View Full Version : What ever happened to the Primarchs
Majorcrash
05-26-2010, 07:45 AM
I was listening to the book on CD "Dark king / lighting tower" and I started to wonder if all the primarchs are accounted for. The stories of how a few died is know but is that the case for all of them. So I decided to ask around and see if anyone has definitive proof of what happened to them all.
1st legion Dark Angels Lionel Johnson- recovering in stasis on the Rock
2nd Legion NO RECORD REMAINS
3rd Legion Emperors Children Fulgrim- Daemon Prince in Eye of Terror
4th Legion Iron Warriors Perturabo- fate unknown
5th Legion White Scars Jaghatai Khan- i believe lost in Malestrom?
6th Legion Space Wolves Leman Russ- Chasing off into Eye of Terror
7th Legion Imperial Fist Rogal Dorn- fate unknown
8th Legion Night Lords Konrad Curze- Killed by assassin
9th Legion Blood Angels Sanguinius- Killed by Horus
10th Legion Iron Hands Ferrus Manus- fate unknown
11th Legion NO RECORD REMAINS
12th Legion World Eaters Angron- Daemon Prince in Eye of Terror
13th Legion Ultramarines Roboute Guilliman- fate unknown
14th Legion Death Guard Mortarion- Daemon Prince in Eye of Terror
15th Legion Thousand Sons Magnus the Red- Daemon Prince in Eye of Terror
16th Legion Luna Wolves Horus Lupercal- Killed by the Emperor
17th Legion Word Bearers Lorgar- Daemon Prince?
18th Legion Salamanders Vulkan- Killed by Horus?
19th Legion Raven Guard Corax- fate unknown
20th Legion Alpha Legion Alpharius 1 & 2 Both fates unknown
so out of 21 Primarchs, we know what happened to nine? Is it just me but if all the Primarchs were so god like and only the "bad ones" are left why havent they just taken over.
wittdooley
05-26-2010, 08:00 AM
Ferrus Manus was killed by Fulgrim at Isstvan.
Guilliman is in stasis on Macragge with a fatal wound.
Lorgar is a Demon Prince.
Dorn is dead, his skeletal hand is now a chapter relic.
Perturabo is a Demon Prince.
Good chance either Alpharius or Omegon is dead, Killed by Guilliman.
Only Corax and Vulkan are unaccounted for; the Salamanders are looking for him presently in Nick Kyme's books.
Majorcrash
05-26-2010, 08:58 AM
Ferrus Manus was killed by Fulgrim at Isstvan.
Guilliman is in stasis on Macragge with a fatal wound. never heard this, I had read somewhere a long time ago that he was the only Primarch to die of old age.
Lorgar is a Demon Prince. In the current Dark Apostle Series they hint at this but thats the only mention I ever heard.
Dorn is dead, his skeletal hand is now a chapter relic. Who or what killed him, he survives the Hersey!
Perturabo is a Demon Prince. Also never heard this before. As a matter of fact after the Hersey he's not mentioned again.
Good chance either Alpharius or Omegon is dead, Killed by Guilliman. Again this is new, I had read a blog somewhere that proposed that the Emperor is really one of these?
Only Corax and Vulkan are unaccounted for; the Salamanders are looking for him presently in Nick Kyme's books. I thought that Vulkan dies on Istavan after being killed by Horus?
wittdooley
05-26-2010, 09:03 AM
I thought that Vulkan dies on Istavan after being killed by Horus?
Not that we know of. There really hasn't been anything written regarding the Salamanders fate at Isstvan, other than the fact that we know there was a fair amount of wholesale slaughter.
The first info we really got on Corax was in Raven's Flight. I sincerely hope, and expect, that we'll find out about them sooner or later, at least in short story form, as the Salamanders are the chapter that have been least represented in the Horus Heresy thusfar.
Gotthammer
05-26-2010, 09:40 AM
never heard this, I had read somewhere a long time ago that he was the only Primarch to die of old age.
It's in the current codex, I think the one before, the Ultramarine Novels, and a few other things.
In the current Dark Apostle Series they hint at this but thats the only mention I ever heard.
I think Dark Creed is the one that says it, but it's the only reference to him and all the other Primarchs mostly just hang around the Eye anyway.
Who or what killed him, he survives the Hersey!
He was killed boarding a Chaos battleship, the Sword of Sacralidge, part of a Black Crusade - it's never clearly said who or what kills him though. He was heavily outnumbered and attacked only as it was too good an opportunity to hit the fleet before it was fully ready. He 'died' first in the novel Space Marine (his skeletal hands are mentioned as being relics), and it was expanded upon in an Index Astartes.
Also never heard this before. As a matter of fact after the Hersey he's not mentioned again.
He's sulking on Mendregard, mentioned in Black Sky, Dead Sun and Storm of Iron.
Good chance either Alpharius or Omegon is dead, Killed by Guilliman. Again this is new, I had read a blog somewhere that proposed that the Emperor is really one of these?
It's in one of the later Index Astartes.
Sitnam
05-26-2010, 10:23 AM
for a tally:
Chaos Primarchs
Horus - Dead
Nighthaunter - Dead
Peturarbo- Daemon Prince
Lorgar- Daemon Prince
Angron - Daemon Prince
Fulgrim - Daemon Prince
Mangus the Red - Daemon Prince
Mortarion - Daemon Prince
The Hydra Bros- One possibly dead, others fate unknown. Due to nature of Alpha Legion, I doubt they would of became DP's. I consider these two one and the same so I coutn them as .5
Thats 2.5 dead, .5 unknown, and 6 daemon princes
Loyalist Primarchs
Sanguinus - Killed during heresy
Ferrus Manus - Killed during heresy
Gulliman - Mortally wounded post-heresy
Dorn - Killed post-heresy
Russ - (Wolf Time) Will return for the End of Times
Corax - Left on a course to the EoT, last recorded words were 'Never More'. Not sure what that means, but possibly a return for the End of Time.
