PDA

View Full Version : CSM Minor Changes



Herald of Nurgle
05-28-2010, 04:49 PM
A small scale set of changes across the CSM list.

Errata
Marks of Chaos
Icons: Please note that it is the unit itself which gets the upgrade. Killing the Iconbearer no longer means the unit loses the benefit. Icons are now used just for summoning/Deep Striking.
Chaos Undivided/Chaos Glory: Makes the unit Stubborn and gives the Counter Attack special rule. Please note that the Icon cost is now 20pts.
Slaanesh: Gives the unit +1 I and the Acute Senses special rule. Becomes 25pt Icon.
Nurgle: Gives the unit +1 T and immunity to Nurgle's Rot. Remains 50pts.
Tzeentch: Gives the unit a 4+ Invulnerable Save or +1 to an existing Invulnerable if it were already better. Becomes a 50pt Icon.
Khorne: Gives the unit +1 A. Remains 40pts.
Psychic Powers
Nurgle's Rot: Should be 'all models within 7" without a Mark of Nurgle'. For the purposes of using this power, the model becomes a Psyker. May be purchased by Chaos Lord of Nurgle for +35pts.
Lash of Submission: Changed to 'unit makes Leadership Check on Ld-5. Subtract from 12 for movement. If movement is higher than Leadership, the unit Goes to Ground'. Becomes 30pt power.
Bolt of Change: Changed to '24" Range, Strength 9, AP 1, Assault 1, Lance'. Cost reduced to 20pts on models which could already take it. May be purchased by Chaos Lord of Tzeentch for +30pts.
Doombolt: Changed to '24" Range, Strength 4, AP 3, Assault d3+1' Cost becomes 20pts.
Gift of Chaos: May be used on Upgrade Characters (e.g. Wolf Guard) as well as Monstrous Creatures. 30pts still.
Wind of Chaos: Changed to 'On a 4+, the model under the template takes a wound or glancing hit with no armour or cover saves allowed. On a 6, the model under the template takes a wound or penetrating hit with no saves allowed'. Cost remains at 30pts.
Warptime: User may also re-roll failed Saves, including No Retreat! Cost becomes 30pts.
Army List
Army Wide Change: All CSM gain the Acute Senses special rules for no additional cost.
Abaddon the Despoiler: May take Chaos Terminators or Chaos Chosen as Troop Choices. Gains the 'Orbital Bombardment' rule from C: SM.
Typhus the Traveller: May take a single unit of Chaos Terminators, which must have a Mark of Nurgle, as a Troop Choice. Gains the 'Orbital Bombardment' rule from C: SM.
Lucius the Eternal: May take a single unit of Chosen, which must have a Mark of Slaanesh, as a Troop Choice. Always hits on a 3+ against opponents with the same WS, or on a 4+ against any other WS.
Ahriman: May re-roll up to 1 failed Psychic Test per game turn. A single unit of Thousand Sons may be composed entirely out of Aspiring Sorcerers - this unit becomes Elites.
Fabius Bile: Any Aspiring Champion in an army containing Fabius Bile may upgrade their Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, or Close Combat Weapon to a Narthecium (from C: SM) for +25pts.
Huron Blackheart: Marks other than Chaos Glory cost +5pts in an army including Huron Blackheart. Marks of Chaos Glory cost 5pts less in an army including Huron Blackheart. Any unit may be upgraded to Outflank for +30pts.
Daemon Prince: Becomes 120pts. Marks come at no additional cost. Daemon Prince may pay 30pts to become a Psyker, counting their Close Combat Weapon as a Force Weapon instead and gaining access to Psychic Powers.
Chaos Lieutenant: Identical to Chaos Lord, but 70pts with WS 5, W 2, and no Fearless special rule. May take a single unit of Chosen as a Troop Choice.
Chaos Lord: May take a single unit of Chosen as a Troop Choice. Chaos Lords of Khorne or Slaanesh may purchase the Fleet special rule for +15pts.
Chaos Sorcerer: Becomes 90pts. May take a single unit of Possessed or Chaos Spawn as a Troop Choice. Must purchase at least 1 Psychic Power. May be upgraded to Sorcerer Lord for +25pts, gaining +1 WS and the Fearless special rule.
CSM: May replace their Power Armour with the Scouts, Move Through Cover special rules and a 4+ Armour Save for no additional cost.
Cult Troops (e.g. Khorne Berserkers): All Champions increases to 20pt upgrade, but the unit gains a benefit by their use, as noted below. Aspiring Sorcerers become a 45pt upgrade, and up to 1 per 5 Sons after the first may be upgraded to one.
Skull Champion: Gives the unit he is with a 6+d3 Charge Range and the Move Through Cover special rule when charging.
Plague Champion: May be upgraded with Nurgle's Rot for +25pts. All Attacks become Poisoned (5+) for +3pts. Power Weapons cost 17pts, Power Fists cost 27pts.
Noise Champion: Becomes WS 5. The Noise Champion has a free Sonic Blaster which may be replaced with Blastmaster for 30pts.
Possessed CSM: Become 24pts per model. May become 'Summoned' (as in Lesser Daemons) for +5pts per model. Units with the Icon of Chaos Glory may re-roll their Daemonkin result, but the icon costs +5pts in Possessed units.
Chosen CSM: Become Stubborn. Any may become an Aspiring Champion for +5pts. May take a Land Raider as Dedicated Transport.
Chaos Terminators: Become 37pts per model, but come with a free Mark of Chaos. Any may take a Personal Icon for +5pts.
Chaos Raptors: Gain the Fleet special rule. No point change. May remove Jump Packs across whole unit to purchase a Rhino (free) or a Land Raider (at 200pts) for specified point costs. Aspiring Champion is WS 5.
Chaos Bikers: Gain Hit and Run as well as Fleet special rule. Become 32pts per model.
Chaos Spawn: Gain 4+ Armour Save, and the Move Through Cover special rule.
Chaos Tanks (exc Rhino, Defiler): All have Extra Armour for +5pts per tank. This is STANDARD.
Defiler: May take Chaos Marks for +30pts - Khorne gain +2A, Slaanesh gain +1 I and may re-roll failed Dangerous Terrain tests, Tzeentch may re-roll the Scatter dice on their Battle Cannons, and Nurgle gain +1 on all AV Facings excluding Rear.

