Imperial Guand and Dawn of War

[Sarpedon]

So i pose to you a question and debate that has been floating around my local gaming club for some time now and seems to emerge whenever the title senario happens. Now this is realyl just me voicing a conclusion of sorts to the question but we're interested in if the rule gurus agree with our assessment.

The question is: What exactly is a imperial guard player allowed to deploy during dawn of war? i shall elaborate.

The rules to dawn of war state that you may deploy up to one HQ and two troop UNITS. This is operative word as it does not say troop choices. By the genreally accepted definition of unit, a unit is worth one kill point. So in theory in Dawn of War you can deploy up to one Kill point from your HQ and two Kill points from your troops.

We have several players who believe that Imperial Guard when deploying may deploy two platoons and an HQ squad. Now by our previous definition this is not possible because a troop platoon contains more than one UNIT each of which is worth its own kill point. The next question is what of dedicated transports? as they are purchased as a unit upgrade instead of seperate entry. Now seeing as it is worth a kill point if you deploy it and the unit inside you may not deploy anything else in regards to troops during your Dawn of War ( Unit inside and vehicle = 2 kill points). Now would you say this is correct? or could they argue that the unit inside is not on the table and therefor does not count towards this limit? and are there other things that would seem wrong with our assessment?

[crazyredpraetorian]

Each squad is a unit.

[Nabterayl]

Agreed. Each squad is a unit, notwithstanding that they're only part of a Force Organization Chart choice.

[BuFFo]

A unit has nothing to do with being a troop choice.

Basically, in warhamemr 40k, a unit is any single model or group of models that perform actions as one.

A Chimera is a unit and the Veterans inside the Chimera is a unit. Thats two units from one troop choice.

So in Dawn of War, you can only deploy two troop UNITS and one HQ UNIT.

That would basically be....

Command Squad (leaving their Chimera off the board)
or
Chimera(leaving the Command squad off the board)

and

10 Veterans

and

the Veterans Chimera.



An IG Troop Choice can contain, what, something like 20 units?

[Jwolf]

Using what qualifies as a Kill Point is an excellent way to understand what can be deployed in a Guard army.

[Commissar Lewis]

Ah man, there goes my only reason to love Dawn of War deployment... Oh well, I'll roll with the punches.

My new question is this: can Heavy Weapon squads from a platoon be deployed as the two troops units?

[Nabterayl]

Absolutely. If they're part of an infantry platoon they're Troops.

[gwensdad]

It's always been understood around these parts that if you've got a dedicated transport for a unit, it deploys with the unit and is part of it at setup and that a "unit" means something that takes up 1 slot on the FOC.
Also, in the guard codex it states that infantry platoons set up all at once, so a platoon with 1 platoon command + 5 infantry squads + 5 heavy weapons + 2 special weapons + conscripts sets up all at once and as 1 "unit".

EDIT:
I just re-re-re-re-read the rules and it would seem that a fully maxed-out guard platoon could never deploy in DoW, as it would be more than 2 "units". But the setup does state "up to 2" which could be seen on deploying no troop units. That or take penal squads and veteran squads if you want troops on the board during setup.

[Nabterayl]

Dedicated transports are not part of a unit unless so stated in the relevant Codex. Rulebook page 92:


MULTIPLE UNIT CHOICES
Note that occasionally the Codexes allow the player to include several units in his army at the cost of a single force organisation slot (like dedicated transports, etc.). Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects.

As page 87 elaborates:


Dedicated transports
Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organisation structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for. When this distinction is called for (for example in some missions or deployment types), dedicated transport vehicles count as being from the same force organisation category as the unit they were bought for. For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (Troops) counts as a unit of Troops, but if it was bought for a unit of Veterans (Elites) it counts as Elites.

So you can use dedicated transports in a Dawn of War scenario, but they count as their own unit - so, for instance, one HQ unit, one unit of infantry Troops, and that unit's dedicated transport would be all three deployable units in Dawn of War.

