Night Spinner?

[The Imperator]

Do you think the eldar night spinner is worth it?

i have been thinking on buing it and it will be the first eldar theing i have bought in a year.

what are your thoughts for tactics?

[Dingareth]

No, not at all.

That 72 inch range is great though, you may almost be able to reach the table from its place on the shelf.

[DarkLink]

No, not at all.

That 72 inch range is great though, you may almost be able to reach the table from its place on the shelf.

I think everyone else I've seen here would disagree with this:p. This thread (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=7398&page=4) has all sorts of enthusiasm for the thing.


Virtually everyone thinks the thing's awesome. Playtest it a few times first, though.

[Lemt]

I think it is good, but not as a direct swap for Fire Prisms. If you want to play Nightspinners, you need to tailor your list for it to work. Here's an example 2k list I just made up:

HQ
Autarch with Fusion Gun
Farseer with Runes of Warding, Doom, Guide, Singing Spear

ELITES
6 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent with TL Brightlance
5 Wraithguard, Warlock with Conceal
Wave Serpent with TL Brightlance

TROOPS
6 Guardian Jetbikes with 2 Shuriken Cannons
6 Guardian Jetbikes with 2 Shuriken Cannons
10 Dire Avengers, Exarch with BladeStorm and extra Shuriken Catapult
Wave Serpent with TL Bright Lance
10 Dire Avengers, Exarch with BladeStorm and extra Shuriken Catapult
Wave Serpent with TL Bright Lance

HS
Nightspinner
Nightspinner
Nightspinner

As you see, Nightspinners are soft counters for enemy vehicles, harder on enemy troops as dangerous terrain scales with horde size. Bright Lances, Wraithguard and Firedragons deal with armored vehicles nicely, while the jetbikes can take care of softer targets. The Autarch is OK in higher point games, since Eldar tend to use reserves quite a lot.

[Old_Paladin]

I think it could be useful.
It will be very good against infantry:
It's accurate with a twin linked large blast. It will ignore some cover.
Rending means that it can even get through the best armour saves.

It will be surprisingly good against vehicles. Barrage means it hits side armour, and rending means you can get up to a 15 for penatration; even though you always take the -1 on the table.

Don't forget the movement affecting special rule. With so many melee and close range firefight armies (melta weapons, shorter range assault weapons, multiple template units, etc.), the ability to slow and even harm any type of unit or vehicle is very useful.

[Dingareth]

I think everyone else I've seen here would disagree with this:p. This thread (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=7398&page=4) has all sorts of enthusiasm for the thing.


Virtually everyone thinks the thing's awesome. Playtest it a few times first, though.

Yeah, and because everything that's popular is THE BEST THING EVER!!!!! right? This forum has a giant hard on for Orks last time I checked, so it just makes sense that people would be calling the Night Spinner over powered.

The only tactics that I could think of for it would be to shoot things that move a lot. Well, Eldar is pretty fast as is, so if I get hit with this, I'll just sit still for a turn... It's not like anything you'd be shooting at would catch up with the Eldar moving through terrain, so no use risking the dangerous test. Also, what did the Eldar army need? Here's a hint it's not more S6 weapons and it's definitely not more Heavy Support choices.

If it was Fast Attack, I'd be all over this, but as it stands, it's half decent at killing troops, and pretty terrible at killing tanks. I'd rather just stick to a Prism which is good at doing both.

[DarkLink]

The only tactics that I could think of for it would be to shoot things that move a lot.

So... just about everything in the game except, say Devestator squads and the like:p?



Well, Eldar is pretty fast as is, so if I get hit with this, I'll just sit still for a turn...

Any ork horde or similar unit advancing towards you that, well, isn't for another turn is a valuable thing for an eldar player.




And, of course, there's the whole "Str 6 rending large blast". Sure, it's not great against vehicles. But that'll put a lot of hurt on most infantry units in the game.

[Dingareth]

Exactly. It'll hurt infantry. It's redundant in the Eldar army. Besides Fire Dragons, Fire Prisms are you best bet for taking down tanks at range, and by taking a Night Spinner, you're taking away from that ability.

[Freefall945]

Well, Eldar is pretty fast as is, so if I get hit with this, I'll just sit still for a turn...

The text for the Nightspinner suggests you take the Difficult and Dangerous terrain tests the next time you move for any reason. You can sit still for as many turns as you like - at some point you'll have to come to terms with the fact that you're covered with monofilament murder mesh.

[Old_Paladin]

Yeah... so if I get hit with this, I'll just sit still for a turn...

