DH/RT inconsistencies

[Madness]

I stated that DH/RT have some inconsistencies with the actual fluff, it's nothing scatter laser-size, but it's pretty widespread and I'd say that their canon is a little off.

Case in point is for instance the needle weapons, they went from elaborate las variants (the pistol being even rarer than the rifle, a la inferno pistol/meltagun) carrying extra poisonous package to syringe gun that would look silly even in the hands of an Ork Dok or Fabius Bile.

[Necrosis]

Your comparing 2nd edition stuff to dark heresy? Really, why not use some 4th edition codexs that use needle pistols like daemon hunters?

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1250149_99060108080_INQDHEversorexpistmain_873x62 7.jpg

So comparing the dark hersy to the daemon hunter it looks pretty similar.

[Melissia]

[edit: delete]

[Melissia]

Indeed it does. Furthermore, slight variations on how a weapon looks is not an inconsistency because weapons almost always vary quite a bit depending on who sculpted the model.

[Madness]

I didn't post any model for that exact reason. Plus that's not a needle pistol, that's a rare wargear that has one muzzle firing a needle pistol equivalent. Consider that the rifles are the same ones in use right now.

[Necrosis]

It still a needle pistol and the weapons look similar. The top part is the bolt pistol and the bottom is the needle pistol.
On top of that the needle pistol in dark heresy looks alot similar to the Necromanda one.
I'll take the Eversor look over some 2nd edition stuff. Also remember what was back in 2nd edition? Squats.

[Madness]

The Needle Rifle is still an abomination, and the pistol is still uglier and dumber (as far as hard sci-fi as it could be), but that's just ONE example, just examine the availability of the weapons...

Inferno pistols are as rare as a heavy bolter.

[Necrosis]

The Needle Rifle is still an abomination, and the pistol is still uglier and dumber (as far as hard sci-fi as it could be), but that's just ONE example, just examine the availability of the weapons...

Inferno pistols are as rare as a heavy bolter.

Cause their is nothing more rare then very rare. Both are at the hardest levels to get which makes sense.

[Madness]

That's no excuse to mix archeotech with common heavy weapons. Or Bolters being Rare. Come on, it's just silly.

[Necrosis]

Of course bolters are going to be rare. Their not that common but then again their not to rare such as commissars and higher ranking officers having them.
Also look at the price difference between heavy bolter and an inferno pistol. The Inferno pistol is always 4 times as expensive. Thus in that sense it is rarer. Getting a heavy bolter or an Inferno pistol is ridicously hard.
You seem to be arguing the most minor details. The fact is an Inferno pistol or a heavy bolter is as hard as hell to get and is pretty damn expensive to.

[Madness]

Yeah but they are rarer than a Meltagun!! Or the same as "ancient tech" plasmagun.Let me tell you what this is, it's game balance done wrong.

[Necrosis]

No they are not, they are just as rare which makes sense as any guard squad can get their hands on a melta. Plasma guns are also very rare. What you are pointing out doesn't really contridict the fluff that much. It's not like in some of the BL books where a power weapons is just a regular sword. All these your points can be easily countered and argued.

[Melissia]

Cause their is nothing more rare then very rare. Both are at the hardest levels to get which makes sense.

Actually, there is. See Ascension.

However, these items are often truly unique ones.

[Madness]

It's still inconsistent, a mass produced item(bolter) being as rare as a dying(plasma), or even obscure(exotic stuff) technology.

I could have understood scarce, putting the AVERAGE bolter on the same level of weird patterns of common weapons.
Then again it's not just the bolter, it's not just the fact that they altered the design of the needle rifle (which is almost always a well craftedlonglas with special projectiles)

It's not even that they came up with never heard before weapons like the hand cannon and proclaimed it to be a totally widespread item, or that they renamed the power maul into shock maul (those are things found in the only 4/5 pages I bothered to check, there's more I don't care about recalling), it's the sum of all these things and all the other things. They are inconsistencies.