Entire Infantry Platoons can never deploy fully in Dawn of War, no, since an Infantry Platoon consists at a minimum of three units. Dawn of War says that you can deploy" up to [but needn't deploy any] two units from his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections." Page 87 makes it clear that "selection" is an FoC term. "Unit," while never explicitly defined, carries all sorts of limitations (for instance, all models in a "unit" must fire at the same target, no models in a "unit" can fire heavy weapons if any models have moved, all models in a "unit" must maintain coherency) that make it clear to me that infantry platoons are not single "units."

The IG Codex does state that each Infantry Platoon deploys together as "a single Troops choice," but it doesn't anywhere call each platoon its own "unit."

[Eyespy]

MULTIPLE UNIT CHOICES
Note that occasionally the Codexes allow the player to include seeral units in his army at the cost of a single force organisation slot (like dedicated transports, etc.). Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects.

You know, I've been a vocal proponent of the 'Deploy as one' side of this debate since the release of 5th ed, but this is the first time anyone has quoted this rule. I think you just changed my mind.

[Culven]

It's always been understood around these parts that if you've got a dedicated transport for a unit, it deploys with the unit and is part of it at setup and that a "unit" means something that takes up 1 slot on the FOC.
Also, in the guard codex it states that infantry platoons set up all at once, so a platoon with 1 platoon command + 5 infantry squads + 5 heavy weapons + 2 special weapons + conscripts sets up all at once and as 1 "unit".
The difference between a Unit and an FOC choice is pretty clear in the rulebook. In DoW, only three Units can be Deployed; however, there may be cases in which several Units may be considered a single Unit for Deployment. This will be clearly identified in the Unit's rules.


I just re-re-re-re-read the rules and it would seem that a fully maxed-out guard platoon could never deploy in DoW, as it would be more than 2 "units". But the setup does state "up to 2" which could be seen on deploying no troop units. That or take penal squads and veteran squads if you want troops on the board during setup.
The full Platoon could not be Deployed, but one can still Deploy Units from their Platoons. This isn't prohibited by the Platoon rules.

[BuFFo]

You know, I've been a vocal proponent of the 'Deploy as one' side of this debate since the release of 5th ed, but this is the first time anyone has quoted this rule. I think you just changed my mind.

Actually, the rules in the main rule book you've been missing this whole time changed your mind ;):D

[Eyespy]

Actually, the rules in the main rule book you've been missing this whole time changed your mind ;):D

This is true and I have absoloutly no excuse. Although I do note that the people whom I've argued the point with in the past have missed it too.

[jose21018]

The IG codex answers this Question for you in the infantry platoon section it says that the entire platoon counts as a single troop selection for deployment there for a platoon's command unit plus it's infantry squads,heavy weapon squads, Special weapon squads, and conscripts deploy as one troop in DoW it was that way in the old book it is still that way in the new one. a platoon also comes in on a single reserve roll not one per squad. the fact that the platoon must come in from reserves as a whole means it must enter play as a whole regardless of how it comes in, be it reserves or deployment. so in all ways a platoon deploys as a single unit that has parts that do not require coherency to the other parts. this is done to keep guard players from being hurt by the fact that anything in reserve that dose not enter play counts as destroyed, as well as keep them from bringing in fresh troops every turn. while the rule book does go on to say that dedicated transports count as a second unit, this is for other units like SM honor guards, nid lictors, and zonethropes that are purchased as one FoC but deploy separate. these units have no codex rules that mention them being deployed as one selection as the guard codex does. The codex is the higher authority in rule disputes as mentioned on pg 289 of the BRB.

[Jwolf]

The IG codex answers this Question for you in the infantry platoon section it says that the entire platoon counts as a single troop selection for deployment there for a platoon's command unit plus it's infantry squads,heavy weapon squads, Special weapon squads, and conscripts deploy as one troop in DoW it was that way in the old book it is still that way in the new one. a platoon also comes in on a single reserve roll not one per squad. the fact that the platoon must come in from reserves as a whole means it must enter play as a whole regardless of how it comes in, be it reserves or deployment. so in all ways a platoon deploys as a single unit that has parts that do not require coherency to the other parts. this is done to keep guard players from being hurt by the fact that anything in reserve that dose not enter play counts as destroyed, as well as keep them from bringing in fresh troops every turn. while the rule book does go on to say that dedicated transports count as a second unit, this is for other units like SM honor guards, nid lictors, and zonethropes that are purchased as one FoC but deploy separate. these units have no codex rules that mention them being deployed as one selection as the guard codex does. The codex is the higher authority in rule disputes as mentioned on pg 289 of the BRB.