Except that the wording isn't place a marker on the unit and it counts and dangerous terrain in its next movement phase, it's "dangerous terrain the next time it moves."
That means it will stay on that unit until the end of the game (or until it finally moves).
It also means any movement, not just movement phase movement. Charge the unit, if they reposition they take the test, flee or consolodate and they take the test.

Even against vehicles it's not a bad choice.
Lets look at it vs. a Prism; the targets: one BA Baal pred with several rhino's close by.
The Prism will only hit one target, strength 9 against AV 13 (or AV 11 if it scatters to a secondary target).
The spinner might hit three targets; but would hit any target at AV 11. Say it hits the pred with the hole and just manages to nick two rhinos. That's a strength 6 (with rending) vs. AV 11 and two strength 3 (with rending) vs. AV 11. But it's also three vehicles that will count as being in dangerous terrain.
The Prism has a 4+ chance of doing something. The Spinner has a 5+ against it's main target and 2/9th chance of doing something against it's secondary targets. Then there is the 50% chance of immobilizing at least a single vehicle whenever those vehicles move.

And if vehicles are such priority targets; why aren't you taking Serpants with twin-linked missles or lances (the lances are often better against armour anyways, then a Prism cannon).

[Nikephoros]

And, of course, there's the whole "Str 6 rending large blast". Sure, it's not great against vehicles. But that'll put a lot of hurt on most infantry units in the game.

Eldar already kill un-meched infantry really easily. What they need is a reliable way to kill mass Chimera and mass Razorbacks/Rhinos.

[Lemt]

Eldar already kill un-meched infantry really easily. What they need is a reliable way to kill mass Chimera and mass Razorbacks/Rhinos.

Chimeras have side armor 10, so Nightspinners can take them down, even with no AP. They're not so good against higher armor, true, but hey're not that bad either. Just make a balanced army that has anti-tank in other FOC slots (Wave Serpents with TL-Brightlances, for example). And IMHO eldar have always had trouble versus Horde, and this is a great addition against them.
If you really want Fire Prisms, go for a 2-1 or 1-2 split so you get the best of both worlds.

[Nikephoros]

Chimeras have side armor 10, so Nightspinners can take them down, even with no AP. They're not so good against higher armor, true, but hey're not that bad either. Just make a balanced army that has anti-tank in other FOC slots (Wave Serpents with TL-Brightlances, for example). And IMHO eldar have always had trouble versus Horde, and this is a great addition against them.
If you really want Fire Prisms, go for a 2-1 or 1-2 split so you get the best of both worlds.

If your plan to beat good IG mech lists is "hit the side armor" you might as well not even waste your time playing. Any plan that counts on your opponent to be bad/dumb is doomed from the start.

And what I think you're missing is that the Fire Prism is already the best of both worlds. The Nightspinner is redundant and nicheless.

[eldargal]

The new nightspinner is possibly the best anti-horde boost Eldar have had in the fifteen years I've been playing them. Sure you can use this to take down vehicles, but I think Fire Dragons in transports will do a better job of that. Nightspinners will mince horde armies, if you don't play horde armies hten obviously it won't be a good choice for you. I do, and this is a brilliant unit as far as I am concerned.


And what I think you're missing is that the Fire Prism is already the best of both worlds. The Nightspinner is redundant and nicheless.

[Old_Paladin]

If your plan to beat good IG mech lists is "hit the side armor" you might as well not even waste your time playing. Any plan that counts on your opponent to be bad/dumb is doomed from the start.

You know that as a barrage weapon, the Spinner main weapon always hits side armour?
The IG player doesn't need to make "bad/dumb" moves, the barrage of razor-mesh is simply hitting side armour no matter where either unit is facing; and with a large blast and rending, you have a chance to hit and damage several targets.
Plus the more vehicles you touch, the more danagerous terrain tests you can force.


Please, read the rules before you sarcastically attack another poster; who posted a correct and legitimate point.

[The Imperator]

Thanks for all the advice everyone!

my decision is........... I am going to buy one!!!:D

[blackjack]

So a bunch of GW game desighners are sitting around the table deciding what to do with the death spinner and one of them goes.

"You know know how over powered foot sloggers and jump packs are these days, lets make a vechicle with a weapon that F*cks them over and slows them down."

The other GW guys go.

"Yea! sounds great, god knows mech armies need a leg up in 40k!"