[Melissia]

It's still inconsistent, a mass produced item(bolter) being as rare as a dying(plasma), or even obscure(exotic stuff) technology.
... you mean just like plasmaguns are more common in Codex: Imperial Guard than bolters, even though the former are supposed to be incredibly rare? I don't think this is a contradiction so much as them dealing with GW's own contradictory fluff the best they can.


It's not even that they came up with never heard before weapons like the hand cannon
Orly now. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Anaconda)

Hand Cannons are just particularly powerful stub pistols/revolvers, which DO exist in 40k. Keep in mind that most lore in 40k is representative of the military side of things, while the equipment in Dark Heresy is mostly the civilian side. You'd be better off looking at what gangers have, than what the Guard has.

[Freefall945]

Dark Heresy did a lot of things. I beleive they're also the first place to diverge the common bolter from the "Astartes" bolter, which is huge and better and not for you. There's no precedent for it - the space marine models hold bolters like sub machine guns, and the human models hold them like bulky, snub-nosed rifles. Presumably it was never thought necessary to make that distinction.

But it makes sense. Even though it's inconsistent with the previous silence on the issue, it's a sensible idea and most people bought it (righteously) without a second thought.

As for melta things, plasma things, heavy things... chill, basically. They're trying to cram all the cool items you see on the tabletop into the roleplaying game while retaining the idea that they are varying degrees of ancient and lost. Even bolters are supposed to be relics individually, with stories all to themselves and a certain degree of personality. When you're trying to keep a game simple enough to have these things all crammed into the categories of "scarce", "rare", and "very rare" some things are not going to please everyone, but you're the first person I've seen be bothered enough about it to argue on the internet.

[Melissia]

Dark Heresy did a lot of things. I beleive they're also the first place to diverge the common bolter from the "Astartes" bolter, which is huge and better and not for you. There's no precedent for it - the space marine models hold bolters like sub machine guns, and the human models hold them like bulky, snub-nosed rifles. Presumably it was never thought necessary to make that distinction.
Actually it wasn't the first. Even if (and I doubt this) it wasn't mentioned before third edition, Codex: Witch Hunters at least mentions that the Sisters use their own pattern of Boltguns, the Godwyn-De'az pattern.

[Madness]

There's a gun pattern every 3 guns, so there's really no difference, the difference used to be HOW the marines used bolters as opposed to the type of said bolter.

Also consider that DH/RT don't represent the average shmuck, but some sort of heroic persona, and to an acolyte (Inquisitor in training) finding a simple bolter shouldn't be on the same level that finding some weird archeotech thing.

Again, it's a combination of things, like 'Slaught being misspelt (no apostrophe). like Sisters being thrown in in the lamest way ever... DH/RT is a nice setting, and has a decent 40k feel to it, but it's more like expanded/slightly variated canon.

[Necrosis]

There's a gun pattern every 3 guns, so there's really no difference, the difference used to be HOW the marines used bolters as opposed to the type of said bolter.

Also consider that DH/RT don't represent the average shmuck, but some sort of heroic persona, and to an acolyte (Inquisitor in training) finding a simple bolter shouldn't be on the same level that finding some weird archeotech thing.

Again, it's a combination of things, like 'Slaught being misspelt (no apostrophe). like Sisters being thrown in in the lamest way ever... DH/RT is a nice setting, and has a decent 40k feel to it, but it's more like expanded/slightly variated canon.

Well I'm going to have to disagree with you. You can keep pointing out mistakes and I will keep arguing each of your statements.

I also thought sisters were well done. I'm mean sure they don't get power armour and bolters but when you served the Inquisition you usually don't wear power armour cause its going to reveal you. The Inquisition is about keeping a low profile. Also your complaining about a spelling mistake. GW makes ton of them. Hell look at the quick reference at the back of the 40k rule book. Wave Serpents Front Armour is 2 not 12.

[Melissia]

How, exactly, are Sisters done poorly?

I thought the Inquisitor's Handbook handled Sisters with more care than C:WH did (not that this is a high bar to hurdle). Mind you, it had to be FAQed because they did mess up the rank chart, but then I always check for FAQs with GW products anyway so that's no big deal.