Vulkan - He was around post heresy as he opposed the splitting up of the Legions. He to will return at the End of Times
Jaghatai Khan - Disapeared fighting the Dark Eldar. Possibly dead, possibly End of Times
Lion El'Jonson - Chilling on the Rock. We can maybe Assume End of Times
That Makes 3 dead, 1 unknown (Can Gulliman recover?), and 5 End of Times.
So for the final battle I think the possibility of the Daemon princes and the End Timer's could possibily return. Given GW's habit of even splitting the forces of Chaos and Loyalsits marines, I would disbelieve if Gulliman does recover just to make it an even six on six. Not that they would ever run such a scenario, but thats my theory.
And who knows if the dead ones are truly dead? The dead loyalsits could of had their souls combine with the Emperors as they passed away, whilst the traitors souls could be trapped in waiting by the Chaos Gods.
Baron Spikey
05-26-2010, 03:58 PM
Traitors
Horus: Killed by the Empeor
Nighthaunter: Killed by a Callidus Assassin (Suicide really because he allowed her to kill him)
Peturarbo: Became a Daemon Prince after the Iron Cage incident shortly after the Scouring
Lorgar: Daemon Prince
Angron: Daemon Prince
Fulgrim: Daemon Prince/Possessed- only Primarch who's not a Primarch
Mangus the Red: Daemon Prince
Mortarion: Daemon Prince
Alpharius/Omegon: The info suggesting they're dead was provided by an Inquisitordiscovered to actually be working for the Alpha Legion, so veracity of documents dubious.
Loyalists
Sanguinus: Killed during Heresy by Horus
Ferrus Manus: Killed during heresy by Fulgrim
Gulliman: Killed post-Heresy by Fulgrim, body put into stasis and transported to Macragge
Dorn: Killed post-heresy by Chaos Space Marines after boarding a Chaos Battleship during the 1st Black Crusade.
Russ: Journeyed into the Eye of Terror, possibly alive, most likely dead.
Corax: Left on a course to the EoT, even more likely than Russ to be dead.
Vulkan: Unknown, likely deceased.
Jaghatai Khan: Disapeared into the Webway fighting the Dark Eldar. Possibly dead, possibly End of Times
Lion El'Jonson: Asleep deep in the the Rock unknown to the DA.
mysterex
05-27-2010, 01:54 AM
I have a feeling that Fulgrim is rumoured to have died fighting CSM in the eye - sorry can't recall the source.
Baron Spikey
05-27-2010, 05:47 AM
Nope Fulgrim is a Daemon Prince who rules over a Daemon World dedicated to Slaanesh in the Eye of Terror.
Artein
05-27-2010, 09:26 AM
Fulgrim does not rule over anything. He's possessed by a daemon of Slaanesh.
Gotthammer
05-27-2010, 10:33 AM
Ok then - "Fulgrim" is a Daemon Prince who rules over a Daemon World dedicated to Slaanesh in the Eye of Terror.
Sitnam
05-27-2010, 11:21 AM
Doesn't matter to the imperium. It wouldn't matter if he retook control of his body, drove a stake through abbadons heart, revived the Big E, chokeslammed the Ctan, and stabbed himself in the face a thousand times. He's a traitor, possesion or not. He was weak enough to have his soul dominated by Chaos.The circumstances matter little to the imperium
Legoklods
05-31-2010, 12:03 PM
Dorn was killed in the 1st great crusade... but was that by Abaddon personally?
I mean, thats very well done of him if thats the case.
Legoklods
05-31-2010, 12:11 PM
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Primarch
there.
That should settle this...
Force21
06-02-2010, 12:46 AM
I thought Angron was banished by a Grey Knight Grand Master or Brother Captain...
hmm... not sure...going to have to look it up.
AirHorse
06-02-2010, 04:17 AM
Yeah but hes a daemon now so he will turn up every so often as tends to happen with their kind.
And Legoklods, I think you mean the black crusade :P
MarneusCalgar
06-04-2010, 02:22 PM
The REAL question is...
Will we someday know what happened to the 2nd and 11th Legions or it will be like the 2 blue magicians of the Istari that came from the West with the Istari Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast on LOTR??
Just_Me
06-06-2010, 10:13 AM
The REAL question is...
Will we someday know what happened to the 2nd and 11th Legions or it will be like the 2 blue magicians of the Istari that came from the West with the Istari Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast on LOTR??
First, excellent analogy :D.
Second, my impression is that we will never get the specifics, but I could be wrong, the Horus Heresy series is continually breaking rules we thought had governed what we were and weren't allowed to know about the 40k universe.
Finally, there was one interesting little blurb in Index Astartes years ago about Rogal Dorn's fate. It established that he was the last of the loyalist Primarchs still actively serving the Imperium, and told the same basic story about the boarding action on the Sword of Sacrilege and his death there, but then went on to say that is was also rumored that he survived and retreated from the public eye to attend upon the Emperor directly. What with the constant rewriting of fluff, and resurrection of old fluff it is difficult to say whether this has any bearing on the canon, but it is interesting nonetheless.
Capn Stoogey
06-08-2010, 12:48 AM
Gulliman: Killed post-Heresy by Fulgrim, body put into stasis and transported to Macragge
Where did you read his? I knew he was mortally wounded and in stasis, but would like to know how it happened, cheers.
Baron Spikey
06-08-2010, 05:38 AM
Gulliman: Killed post-Heresy by Fulgrim, body put into stasis and transported to Macragge
Where did you read his? I knew he was mortally wounded and in stasis, but would like to know how it happened, cheers.