[Nikephoros]

You know that as a barrage weapon, the Spinner main weapon always hits side armour?
The IG player doesn't need to make "bad/dumb" moves, the barrage of razor-mesh is simply hitting side armour no matter where either unit is facing; and with a large blast and rending, you have a chance to hit and damage several targets.
Plus the more vehicles you touch, the more danagerous terrain tests you can force.


Please, read the rules before you sarcastically attack another poster; who posted a correct and legitimate point.

I'll give you that point, but its still horrible. Str 6 isn't even all that impressive vs. av10. My point still stands, Eldar needed a way to take out Chimeras and Rhinos reliably, not kill troops. This isn't it.

You bring it to kill hordes. Thats the one use. Vs. a horde army its a 8/10 in effectiveness. Vs mech its a 3/10. Or you can take a Fireprism which is 7/10 vs hordes and 7/10 vs mech. It just isn't useful.

Or maybe I'm wrong and I'll see some of your uber Nightspinner lists dominating the remaining rounds of 'Ard Boyz.

[Bigred]

OK, no theoryhammer for me, but tabletop experience.

Last Night I took a pair of Fireprisms supported by a Nightspinner with my standard mechanized Scorpions - foot Guardians army.

The opponent was Blood Angels who were harrassed during the early game by the Spinner constantly dropping its template on any group of vehicles (hitting multiple vehicles per template). The direct damage is negligable, so don't even count on it. The real power was the ease of getting even a millimeter of template on a vehicle to give it a "hit token".

After 2 Blood Angels vehicles were left high and dry sitting uselessly in their deployment zone, the Marine player made the Spinner a priority target and nailed it with a deepstriking melta squad.

Still a good performance, and one that broke holes in the Marine battleline that I was able to exploit to pull off a win. I will probably consider a single one Night Spinner a staple of any mech list for a while. It was worth noting that the squads of disabled transports were easy meat for the supporting Prisms once they were forced to huff it to have any impact on the battle.

[Dionysus]

Barrage means it hits side armour

A little off topic, but where in the rules does it say this?

[Old_Paladin]

A little off topic, but where in the rules does it say this?

Page 60

[ashnaile]

Nah, the night spinner is crap, granted prisms arent that much better, as you basically need to take two to have semi reliable anti tank, and anti horde is not something my armies ever seem to be lacking. For antitank i have 2 serpents with fire dragons, or the unholy amount of s6 fire i already carry (sorry spinner, dont need more s6).

For anti infantry theres the load of EMLs or jetseer councils etc, the options the spinner brings to the table arent worth it for the cost and foc selection.

The effect is cool, and i like that it persists rather than fade on next turn, but for my heavy slots if i take anything itll be falcons for DAVU.

For anti infantry theres the load of EMLs or jetseer councils etc, the options the spinner brings to the table arent worth it for the cost and foc selection.

[davel]

It is worth mentioning that certain armies can through use of transports and upgrades can reduce the pinn effect.
last week I played an ork opponent this week we have agreed to swap armies. ( he now has the night spinner option, doh) I'm countering this with battlewagons with reinforced rams and grot riggers.
this does thin the horde (due to points on transports) how ever it's points he can't easily negate.

if the 3 spinner force becomes popular expect to see more of this.

If he does opt for spinners I'll let you know the out come.

Dave l

[Cyndr]

As Bigred has mentioned already, I'm not convinced that you should be relying on the Nightspinner to deal direct damage to your opponent. Against hordes, even the S6 Rending Lg. Blast isn't what attracts me to adding one of these to my list. It's the Dangerous Terrain test that the horde MUST take at some point (or they can stand still for the rest of the game while my army shoots them to death).

On a similar note: The one thing that aggravates me more than anything is not being able to get my transports full of troops to where I need them to be on the battle field. If you can force your enemy to first take the initial hit from the weapon (possibly multiple vehicles) and then when they move, you have yet another chance to disable the vehicle.

Whats not to like? As for not having a niche... I'm not sure about that. It seems like it is a Support HS choice. Stopping key vehicles, breaking enemy lines up (even if it is indirectly by a dangerous terrain test), and dealing damage to marauding hordes. I don't see myself fielding 3 in a game, but 1 could definitely support a defensive army quite a bit.

[dvs1]

I have a feeling dual night spinners will be making many appearances in mechdar lists to come. The possibilities it opens up far outweighs its use of those valuable heavy slots. Almost anything you need transported in a falcon can do just as well in a wave serpent. Personally, I prefer serpents because of both their force shield, and the twin linked goodness of its main weapon. Yeah I know, they don't carry harlies, but thats what you have banshees, scorps, and seer councils for. Prisms are the hardest thing to lose, but the ability to force difficult/dangerous terrain checks in a tank shock heavy army has a quality all its own. The threat of hitting multiple units simultaneously may force an opponent to split his army up making it easier for you mech units to refuse a flank, etc... anything that actually dies to the spinner itself is just gravy.

