How do you feel about "professionally" painted armies? [Archive] - BoLS Lounge : Wargames, Warhammer & Miniatures Forum

DarkAngelHopeful

05-28-2010, 12:29 AM

Dear BoLS readers and guests,

I find that I don't have the skill to paint my models to the standards I want or the time and desire to work on my painting skills to obtain said standard. However, I do enjoy having models that look professionally painted. As such, I pay my best friend, an art teacher who paints display quality work, to paint my models. I also contract out another professional model painter to work other modeling projects since he has more time than my best friend, as painting war gaming models is his profession.

As someone who enjoys having models look professionally painted, but who pays for that professional standard, how do you feel about someone who pays people to paint their armies in general?

How would you rate a player's painting score for their army in a tournament if they explained that they had paid to have them painted, but had cited who painted them?

As a caveat, I would like to state that I always mention the person who painted my models to give them full credit and do a little word of mouth advertising for them.

Very Respectfully, DarkAngelHopeful

fuzzbuket

05-28-2010, 02:36 AM

i am not against "pro painted" armies however the modelling/painting is one of the funnest things about THE HOBBy :D

i used to have NO time for painting so i wok e up 5 mins earlier and did 5 mins of painting befor school! i used to suck at painting but i got better

remember:

THE MORE YOU PAiNT THE BEttEr You GET :D

as for tournemnt scores id sadly give your painting a 0 because it isnt YOUR painting however being nice and explaining it might give you a bit more sportsmanship scores :P

(sadly this is because:
if a newbie paints his army badly but tried VERY hard should he get a higher painting score than someone who just got his army painted for him??)

just try to find some tuts on the web (and watch your friend paint this will give you LOADS of tips )

most can look good with (colours for custom eldar warlocks in brackets)

whilst one colour is drying do another part of the model this speeds up painting time!!

Robes
spray undercoat (black)
undercoat (scab red)
heavy drybrush (blood red)
light drybrush ( blood red/bleached bone 1:1)
edge highlight (skull white)

armour
shadows (shadow grey
lighter shadows (1:1 white/grey
armour colour (skull white

weapons
base (boltgun metal
highlight (mithril silver
wash (sepia wash

good luck hope this helps

-fuzz

Lemt

05-28-2010, 02:36 AM

DrLove42

05-28-2010, 02:54 AM

I think it's OK, specially the way you go about it. To put an example, would you give your opponent a low sportmanship score just because he got his list on the net? So I see no problem with having a professional paint your army (unless, of course, tournament rules say otherwise or you claim credit for the painting).

But sportsmanship is about how they are to play against, Yes there list has a part in that but the person playing it could be really friendly or an absolute ***. If they downloaded their list, and their personality of the internet that'd be different ;).

As for pro painted it doesn't bother me, i just feel you're missing out. Modelling and painting is my favourite part of the hobby, so if you turn up with a pro paint i feel you've missed out, but i don't complain cos you've got some gorgeous models to look at

Commissar Lewis

05-28-2010, 03:53 AM

Personally I say more power to em. If people want to pay someone to paint their army it's their perrogative. And if the pro painters are good enough to make a living off it then good for them.

I guess the main point is I'm more or less indifferent about it.

Kahoolin

05-28-2010, 04:40 AM

I think that's a really tricky question. If a tourney has prizes for best painted (as many do) then I think it's pretty obviously unfair to enter an army you didn't paint and possibly win a prize. Not to mention painting can sometimes affect overall score. If you get 10/10 for painting when you paid a pro you are effectively buying tournament points. Treating pro-painted armies as if the player painted them defeats the purpose of painting scores and prizes.

But how can you police it anyway? Some people, like you, might be honest, but others might pay a pro and then tell everyone they did it so they can win the prize/get the points.

So I guess my opinion is that if there're prizes involved, only armies painted by the competitor should be in the running, and if painting score affects overall score you should get zero for painting if you didn't paint it yourself. The problem, as with so many competitions, is getting people to be honest :rolleyes:

Friendlies games as always, who cares? I certainly wouldn't think you were any less of a hobbyist because you don't enjoy/have time for painting. If I'm at a tourney though, I don't see why you should get the same points for painting as me when you didn't actually lift a brush. Anyone who thinks you should is pretty much saying they don't think painting should be relevant to tourneys.

Suttobs

05-28-2010, 08:30 AM

I suppose I feel conflicted about this.
On one hand, as someone who is frustrated by painting (I am almost completely colour blind, painting to a MageKnight/D&D Mini standard is tough enough, highlights are borderline impossible, Dark red/brown/black all look the same, etc.) I have no problem with people paying or having a friend paint their armies. I'd do it myself, except.... price.
I don't do the tournament scene myself, and instinctively, if you didn't paint your army, it seems you shouldn't get points for it. I see no reason they shouldn't be eligable for "best painted" etc, as long as proper credit is given. Of course that opens the door to all the drama you occasionally see at the Golden Daemons...

Iceman

05-28-2010, 09:21 AM

I'm with Kahoolin. If prizes are being handed out for painting, then anyone who didn't paint their army shouldn't get a prize. Obviously, it would be virtually impossible to police that if the person in question didn't admit to contracting out the painting.
Other than that, if you don't enjoy the painting aspect and can afford to have someone else paint them for you, go right ahead. Although, I do think you are missing out on one of the things that gives you real pride in your army.

Fizzics

05-28-2010, 10:55 AM

Personally I say more power to em. If people want to pay someone to paint their army it's their prerogative. And if the pro painters are good enough to make a living off it then good for them.

I guess the main point is I'm more or less indifferent about it.

Edit: I fixed the quote's misspelling

I echo this emotion. It's whatever they want to do.

Lerra

05-28-2010, 11:55 AM

This is one reason why I dislike paint scores at a tournament. A separate category for best painted is great, and that should be only for people who paint their own minis, but I don't think you should be penalized in other categories for having a pro-painted army or adding a pro-painted HQ to your army. If you don't like to paint, why should I force you to paint? That seems silly considering it's a hobby and it's supposed to be fun.

The other reason why I dislike paint scores being used for overall points is that it is so subjective. I saw a beautifully painted and converted army at Adepticon get tanked on points because the judge didn't like Orks and disliked the cartoony, bright, silly style that the guy had chosen to emphasize in his army. The judge thought orks were supposed to look more vicious and feral.

Fizyx

05-28-2010, 12:32 PM

DarkLink

05-28-2010, 12:53 PM

As long as you don't take credit for someone else's painting, go right ahead and pay for someone to do it.

One of our local players (who happens to be a Golden Daemon winner), happens to make a lot of money painting stuff for people.

i used to have NO time for painting so i wok e up 5 mins earlier and did 5 mins of painting befor school! i used to suck at painting but i got better

Some people have better things to spend time on. Some people really don't consistantly have 5 minutes to waste painting minis every day, just because their opponents get worked up over unpainted/poorly painted minis.

This is where paying someone to paint his minis for him comes in. You get painted minis, without having to spend time you may not have. It's not like he's taking credit for the paint job.

as for tournemnt scores id sadly give your painting a 0 because it isnt YOUR painting however being nice and explaining it might give you a bit more sportsmanship scores :P

...and this is why paint scores have no place in tournaments. Why the %$#@$ should his score be based on whether or not he has enough time to waste on painting plastic minis. Believe it or not, some people have real lives.

Kahoolin

05-28-2010, 12:56 PM

...and this is why paint scores have no place in tournaments. Why the %$#@$ should his score be based on whether or not he has enough time to waste on painting plastic minis. Believe it or not, some people have real lives.Yeah but it's a hobby, not just a wargame. Tournaments are (normally) designed so that people in the community can show off their skills in all aspects of the hobby. Why should my score be based on whether or not I care enough to waste my time practicing the game? ;)

Edit: Actually you know what, I don't want to open this whole can of worms about what a tournament should be. Forget I said anything. I'll just re-iterate my opinion that IF there happen to be prizes/points involved then you probably should have to do the work to win the prize - otherwise you're just buying it basically.

fade_74

05-28-2010, 01:27 PM

I would give you a zero and tell you so. I wouldn't be mean about it. I just don't think you should get any credit for something that you didn't spend hours on yourself.

There are very few painting services that actually do a really amazing paintjob anyway. (GMMstudios is pretty awesome)

Why should someone be able to "buy" points? I have spent 20+ years getting good at painting. I have sweat and bled to get good at painting. I also had a life the whole time. I have a couple college degrees, a wife, a child, a house, a career, and car. I deserve those points...and so do other people who have put the time into their hobby. Those points are supposed to be a reward for doing just that.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that it would be rewarding to have someone else paint my minis. I love to see my army on the table. Even if it isn't the best out there. I enjoy putting time and thought into it.

lobster-overlord

05-28-2010, 01:45 PM

If someone presented an army painted beautifully, I would give him full credit whether he painted it or not. Painting scores are for how well your army is painted, not who did it (unless the tournament instructions specifically say so.) Just because he didn't do it himself does not mean he didn't put some effort into their appearance, it just means someone else did the work.