The Ultramarines Index Astartes article- the Ultramarines were fighting the Emperor's Children and Guilliman was separated from his troops as they came upon the transfigured Fulgrim, a cloud of musk masking the 2 Primarchs as they closed on each other. When the musk cleared Fulgrim had gone and Guilliman was on the floor with a single slash across his throat that wouldn't heal. The poisons from Fulgrim's blade (commonly believed to be the anathame that laid low Horus) raged through Guilliman's body and as he died the Apothecaries put his body into stasis for transport back to Macragge.
thelonegrif
06-25-2010, 01:29 PM
i actually read some where that his people who have seen him in stasis believe his wound is starting to heal
Baron Spikey
06-25-2010, 04:29 PM
Some peope not his people, it's mainly pilgrims who believe he's healing despite the obvious impossibility- the Ultramarines themselves don't think he's healing.
mr1029384756
09-20-2010, 03:59 AM
Doesn't matter to the imperium. It wouldn't matter if he retook control of his body, drove a stake through abbadons heart, revived the Big E, chokeslammed the Ctan, and stabbed himself in the face a thousand times. He's a traitor, possesion or not. He was weak enough to have his soul dominated by Chaos.The circumstances matter little to the imperium
Not to mention that he killed Ferrus, the Iron Hands' Primarch. He decap-ed his bro...in plain sight of everyone on Istivaan V...there's no redemption for that.
mr1029384756
09-20-2010, 04:06 AM
First, excellent analogy :D.
Second, my impression is that we will never get the specifics, but I could be wrong, the Horus Heresy series is continually breaking rules we thought had governed what we were and weren't allowed to know about the 40k universe.
Finally, there was one interesting little blurb in Index Astartes years ago about Rogal Dorn's fate. It established that he was the last of the loyalist Primarchs still actively serving the Imperium, and told the same basic story about the boarding action on the Sword of Sacrilege and his death there, but then went on to say that is was also rumored that he survived and retreated from the public eye to attend upon the Emperor directly. What with the constant rewriting of fluff, and resurrection of old fluff it is difficult to say whether this has any bearing on the canon, but it is interesting nonetheless.
Black Library is setting the foundation for the next two editions with each successive novels of the HH. As they keep splurting them out, more and more of the orignal backstory (ie abhumans like the Squats) are getting rewritten or simply 'erased', as if the never were written in the first place. I bring up the Space-Dwarves because they originally started as a mutant-race for the Imp Guard. But now, they were revamped for the Tau race since no one, and I mean NO ONE, wanted to play or write anything about 'Squats'. My God, they even went back to the past edition books and rewrote them, editting out that race.
Ultimately, whose to say what else will get lined through by the editor's pen when the Heresy reaches climax?
People say that Dorn is dead but if the primarchs still have the ability to heal wounds quickly does that mean that he could be alive with no hands??
Baron Spikey
11-05-2010, 04:18 PM
Possibly, but where did he go? His troops had to fight their way on to the enemy ship's bridge and when they go their they only found some skeletal remains- I think it would be difficult for Dorn to just disappear in big ol' cloud of smoke.
Old_Paladin
11-05-2010, 04:53 PM
Dorn is a problem because he had explecitly stated fluff, that has been radically changed.
The original story is of his disappearance: He fought to the bridge of the Chaos ship, contact was lost with him, then the Ship had its reactors overload. Only his hand (singular) was found in the debris.
The story was later expanded to be his death, and his whole skeleton was found. Now there are both hands (plural) kept in seperate vaults; and his body is embedded in an Amber mold of his body.
Pendragon38
11-07-2010, 11:44 PM
So in the 3rd Ed CSM book that other CSM legions cloned Horus's body and the black legion would have nothing to do with him! so that means a clone of Horus is still alive?
If the fluff is always changing then i suppose that is abbadon is still aliive does that mean that aximand(litte horus ) is still alive meaning that he could be that clone of horus as it says he was an near exact replica?
archimbald
11-16-2010, 12:24 PM
fulgrim is possessed and its not lion el johnson in the rock, its luther, oh and dorn is in stasis suposedly recovering.
bar the other two unknown primarchs, only the emperor and the stigtilite knew where they where at and what happened to them
archimbald
11-16-2010, 12:26 PM
So in the 3rd Ed CSM book that other CSM legions cloned Horus's body and the black legion would have nothing to do with him! so that means a clone of Horus is still alive?
no abbadon destroyed the clones
HappyHaunt
11-25-2010, 04:09 PM
bar the other two unknown primarchs, only the emperor and the stigtilite knew where they where at and what happened to them
Are you referring to the fate of the 2nd/11th chapters and their primarchs? First Heretic has added a tad more information to them when it Lorgar mentions them as being destroyed at the orders of The Emperor for some unmentioned deviation, the hints are about genetic flaws, and that it took several chapters to do it.
ToBeWilly
11-30-2010, 01:11 AM
...and its not lion el johnson in the rock, its luther, oh and dorn is in stasis suposedly recovering.
IIRC both El'Jonson and Luther are deep in the Rock. Luther, only Azrael knows about, El'Jonson is buried even deeper, and only the Emperor knows this. (And the Watchers-in-the-dark, who put him there)
miteyheroes
11-30-2010, 04:50 AM
fulgrim is possessed and its not lion el johnson in the rock, its luther, oh and dorn is in stasis suposedly recovering.
bar the other two unknown primarchs, only the emperor and the stigtilite knew where they where at and what happened to them
The Horus Heresy books have mentioned the Unknown Primarchs several times. Lorgar and the Word Bearers mention them in First Heretic, and Dorn ponders them in the audio book Dark King / Lightning Tower.
The Lion is also buried in the Rock, deeper than Luther is.
Baron Spikey
12-01-2010, 10:07 AM
dorn is in stasis suposedly recovering.