[Kahoolin]

Bolters being Rare. Come on, it's just silly.Bolters aren't just a weapon in the Imperium, they are a holy weapon. They have strong religious significance outside their use as a weapon, which is why they are mostly in the hands of sororitas and astartes. And any guard officer, commissar whatever who has one is going to be treating it like a holy relic, not just a gun. All tech has religious significance in the Imperium, but bolt weapons especially. That's why they're rare.

[Freefall945]

Actually it wasn't the first. Even if (and I doubt this) it wasn't mentioned before third edition, Codex: Witch Hunters at least mentions that the Sisters use their own pattern of Boltguns, the Godwyn-De'az pattern.

Well, yes, but that's a different pattern. They talk about lots of different patterns of bolters in scattered sources but they're all assumed to be from the same family of weapons. It was intended to, and indeed succeeded in, conjuring up the idea of variation being restricted in the manner that, for example, the M16 assault rifle has variants, and that was fine.

Dark Heresy addressed this by declaring, for the first time, that Astartes bolters are an entirely different kind of weapon, so large and powerful that they are simply not offered as credible weapons for people. They're submachine (rocket launcher) guns for supermen.

The Godwyn-De'az, like most boltguns, are submachine (rocket launcher) guns for normally sized people. This was never the case in 40k. Sister's bolters and Astartes bolters have the same damage profile on the tabletop even though through the lens of Dark Heresy rules they should certainly not.

[Melissia]

The Godwyn-De'az, like most boltguns, are submachine (rocket launcher) guns for normally sized people in power armor.

Fixed. Also, the Sororitas boltgun actually look smore like a carbine than an SMG.

Furthermore, SISTERS ARE NOT EIGHT FOOT PLUS MUSCLEBOUND MONSTROSITIES.

Think about that, and the fact that the relative scale of the boltguns on both miniatures. Marines have three feet on Sisters, and yet their boltguns look relatively the same size.on them as the Sororitas boltguns look on the Sororitas. It's quite obvious that an Astartes boltgun would be pretty large if the models were actually to scale.

[AirHorse]

Yeah astartes bolters are supposed to be huge, way too big for a non-augmented human to wield properly. I like the artwork on the cover of the blood angels omnibus, the bolt pistol is massive, like I would have imagined an astartes weapon to be :)

[Freefall945]

Fixed. Also, the Sororitas boltgun actually look smore like a carbine than an SMG.

Furthermore, SISTERS ARE NOT EIGHT FOOT PLUS MUSCLEBOUND MONSTROSITIES.

Think about that, and the fact that the relative scale of the boltguns on both miniatures. Marines have three feet on Sisters, and yet their boltguns look relatively the same size.on them as the Sororitas boltguns look on the Sororitas. It's quite obvious that an Astartes boltgun would be pretty large if the models were actually to scale.

Do you suggest the "GD" pattern is only usable by sisters in power armor? So if, like, if the convent was attacked by surprise and a few noble sisters deigned to hold off the invaders in their pajamas while everyone else prepared to drive them out, they'd burst into the corridor and try to bring their bolters to bear...

"It's no good!" Sister Moriah cried out as the xenos tore down the sacred corridor, their every clattering footstep an affront to to Emperor. "Without my power armor and the strength granted by it, I am unable to effectively heft my weapon!"

I'm overstating it, naturally. They'd be less proficient with it out of power armor because being stronger is good for holding heavy things, but I have significant doubt that the GD pattern is significantly bulkier than the imperial guard or civilian designs.

And you're right, it makes sense, when you think about it, that Astartes bolters should be humongous like they are. That was, in fact, the very substance of my initial post in this thread, and the soul of the point I was making. It makes sense, but no one ever officially addressed it before.