The spirit of the game is that you have entered YOUR army that YOU painted. If you take credit for it, and claim it as yours that is counter to the entire sportsman ethic.

I ran an RT tournament a few years back, and our overall army winner had a great army. Found out a week later that he'd bought it from someone on ebay. If we'd known, we would have excluded him from the painting comp, as it specifically stated in the RT rules that the person who was playing the army had to be the one responsible for building/painting it for it to qualify for painting awards.

Painting scores are not for how well painted it is, but for how well YOU built/painted YOUR army.

John M.

DarkLink

05-28-2010, 02:47 PM

Yeah but it's a hobby, not just a wargame. Tournaments are (normally) designed so that people in the community can show off their skills in all aspects of the hobby. Why should my score be based on whether or not I care enough to waste my time practicing the game? ;)

That's what the Golden Daemon awards are for:D.

Want to know who's the best painter/converter? Have a painting contest.

You want to know who's the best player? Have a tournament.

That's not to say that they can't be at the same time. They just need to be scored separately. If someone brings an army they didn't paint themselves to a painting contest, they deserve a score of zero. If someone brings an army they didn't paint themselves to a tournament game, they shouldn't get their scores docked at all, because they came there to play.

DarkLink

05-28-2010, 02:53 PM

The spirit of the game is that you have entered YOUR army that YOU painted. If you take credit for it, and claim it as yours that is counter to the entire sportsman ethic.

Well, the spirit of the game, for you. Don't assume that other people play the game for the exact same reasons as you. Some people play... well, to play the game.

Now, taking credit for it is unethical in general, and should definately get you a zero in a painting contest. But it's @#%^%#@ to force painting scores into tournament scores. Just keep them separate. Have a Best General award, and a separate Best Painter award. Not that hard, and you just avoided angering a lot of players by separating them.

And if you want to have a Best Overall award, for the best hobbyist? Great. Total up the Best General and Best Painter awards. Simple, and it keeps everyone happy.

Melissia

05-28-2010, 06:04 PM

the modelling/painting is one of the funnest things about THE HOBBy :DAnd I think it's the absolute worst part. It's a chore. It's tedious. It's especially bad on horde armies. It's not fun to do, and I just want to get it over with so I can get to things which ARE fun.

If you can afford to pay someone else to paint your armies, go for it. Don't take credit for it mind you, but don't give in to the whining jerks trying to tell you what to do with your army.

scadugenga

05-28-2010, 06:21 PM

And I think it's the absolute worst part. It's a chore. It's tedious. It's especially bad on horde armies. It's not fun to do, and I just want to get it over with so I can get to things which ARE fun.

If you can afford to pay someone else to paint your armies, go for it. Don't take credit for it mind you, but don't give in to the whining jerks trying to tell you what to do with your army.

QFT.

The "It's a Hobby" Stalin's piss me off. (edit: Because now we know which demon from WWII is acceptable...)

Painting is absolutely not "one of the funnest things about the hobby" to me. I don't have the time, or inclination to dedicate to being a better painter. I'd rather put the time into being a better writer, a better husband, a better friend, and a better martial artist. (not necessarily in that order...)

I do give full props to people who excel at painting, though. As long as they don't harp on me for my lack thereof. ;)

RocketRollRebel

05-28-2010, 07:18 PM

Kahoolin

05-28-2010, 08:50 PM

And if you want to have a Best Overall award, for the best hobbyist? Great. Total up the Best General and Best Painter awards. Simple, and it keeps everyone happy.That's what most tourneys in Australia are like. And best overall > best general in terms of prizes and kudos. Our tourneys are overall hobby contests, not just game tournaments. And in that situation I don't think it's cool to award points to people who didn't do anything but pay money. I could theoretically pay someone to fight my battles just as easily as paint my army.

Just want to add that I actually enjoy the process and result of painting and have been practicing for years, loving every minute of it. I also find it way more rewarding than being good at the game, something that I think is a lot easier to accomplish. And I'm sorry my opinion pisses you off scadugenga but it is a hobby, not simply a game. If it was just a game we would all be playing with identical cardboard squares like my old man's 70's historical games. Admit it, part of the reason you play is to see fantastically painted models battling it out over blasted ruins :D

eagleboy7259

05-28-2010, 09:33 PM

Why would anybody be against painted pro painted armies? I'm more in favor of the person who pays to have his army fully painted than the guy who paints it himself and fields the horde of plastic, pewter or primer for months on end. Gaming in 40k is as much a visual exprience as it is a gaming, modeling, painting, fluffing, listing . . . exprience. Fully painted armies make the game more attractive. I love painting, but it gets awful tedious and I'm not very good at it, so since I'm trying to get an army that I would take to adepticon or bashcon I'm having it pro painted. I think its dumb to hate on anyone who respects the game enought to at least get their army painted.

scadugenga

05-28-2010, 09:40 PM

And I'm sorry my opinion pisses you off scadugenga but it is a hobby, not simply a game. If it was just a game we would all be playing with identical cardboard squares like my old man's 70's historical games. Admit it, part of the reason you play is to see fantastically painted models battling it out over blasted ruins :D

Kahoolin, we're good--it ***'d out the word that corresponds to the Third Reich party...

So what I'm saying is that the people who are rabidly annoying "it's-a-hobby-and-you-should-devote-the-time-to-all-aspects- of-the-game-it-deserves-or-you-are-a-lesser-player" types piss me off.

Now, if' you *are* one of those types, then we'll probably be disagreeing a whole lot. :) If you're just a person who likes painting, but can be accepting of other "viewpoints" of gaming, then goodonya and we're golden.

Really, if it weren't for the obnoxious "profanity" filter removing the word n a z i, then there wouldn't have been a misconception.

Personally, I wasn't aware that a historical political entity, however evil and misguided, was considered profanity...

Do they "******" out "Stalin" I wonder? His actions were also pretty darn reprehensible too...

Edit: I guess Stalin gets a pass. Murdering 15+ million of his own people I guess is acceptable.

Kahoolin

05-28-2010, 09:48 PM

Kahoolin, we're good--it ***'d out the word that corresponds to the Third Reich party...All good mate, I wondered what the word was :)

Do they "******" out "Stalin" I wonder? His actions were also pretty darn reprehensible too...Lol. "Godammn hobby Stalins!"

scadugenga

05-28-2010, 10:13 PM

Lol. "Godammn hobby Stalins!"

Well, now we know what to substitute!

MajorSoB

05-28-2010, 10:38 PM

I think you have opened up a great topic for discussion!

First before going any further I would like to applaud you for your honesty. I understand not everyone enjoys painting and you have stated that. I also like that you disclose this fact at an event and let the judges and players know you have contacted painting services for your army rather than paint it yourself. I believe some credit should be given to you for this.

I also have painted models for friends as well. I am currently working on a Space Wolves army that a local shop owner has wanted but does not have the time or talent to make it happen. If painting his army is the only way to get him playing ( he has time for the occasional ) then I am OK doing so. Also it helps his business having good looking armies on display when he explains the game to potential new customers.

....however...

In a tournament setting I do not believe someone who has contracted painting services should score the same as the people who have done the work themselves. At best, I feel that a person playing a borrowed or paid-for-paint army they should receive a maximum of half scores in painting if they disclose this fact before the event starts. If they hide this and are found out they should be eliminated from the tournament. This should apply to people entering a whole army or the vast majority of it, not the person who enters the occasional model painted by a friend. Why? To me in quite simple, 40K is a hobby and tournaments in my opinion should embrace all facets of the game, not just army construction and gaming tactics, but the other aspects that make this game fun like modeling, painting and good social skills.

I do understand that you feel you are not a good painter, which I can understand ( very few people start off being good ) but talent is developed through practice. In some ways entering an entire army that you have not painted is like plagiarizing a final project ( even if you credit the person who wrote it you would fail ) and in some ways it feels like lip syncing as well ( remember Milli Vanilli?) because in some ways you are misrepresenting yourself to your opponents regardless of your reasons.

razcalking

05-28-2010, 10:46 PM

In anything but a tournament with painting scores, I'm all for pro-painted armies.

In a tournament with painting scores, however, they should receive a score of 0.

Why? Well, let's apply the same situation to the other scoring areas. Imagine if a player brought along a tactical advisor, who made all of the gameplay decisions. Should that player be eligible for Best General?