Melissia
05-28-2010, 05:48 PM
Nurgle's Rot: It IS a psychic power, therefor it should count as one.

Lash of Submission: Meh, I'd have to playtest.

Bolt of Change: So... why? I guess it is a bit overpriced, but I'm not sure it's THAT much so.

Doombolt: Again, why? I can see one could argue Bolt of Change is overpriced for what it does, but Doombolt is most assuredly NOT.

Gift of Chaos: Meh, I'd have to playtest.

Wind of Chaos: I don't like having special rules which effect units within transports.

Warptime: So it's only saves? I think that's acceptable, though dunno why you'd change it.


Army Wide Change: No, also no, also F*** NO. Just... why? CSMs are already one of the better troops choices in 40k tabletop, it costs less for ten CSMs than ten Loyalists and yet they have CCWs and far more upgrade options as well.

Daemon Prince: How exactly do you plan on balancing out the marks then?

Chaos Lord: I don't see why he needs a price reduction? And I can see what you're going with, but just put Chosen. Terminators don't really need to be troops except in specialized armies...

Chaos Sorcerer: I don't see why he needs a price reduction? I can see the possessed/spawn thing.

CSM: I can see this, but only IF you drop the army wide changes bit.

Skull Champion: I guess it could work, with the increase, but I'd think move through cover alone would be good enough-- it's not like the unit is that weak.

Plague Champion: No on nurgles rot with your changes to it. Also, power weapons on Marines should be 15, not 10... Guard get them for 10, because they don't have MEQ (And really they should get them for five).

Noise Champion: I guess it could work.

Possessed CSM: I guess it could work, but I'd rather say that they get to pick their benefit before the game starts...

Chosen CSM: Stubborn makes sense, but I'm dubious about Scouts on a mere eighteen point model.

Chaos Terminators: Same question as above about Marks. IF they're free, why bother getting the mark of slaanesh or chaos undivided? Etc.

Chaos Raptors: I don't see the need for Hit and Run, they've never been described as disciplined enough for that to me. Fleet kinda makes sense, but that's a lot of movement on an already high movement unit...