You mean Guilliman, and no he isn't recovering- even if a Primarch could recover from the poison he was struck down with no time passes in a stasis field. No time=No healing.
Artein
12-01-2010, 02:19 PM
Lexicanum:
Currently, his mortal remain on stasis, on the Shrine of Guilliman deep within the Temple of Correction. There are some, however, who claim the Primarch's wounds are slowly recovering, even when they are within the Stasis field. as they show mysterious signs of healing. Others deny the phenomena, and point out the sheer impossibility of change within the Stasis field. Yet enough believe the stories to come and witness for themselves the miracle of the Primarch.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Roboute_Guilliman#Horus_Heresy_-_aftermath
dannyat2460
12-02-2010, 12:51 PM
Id love to see them put Guilliman into a Dreadnought, and baron spikey how many statis fields have you seen lately? who are we to say it stops time they could just slow it down to 1min=1millenia who knows even the mechanicum dosnt know how half the technology in the imperium works never mind something as advances as a stasis field
Baron Spikey
12-09-2010, 08:31 PM
Id love to see them put Guilliman into a Dreadnought, and baron spikey how many statis fields have you seen lately? who are we to say it stops time they could just slow it down to 1min=1millenia who knows even the mechanicum dosnt know how half the technology in the imperium works never mind something as advances as a stasis field
Sorry I was going by the description of a time lock stasis field as described in 40k- of course I should have read the fine print where it says 'may not lock time, may only slow time down'.
With that sort of thinking then anything can be possible, what's the point of theorising at all if the answer can be boiled down to- 'could happen, you dont know'?
Warlord Mael'sheen
01-24-2011, 10:23 PM
hey there are ONLY 20 primarchs, leading me to believe that Omegon the (second primarch of the alpha legion) was taken is by Alpharius because he was compasionate towards Omegon. but thats just my opinion :)
FastEd
01-25-2011, 03:44 AM
I'm not quite sure what your trying to say since your sentence is a little off, but to try to give a blanket responce, Alpharius and Omegon are twins, and simultaneously both are the Alpha Legion's primarch. Omegon, unless something crazy happens in the Heresy novels, wasn't from another legion. It isn't known if the Emperor meant for the 20th primarch to be a set of twins, or even if he knew about it at all. They are frequently said to be of "one soul", implying all sorts of interesting things if it is more then just a figure of speech.
StraightSilver
01-26-2011, 05:08 AM
Going back to the 2 missing Primarchs there is also a subtle hint as to what happened to their Legions in one of the more recent Heresy novels, First Heretic I think.
We know, or rather it is suggested that at least one of the missing Primarchs in some way deviated from the norm and rebelled against or displeased the Emperor in some way.
The Primarchs were erased from history, but what about their Legions of Astartes?
It is hinted that they were absorbed into the ranks of the Ultramarines, which is why the 13th Legion is by far the largest.
Could this be why Guilliman was so adamant they follow his Codex Astartes to the letter, and why they stamp out any free thinking or deviation from Guiiliman's teachings?
Is there possibly going to be a darker side of the Ultramarines revealed?
And is it a coincidence that the Ultramarines are the 13th Legion?
Obviously pure speculation on my part, but they have been hinting a bit towards something along these lines.
Also the original Legiones Astartes were based on the 28 Roman Legions. 3 of these Legions were famously lost without trace whilst on campaign in Germania, and very little information about what happened to them was recorded.
However it was then discovered that all 3 Legions had been massacred, mainly due to the incompetence of the General leading them, and apparently all 3 Legions were erased from Imperial Roman records.
Their remains were never found.
Games Workshop always said that the 2 missing Primarchs were in some way representative of the 3 missing Legions, and as they were never found, then they would never reveal what happened to the 2 missing Primarchs.
However Archeologists are thought to have discovered the remains of one of the missing Legions about a year ago, so you never know.....
FastEd
01-26-2011, 09:08 AM
I didn't know about the correspondence to the missing Roman legions, nor that of the three were missing for that matter.
It would be interesting to see what happened to the two, especially to see how it develops as more potential information on the possibly found missing legion is discovered.
StraightSilver
01-26-2011, 10:01 AM
Well the missing Legions were wiped out (allegedly) in the Battle of the Teutoborg Forest, although only a few bones were found many years later.
The missing Legions were the Legions of Varus, I have copied some text from an article about it here:
"The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest in 9 AD was one of the most comprehensive and crushing defeats the Romans ever suffered – it effectively ended Roman expansion into northern Europe. Publius Quinctilius Varus was the ill-fated general whose three legions (out of Rome’s 28 legions total) were ambushed en route to winter camp by a unification of Germanic tribes under the prince Arminius. All three – the XVII, XVIII and XIX, numbering more than 15,000 men total – subsequently disappeared from the face of history completely. It would be six years before their fate was learned.
Varus was a foolish general. Unsuspecting of Arminius – whom he trusted as an ally – he allowed his forces to be caught strung-out and unprepared along a narrow forest road. The few survivors of the ensuing bloodbath were either ritually sacrificed on stone altars, crucified on sacred oak trees or burned alive in wicker cages. Varus himself opted to commit suicide rather than face capture.
It’s said that it the Emperor, Augustus, only learned of the defeat when he was forwarded Varus’s severed head by Morboduus, the King of Bohemia, after Arminius had presented it to him in a bid to show off. The full extent of the gruesome fate met out upon Varus’s force was only discovered in 15 AD, when the general Germanicus staged the final, brief Roman crossing of the Rhine, and found piles of bones scattered around the forest. The legion numbers XVII, XVIII and XIX remained erased forever from the records, and Rome never again fielded more than 25 legions."
There is another article here:
http://heritage-key.com/blogs/bija-knowles/day-history-romes-defeat-battle-teutoburg-forest
If GW really were intending to stick to this piece of history then the two missing Primarchs could well be Varus and Arminius.