Or what if a player brought along someone else to talk for him, charm the other players, but never said a word himself. Should he get Best Sportsmanship?

If a player wants to be eligible for awards like Best Painting or Best Overall (meaning best at all aspects of the hobby), then they need to earn it themselves. Anyone doing otherwise is lazy.

scadugenga

05-28-2010, 10:51 PM

And yeah--for the record, if a tourney included painting comps as part of the overall score, I would not wish someone who bought a painted army to receive any points for the painting aspect. This however, should also be clearly defined in the rules of the tournament beforehand so that anyone with a paid-for paintjob is aware ahead of time, and they don't get a nasty surprise. (And it would hopefully prevent whining. Anything that reduces the amount of whining in the world is a good thing...)

Tourney scores should be based on the effort *you* can achieve...not just your wallet.

Edited to remove superfluous "however's and ",'s" that my subconscious mind adds whenever I pause for thought later at night...

fade_74

05-28-2010, 10:52 PM

Kahoolin, we're good--it ***'d out the word that corresponds to the Third Reich party...

So what I'm saying is that the people who are rabidly annoying "it's-a-hobby-and-you-should-devote-the-time-to-all-aspects- of-the-game-it-deserves-or-you-are-a-lesser-player" types piss me off.

Now, if' you *are* one of those types, then we'll probably be disagreeing a whole lot. :) If you're just a person who likes painting, but can be accepting of other "viewpoints" of gaming, then goodonya and we're golden.

Really, if it weren't for the obnoxious "profanity" filter removing the word n a z i, then there wouldn't have been a misconception.

Personally, I wasn't aware that a historical political entity, however evil and misguided, was considered profanity...

Do they "******" out "Stalin" I wonder? His actions were also pretty darn reprehensible too...

Edit: I guess Stalin gets a pass. Murdering 15+ million of his own people I guess is acceptable.

To funny.....I tried to explain in a post about one of their uniform...the colors and such...and found that out awhile back. I wonder what other bad things it won't let us say....

kim jong il mao tse tung saddam hussein chiang kai shek o.j. simpson democratic party muammar al qaddafi republican party george bush jr. ross perot window ME Pol pot Adolph Eichmann Idi Amin jervis johnson

Just kidding O.J. please don't kill me

MajorSoB

05-28-2010, 10:56 PM

You forgot Nancy Pelosi Barrack Insane Obama and to be fair Sarah Palin too. Hey, did those words make it????

DarkAngelHopeful

05-29-2010, 12:20 AM

Dear BoLS members and guests,

Thank you very much for your honest feedback and comments. I appreciate the broader view of opinions from the gaming community at large that I receive here as it adds to the opinions of my local gaming groups. I also appreciate the civility of the comments on this thread as sometimes certain topics can lend to hostile comments.

As I mentioned in my original post, I don't have the time or desire to learn to paint my armies well. I didn't find that much satisfaction from the few models that I have painted, and I found myself just wishing my armies would be finished so I could move onto my favorite part of the hobby, playing fun and interesting games with my friends. I know that I can play games with hordes of unpainted models, and I had for years, but since graduating from college and starting my career I found that I had some extra funds available to obtain the fully painted armies that I had always wanted, through contracting out professional painters.

Moreover, before I posted this thread, I had made the decision to be at the mercy of the players and rules of the tournaments I will attend for painting scores, because I would never take credit for painting an army I didn't paint. While I don't feel it is "plagiarism" to pay for your army to be painted, especially if you cite who painted it, I do understand that some players would prefer to give a professionally painted army a score of a zero for the painting category.

Being pretty competitive, albeit relatively new to the tournament scene, fun and competitive games interest me too. I appreciate the social aspect of the hobby more than the painting/modeling aspect. In fact, my two lifelong best friends were initially made through 2nd edition 40k. So, I've always had a special place in my heart for Warhammer and Games Workshop in general. In any event, when I go to a tournament, I want to add value to the games I play with my opponents by having a fully painted army for them to play against.

So, if I ever see any of you in the future at a tournament you'll be sure to know that my armies have been professionally painted and I won't give you a hard time if you give me a zero for painting. I just want to have fun playing against you. :)

Very Respectfully,
DarkAngelHopeful

DarkLink

05-29-2010, 12:27 AM

That's what most tourneys in Australia are like. And best overall > best general in terms of prizes and kudos.

And thats fine. I've just seen enough people who can't seem to understand those distinctions, and can't understand that playing the game is a separate part of the hobby.

Melissia

05-29-2010, 07:18 AM

In a tournament setting I do not believe someone who has contracted painting services should score the same as the people who have done the work themselves.

I do, because I don't think painting scores have a place in competitive tournaments, unless it is a PAINTING tourney ro something. If this were a hobby about painting, I'd not be in it because I ****ing HATE PAINTING.

Nikephoros

05-29-2010, 07:55 AM

I'll believe painting scores should be factored into tournament results when the superbowl is decided by which team has cooler uniforms.

Or when I can win a Golden Daemon award with battle points.

rbryce

05-29-2010, 08:12 AM

im in 2 minds on this, as someone who loves to paint(4 years to paint 1000 pts sisters and counting), i feel a little cheapened when i do get to play and its not at least partially painted(i mean more than a black/white/grey undercoat). on the other hand though, i understand that other players dont have the patience/time/willpower/need to paint an army, in this case i find a "pro"(using the phrase loosely) painted army acceptable. now im not saying im one of those JK Rowling(we all know where the pit of ultimate evil REALLY lies, and its not in history) types who will barrel down on anyone for not meeting my standards, because theyre my standards, not anyone elses, and to force them on another person is wrong(looking at you Bush jr.). i guess what im trying to say (in a Tony Blair way) is a part of me would be disappointed, but i wouldnt do anything about it.

Wow, you really can mention more evil on this forum than youd think, wonder why Pre- to during WW2 Germany suffers at the hands of BoLS, Nixon spat more hate than most of those mentioned here in jest.

Disclaimer: i am in no way responsible for what my brain tells me to type at any point, i cant help the fact it runs my fingers lol

Madness

05-29-2010, 08:24 AM

DarkAngelHopeful

05-29-2010, 08:34 AM

Here's a crazy idea, if you don't like painting, play a game with prepainted miniatures.

Blown your mind yet?

On a different note, what ticks me off about pro-painted miniatures is that the soul of the player isn't infused in the minis, if I ever were to contract a professional painter I'd give him so many directions that it would be exactly like if I painted it, minus the hand steadyness and the experience.
I've often collaborated with people for painting purposes, and that is like getting half of the job outsourced, but my spirit is there since when it's my minis I get to call the shots.

Madness,

I prefer to play Games Workshop games and if Games Workshop sold pre-painted models from "Eavy Metal I would buy them. However, since they don't and due to previously stated reasons, I contract out my painting.

I do work with my painters on what I want done with my models. They don't just go "willy nilly" with my models. As you say, since they are my minis, I call the shots.

Lerra

05-29-2010, 09:15 AM

A lot of people don't have the option to switch wargames just because they dislike one aspect of the game. Around here, you have two options for wargames: 40k and fantasy. Any other game is very few and far between. Most people who pick up the hobby do it to play with friends, not because they have a passion for painting/modeling.

We've got a lot of folks who have been playing for 5 years with unpainted minis, and I'm fine with that. They're still fun people and I enjoy playing with them. I'm not the sort to dictate how people spend their free time, and some people really dislike painting/playing. Whatever floats your boat.

Madness

05-29-2010, 09:15 AM

If you work with them, and maybe even do some of the work yourself, it's not a simple contracting, you're collaborating with someone more expert than you, and reward him for his time. Very different from a philosophical perspective from the bad approach I spotted.

Lerra, and you never will until you try some new stuff. I often try new stuff just for the sake of change, it was chronopia, then it was mutant chronicles, and then starship troopers, and then Confrontation, not to mention Specialist Games. Variety helps in not getting a bad case of the nerd rage.

scadugenga

05-29-2010, 09:16 AM

Here's a crazy idea, if you don't like painting, play a game with prepainted miniatures.

Blown your mind yet?

On a different note, what ticks me off about pro-painted miniatures is that the soul of the player isn't infused in the minis,

Jebus, so now my soul is inherently linked to my painting skills?

"Christ, Scad...you must be going to hell...your painting sucks!"

How is it, particularly, that one infuses a soul into a medium such as paint? Are tinctures involved? ;)

Madness

05-29-2010, 09:19 AM

Yeah, painting is not an artistic expression, and expression is not infusing one's self into material things.

eldargal

05-29-2010, 09:20 AM

rbryce

05-29-2010, 09:21 AM

who the hell is jebus? i think what madness is getting at is that when you invest time and effort into something, something of yourself gets imprinted into it.