[gARIGON]

Isn't the str of the weapon halved if the center of the blast template is not covering the vehicle? As in, if the Nightspinner is hitting multiple vehices or at least clipping them, the strength is reduced to 3?

[DarkLink]

Yes, but the value is that all of those vehicles will have to take dangerous terrain tests the next time they move.

Plus, with rending, Str 3 can still hurt up to AV 12.

[Tynskel]

Yes, but the value is that all of those vehicles will have to take dangerous terrain tests the next time they move.

Plus, with rending, Str 3 can still hurt up to AV 12.

Not only that, most guard armies use the Chimera Chassie. Side Armor 10 (because Night Spinner is a Barrage Weapon), which, if rend on Str 3, you are auto glancing. Not only do they have to take Dangerous terrain, but you can make them not shoot-- encouraging them to move.

[Cyndr]

If you are using this new unit for direct damage, I think you might want to rethink how and why it is shooting at specific targets. I'm not going to be taking one because I want it to start popping everything with armor plating (fire prism). I'm going to be taking it to force a reaction\risk from my enemy, and possibly a mistake. If I happen to pop a transport or something, that's just a cherry on top.

[Bigred]

OK, after several more NightSpinner games under by belt (featuring in future BoLS video batreps), I have further refined my view on the tank.

This tank gives the Eldar something previously unseen, a very long range stand-off generator of mistakes and snafus on the enemy's battleplans.

The Night Spinner is unable to reliably geneate a set amount of damage exactly where you need it , when you need it. If you need that type of damage, the Prism is your tank. What the Spinner WILL do over the course of a 5-7 turn game with constant long range bombardments is give you 1 or 2 unexpected results which will just screw up the enemy's battle plans. A squad that needed to get some where will get unlucky and lose members, and roll horribly on the difficult terrain roll, assault troops will miss a certain assault, or much more commonly, a critical tank or transport will be immobilized. Even more common is the paralyzing effect the "spinnered" tokens have on players, as you can easily gum up half their battle line with them, and its amazing how often players will just sit there, giving you the initiative instead of taking the dangerous checks on larger infantry squads to keep them in the game.

I think the Spinner has to be mated with a fast moving maneuver army (falcons, or bikes, vypers, spiders, or anything else you desire). The key, is that you have to have an army mobile enough to identify the sudden opportunities the Spinner will provide and punish the enemy, taking advantage of his sudden hamstrung parts of the battlefield.

If you are running a more static gunline type of footdar list, I think there are better alternatives.

The critical skill is identfying "nexuses" of units where a single blast template will affect multiple units per shot, and hit them turn after turn, attempting to delay as many units as possible over the game. The next thing to remember is the twin linked, which makes the chances of rolling a hit on the scatter pretty high.

Also, dont forget there are ways of tiggering involuntary motion to activate the dangerous terrain rolls on affected units such as tankshocking them, or barely charging them, resulting in the countercharge moves.

[gARIGON]

Not only that, most guard armies use the Chimera Chassie. Side Armor 10 (because Night Spinner is a Barrage Weapon), which, if rend on Str 3, you are auto glancing. Not only do they have to take Dangerous terrain, but you can make them not shoot-- encouraging them to move.

In this example, the str 3 needs to have a 6 rolled in order to claim another d6 for glancing / penetrating, right? Any roll of less than 6 would be useless added to the half strength of the weapon. Am I working this out correctly? I hadn't considered the Night Spinner's use agaist vehicles, but that is largely down to my lack of understanding of rending vs vehices.

Normally, I use shuriken cannons to take down vehciles from the rear ;0

[DarkLink]

Rending is str+d6, and if you roll a 6 you get another D3.


So if you roll a 6, you then add 1-3. This give anywhere from 10-12, meaning if you rend, you auto glance and have a 66% chance of penetrating. If you rend. Either way, though, if you do rend, you will cause a damage result.

Plus, the next time the vehicle moves it will have to take a dangerous terrain test. So if you roll a 6, or your opponent rolls a 1, you do damage. That's 33% chance of damage, per vehicle you hit. That's pretty good. If you can hit 2-3 vehicles per turn, odds are very good you will cause damage to something. And annoy the heck out of your opponent.