The idea that Arminius was born in Germania, raised in Rome but stayed loyal to Germania makes me wonder if one the Primarchs didn't want to leave the world he was raised on? Or was unhappy with his homeworld reintegrating with the Imperium?
And could Varus have simply been duped by Arminius if they were Primarchs? Maybe Primarch Arminius led Primarch Varus into a trap, which led to him being slain, and then the Emperor sent Russ to destroy Arminius?
Again pure speculation, but when I worked for GW many, many yaesr ago they always used to insist that they used real historical events to base a lot of the earlier fluff on, so who knows?
There's a strong implication from Leman Russ himself that the wolves were used to destroy one of the missing legions (at least that's the way I read it).
I also think that we'll see the less than noble side of the Ultramarines - Gulliman came across as utterly cold and calculating (as befits a master logistician I suppose) at the start of Last Heretic, I'd like to see that explored. Personally I think they were utterly loyal to the Emperor but since he was a xenophobic tyrant that's not necessarily a good thing!
plawolf
01-26-2011, 02:10 PM
I also remember a short conversation between Dorn and Malcandor in Nemisis (iirc) where Dorn raised the possibility of almost bring back the lost Legions, but Malcandor killed that line of thought by stating that they were 'lost' to the Imperium.
That would suggest that those Legions were not totally destroyed or already represented in the Smurfs, well not entirely.
I also wonder how well the marines of a Legion would accept being absorbed into the Smurfs if Russ just offed their Primarch.
It would seem to fit better if the Wolves were unleashed on another Legion, but instead of destroying it completely, they might have launched a 'decapitation' attack and wiped out the errant Primarch's personal guard/complement (after all, it is rare for a Legion to be at their Primarch's side in its entirety all the time), and probably took that Primarch prisoner instead of merely killing him.
That would make his remaining marines more ready and willing to accept being absorbed into another legion. If Russ had killed their Primarch, the remaining marines would much more likely turn renegade and try to avenge their lost father.
The other Legion could have been banished or sent of some eternal crusade of penance or vigil, and so might have been able to be called back, and that was what Dorn was hinting at.
Or it really could be that Russ and his wolves were unleashed to wipe out another Legion, while the other lost Legion had its Primarch imprisoned and his men absorbed into the Smurfs, and Dorn was just suggesting they let the errant Primarch out of the 'tower' and help with the defense. A Primarch, even without his Legion, is still a monstrously powerful asset.
Artein
01-26-2011, 04:45 PM
I also remember a short conversation between Dorn and Malcandor in Nemisis (iirc) where Dorn raised the possibility of almost bring back the lost Legions, but Malcandor killed that line of thought by stating that they were 'lost' to the Imperium.
That was in The Lightning Tower audiobook.
Daemonette666
01-27-2011, 03:38 PM
So we could have a situatoin where there are the Chaos Daemon Princes - Perturabo, Lorgar, Angron, Magnus the Red, Mortarian and Fulgrim (still a Daemon Primarch) and the 2 Alpha Legion Primarchs (because they are not confirmed dead at all - makes them end of time in my book)
VERSES
Lemun Russ, Corax, Jaghati Khan, Lion El' Johnson, and possibly Vulkan.
Imperial have confirmed dead - Rogal Dorn, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus, and Gulliman while Chaos has only Night Haunter and Horus as confirmed dead.
Go CHAOS YAAAY.
Daemonette666
01-27-2011, 03:46 PM
Going back to the 2 missing Primarchs there is also a subtle hint as to what happened to their Legions in one of the more recent Heresy novels, First Heretic I think.
We know, or rather it is suggested that at least one of the missing Primarchs in some way deviated from the norm and rebelled against or displeased the Emperor in some way.
The Primarchs were erased from history, but what about their Legions of Astartes?
It is hinted that they were absorbed into the ranks of the Ultramarines, which is why the 13th Legion is by far the largest.
Could this be why Guilliman was so adamant they follow his Codex Astartes to the letter, and why they stamp out any free thinking or deviation from Guiiliman's teachings?
Is there possibly going to be a darker side of the Ultramarines revealed?
And is it a coincidence that the Ultramarines are the 13th Legion?
Obviously pure speculation on my part, but they have been hinting a bit towards something along these lines.
Also the original Legiones Astartes were based on the 28 Roman Legions. 3 of these Legions were famously lost without trace whilst on campaign in Germania, and very little information about what happened to them was recorded.
However it was then discovered that all 3 Legions had been massacred, mainly due to the incompetence of the General leading them, and apparently all 3 Legions were erased from Imperial Roman records.
Their remains were never found.
Games Workshop always said that the 2 missing Primarchs were in some way representative of the 3 missing Legions, and as they were never found, then they would never reveal what happened to the 2 missing Primarchs.
However Archeologists are thought to have discovered the remains of one of the missing Legions about a year ago, so you never know.....
I mentioned thiss in another thread. The Mechanicus have them in stasus pods. One of their facilities was raided by Chaos Space Marines withthe assistance of a recently sorrupted Adeptus Mechanicus big wig, and they proceeded to collect the bodies and one of the CSM champions was eating the geneseed directly from the bodies in stasus. It was on a moon facility. I think it was an Iron Warriors novel. It has been a long time since I read it.
Tynskel
01-27-2011, 05:43 PM
So we could have a situatoin where there are the Chaos Daemon Princes - Perturabo, Lorgar, Angron, Magnus the Red, Mortarian and Fulgrim (still a Daemon Primarch) and the 2 Alpha Legion Primarchs (because they are not confirmed dead at all - makes them end of time in my book)
VERSES
Lemun Russ, Corax, Jaghati Khan, Lion El' Johnson, and possibly Vulkan.