DarkAngelHopeful

05-29-2010, 09:23 AM

If you work with them, and maybe even do some of the work yourself, it's not a simple contracting, you're collaborating with someone more expert than you, and reward him for his time. Very different from a philosophical perspective from the bad approach I spotted.

Madness,

I don't deny that I don't do any of the painting. I do however, tell the painters what I want and check up on the progress of the models and guide them to my end goal. I don't want to get into semantics about contracting and collaborating, however, I probably am closer to contracting them out according to your definition.

Madness

05-29-2010, 09:27 AM

@DarkAngelHopeful: I wouldn't want either, but I think you should get hands on in the project, if only for a token presence.

@rbryce: he may be a friend of Brian. From Nazareth.

scadugenga

05-29-2010, 09:38 AM

Yeah, painting is not an artistic expression, and expression is not infusing one's self into material things.

Hey, you're the one bringing metaphysics into a discussion about buying painted toys...

Just sayin, :P

Madness

05-29-2010, 09:41 AM

People called an urinal on wheels art, I think I'm still on the safe side.

DarkLink

05-29-2010, 09:53 AM

I think it would be nice if everyone painted their own armies to the best of their ability. However, I would rather see someone who lacked the time or effort pay someone else to paint their army well than field it unpainted or really badly painted.

I also would add that is it completely unfair and unreasonable to dismiss someone for having bought a painted army, when they didn't have the time or ability to paint it. Unless they're trying to enter it in a painting contest in their name.

fade_74

05-29-2010, 10:26 AM

Madness,

I prefer to play Games Workshop games and if Games Workshop sold pre-painted models from "Eavy Metal I would buy them. However, since they don't and due to previously stated reasons, I contract out my painting.

I do work with my painters on what I want done with my models. They don't just go "willy nilly" with my models. As you say, since they are my minis, I call the shots.

I understand your point....but I have to wonder, if you are not a painter yourself, do you know the shots to call? For example.....I can go out and buy a race car. I know it is a car. It has an engine, a frame, a steering wheel. But do I really know anything about it? If they give me a list of options would I know what to pick? Hell no. I can picture the race car in my head, what it looks like, how fast I want it to go, but do I have the language, since I don't know cars, to explain that to a race car dealer?

"I want one red and black race car that goes really fast and sounds really kick ***"
"I want one red and black army with lots of weathering that kicks ***"

Oh, I'll get an army....or a car...but will it really be the one that I picture in my head? Probably not. Some people will be happy with what they get....but I never would be. If I want that army that is in my head, I am the only one that can create it. If I don't know how to do part of it....I learn it. If I can't find the precise shade of grey....I mix it. If I want that guardsman looking left instead of right....I convert it.

Btw....I am not trying to berate anyone for buying their army. Darkangelhopeful seems like a nice guy. It is money he earned, so he can spend it without any thoughts of what we think. I am just trying to explain how I feel personally about it. Take it or leave it.

DarkAngelHopeful

05-29-2010, 11:05 AM

I understand your point....but I have to wonder, if you are not a painter yourself, do you know the shots to call? For example.....I can go out and buy a race car. I know it is a car. It has an engine, a frame, a steering wheel. But do I really know anything about it? If they give me a list of options would I know what to pick? Hell no. I can picture the race car in my head, what it looks like, how fast I want it to go, but do I have the language, since I don't know cars, to explain that to a race car dealer?

"I want one red and black race car that goes really fast and sounds really kick ***"
"I want one red and black army with lots of weathering that kicks ***"

Oh, I'll get an army....or a car...but will it really be the one that I picture in my head? Probably not. Some people will be happy with what they get....but I never would be. If I want that army that is in my head, I am the only one that can create it. If I don't know how to do part of it....I learn it. If I can't find the precise shade of grey....I mix it. If I want that guardsman looking left instead of right....I convert it.

Btw....I am not trying to berate anyone for buying their army. Darkangelhopeful seems like a nice guy. It is money he earned, so he can spend it without any thoughts of what we think. I am just trying to explain how I feel personally about it. Take it or leave it.

Fade,

I understand where you are coming from. And you are absolutely right in that I will never have an army as "cool" as I want it in my head. I accept that. For instance, I commissioned my Spacehulk models out and while they look stunning, there were a few imperfections that I could pick out that I didn't like. Never the less, being bound by my lack of skill, time, and desire, I accepted the paint job and pressed on.

I wager it will be that way every time. However, I believe there is a time to money ratio or balance (all of you math gurus, be gentle with my analogy) that fits me. My time in this instance is worth more to me than my money when it comes to painting. I believe that I can pretty much do anything if I want to, however, I don't think it would be a wise investment of my time to learn to paint my minis to the level of detail that I can currently buy. I just feel my time is better spent in other aspects of my life. Now, that isn't to say that I don't respect or value the skill and the models that people have painted. I think it's amazing that people have so much skill. I just know myself very well, and I will not commit the time and energy necessary to learn to paint as well as I want my models to look. However, I love to play warhammer, so I will continue to play and have my models painted for me.

And I would never pretend to enter my models in a painting contest and say I painted them. I don't think that would be fair to all of you talented modelers and painters. :)

I guess I am just hoping people will still be friendly with me and others like me who pay to have their models painted and will still play games with me and others and not be too critical. :)

Kahoolin

05-29-2010, 12:03 PM

I guess I am just hoping people will still be friendly with me and others like me who pay to have their models painted and will still play games with me and others and not be too critical. :)Well for what it's worth then I'd play you for sure :) It's always great to play against another army that has as much effort put into it as I have put into mine (not saying I'm GD standard or anything, but I do put a lot of effort in). When it comes right down to it I play for the spectacle and like Eldargal I'd rather play against a gorgeously painted army than some primed lumps, and I don't care how it got painted or who by.

You seem like a friendly and mature gamer, so you'd most likely get friendliness in return. IME most people will forgive a lot, even change their ordinary habits, if they are asked to politely by a smiling person.

Gotthammer

05-29-2010, 12:25 PM

Or what if a player brought along someone else to talk for him, charm the other players, but never said a word himself. Should he get Best Sportsmanship?

For some, yes, as it would be a vast improvement.

DarkAngelHopeful, I'd certainly play against you even though I personally would never get someone else to paint my army for me - painting/modelling is the main aspect of the hobby for me so I game very little by comparison. But I wouldn't hold you to paint everything yourself or begrudge you contracting it out so long as you were honest about it not being your work.

Madness

05-29-2010, 02:17 PM

Also make sure to balance the Karma by mentioning the painter every chance you have.

scadugenga

05-29-2010, 03:50 PM

Also make sure to balance the Karma by mentioning the painter every chance you have.

I suppose having business cards for the painter works as well.

Hell, at Adepticon I wasn't doing much more than buying my BF 1520 and perusing, and somehow people threw scads of model-painting business cards at me.

Melissia

05-29-2010, 04:41 PM

Here's a crazy idea, if you don't like painting, play a game with prepainted miniatures

I love the 40k universe' background. I love the game itself. I love the idea of these armies battling it out, I love to have my characters put into the army, and so on and so forth. Just because I don't like the most onerous, tedious, busy-work, and just plain obnoxious task in the hobby does not mean I need to switch hobbies. No, just no. Don't be a jerk. Painting is, to me and quite a damned few people apparently, a MINOR aspect of the hobby, and an aspect of marginal importance (you don't want to field an unpainted army, it's rude-- doesn't mean you actually want to paint, because painting is boring and tedious).

DarkLink

05-29-2010, 05:34 PM

I love the 40k universe' background. I love the game itself. I love the idea of these armies battling it out, I love to have my characters put into the army, and so on and so forth. Just because I don't like the most onerous, tedious, busy-work, and just plain obnoxious task in the hobby does not mean I need to switch hobbies. No, just no. Don't be a jerk. Painting is, to me and quite a damned few people apparently, a MINOR aspect of the hobby, and an aspect of marginal importance (you don't want to field an unpainted army, it's rude-- doesn't mean you actually want to paint, because painting is boring and tedious).

QFT

I do like having a painted army. But it's a mere nicety. I play the game because I like playing the game. I have absolutely no problem playing with unpainted models. Because, frankly, I often have better things to do with my time than paint a bunch of pieces of metal and plastic.

Lemt

05-29-2010, 07:58 PM

I love the 40k universe' background. I love the game itself. I love the idea of these armies battling it out, I love to have my characters put into the army, and so on and so forth. Just because I don't like the most onerous, tedious, busy-work, and just plain obnoxious task in the hobby does not mean I need to switch hobbies. No, just no. Don't be a jerk. Painting is, to me and quite a damned few people apparently, a MINOR aspect of the hobby, and an aspect of marginal importance (you don't want to field an unpainted army, it's rude-- doesn't mean you actually want to paint, because painting is boring and tedious).