Remember "Inquisitor"? That flawed, but endearing attempt at a table-top RPG Games Workshop cranked out with, at that time, some of the most detailed canon relating to gear? There was one bolter in the model line, and it was endlessly used for conversion. It was Artemis, the deathwatch marine's bolter, one handed in a cavalier fashion as he barreled forward like an unstoppable slab of genetically altered superman. Lots of conversions, ones pictured in white dwarves and those you'd just see on your game table at the store, used that bolter. Regular humans used the huge gun more carefully. They had to! It was huge!

Similarly, there was only one damage profile given for bolters (much like all bolters do the same damage in 40k). An inquisitor with his bolter does the same damage as Artemis. Never once did I hear anyone snicker and say "Of course, Astartes bolters are too big and powerful for regular humans to use. That inquisitor is obviously using a civilian pattern".

It didn't seem necessary to make that distinction. So no one did. We just assumed everyone used the same bolters with their own, modified handgrips and triggers.

Dark Heresy decided it wanted to address that xenophant in the skull-encrusted room and took the stand that Astartes use entirely different weapons, as far removed from the typical bolter as the Spitfire is from an F-111.

And when someone looks at it, even for just a second, that makes sense, and we nod and accept it, even though we didn't feel it was necessary to do before. It's something that Dark Heresy did on its own, but it's a sensible idea and we can pretty much get behind it.

[Melissia]

No, I'm suggesting that it's a bit too heavy with a bit too much recoil for most people. A trained soldier could use it, but it'd probably leave them sore, and possibly injured. Astartes bolters are even more powerful.

By the way, a REPLICA of a Sisters bolter in Dark Heresy: Inquisitor's Handbook requires a strength -20 check to fire accurately, IIRC. Might be +20 though.

[Freefall945]

No, I'm suggesting that it's a bit too heavy with a bit too much recoil for most people. A trained soldier could use it, but it'd probably leave them sore, and possibly injured. Astartes bolters are even more powerful.

...Injured by firing the bolter? Well, I suppose I disagree with that - but I disagree -less- than we typically disagree on things, so I guess we'll call that a resolution.

EDIT: Interesting. What page?

EDIT EDIT: Ah, there it is. If one has less than a Str Bonus of 4, there's a -10 to BS tests. Fair enough, it's a chunky pistol. I'm willing to concede that the Godwyn-De'az is probably at the "beefy" end of standard human bolter spectrum, but I maintain that there was never any significant "Regular people Bolter/Astartes Bolter" divide before Dark Heresy.

[eldargal]

I've injured myself (not badly) firing some high recoil gun (I forget what it was) and one of my brothers dislocated his shoulder firing some kind of gun when we was doing special forces training.


...Injured by firing the bolter? Well, I suppose I disagree with that - but I disagree -less- than we typically disagree on things, so I guess we'll call that a resolution.

EDIT: Interesting. What page?

[Madness]

Bolters shouldn't have that much of a recoil btw, the bullets are self propelled once they are out of the nozzle. A normal autogun should have much more recoil even with a much smaller calibre.

Considerations about different boltgun patterns are totally out of thin air, whereas there are mentions of different patterns and they are probably slightly different in their performance, there's no solid indication of which that might be. Even in detailed games like inquisitor and necromunda. So, saying that the sister's version is more a carbine than an smg is just as true as saying the exact opposite. In fact, I'm gonna say it and see if you can prove me wrong.

And yes, bolters are sacred and sh*t, but so are lasguns, or sticks with nails in them, still doesn't account how a normal bolter is rarer than the virtually unheard of webber. (emphasis on virtual)

Again, it's simply game balance done wrong.

[Freefall945]

And yes, bolters are sacred and sh*t, but so are lasguns, or sticks with nails in them, still doesn't account how a normal bolter is rarer than the virtually unheard of webber. (emphasis on virtual)

Well, no, bolters are more sacred than lasguns considerably. They all have machine spirits which must be appeased during maintenance and reloading and so on, but Bolters are the Emperor's weapon. They're what he decided to arm his angels of death with. Spent bolt casings, particularly from important battle grounds, are commonly traded (and counterfeited) relics.