Imperial have confirmed dead - Rogal Dorn, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus, and Gulliman while Chaos has only Night Haunter and Horus as confirmed dead.
Go CHAOS YAAAY.
I don't remember Rogal Dorn being dead--- he went into the warp to chase down foes. Gulliman is in statis, and sloooowly healing. The Lion is likewise in stasis. Vulkan left, as far as I can tell, and that's Vulkan He'Stan's quest is to bring him back.
AirHorse
01-27-2011, 09:33 PM
Rogal Dorn died when a ship he boarded blew up, theyve got his hand or something as a relic dont they?
Force21
01-27-2011, 11:40 PM
So we could have a situatoin where there are the Chaos Daemon Princes - Perturabo, Lorgar, Angron, Magnus the Red, Mortarian and Fulgrim (still a Daemon Primarch) and the 2 Alpha Legion Primarchs (because they are not confirmed dead at all - makes them end of time in my book)
VERSES
Lemun Russ, Corax, Jaghati Khan, Lion El' Johnson, and possibly Vulkan.
Imperial have confirmed dead - Rogal Dorn, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus, and Gulliman while Chaos has only Night Haunter and Horus as confirmed dead.
Go CHAOS YAAAY.
But the Imperium has Grey Knights now...
& we know that Brother Captains & Grand Masters have banished Demon Primarchs before.
but back in topic...
don't only the Dark Angels know that The Loin is still alive?
& Khan didn't he get like lost in the warp or something like that??? so he would not be able to help if the 13th black crusade broke out of the cadian gate.
FastEd
01-28-2011, 03:14 AM
The Dark Angels theorize that Lion'El is alive because of the mad rantings of Luthor when they let him out of stasis to try to discern more information about his final fight with Lion'El, and they are correct. In fact, Lion'El is hidden even deeper in the Rock then Luthor is, in one of the forgotten and undiscovered sections that was once part of the fortress monastery/chunk of Caliban that became the Rock.
I also think that we'll see the less than noble side of the Ultramarines - Gulliman came across as utterly cold and calculating (as befits a master logistician I suppose) at the start of Last Heretic, I'd like to see that explored. Personally I think they were utterly loyal to the Emperor but since he was a xenophobic tyrant that's not necessarily a good thing!
That's another thing I would like expanded on as well. I think we see a lot of noble knight flavor all the time, but if you look at Space Marines in general, not just Gulliman and his troops, you see a lot of cold, logical, calculating thought, and it's probably another reason why Marines are so effective, even in excessively small numbers. This probably rings true for Lion'El as well since the legend goes on about him frequently planning legendary perfect assaults in which he wouldn't lose a single man.
I mentioned thiss in another thread. The Mechanicus have them in stasus pods. One of their facilities was raided by Chaos Space Marines withthe assistance of a recently sorrupted Adeptus Mechanicus big wig, and they proceeded to collect the bodies and one of the CSM champions was eating the geneseed directly from the bodies in stasus. It was on a moon facility. I think it was an Iron Warriors novel. It has been a long time since I read it.
IIRC, and I may be wrong as I can't seem to find the other thread, that was a theory you had, though not a bad one, about where they were as it never actually goes on to say they were the lost legions, or even part of them. The Mechanicus are the ones who hold all the geneseed samples for records and to test for purity. It could have been any facility that housed geneseed, and from one or multiple legions and/or chapters.
Daemonette666
01-28-2011, 03:36 AM
But the Imperium has Grey Knights now...
& we know that Brother Captains & Grand Masters have banished Demon Primarchs before.
but back in topic...
don't only the Dark Angels know that The Loin is still alive?
& Khan didn't he get like lost in the warp or something like that??? so he would not be able to help if the 13th black crusade broke out of the cadian gate.
But as you know Chaos Champions and Terminators have destroyed entire squads of Grey Knights including their so-called Brother Captains. The only reason one was let to live, was because they wanted him to fight in an arena on a daemon world. They put a collar of Khorne on him to retard his psychic abilities. If it was not for the fact he went mad, he would not have survived as long as he did.
Then you have to include all the Greater Daemons and Daemon Lords of the major powers if you include Grey Knights , and Custodes.
But back to topic. more of the loyalist Primarchs have been killed than the Chaos Primarchs.
With Guilliman being held in stasus to preserve his body after Lucius cut his throat and KILLED him, yes he is DEAD and not healing sloooowly, and Johnson burried in the lowest depths of the rock, There is really ony corax, russ, vulcan and Khan who are trapsing off in the warp who can come back at the fall of the Imperium (which has been foretold by the council of ancients)
Chaos only has the 2 Alpha Legion Primarchs who are probably not Daemon Primarchs who are not accounted for.
But GW will only give out confirmed information on the Primarchs where abouts when it suits them, and that will not be often. We still do not know anything definate about the 2 Lost/ Killed off primarchs, except that one rebelled and went against the emperors wishes, and the other refused to accept the emperor as his father. Both were killed off by the other Primarchs, but there are rumours, inuendoes that Lemun Russ killed them both (the emperors executioner) Both their legions were either absorbed into the other Legions, put in stasis or just wiped out. The remaining Primarchs made a promise never to mention the names of the 2 killed off brothers.
DrLove42
01-28-2011, 05:25 AM
Not related to the Primarches, but related to the big Primarch vs Primarch at the end of time battle...
The Eldar legend of the end of days, where all the phoenix lords return for the last battle of the materium vs the immaterium. So the imperium might be outnumbered in terms of primarches but they'd proibably have a little xenos support ;)
plawolf
01-28-2011, 07:06 AM
Rogal Dorn died when a ship he boarded blew up, theyve got his hand or something as a relic dont they?
Not exactly. He lead a small detachment of Fists in a suicidal boarding operation to slow down a massive chaos fleet. When the rest of the fists showed up, all they found was his severed hand when they boarded a battleship.