I LIKE painting and converting my armies, but this is very, very true.

Melissia

05-29-2010, 08:09 PM

Strangely, I like converting, but I HATE painting. It's ****in' boring and I'd rather be doing anything else...

A HUGE BLUNT

05-29-2010, 08:20 PM

I don't care if you painted them or you paid someone else to paint them, I welcome seeing any fully painted army on the table. Nothing sucks more then watching someone move around a blob of gray plastic. Now isn't the time to be picky about our opponents armies when it comes to warhammer, we'd welcome just about anyone if it meant more players. To those who disagree, that's great than you have the luxury to be picky about who you play space dolls with.

Madness

05-30-2010, 11:43 AM

You kids have no discipline.

Melissia

05-30-2010, 11:58 AM

You kids have no discipline.I have discipline, how else do you think I'm painting a footslogging Ork army? Takes far more discipline than any Marine crap.

I just don't enjoy it. It's boring, tedious, boring, repetitive, boring, and also boring.

ashnaile

05-30-2010, 12:15 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9RCpXMiLTA

DarkLink

05-30-2010, 01:32 PM

I gotta back Melissia up on this one.

I'm in the hobby for fun.

If there's a part of the hobby that isn't fun, I'm not going to force myself to suffer through it.

Now, fortunately, I occasionally get into painting moods and get stuff done. So most of my stuff is painted (well, all my GK stuff, my Sisters aren't fully painted). But I won't paint unless I either feel like it, or have a reason to.

Madness

05-30-2010, 01:33 PM

It's a different kind of fun, one that asks more and rewards on the longer run.

BuFFo

05-30-2010, 05:13 PM

How would you rate a player's painting score for their army in a tournament if they explained that they had paid to have them painted, but had cited who painted them?

The same as if you painted it.

razcalking

05-30-2010, 05:58 PM

It's a different kind of fun, one that asks more and rewards on the longer run.

Quoted for Truth; however, good luck convincing most people under 25 that long-term rewards even exist.

HsojVvad

05-30-2010, 07:34 PM

If your army is painted by somone else, who cares? It's your army, it's your money, do with it as you see fit. I have no problem with it.

I find some of the replies in here so funny. We are either geeks or nerds in here. I thought we had enough trouble with people not into our hobby calling us names or calling us loosers, geeks, nerds or what ever. And here we are arguing amongst ourselves in how this "hobby" should or must be played.

Just because some people love to conver, paint and play, they shouldn't put thier believes on others. If you don't like painting, fine, get someone else to do and enjoy what you, is collecting and gamining. Don't like to game, fine, paint and collect.

So am I such a bad person, because I collect and paint (slowly that is) but don't game? I don't do all 3 of the aspects of the hobby so am I a bad person now? Or is a person who dosn't like to pain, is he or she a bad person because of it?

Should we be giving out stickers to anyone who converts, paints and plays the hobby? Are we going to treat everyone like kindergartens and grades 1-3 and give out stickers for doing everything now?

We are all geeks or nerds here. We are fighting amnongst ourselves in how to play a geek or nerd now. Shamefull on some of us, just respect everyone for the choices they make.

Melissia

05-30-2010, 07:49 PM

Quoted for Truth; however, good luck convincing most people under 25 that long-term rewards even exist.Trying to claim that anyone who doesn't like what you like is obviously just immature is itself immature.

I enjoy drawing. I've made meticulous, detailed, complexly and realistically shaded portraits of my friends, which takes days of work and lots of care and talent to get just right. I've taken quite a few classes on the subject, and thoroughly enjoyed both the classes and the art form in general. Indeed one of my best works took four weeks to complete from start to finish, doing several hours a day five days a week to get it just right. But I don't enjoy PAINTING. Especially not painting tiny metal miniatures (and plastic ones aren't that much better).

For that matter, I've also taken tons of chemistry and biology classes, as well, over the course of six years on and off working manual labor jobs to pay my own tuition while trying to stay out of debt, and I just this year got my two-year degree, and am hoping to finally qualify for a grant so I can get on with my B.Sc. without incurring a lifetime of debt. Do not give me any of this horse**** about impatience. You, sir, do not know what the hell you are talking about, and should not presume to know anything about the lives of those who play this hobby save for your own.

eldargal

05-30-2010, 08:01 PM

DarkLink

05-30-2010, 09:34 PM

I've repainted the models since then but I still did a decent job. Fact is some people just don't enjoy painting. Others don't enjoy modelling. Some don't even enjoy playing. While I think there is something to be said for being a well-rounded (ha) hobbyist, there is no point getting judgemental about it.

I feel this needs repeating. Emphasis mine.

razcalking

05-30-2010, 09:38 PM

I haven't seen anyone saying that those that don't enjoy painting shouldn't be able to play.

What some are saying is that, in a tournament setting, people should not be rewarded points for the work of others. Period.

Melissia

05-30-2010, 09:40 PM

I haven't seen anyone saying that those that don't enjoy painting shouldn't be able to play.No, but I have seen you say crap like this:
good luck convincing most people under 25 that long-term rewards even exist.Do not be condescending or someone will rip you a new ***hole.

I'll be first in line. The statement was (taken in context) immature, ignorant, and quite frankly trollish. You probably should apologize for it.

razcalking

05-30-2010, 09:46 PM

No, but I have seen you say crap like this:Do not be condescending or someone will rip you a new ***hole.

I'll be first in line. The statement was (taken in context) immature, ignorant, and quite frankly trollish. You probably should apologize for it.

The person who just threatened to rip someone on the internet a new ***hole is lecturing about maturity? Wow. Just wow.

Sister Rosette Soulknyt

05-30-2010, 09:49 PM

For someone who has painted there own very large armies over the years, i agree with Melissia, it gets boring after awhile, does anyone like painting a hundred foot troops of the same style?? NO.

Now i have painted every army over the years for freinds, and customers, yes i pro-paint for customers. I try to find time to paint for myslef and i still have over 30 SoB to paint yet, not including Penitant Engines.

Now to answer your question, i know some poeple just dont have a artistic bone in there body, but that should never count to you not enjoying the hobby and game. If you feel you tried, but dont like your work go for it, get a pro-painter involved, i know they can be expensive and let them paint your army.
But as mentioned i would never take credit for it, i know atleast two players near me who do exactly that, funny that the same guy painted both armies though.

In tournaments, painting should never come into account, explain to me how a new player just trying to paint should be scored less than a guy who paints over many years.Both to me try really hard, just one has been in longer and tries harder.

Ive played tournaments and i always over the game talk painting, and if the new player tries really hard i score high. If they just spray paint them and cant be bothered even trying though i wont score high. Id rather score someone who tries really hard higher than a pro-painted army any time.

That said, i find painting boring too, there is never enough time to do it, its repetitive and boring. Thats why i paint like 4 different armies or styles at once to break it up.
Good luck with your army, dont worry about anyone here, if you love the look enjoy the game ok :)

Melissia

05-30-2010, 09:54 PM

The person who just threatened to rip someone on the internet a new ***hole is lecturing about maturity? Wow. Just wow.
I did not threaten you. "Ripping osmeone a new ***hole" does not always insinuate physical violence, as it could also mean that your argument (or rather, trolling statement) is torn apart and shown for what it is-- nothing more than an unjustified piece of smug superiority that you apparently feel towards younger gamers (or indeed young adults in general-- IE ephebiphobia). The trash post (which, in the end, is all it is) that I quoted is asinine at best, insulting at worst, and trolling regardless.

Now kindly shutup and respond to the actual post itself instead of going off on a tangent.

razcalking

05-30-2010, 10:04 PM

I did not threaten you. "Ripping osmeone a new ***hole" does not always insinuate physical violence, as it could also mean that your argument (or rather, trolling statement) is torn apart and shown for what it is-- nothing more than an unjustified piece of smug superiority that you apparently feel towards younger gamers (or indeed young adults in general-- IE ephebiphobia). The trash post (which, in the end, is all it is) that I quoted is asinine at best, insulting at worst, and trolling regardless.

Now kindly shutup and respond to the actual post itself instead of going off on a tangent.

And the word "threaten" does not imply physical violence either - it only means making a statement of unpleasant intent, which you obviously did. You seem to be the resident blow-hard on these forums, so I'll leave you to your "asinine" rantings about trolls and SoBs. Have a great day here in the digital world.

fade_74

05-30-2010, 10:20 PM

Yeah raz.....You must be really really bad when melissia calls you an immature troll ROFL
To friggin funny!