Chaos Bikers: So not only are they cheaper than SM bikers, they're also just plain better with loads of special rules and crap? No way.

Chaos Spawn: Why are you giving everything Scouts, and why do Spawn of all units need it?

Chaos Tanks (exc Rhino, Defiler): Why?

Defiler: Ech, this is just a broken idea...



All in all, I'd never, ever agree to playing against this. The army is already very strong; not perfect, there are certainly units that need to be buffed, but you go way over the top with the buffs, and some very questionable ones as well. Trying to claim that these are just MINOR changes is like trying to say that WWII was a bit of a skirmish.

Necrosis
05-28-2010, 10:36 PM
Is Melissia the only person brave enough to talk? Come on people.

But I do agree with Melissia, chaos is a powerful army, lots of the units here don't really need a buff. I understand chaos spawns and possessed but other guys don't really need it.

Herald of Nurgle
05-29-2010, 03:51 AM
Nurgle's Rot: It IS a psychic power, therefor it should count as one.

Lash of Submission: Meh, I'd have to playtest.

Bolt of Change: So... why? I guess it is a bit overpriced, but I'm not sure it's THAT much so.

Doombolt: Again, why? I can see one could argue Bolt of Change is overpriced for what it does, but Doombolt is most assuredly NOT.

Gift of Chaos: Meh, I'd have to playtest.

Wind of Chaos: I don't like having special rules which effect units within transports.

Warptime: So it's only saves? I think that's acceptable, though dunno why you'd change it.


Army Wide Change: No, also no, also F*** NO. Just... why? CSMs are already one of the better troops choices in 40k tabletop, it costs less for ten CSMs than ten Loyalists and yet they have CCWs and far more upgrade options as well.

Daemon Prince: How exactly do you plan on balancing out the marks then?

Chaos Lord: I don't see why he needs a price reduction? And I can see what you're going with, but just put Chosen. Terminators don't really need to be troops except in specialized armies...

Chaos Sorcerer: I don't see why he needs a price reduction? I can see the possessed/spawn thing.

CSM: I can see this, but only IF you drop the army wide changes bit.

Skull Champion: I guess it could work, with the increase, but I'd think move through cover alone would be good enough-- it's not like the unit is that weak.

Plague Champion: No on nurgles rot with your changes to it. Also, power weapons on Marines should be 15, not 10... Guard get them for 10, because they don't have MEQ (And really they should get them for five).

Noise Champion: I guess it could work.

Possessed CSM: I guess it could work, but I'd rather say that they get to pick their benefit before the game starts...

Chosen CSM: Stubborn makes sense, but I'm dubious about Scouts on a mere eighteen point model.

Chaos Terminators: Same question as above about Marks. IF they're free, why bother getting the mark of slaanesh or chaos undivided? Etc.

Chaos Raptors: I don't see the need for Hit and Run, they've never been described as disciplined enough for that to me. Fleet kinda makes sense, but that's a lot of movement on an already high movement unit...

Chaos Bikers: So not only are they cheaper than SM bikers, they're also just plain better with loads of special rules and crap? No way.

Chaos Spawn: Why are you giving everything Scouts, and why do Spawn of all units need it?

Chaos Tanks (exc Rhino, Defiler): Why?

Defiler: Ech, this is just a broken idea...



All in all, I'd never, ever agree to playing against this. The army is already very strong; not perfect, there are certainly units that need to be buffed, but you go way over the top with the buffs, and some very questionable ones as well. Trying to claim that these are just MINOR changes is like trying to say that WWII was a bit of a skirmish.
Cheers for the C&C. Always appreciate it from such a widely respected and well known person on the Lounge.

I've altered a number of things and also changed the benefits of each mark. Do the new Marks seem balanced to you? I've also added a few changed to Special Characters.

Nurgle's Rot: Changed range, but also chosen to make the model a Psyker for the purposes of using it. 35pts instead of 20 for Lord.
Lash: Changed it to 30pts as well.
Bolt of Change: Reduced cost on people who could already use it, but increased it for Chaos Lords of Tzeentch.
Doombolt: Reduced Str back to 4, and increased(?) cost to 20pts.
Wind of Chaos: Removed the affecting units in transports bit. Still 30pts.
Warptime: To clarify - it's the current effect AND re-rolling saves. Increased cost to 30pts.