It was never said that he was killed, just that the Fisits assumed he was.
The timing of the incident was also worth mentioning, as at that time, iirc, Dorn was the last Primarch still alive and active, and sections of the Imperium were starting to deify him, much to his ire.
Personally, I find it unlikely for the Primarch to be taken out during a boarding action, since the design of a ship would force attackers into bottlenecks so they would be able to fully capitalise on any numerical advantage.
My personal view is that if Vulcan can survive being blasted by vehicle mounted heavy weapons or artillery when faced against traitor legions and Primarches in open ground, Dorn should be able to take care of himself against 'mere' traitor marines in a maze of corridors on a starship. The fact that he was operating amounts a fleet of enemy ships at anchor would also give him the opportunity and means to 'disappear' if he wished by taking over one of the smaller ships and then jumping out to wherever he wanted to go.
Baron Spikey
01-28-2011, 09:00 AM
It was never said that he was killed, just that the Fisits assumed he was.
The timing of the incident was also worth mentioning, as at that time, iirc, Dorn was the last Primarch still alive and active, and sections of the Imperium were starting to deify him, much to his ire.
One of the last, both Jaghatai Khan and Roboute Guillman were still around for decades after Dorn was killed/disappeared.
In order of disappearance it goes:
Ferrus Manus (Isstvan V- killed by Fulgrim)
Sanguinius (Siege of Terra- killed by Horus)
Lion El'Jonson (before the break up of the Legions)
Leman Russ (first celebration of the Emperor's Ascension- so not long after the break up of the Legions)
Corax (1 year after the break up of the Legions)
Rogal Dorn (shortly after Corax left OR 20 years after depending on which Index Astartes you read)
Jaghati Khan (70 years after the break up of the Legions- disappeared through a Webway portal)
Roboute Guilliman (100 years after the Legion break up- killed by Fulgrim)
Vulkan disappeared sometime shortly after the Legion breakup, but as to exactly when no one knows
jorz192
01-28-2011, 11:13 AM
With Guilliman being held in stasus to preserve his body after Lucius cut his throat and KILLED him, yes he is DEAD and not healing sloooowly, and Johnson burried in the lowest depths of the rock, There is really ony corax, russ, vulcan and Khan who are trapsing off in the warp who can come back at the fall of the Imperium (which has been foretold by the council of ancients)
Lucius did not kill Guilliman, Fulgrim did with a poisoned blade. Curze, Horus, and one of the Alpha Legion twin primarchs are dead.
Chaos is ahead in the score of fatalities but the chaos Primarchs have been defeated before by other loyalists.
plawolf
01-28-2011, 01:04 PM
One of the last, both Jaghatai Khan and Roboute Guillman were still around for decades after Dorn was killed/disappeared.
In order of disappearance it goes:
Ferrus Manus (Isstvan V- killed by Fulgrim)
Sanguinius (Siege of Terra- killed by Horus)
Lion El'Jonson (before the break up of the Legions)
Leman Russ (first celebration of the Emperor's Ascension- so not long after the break up of the Legions)
Corax (1 year after the break up of the Legions)
Rogal Dorn (shortly after Corax left OR 20 years after depending on which Index Astartes you read)
Jaghati Khan (70 years after the break up of the Legions- disappeared through a Webway portal)
Roboute Guilliman (100 years after the Legion break up- killed by Fulgrim)
Vulkan disappeared sometime shortly after the Legion breakup, but as to exactly when no one knows
Cheers for clearing that up, was going off memory and it has been a few years since I read that piece of fluff.
plawolf
01-28-2011, 01:12 PM
With Guilliman being held in stasus to preserve his body after Lucius cut his throat and KILLED him, yes he is DEAD and not healing sloooowly, and Johnson burried in the lowest depths of the rock, There is really ony corax, russ, vulcan and Khan who are trapsing off in the warp who can come back at the fall of the Imperium (which has been foretold by the council of ancients)
Lucius did not kill Guilliman, Fulgrim did with a poisoned blade. Curze, Horus, and one of the Alpha Legion twin primarchs are dead.
Chaos is ahead in the score of fatalities but the chaos Primarchs have been defeated before by other loyalists.
Guilliman was never killed. He was mortally wounded by a poisoned blade. Although I have never seen it mentioned, I always thought it was the Anathema that wounded Horus and was latter gifted to Fulgrium by Horus as a sign of trust between the two.
Since the Anathema is based on warp magic, there is a chance its effects could be countered by someone/something powerful enough, like the Emperor re-born/re-awakened perhaps.
GW never killed papa smurf off, so it would be a massive assumption to count him out.
Also, the watchers in the dark are keeping the Lion safe, and would awaken him when he is needed again.
I would love to see the faces of the Dark Angels when they found their Primarch just opens a door and wave a hello.
I would love it if he said something along the lines of, 'well its your turn to hide now. Go!'
jorz192
01-28-2011, 01:49 PM
Even the Ultramarines believe he is dead. I know it's in the Ultramarines omnibus and I think I have seen it in other places. It says that the only people that believe that he will come back are the pilgrims that visit the shrine.
His throat was cut and that generally causes death.
And I knew about the Lion being alive I just meant he is "buried" or hidden deep in the Rock.
plawolf
01-28-2011, 02:08 PM
Even the Ultramarines believe he is dead. I know it's in the Ultramarines omnibus and I think I have seen it in other places. It says that the only people that believe that he will come back are the pilgrims that visit the shrine.
His throat was cut and that generally causes death.
And I knew about the Lion being alive I just meant he is "buried" or hidden deep in the Rock.
The Ultramarines, and by that, only one Captain, did not believe in the suggestion that Guilliman was slowly healing because he was in stasis, and by definition, time stood still in stasis so nothing could change (that was the reason for not believing the theory, not because he was already dead).