Raz made a perfectly valid observation though. When you are young, you have a hard time seeing things that are to far away. When I was in my early 20's I couldn't see any farther than the next weekend lol. I would have never been able to paint the stuff I have. I would have said "This is going to take me two years to finish? Screw that, let's get a drink and play magictg." I can really hear myself saying that too lol. I think thats what happened to my 2nd semester of college.

Now before this entire thread degenerates into a brawl.....Lots of people had good points. I don't think anyone was trying to cram their ideas down someone else's throat. I still hold that I would drop someones points for painting, if they didn't do the job themselves. BUT! (always a but) I might just throw them a few if they had attempted painting it, came up with the theme, or had good, honest reasons for not doing it themselves.

Maybe us painting stalin's should come up with our own brand of competition. One where there is no best general. Maybe we should get something going where we just come to play 3-4 fun games (that give you NO score) But your painting, conversions, and basing are judged by other competent painters. Then we can spend a weekend just hangin out talking about painting and stuff. I won't travel for a tourney, but I would for that.

wormwood

05-30-2010, 11:46 PM

While everyone modeling and painting their own minis is a nice ideal to aspire to, it's simply impractical for some people. I've been slowly converting and painting a few thousand points worth of Tyranids, and seen two editions roll out during the process invalidating many of my lovingly crafted models.

People with jobs and families often find it hard to dedicate more than an hour or two a week to their hobbies, and if they want to get their army fielded before the next edition turns the rules upside down on them, they'd better get some help, like pro-painters.

So long as the pro-painter's patron doesn't claim credit for the painting, i don't have a problem with it.

razcalking

05-31-2010, 07:28 AM

Maybe us painting stalin's should come up with our own brand of competition. One where there is no best general. Maybe we should get something going where we just come to play 3-4 fun games (that give you NO score) But your painting, conversions, and basing are judged by other competent painters. Then we can spend a weekend just hangin out talking about painting and stuff. I won't travel for a tourney, but I would for that.

Great idea - the atmosphere at a tourney like that would be outstanding. Awards for Best Painted, Best Converted Army, Best Theme. I'm not all that great of a painter myself, but that is a tourney I also would definitely travel to attend. I wouldn't have a chance of winning, but I'd have a far better chance of having fun.

Again, I don't think anyone is saying that pro-painted armies are inherently bad. It's only bad if you try to profit from someone else's work (e.g. wanting tournament painting points for something you didn't paint).

scadugenga

05-31-2010, 07:54 AM

It's a different kind of fun, one that asks more and rewards on the longer run.

For you, perhaps. Not for others, as is pretty clearly obvious from the posting.

You kids have no discipline.

Clearly, 25 years of martial arts in 5 styles with seminars in 3 others and a nice collection of trophies means I must have no discipline.

Your ignorant statement is frankly, astounding.

Kirsten

05-31-2010, 08:10 AM

I'm with Kahoolin. If prizes are being handed out for painting, then anyone who didn't paint their army shouldn't get a prize.

Depends really, not painting it yourself doesn't magically make it not the best painted. If the painting score affects tournament standings, then yes the player shouldn't get the points if they don't paint themselves. If the painting award has no impact on the gaming, then there is no reason why that army should not win best painted. It wouldn't matter in that instance if the army was painted by the owner, a pro, or ten different people, it can still be the best one there. Outside of tournaments there is no reason whatsoever why you shouldn't buy painted minis. If you don't enjoy painting, go right ahead. At the end of the day, it is your hobby, do what you like with it

JonnyRoxtar

05-31-2010, 01:43 PM

Depends really, not painting it yourself doesn't magically make it not the best painted. If the painting score affects tournament standings, then yes the player shouldn't get the points if they don't paint themselves. If the painting award has no impact on the gaming, then there is no reason why that army should not win best painted. It wouldn't matter in that instance if the army was painted by the owner, a pro, or ten different people, it can still be the best one there. Outside of tournaments there is no reason whatsoever why you shouldn't buy painted minis. If you don't enjoy painting, go right ahead. At the end of the day, it is your hobby, do what you like with it

So youd give out a prize for owning something nice?

This is wrong on so many levels. If the person who painted the army got the prize then great, but how are you ever going to know for sure?

As far as I can remember(it was 2002 when I last entered a GW tournament) there was a question on the entry form asking if you painted your own army. It relies on peoples honesty to judge a painting competition. This is open to abuse but ultimately didnt get you any extra points in the tournament.The scoring for paint jobs gave you 3 points if you used more than 3 colours and every model was based. No extra points for awesomeness. The best army was a separate thing. Id hate to think someone had a best army award on their wall simply because they could afford to hire the best painter.

Melissia

05-31-2010, 01:55 PM

blur blar blah bleerAnd yet, your condescending statement still makes you an ignorant jerk.

You have no damn clue what's going on in the lives of the various people who do not have time or do not enjoy painting. Trying to claim that "oh, they're younger, so they don't have patience" is incredibly douchey and really damned ignorant, and furthermore, insinuating that everyone who doesn't share your views on what's enjoyable must obviously be young is even MORE idiotic.

Kirsten

05-31-2010, 02:09 PM

So youd give out a prize for owning something nice?

This is wrong on so many levels. If the person who painted the army got the prize then great, but how are you ever going to know for sure?

I think you have missed the point here, we are talking about an award for the best painted army, if your army is the best painted, you get the award. Obviously you should acknowledge that you didn't paint it yourself, and pass the award onto the person who did, but it is no different to your own example of ticking a box to say you did it, it all relies on trust. If someone is lying, then that is unfortunate indeed, but it is on their head, how on earth else can you give an award? o.O

Best painted army award goes to the best painted army, there is no other way of doing that prize, otherwise it is the 'randomly given out to a decently painted army' award. I explicitly stated that if the competition is affected by the painting, then it should not count, getting someone else to paint your figures should not allow you a better chance of winning a tournament. As you said yourself, it relies on people being honest. If someone isn't honest, that isn't a fault of the tournament, or the judging.

Let me put it another way, I get together six paintings and hang them on a wall, I ask three people to come in and decide between them which is the best one. It doesn't matter who owns the painting, that has no impact on its' value as a piece of art. Likewise a best painted army award should go to the army that the judges consider to be the best painted.

Obviously there are practical issue, but there are ways around them, like for instance if a person states they did not paint the army themselves, then they have to provide the name and address of the person who did and the award gets posted, for example. But the physical presence of the painter should not be required for the judging.

razcalking

05-31-2010, 02:39 PM

And yet, your condescending statement still makes you an ignorant jerk.

You have no damn clue what's going on in the lives of the various people who do not have time or do not enjoy painting. Trying to claim that "oh, they're younger, so they don't have patience" is incredibly douchey and really damned ignorant, and furthermore, insinuating that everyone who doesn't share your views on what's enjoyable must obviously be young is even MORE idiotic.

You are a waste of time. I will not feed the troll.

Melissia

05-31-2010, 02:42 PM

You are a waste of time. I will not feed the troll.

Try not to starve, then.

razcalking

05-31-2010, 04:56 PM

Try not to starve, then.

No problem - cooking up some feta-stuffed chicken breasts and smoked Gouda broccoli right now. Then I'll probably go paint up some Rune Priests for this Thursday 1000 point night. Good times.

Madness

05-31-2010, 05:34 PM

For you, perhaps. Not for others, as is pretty clearly obvious from the posting.

Clearly, 25 years of martial arts in 5 styles with seminars in 3 others and a nice collection of trophies means I must have no discipline.

Your ignorant statement is frankly, astounding.Again, if you don't want to invest in it, don't, but know that most people wants to play the game with an atmosphere created by spending time and creating an emotional bond to those little toys.

Also, bragging about martial arts? Really? What dojo are you in, the Cobra Kai?

Painting is hard and tiresome it has features of a chore, but it does build character, teach manual skills, and creates something that lasts.

JonnyRoxtar

05-31-2010, 05:56 PM

Let me put it another way, I get together six paintings and hang them on a wall, I ask three people to come in and decide between them which is the best one. It doesn't matter who owns the painting, that has no impact on its' value as a piece of art. Likewise a best painted army award should go to the army that the judges consider to be the best painted.

Obviously there are practical issue, but there are ways around them, like for instance if a person states they did not paint the army themselves, then they have to provide the name and address of the person who did and the award gets posted, for example. But the physical presence of the painter should not be required for the judging.

Youre trying to sell me on an idea that rarely exists anywhere else in any competition. If you arent there to compete then you dont win. The only other place Ive seen this is in backslapping awards ceremonies like the oscars where people cba turning up.

If there was an art competition and 5 painters lost out to someone who brought along the Mona Lisa would that be right?