But just to turn the table back on you, why is a previous envisionment of the role of the webber as virtually unheard of versus a bolter being rather common hold more water that the reverse? Because it came first? What it comes down to are two things.

1. Does this kind of minor inconsistancy bother you?

2. Do you think the newer idea makes sense in the context it is presented in?

If your answer is yes to the first, then you'll never be satisfied with a Games Workshop product. Revisions, minor and major, are a part of it. If your answer is no to the second, then you have something a little stronger to complain about. I wouldn't say that emphasizing the rareness of the bolter is destructive to the setting, unflavored or nonsensical.

Stop pickin' at it, bro. :)

[Madness]

The inconsistencies do tick me off a little, but it appears that dh/rt is internally consistent, it just stops being so when compared to the overall 40k universe.

Which is not a crime punishable by death, I'm just pointing it out since some people was outraged when I said that DH/RT could have had a better control over the IP than it had.

The conflicts doesn't disrupt too much, but to think that the average Hive Primus ganger can gets his hand on a bolter with little trouble and to think that in DH it's harder to find than exotic stuff, seems to be quite silly to me.

Also, I dare you to try and find a lasgun shell, how's THAT for rare relic? :P

[Melissia]

As opposed to lasguns whose lasbolts supposedly knock people back?

Yes, that's part of Blcak Library's fluff. How a lasgun works varies WIDELY between authors.

[Old_Paladin]

Bolters shouldn't have that much of a recoil btw, the bullets are self propelled once they are out of the nozzle. A normal autogun should have much more recoil even with a much smaller calibre.

I take it you've never seen an rpg/recoilless rifle being fired then?
We're still talking about a 19mm projectile, that a pretty large and heavy round. Even with a two-stage rocket as part of it, it still has to fire out at least several yards in a perfect ballistic path (there cannot be any arch or 'lob' as that would make the weapon totally inacturate when the second booster kicks in).

Another way to look at it is recoil force of other weapons. A 40kg autocannon, firing 20mm shells has a recoil force of 400kg (with muzzle break). Or, ten times its weight it recoil.
A bolt weapon probably uses half the needed propellent (or half muzzle velocity), and say it has an effective muzzle break; so it probably only causes 4-5 times a bolters weight in recoil force.

I don't have any books with me to know how heavy a Bolter is; but I'm guessing that it's heavy enough the even only four times its weight in recoil force is still going to be pretty hefty.

[Melissia]

DH lists a "standard" Imperial boltgun as 7kg, which is 15.4 pounds.

The Angelus Bolt Carbine, designed to fire Astartes bolter shells (Which are larger, higher quality, and completely illegal for non-Astartes to own) weighs 11 kg.

The "Scourge" Boltgun, a civilian replica of the Godwyn De'az, weighs 10 kg, although I don't think it is a true Godwyn De'az pattern.

[Old_Paladin]

DH lists a "standard" Imperial boltgun as 7kg, which is 15.4 pounds.

The Angelus Bolt Carbine, designed to fire Astartes bolter shells (Which are larger, higher quality, and completely illegal for non-Astartes to own) weighs 11 kg.

The "Scourge" Boltgun, a civilian replica of the Godwyn De'az, weighs 10 kg, although I don't think it is a true Godwyn De'az pattern.

Thanks Mel.
Well, then its easy to add in weight and get recoil force.

Even with an ultra-conservitive level of recoil at only 3 times weight:
That means force is from 45 lbs to over 70 lbs. That a lot of recoil weight. I'd say a person could be hurt pretty badly is not significantly trained in its use and properly braced.
At the higher end of the scale, you could be looking at 120 lbs. [at five times weight] of recoil into your body (if you tried to fire it onehanded you'd break your arm).

If we look at an example with an M4 (using the same scale; which is flawed in this ratio), it would have a recoil of:
21-35 lbs. at the 3-5 times weight scale. 70 lbs of recoil only if it reached 10 times its weight in recoil.
That's still a pretty substantial difference; between firing a 35 pound recoil from a rifle (on the higher end of the recoil scale) and a 45 pound recoil from a boltgun (using the lightest version on the lowest end of the scale).


