covered in so many models that there is physcially no way to do the rings and/or follow the 1" rule. As long as there is space (ie- I teleported my Deathknell into a rectangle area) it is okay.

[Faultie]

I see. So one of the house rules is also that all Thunderhammers effect Walkers, Dreadnaughts, and Titans, or is it only the ones in that formation? Was this strictly to make Sentinels, dreadnaughts, and titans easier to manage? To make Termis more worthwhile? To balance out that specific formation? I'm really just wondering in case we run anything similar here sooner or later.

[Tynskel]

We ran it as shaken results-

I don't have the book in front of me (I am moving soon!), but I believe the Super Heavies explicitly state that if enough weapons are shaken, then next shaken becomes a Driver Stunned.


I Ran a Blood Angels Deathknell Orbital Strike Force. The store manager banned Titanhammers completely because of no Vortex Grenades (and you are paying the 325 points for the Grenade, not for Fearless).
I had one squad of TH + SS, and 4 shooty squads (2 Assault Cannons, and 2 Hv Flamers). Sprinkle some Chainfists in there. It was the combination of all them that brought down the titan, not just the thunder hammers. The Thunder Hammers helped to reach the Driver Stunned, so thing couldn't get away. I believe I mentioned earlier that the thing had a 4+ Invulnerable and had 4 Primary Weapons (6 weapons altogether). In the first round I did a redonkulous amount of Shakens- there were only 5 Terminators with Thunder Hammers alive at that point (A Captain wielding 2, bwahahahah! and 4 TH + SS), so I was only doing ~6 Thunder Hammer Shakens (which Translates to ~1.5 Weapon Shakens).