Kirsten

05-31-2010, 06:02 PM

Youre trying to sell me on an idea that rarely exists anywhere else in any competition. If you arent there to compete then you dont win. The only other place Ive seen this is in backslapping awards ceremonies like the oscars where people cba turning up.

If there was an art competition and 5 painters lost out to someone who brought along the Mona Lisa would that be right?

I am not trying to sell you on anything, I couldn't care less what you think, to be blunt, I am simply seeking to explain my point, otherwise there would be no discussion. Best painted army wins the award, it is incredibly simple, and perfectly reasonable. And yes, the Mona Lisa would win if it were the best painting there. You are bringing the painter into the painting, where in fact the painter is irrelevant. You are not judging the person who did the work, you are judging the work itself.

Kahoolin

05-31-2010, 06:43 PM

You are bringing the painter into the painting, where in fact the painter is irrelevant. You are not judging the person who did the work, you are judging the work itself.Yes but someone has to win the contest. As in a person. A painting can't win a prize. It doesn't have legs to walk to the podium for starters :p. I suppose you could theoretically have a contest where nothing but the best painting is judged, but that is not what a painting contest is. A painting contest, whether in art or warhammer, is a contest to see who the best painter is among those who entered the contest, based on the work they have submitted.

For example, the Archibald portrait prize is the most prestigious painting (as in art) prize in Australia. The winner of the Archibald prize is the artist who painted the best portrait in the competition. Not the owner of the portrait. And the portrait itself certainly doesn't win the Archibald prize. That would be nonsensical.

scadugenga

05-31-2010, 06:46 PM

Also, bragging about martial arts? Really? What dojo are you in, the Cobra Kai?

Nice, troll much?

I was citing an example of discipline that doesn't involve painting.

I guess you missed that part.

Edit: And the ironic part is, I knew you were going to come back with some lame-arse flame, and I should've just ignored you. Perhaps a lack of "discipline" on my part?

At least you haven't started demanding apologies yet. I'll give you that.

BlacknightIII

05-31-2010, 06:46 PM

And yes, the Mona Lisa would win if it were the best painting there. You are bringing the painter into the painting, where in fact the painter is irrelevant. You are not judging the person who did the work, you are judging the work itself.

I agree with Kirsten on this point, its the best painted army not the best army painter. You have to go into the tournement to win the best painted army as your primary goal. Instead of practicing your gaming skill for hours on end and checking out different strategies you would spend hours getting your paint schemes right and checking out different highlighting and shading techinques.

I have done this and I also lost the best painted, it was to professionally painted army. The person who played the army was a professional painter and he didn't win the 40k competition. Instead of complaining that he was a proffesional I asked him for tips and pointers about how to make my armies look better. While winning does make people feel better about themselves you learn a lot more when you lose at something.

Kahoolin

05-31-2010, 06:53 PM

I have done this and I also lost the best painted, it was to professionally painted army. The person who played the army was a professional painter and he didn't win the 40k competition. Instead of complaining that he was a proffesional I asked him for tips and pointers about how to make my armies look better. While winning does make people feel better about themselves you learn a lot more when you lose at something.I think you might have missed the point Blackknight. What you are describing is just someone being a better painter than you are. They still painted and played their own army in the tournament, unless I misunderstood you. What Kirsten is saying is that it would be OK if that guy who beat you at best painter gave his army to someone else to play and then that someone else won the best painter prize for it.

Kahoolin

05-31-2010, 07:02 PM

Also, bragging about martial arts? Really? What dojo are you in, the Cobra Kai?I'm a ninja.

BlacknightIII

05-31-2010, 07:08 PM

Kahoolin

05-31-2010, 07:23 PM

scadugenga

05-31-2010, 07:25 PM

I'm a ninja.

But you aren't a hobby Stalin. Which makes you okay in my book.

As long as you don't go around saying "Move along, I'm a hedge," that is... ;)

BlacknightIII

05-31-2010, 07:33 PM

Kahoolin

05-31-2010, 08:00 PM

If you play to win a physical reward then I guess you would be mad. Commisioned artist have already gotten their physical reward though its the cash you paid them. All they care about (if they are a good artist) is putting out a product that will recieve recognition and in turn earn them more commisions. Now if some punk kid claims credit for all the artists hard work that artist wont recieve the proper recognition he deserves!Oh OK, you only care about whether or not the artist gets recognition. I care about that too . . . but I also care about the injustice of someone getting an award that they don't deserve according to the criteria of the contest.

This is how I see it: If I am a good enough painter to enter a painting contest with a hope of winning, then clearly I am something of an artist. If another skilled artist's work is judged better than mine that's fine, I respect that. Good luck to them, that's what a painting contest is for. If however some kid who can't be bothered to paint (yeah I know, people are busy, etc, let's just assume I'm talking about a lazy rich kid) pays that skilled artist and then enters the contest under his own name, beating me, that is not cool in my book.

To go with my earlier analogy, allowing that would be like holding a contest with all the great painters of history, judging them according to the merits of their work, and then applauding and rewarding the current owner of the winning painting :confused:

BlacknightIII

05-31-2010, 08:12 PM

If however some kid who can't be bothered to paint (yeah I know, people are busy, etc, let's just assume I'm talking about a lazy rich kid) pays that skilled artist and then enters the contest under his own name, beating me, that is not cool in my book.

That goes with what i was saying about the kid stealing credit, most people where I play tend to be honest and will say that they had so and so paint there army if you ask them. In the end though you gotta remember its just a game, if you had fun and learned something during your time at the tourny then to me I think the five dollars or 10 dollars you spent to enter the tourny was worth it.

Kahoolin

05-31-2010, 08:21 PM

In the end though you gotta remember its just a game, if you had fun and learned something during your time at the tourny then to me I think the five dollars or 10 dollars you spent to enter the tourny was worth it.Oh no doubt. In real life if I lost a painting contest to a kid pretending his paid-for paint job was his own work I'd ***** about it to my mates but that's about it. I'd probably think less of the tournament organizers too.

JonnyRoxtar

06-01-2010, 12:47 AM

I am not trying to sell you on anything, I couldn't care less what you think, to be blunt, I am simply seeking to explain my point, otherwise there would be no discussion. Best painted army wins the award, it is incredibly simple, and perfectly reasonable. And yes, the Mona Lisa would win if it were the best painting there. You are bringing the painter into the painting, where in fact the painter is irrelevant. You are not judging the person who did the work, you are judging the work itself.

So in the example of the Mona Lisa, who gets the award?

MajorSoB

06-01-2010, 12:53 AM

Hey, I've been painting armies properly since I was nine. I've repainted the models since then but I still did a decent job. Fact is some people just don't enjoy painting. Others don't enjoy modelling. Some don't even enjoy playing. While I think there is something to be said for being a well-rounded (ha) hobbyist, there is no point getting judgemental about it.

Well said Eldargal! This hobby appeals to many people for many different reasons. No one should be able to tell anyone how they must enjoy their hobby...however...

In tournaments, painting should never come into account, explain to me how a new player just trying to paint should be scored less than a guy who paints over many years.Both to me try really hard, just one has been in longer and tries harder.

Sister Rosette, I disagree, I believe a tournament situation is different since most tournament attempt to measure the embracement of the overall hobby, not just one aspect unless you want to count 'Ard Boyz.

I remember the first GT that I attended. I was pretty damn proud of my sisters army that I brought and expected to do well. I was in for a rude awakening. Not only were there better players in attendance but (gasp!) there were better painters there too! I thought I was good until I saw what some other players had accomplished. Instead of saying that I couldn't paint and griping about painting not being a part of scoring, I observed the armies that were there and made improvements. Over the years I have grown both as a player and a painter. I still hate the pub quiz part of many tournaments but since I know it is often being scored I try to improve upon my overall 40K knowledge. I believe that the overall winner in a tournament should be the best hobbyist in attendance. This person should embrace all aspects of the hobby. Usually there are prizes for best general, etc but if you want to win the top prize, you need to excel in every area not just the ones you like.

Melissa I applaud your efforts to pay for your overpriced and underfunded education. I too worked my way through college and I truly sympathize with you. Painting can be fun though. Instead of grinding out figure after figure alone, I would suggest trying to set up a "paint night" at your local store, gaming place, or friend's home. I have spent many enjoyable evenings with my friends doing this and it helps to make some of the most mundane tasks more palatable. Try it and see if it help?

On a side not has anyone used the Army Painter dip? While its not my favorite method of painting I have seen some decent results with it. It definitely can help in certain situations especially when trying to speed up the painting of a horde army ( nids and orks ).