Of course, an M4 only fires rounds needing to project a 4 gram slug; a bolter needs to launch 100 gram bolts (if a bolt is similar to a 20x102mm anti-material round).
Everything is a matter of proportions and scale. An M4 doesn't have such a high recoil factor, because the force needed to project a 4 gram slug is going to be much less then what is needed to project a shell that is nearly twenty-times it's size.

[Nabterayl]

This is neither here nor there, but I disagree that the Scourge is a "civilian" weapon. Data is, as always, inconclusive :p


Thanks Mel.
Well, then its easy to add in weight and get recoil force.
OP, out of curiosity, what exactly are you using as your formula?


Of course, an M4 only fires rounds needing to project a 4 gram slug; a bolter needs to launch 100 gram bolts (if a bolt is similar to a 20x102mm anti-material round).
I doubt that it is, actually. Four inches seems like a really long bolt to me. I mean, remember that a bolter's effective range is no greater than that of a combat rifle. A 20x102mm has a much longer range than that.

[Melissia]

The Scourge is as much a "civilian" weapon as any kind of bolter is.


Also, if they were being realistic, the Boltgun would have an insane maximum range.

[Old_Paladin]

OP, out of curiosity, what exactly are you using as your formula?

Wiki and some faux-math.
The Rheinmetal Mk. 20 Rh 202: is a 75 kg autocannon, with recoil force of 550-770 kg (7-10 times weight).
The Hispano-Suiza HS.404: is a 43 kg autocannon, with recoil force of 400 kg (over 9 times weight).

Those are the 20mm autocannons I could find that have any recoil data; and based on 2 examples, they seem to have a recoil of several magnitudes their actual weapons weight. A bolt weapon is going to have a fraction of the charge, and thus a fraction of the force multiplier. But a third of the kick of a weapon like that is still a hefty kick.

A bolt weapon doesn't need to fire at the same distance or velocity; but they're still 20mm weapons. The bolt has very segnificant weight and would require a fairly large charge to even fire (even if it has a secondary booster for actual travel; in fact, that just makes the bolt larger and would mean the initial launch charge needs to propel extra weight).

[Nabterayl]

Wiki and some faux-math.
The Rheinmetal Mk. 20 Rh 202: is a 75 kg autocannon, with recoil force of 550-770 kg (7-10 times weight).
The Hispano-Suiza HS.404: is a 43 kg autocannon, with recoil force of 400 kg (over 9 times weight).

Those are the 20mm autocannons I could find that have any recoil data; and based on 2 examples, they seem to have a recoil of several magnitudes their actual weapons weight. A bolt weapon is going to have a fraction of the charge, and thus a fraction of the force multiplier. But a third of the kick of a weapon like that is still a hefty kick.

A bolt weapon doesn't need to fire at the same distance or velocity; but they're still 20mm weapons. The bolt has very segnificant weight and would require a fairly large charge to even fire (even if it has a secondary booster for actual travel; in fact, that just makes the bolt larger and would mean the initial launch charge needs to propel extra weight).
Ah, the ancient frustration of bolt fluff ... :rolleyes:

Just as an exercise, here's a way to spin those numbers in a way that results in fairly manageable bolt recoil:

The Mk. 20 Rh 202 has an effective range of about 2,000 meters. Let's assume that our bolter has an effective range of 500 meters (Dark Heresy twice gives 270 meters, but I find that incredible, so I'm willing to double that to the effective range of an M-4), and thus requires 1/4 the total impetus. Now let's assume that the actual propellant energy can be equally split between the rocket fuel and the powder charge (since we are lacking any data on the efficiency of a bolt's rocket fuel), and that the bolt only needs to travel for 10 meters before its rocket kicks in and takes over, so the shooter only feels 1/50th of the total impetus. We've now cut down to ~2.75-3.85 kg of recoil force on a weapon that weighs at least 7.0 kg (if you look at the rules for ammo in Dark Heresy it seems like they actually list unloaded weights, but let's use 7.0 kg because the weight of a bolter probably changes substantially as its clip empties, and an unloaded weight will give us the greatest felt recoil). That's a recoil force of roughly 0.5 times weight.