I have read all the books and do not remember anywhere where it says the Smurfs think is is already actually dead.
Besides, I have lost count of the number of times miracles have happened in 40K fluff that defy all 'scientific' explanation.
If GW wants to bring Guilliman back, he's back faster than you can say 'The Emperor protects'.
plawolf
01-28-2011, 02:09 PM
Double post deleted
shrike
01-28-2011, 03:25 PM
Gulliman is in stasis, with his throat slit by a daemon,
Vulkan got lost,
Corax flew into the eye of terror, never to be seen again,
Ferrus Manus got killed by Fulgrim at istvaan
Lion 'el Johnson got killed by one of his commanders, Luther.
Angron turned into a daemon
Perturabo turned into a daemon and is chilling out in the warp
Russ got lost
Dorn died during a hit & run attack on board a battleship.
Khan got sucked into a warp portal
Curze go assassinated
Sanguinius got killed by horus
Horus got killed by the emperor
Mortarion turned into a daemon prince
Magnus turned into a daemon prince
Lorgar turned into a daemon prince
Alpharius got killed by gulliman (probably)
basically, most loyalist primarchs are either lost or dead, and most traitor primarchs are daemon princes.
Daemonette666
01-28-2011, 05:35 PM
Gulliman is in stasis, with his throat slit by a daemon,
Vulkan got lost,
Corax flew into the eye of terror, never to be seen again,
Ferrus Manus got killed by Fulgrim at istvaan
Lion 'el Johnson got killed by one of his commanders, Luther.
Angron turned into a daemon
Perturabo turned into a daemon and is chilling out in the warp
Russ got lost
Dorn died during a hit & run attack on board a battleship.
Khan got sucked into a warp portal
Curze go assassinated
Sanguinius got killed by horus
Horus got killed by the emperor
Mortarion turned into a daemon prince
Magnus turned into a daemon prince
Lorgar turned into a daemon prince
Alpharius got killed by gulliman (probably)
basically, most loyalist primarchs are either lost or dead, and most traitor primarchs are daemon princes.
And Fulgrim got turned into a Daemon Prince.
Omega - Alpharius's twin brother ???
AirHorse
01-28-2011, 08:42 PM
Not exactly. He lead a small detachment of Fists in a suicidal boarding operation to slow down a massive chaos fleet. When the rest of the fists showed up, all they found was his severed hand when they boarded a battleship.
It was never said that he was killed, just that the Fisits assumed he was.
The timing of the incident was also worth mentioning, as at that time, iirc, Dorn was the last Primarch still alive and active, and sections of the Imperium were starting to deify him, much to his ire.
Personally, I find it unlikely for the Primarch to be taken out during a boarding action, since the design of a ship would force attackers into bottlenecks so they would be able to fully capitalise on any numerical advantage.
My personal view is that if Vulcan can survive being blasted by vehicle mounted heavy weapons or artillery when faced against traitor legions and Primarches in open ground, Dorn should be able to take care of himself against 'mere' traitor marines in a maze of corridors on a starship. The fact that he was operating amounts a fleet of enemy ships at anchor would also give him the opportunity and means to 'disappear' if he wished by taking over one of the smaller ships and then jumping out to wherever he wanted to go.
Actually it wasnt just his hand, just found this (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rogal_Dorn) on lexicanum. Aparently they found his whole skeleton and entombed it in amber to the shape of his flesh. I had always thought dorns death was a little mysterious, but aparently its not quite so :P
hamsandwich283
11-14-2012, 12:13 AM
for all the information and more go to my website that i am working on and updating all the time with new information about the primarchs and the warhammer 40k games plus cool videos. http://warhammer40000webpage.webs.com/
energongoodie
11-14-2012, 02:55 AM
Just wanted to chime in with a theory.
I think Omegon is gonna be Janus of the Grey Knights.
That is all.
Dalleron
11-21-2012, 01:21 PM
So we could probably say that Alpharius, as that appears to be the consensus so far. But what of his twin Omegon? We can go with that he is alive but the Alpha legion would have it remain unknown. Now you take into account that what is left of his legion was supposedly fighting the imperium to help save it by destroying it. At least that is what I took from Legion, iirc. Could he not be fighting double agent style, and sabotage Chaos side from with in. This could even out the side could a little bit.
Animus Silvanna
11-22-2012, 12:13 PM
But as you know Chaos Champions and Terminators have destroyed entire squads of Grey Knights including their so-called Brother Captains. The only reason one was let to live, was because they wanted him to fight in an arena on a daemon world. They put a collar of Khorne on him to retard his psychic abilities. If it was not for the fact he went mad, he would not have survived as long as he did.
Then you have to include all the Greater Daemons and Daemon Lords of the major powers if you include Grey Knights , and Custodes.
Yeah but the HUGE fact remains that he did in fact survive and to quote the book Hammer of Demons, one of my favorite books, " Survival is not enough..." and Alaric ended up completely annihilating both his captor the monstrosities he fought against and a captured Greater demon along with an Eldar assassin. Not to mention escaped unscathed and made it back to serve back into the Imperium. But of-course Alaric is well know to be a major badass. To say the least Grey Knights spank some major Chaos A** with way fewer numbers
Aginor
11-24-2012, 08:17 PM
I think it is safe to say that in the end times there will be 6 Demon Princes and 6 Loyal Primarchs returned for the end game. I think Omegon will join the forces of good and I consider Guilleman dead, it took chaos to cure Horus from the Anathame.
As far as the two "lost" legions. I think one primarch was either killed or stillborn before ever getting a legion (hinted at by Horus in his Warp dreams on Davin) and that legion merged with the Ultramarines. The other I believe was wiped out by the Space Wolves for some transgression.
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