Kirsten

06-01-2010, 04:11 AM

I understand what she is saying I was describing a situation that I had that was similar, while the professional actually played his army I understand that most of the time it will be someone else who painted the army with some random kid playing it. While the kid might get the award I would ask him who painted his army. If the kid had any respect for the time and effort the artist put into painting the minis who would give credit to whomever he paid (or the company he paid). Now if he tried to claim credit like he earned the reward then I would be annoyed.

If you play to win a physical reward then I guess you would be mad. Commisioned artist have already gotten their physical reward though its the cash you paid them. All they care about (if they are a good artist) is putting out a product that will recieve recognition and in turn earn them more commisions. Now if some punk kid claims credit for all the artists hard work that artist wont recieve the proper recognition he deserves!

This pretty much.

Essentially what we have come down to, is whether or not the award is for the painter, or the army. Personally I believe that it goes to the army. When the judging is taking place, everyone gets kicked out of the hall (at least at the grand tournament I went to) and the judges walk up and down looking at each deployed army. They then decide which one is the best there. It is a decision based on the figures before them, taken in isolation. The judges acknowledge that this army here is the best painted. Then everyone comes back in and the owner of the army gets the award. Now, if the army owner didn't paint it, I would expect him to say so, and pass it on to the person who did, but that is simply down to honesty, and is no different to the current tournament problem of whether or not people are being honest when they tick the 'yes I painted this army' box. At the end of the day I would be rathe unhappy if the judges came to me and said 'here's your best army award, we actually think that army over there is better, but the painter isn't here' I wouldn't want to win it simply because another entry was disqualified.

At the end of the day no system is fool proof, at the tournament I attended there was an orc army set up next to mine. The guy had one of the old large resin forge world shamen statues. The judges came over to him after the awards were made and said 'you might have won, but we didn't like the giant shamen, it is too big.' He looked absolutely gobsmacked and replied 'it is a giant, look at the list.'

Commissar Lewis

06-01-2010, 05:05 AM

As for the people claiming pro painted armies as their own work to win prized at tournaments...

"When outmatched...cheat." - Batman, The Brave and the Bold

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TryingToCatchMeFightingDirty (quotes on that page for ref)

Now I DO NOT CONDONE cheating at a tournament; that's pretty low. But I can understand why people would do it. Doesn't make it any less of a move only pulled by phallic instruments, but understandable.

Plus who doesn't want to win Batman-style?

DarkLink

06-01-2010, 10:07 AM

Sister Rosette, I disagree, I believe a tournament situation is different since most tournament attempt to measure the embracement of the overall hobby, not just one aspect unless you want to count 'Ard Boyz.

A tournament lets you play the game, and see who's the best player. A painting contest lets you see who's the best painter.

Do not mix the two up. No not merge them together. There is absolutely no reason to shove the scores together.

Now, you can have a painting contest and a tournament at the same time. But do not make the mistake of thinking it's a good idea to combine the scores. Keep the scores (and the prizes) separate.

Lerra

06-01-2010, 12:48 PM

To me, the game is a game, but painting is an art. It's too subjective to fairly score.

It would be like trying to agree on scores for music from different genres. I don't like the same music as the hobbyist down the street, and I don't expect us to have the same views on what's a cool conversion and what's overdone, etc.

If you want to have a painting-only competition, that's great. Everyone enters a painting competition knowing that the scoring system is opinion-based. That opinion shouldn't carry over to the rest of the tournament, though, because inevitably some people will be penalized because their style does not mesh well with the judge's.

CitizenZero

06-01-2010, 01:40 PM

I got about 6 pages in before I got bored with what I consider the most tedious part of the hobby ;)

I love to paint, it's actually the one thing that I have the most time for nowadays due to my weird schedule. (Not many friends up for a game around 3a.m.) I also love to play the game, it's why I got into the hobby in the first place. I feel that the games which are the most enjoyable consist of 2 fully-painted armies.

I am not so dogmatic as to decree one way or another on how tournaments should be run. Aren't there really three types of competitions anyways?

1) 'Ardboyz style...where painting doesn't matter.
2) GT Style...where there is a combination of gaming and painting scores.
3) Painting competitions...where you paint...competitively.

So with something for everyone, what is the issue again?

Oh, and yes...to the original poster: I applaud your honesty, but if we were in a tournament that took painting scores into account I would have to give you a 0 in that category. You seem like a genuinely upstanding person, so I would be more than happy to play a fun game with you anytime! Especially because I would rather play against a fully painted army then one that wasn't!

CitizenZero

06-01-2010, 01:44 PM

A tournament lets you play the game, and see who's the best player. A painting contest lets you see who's the best painter.

Do not mix the two up. No not merge them together. There is absolutely no reason to shove the scores together.

Now, you can have a painting contest and a tournament at the same time. But do not make the mistake of thinking it's a good idea to combine the scores. Keep the scores (and the prizes) separate.Why not combine the two? If they can do it in the Olypmics, why not in Warhammer? Miniature Wargaming is more than just a game to some of us...it's a complete hobby, why shouldn't we be able to test the entire breadth of our abilities against one another to crown an overall champion?

BuFFo

06-01-2010, 01:55 PM

Sister Rosette, I disagree, I believe a tournament situation is different since most tournament attempt to measure the embracement of the overall hobby, not just one aspect unless you want to count 'Ard Boyz.

I disagree with your view.

If I attend a tournament to play, painting should NOT be involved. If I attend a tournament for painting, winning objects should NOT be involved.

Lets put it this way... For every tournament where there was a paiting score, how many people won thier games, but lost over all because they weren't born painters? Or had two jobs? Kids?

Now, if you want to have it one, way, why not the other?

For the Golden Demon, why aren't the models judges on combat effectiveness? If I paint a space marine perfectly, but if someone else submitted a Demon Prince decked out with wargear, but painted like crap, why wouldn't he get a score over me because his model could kill mine in combat?

It seems people are okay with FORCING painting scores on players who just want to play the game, but we never force playing the game on painters.

In a perfect world, the tournament scene would be just two sides; Golden Demon and 'Ard Boyz. None of this soft score comp crap where your skill is out weighed by limited opinions of strangers.

Now, as a compromise, you could have both a Painting and Gaming tournament going on at the same time, so the army you play with also contains a model or models that you submit into a painting contest. I think this would be best, instead of forcing painting on people with no artistic skill.

scadugenga

06-01-2010, 08:14 PM

Ideally, what I would like to see for a tournament (random run-of-the-mill type) would be a "best painted" award that is separate from the actual tournament scoring. Winning the tournament has nothing to do with how well your painted army looks, and winning the painting award has nothing to do with your win/loss ratio.

And for the GT's, it would be an "all up" where painting is included in the overall score to make it a true expression of "the hobby as a whole," with the caveat that pro-painted armies are excluded from the painting score, and must be divulged prior to tourney start if the army was self-painted or not. Cheaters would forfeit any points/awards and be banned from further competition for "x" period of time.

Kind of like doping in professional sports.

BuFFo

06-01-2010, 09:36 PM

And for the GT's, it would be an "all up" where painting is included in the overall score to make it a true expression of "the hobby as a whole," with the caveat that pro-painted armies are excluded from the painting score, and must be divulged prior to tourney start if the army was self-painted or not. Cheaters would forfeit any points/awards and be banned from further competition for "x" period of time.

I would agree to this.

MajorSoB

06-01-2010, 10:03 PM

1) 'Ardboyz style...where painting doesn't matter.
2) GT Style...where there is a combination of gaming and painting scores.
3) Painting competitions...where you paint...competitively.

So with something for everyone, what is the issue again?

Excellent analysis! The answer to your question is quite simple, most people will argue against a certain scoring category in a tournament for one reason alone, and it is that they usually are not very good in that category so they don't want to be scored in it.

Painting scores are not that hard to do in a tournament. Matrix usually look like this:

1) Is the army assembled and primed? (1 point)
2) Does the army have three colors? (1 point)
3) Is it based? (1 point)
4) ...etc

Painting scores are usually pretty straightforward if you have put forth some effort. Generally there are only a few points given to some type of "WOW" factor but the bulk of the score usually comes from a checklist. Even the most uncreative people can follow the format and get decent results. GW makes washes, they show you how to dry brush on their site as well as give you tips in White Dwarf each month. Like I said Army Painter works as well too. I have heard the excuses but rarely does it ever come down to anything more than lack of effort and commitment. You can dip and drybrush a Nid army in a weekend ( I have seen it done!).

Again I could care less if you paint your army or not, that is your own personal choice. What I believe if that if you enter a tournament where you know painting is being scored, paint your own models or accept the outcome of the scoring.

I do applaud the original poster for his honesty and truthfulness but I do not believe the effort to buy painted models equates to that which is used to create them. Painting is part of this hobby, but chess and Magic have no painting elements in their games so there are always alternatives...