If the Codex said what you claim, it would take precendence. The Codex does not; it merely says to treat the platoon as a single entity when rolling for Reserves, not even a hint of "deploy as a single unit".

[George Labour]

Don't suppose anyone has a link to official GW FAW or anything on the matter? THis recently came up in a recent game I played and if this is true this means I've been cheating the Tau players I had to go up against. Incidentally only one of them had an issue with is, and even he acquiessed when I referenced the infantry platoon section of the codex.

I always thought that the bit in the infantry platoon section of the IG codex( BOth old and new) Said that it counts as one unit for purposes of deployment, FOC choice, etc. But I don't have my codex on me ATM. ANyone want to go read that part and see what it says?

[Culven]

The IG codecies only state that the Infantry Platoon is a singe Troops choice/selection. Nothing states that it is considered to be a single Troops unit as far as Dawn of War is concerned. This all comes down to the use of "choice/select" or "unit" and the implications of each term.

[Nabterayl]

Don't suppose anyone has a link to official GW FAW or anything on the matter? THis recently came up in a recent game I played and if this is true this means I've been cheating the Tau players I had to go up against. Incidentally only one of them had an issue with is, and even he acquiessed when I referenced the infantry platoon section of the codex.

I always thought that the bit in the infantry platoon section of the IG codex( BOth old and new) Said that it counts as one unit for purposes of deployment, FOC choice, etc. But I don't have my codex on me ATM. ANyone want to go read that part and see what it says?

Page 96:

Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organisation chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves.

Nothing in there at all about units. It counts as a single choice for purposes of deployment, but definitely not as a single unit.

[Culven]

The counter-arguement, as I have heard it, is "if it doesn't deploy as a single choice, then why does it say it does?" I think the logic is supposed to be "When does deploying as a single Troops choice even matter?", to which I have no answer.

[TSINI]

the exact wording in the imperial guard codex, page 96 is:

"Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organisation chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves."


page 93 BRB

"He can deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and one unit from his HQ selection."


now I too have made the mistake of placing down my entire troops platoon in a dow game, but now i can see, its quite clear about only choosing 2 units, from your troops selections. and as we all know a unit, is a single squad, vehicle or squadron of vehicles.

That is all :D

[MaidenManiac]

But if you combine squads you can sport more guards on the board from start, right? If you combine 2 units standard IG infantry from the same platoon they become 1 unit. Thus you can easily deploy 40 guards + a HQ choice:confused:

This was how my IG opponent played it last time we got DoW setup, and looking quickly at it that seemed ok. Honestly speaking I was more imagining my Kroots outflank-ambushing 1 of his 20man units camping on an objective then paying attention to exact word details:p

[TSINI]

But if you combine squads you can sport more guards on the board from start, right? If you combine 2 units standard IG infantry from the same platoon they become 1 unit. Thus you can easily deploy 40 guards + a HQ choice:confused:


hell yes you can, if you wanted to combine your 5 infantry squads to become a 50 man unit, you can indeed deploy it as a single unit, (in a big enough game you could field 100 men in 2 squads of 50, and a 5 man company command squad)

the downside to this setup is that the squad will have to remain combined for the entire game, as per the combined squad rules, so yes you'll get a hell of a boost in the first turn (if you had 5 heavy weapons in there or something) but it will severely limit you on the following turns, you can't split fire, if 1 man moves, none of the heavy weapons can fire etc etc

[Culven]

Actaully, I think that with Combined Squads and a maxed Command Squad, an IG player could deploy 120 models in Dawn of War. Two combined units each made of 5 11-man IG squads (including a Commissar), and the Command Squad with Master of Ordnance, Master of the Fleet, Astropath, and two Bodyguards. I could be wrong, I'm going off memory here.