Army Wide: Changed it to JUST Acute Senses. I think it's fair enough - Tank Hunters across the army felt too much like Iron Warriors to me anyway :P
Daemon Prince: Increased cost even further. Need to pay to become a Psyker but gain Force Weapon for doing so.
Chaos Lord: Whoops. Didn't intend on changing price, actually - was supposed to add Lieutenant option like previous book. You fine with the other change - purchasing Fleet? The idea was that there were a few more ways to flesh out a Lord - Nurgle ones being buzzing pools of bile and Rot, Tzeentch controlling the elements even as a Chaos Lord, and so on.
Chaos Sorcerer: I reduced the cost for one thing - unlike 5th Ed psykers, Chaos ones still have to purchase powers, and unlike all the other 5th Ed books (exc. IG) Chaos don't have an Anti Psyker option either. I've added in that they now HAVE to buy at least 1 power to reflect this.
CSM: Now it's just Scout, Move Through Cover, and 4+ Save. The Infiltrating should be left to the Chosen :P
Skull Champion: And?
Plague Champion: Mkay. Altered Power Weapon(s) costs. What's the problem with Nurgle's Rot on a Plague Champion - it's fluffy and isn't exactly OP incomparison to other things. Added a Poisoned Attacks option.
Possessed: Added a reason to use Chaos Glory icon on Possessed...
Chosen: Removed Scouts, because apparently theres something bad with having a redundant rule (they already had Infiltrate).
Chaos Terminator: Huge jump in points - so it becomes more points over time rather than less as the Icon upgrade was.
Chaos Raptors: Do you know why I added Hit and Run? Because they've always been described as a raiding party to me, and were used for shock tactics in the Horus Heresy. But meh, taken it out and just left Fleet.
Chaos Bikers: Whoops! I was thinking of Scout Bikers in C: SM for the cost, wasn't I?
Chaos Spawn: I chose to give them Scouts because they needed at least some reason to be used - so Hunting Animals felt appropriate, being let loose before the attack to sniff out Infiltrating foes. But meh - changed it for Move Through Cover, which mitigates the other Spawn weakness.
Chaos Tanks: Added a cost, and it's standard...
Defiler: Added a cost, and changed a few things.

Melissia
05-29-2010, 07:44 AM
Well, good luck with this. I can't claim to have enough of an attention span when it comes to marines to give more than that one post... sorry.

Master Bryss
05-29-2010, 08:16 AM
I like the 'naked' CSM option, good for Alpha Legion armies. Please however press the enter key in between unit entries to make it easier on the eye.

For Aspiring Sorcerors, I would keep them as 60 pts, but give them the choice of either Doombolt or Bolt of Change for free. I don't like how in the current Dex you pay for a Sorceror but they don't come with any powers!

Huron Blackheart confuses me. Do you mean that all Marks are 5 points, or they are 5 points more expensive? The latter makes more sense if he makes Chaos Glory cheaper. Wording can be confusing.

Some good ideas here. especially with the HQs. Also, I will be writing up Chaos Sandbox soon, so look forward to it...

Herald of Nurgle
05-29-2010, 10:51 AM
Huzzah for Chaos Sandboxes, where even the urine in the sand wants to eat you!

All Icons except from Chaos Glory cost +5pts. Chaos Glory costs 5pts less.

I personally think that the Aspring Sorcerers were TOTALLY overpriced, even before factoring in purchasing powers. Plus theres still a massive saving on powers from the 40pt change. (Since Doombolt has already become 20pts, it means that the power has become 'free'. Here Bolt of Change is too decent to make it Free lmao)

DarkLink
06-03-2010, 07:18 PM
Add in options for Cult units other than the basic ones. The old Mark system would work fine.

You can buy an Icon for a squad, or you can buy Marks for certain, specific units (Terminators, primarily).

The cost of the Marks and the benifits can be derived pretty easily from the basic Cult troop entries. For example, Terminators could be upgraded to Berzerkers for +Xpts per model, and gain Furious Charge, +1 A and WS 5. This costs 6pts for power armor Marines, but should probably cost a little more for Terminators.