Just an exercise, of course; you could spin the numbers to get almost whatever result you want. But I think a reasonable case can be made that bolters have basically no recoil (and correct me if I'm wrong but do we have any good sources stating that anything other than bolt pistols have ferocious recoil?).

[Melissia]

Actually not all bolt pistols have such recoil. It's basically only certain kinds, IE, kinds that use more powerful/larger ammunition.

Common civilian bolt pistols have less recoil than a hand cannon (IE, a large caliber magnum revolver).

[Freefall945]

Indeed. The Sacristan Bolt pistol, the one with the strength based penalty we mentioned earlier, is specifically mentioned to be a Godwyn-De'az inspired design, which seems to be why it gets such kick.

The Scourge Boltgun however, the weapon the book lists as "Favoured by the warrior-sisters of the Order of the Ebon Chalice... on Iocanthus" does not have such special recoil rules.

One could guess that either the Scourge is a GD implementation itself, but it seems more likely that this order just uses them instead (perhaps they enjoy the mono-axe bayonet) and that the regular GD boltgun kicks like a mule.

[Nabterayl]

The fact that it's a full 7 ounces lighter than a standard bolt pistol probably doesn't help either, of course. Looking at the stats it seems that the Sacristan uses larger ammunition and is extra light, which is the standard recipe for a high-recoil handgun.

Which raises an interesting question about the Godwyn De'az bolter ... does it too use extra-large ammunition? Is it too an extra-light model? And does the Order of the Ebon Chalice perhaps prefer the Scourge precisely because it is heavier and lower-caliber and thus has less felt recoil, trading killing power for accuracy (and perhaps magazine capacity)? I'd never noticed these threads before; thanks.

[Freefall945]

Well, the cover of the Inquisitor's Handbook sports an image of a battle sister in full power armour and toting a bolter which houses a magazine full of shells the size of a baby's arm...

But I don't think I need to tell anyone here about what a bad idea it is to draw lore from cover art!

[Melissia]

The fact that it's a full 7 ounces lighter than a standard bolt pistol probably doesn't help either, of course. Looking at the stats it seems that the Sacristan uses larger ammunition and is extra light, which is the standard recipe for a high-recoil handgun.

Which raises an interesting question about the Godwyn De'az bolter ... does it too use extra-large ammunition? Is it too an extra-light model? And does the Order of the Ebon Chalice perhaps prefer the Scourge precisely because it is heavier and lower-caliber and thus has less felt recoil, trading killing power for accuracy (and perhaps magazine capacity)? I'd never noticed these threads before; thanks.
The ones on Iocanthos probably prefer it because it's locally manufactured and therefor easier to replace/easier to get ammunition for.

[Old_Paladin]

Where else are we to gain at least part of the lore from; nearly every piece of art shows bolters to be a large, heavy and more importantly impressive and terrifying weapons.
Most of the stories from Black Library from a Marines point of view discribes a heavy kick from their bolters. A tale from a dreadnaughts point of view even talks about his feelings of loss, that he'll never feel the joy of the bolters kick and his armour absorbing the recoil, the sensations of battle in the name of the Emperor, now that he is entombed.

We don't really need faux math (but some people respond better if they see numbers being crunched), the fluff says bolters have a kick. A marine sized bolter kicks hard enough to break a normal mans ribs. While guard sized bolters are going to have a recoil similar to an autorifle.

I actually see boltguns as being similar to the AA-12 (which can also fire several types of 12-guage, fin-stabalized grenades). That system has complex triple-redundant recoil absorbent mechanics, yet still has a recoil. A bolter itself actually seems like a very basic design; the bolts are where is seems most of the technology has be directed towards.


And Nab, the flipside of your question is "is there any reliable fluff that states outright that bolt weapons have perfect recoil compensation?"
And if they have zero recoil, why don't we see or hear more about people using full-sized bolters akimbo... (coming soon to a theater near you... John Woo's Warhammer 40K)?

[Freefall945]

(coming soon to a theater near you... John Woo's Warhammer 40K)?

A pair of ultramarines dive past each other, turning to blaze past the camera with two bolters each. A shaft of light erupts between them, around which spirals a column of bare-skulled, heavilly augmented psyber-doves.

[Nabterayl]

We don't really need faux math (but some people respond better if they see numbers being crunched), the fluff says bolters have a kick. A marine sized bolter kicks hard enough to break a normal mans ribs.
It does?


While guard sized bolters are going to have a recoil similar to an autorifle.
That's about what I'd conjecture, yeah.


And Nab, the flipside of your question is "is there any reliable fluff that states outright that bolt weapons have perfect recoil compensation?"
And if they have zero recoil, why don't we see or hear more about people using full-sized bolters akimbo... (coming soon to a theater near you... John Woo's Warhammer 40K)?
No, though I admit I haven't read much Black Library marine fiction. As for why we don't see more people using full-sized bolters akimbo, I always figured it's for the same reason you don't see more people using full-sized bolters period. Even if the Mechanicus made them available in sufficient numbers to be general issue (assuming they could), it just doesn't necessarily seem like a good idea. Even assuming lightweight Dark Heresy boltguns, and assuming that a bolt for such a weapon weighs about 50g (call it half a 20x102) with a 500g empty magazine, a standard trooper's ammunition loadout gives you 120 rounds, for which you are lugging around 15.5 kg of kit - and your loaded weapon clocks in at 8.7 kg, which is not exactly wieldy even if it had no recoil whatever. The same loadout in las gets you 300 rounds, for which you are lugging around perhaps 6.5 kg of kit, and your loaded weapon comes in at about 4.5 kg.

Simply put, I'm not convinced that the boltgun is a practical weapon to fight protracted actions with, let alone whole wars. Aside from the punishing weight of the weapon itself, the ammunition is really heavy for what you get. Even with double loads you're lugging the next best thing to 53 pounds of nothing but ammo and gun - for a mere 240 rounds. It's one thing to give a weapon with that kind of limited endurance to a space marine (actually, a standard space marine load is only 100 rounds), who trains with his weapon for multiple hours each and every day and who is only expected to perform a single, limited mission before being evacced in his fancy Thunderhawk taxi to reload and rearm. It's quite another to give it to a guardsman, who does not have an express shuttle back to stores whenever he wants it and who can't train for multiple hours every day with his weapon because he has to do things like sleep, and live on the front line.

[Melissia]

Indeed, that's one of the reasons why Seraphim are so special with their ability.

[Old_Paladin]

Actually, instead of saying seeing bolters akimbo more, I should have said ever. I've never seen it said at all.

I'm not saying frontline infantry should be trained that way. But you'd think at least a few cocky Inquisitors or their henchmen would do it.

There's a real cool picture in the Inquisitor tabletop game (from the specialist system), that shows a guy in a trenchcoat jumping between two roof tops, full-auto firing an autogun at guys behind him and pointing a lasgun in front of him (using full sized rifles akimbo).
It's a great action scene and one that doesn't defy suspention of disbelief.
I don't think it would have the same affect if it was two bolters; people wouldn't buy into the image (I wouldn't). You'd wonder how he could hold them both and wouldn't shooting one while jumping throw off the jump (at best).

[Nabterayl]

Well, I mean, each weapon would weigh 20 pounds, so yeah, I wouldn't buy it either. Forget the recoil issue; I don't buy acrobatics with each wrist supporting a 20-pound weapon whose center of gravity is forward of the fist.

[Melissia]

Also, there were rumors of a Sisters model that dual-wielded storm bolters.

[Freefall945]

I certainly used bolters one handed in the Inquisitor tabletop game. A space marine had, infact, no drawback to doing so. The ol' super-strong bionic arm plus bolter was a favorite of many an inquisitor.