60mm Gabriel Seth

[Schnitzel]

While browsing through the Blood Angels codex I noticed a little something on Chapter Master Seth, his Whirlwind of Gore attack thingy. Instead of attacking normally he scores an auto-hit on all models in base to base with him. Well.. Models can be on bigger bases than what they come on, so it is possible to model him on a 60mm. I've seen him on 40mm plenty of times, but never a 60mm. Is that too cheap? Would it make him worthwhile to field?

[whitestar333]

While this is a good idea, I think that we all (myself included) assume that you can always mount on a bigger base, but I'm not sure if that's actually the case. In the 4th edition rulebook it explicitly stated that you could mount something on a bigger base, but I'm not sure that is the case anymore. I actually challenge someone to find the "bigger bases allowed" rule in the rulebook.

That said, I mount my wraithguard on 30mm bases because they are just too heavy and awkward on 25mm bases. I know someone who put them on 45mm bases, but I think that's too big.

[Kahoolin]

Is that too cheap?Yes. yes it is. Someone's going to say it so may as well be me. If you showed up to play a game with someone and they whipped out a Seth on a dreadnought base and said "check this out, I put him on a huge base so he can auto-hit heaps more people!" what would you think? Honestly?

I'd have to say I'd think the person seemed a little too concerned with gaining dubious advantages to be a fun opponent.

[Force21]

Isn't there a Space Wolf IC that has like he gets his attacks = to enemy's in base to base...?

& I thought it said don't put him on a bigger base for that reason...


I would guess the same for Seth...

[mathhammer]

mounting him on a bigger base is cheating

main rule book page 3 section bases.

[wittdooley]

It doesn't say it's cheating. In fact, it says its allowed if your opponent says it's kosher. With that in mind, if you did a really nice, scenic 40mm base, I sincerely doubt anyone would shake a stick at you. I have my Vulkan mounted on a 40mm and I've used it in a few tournies with no problems.

However, there is no way people are gonna be cool with a 60mm. That reeks of cheese.

[Skalver]

Well since the rules say it is only ok with the approval of your opponent that pretty much means you won't get away with having him on anything other than a standard 25mm infantry base in a tournament. But then the rules pretty much state that anything is ok as long as your opponent approves. It is only a rule if your opponent has no say in the matter. Once you need his approval you are gone outside the rules pretty much by definition.

Interestingly while Canis Wolfborn in the Space Wolves codex has a similar rule it says in his rules "For those considering mounting Canis on a really large base to take advantage of this - don't even think about it!". So I think it is fair to say that anyone trying to exploit a similar rule from the BA codex wouldn't get much mercy from any judge that got called in.

[DarkLink]

Well since the rules say it is only ok with the approval of your opponent that pretty much means you won't get away with having him on anything other than a standard 25mm infantry base in a tournament.

You mean anything other than the base he came with:p.

[MajorSoB]

Clear basing to exploit rules is far from fair whether it is legal or not.

I own an all metal Deathwing army which I based with the current Terminator size base even though I could have used the smaller base since "that is what the models came with". I have seen guys argue the same thing with old Eldar Wraiths since at one time the came with a smaller base. Don't be "that guy"!

Most characters are either on the smallest Troop size base or the Terminator style base, either one being acceptable. 60mm? If you have to ask if your are pulling a dick move, don't you already know the answer to your own question?

Just a suggestion to all you gamers for when you encounter "that guy". Keep a heavy steel tape measure in your gaming box. Bring it out during the game and "accidently" drop it on his oversized model. Ooops, I just hate when accidents happen!

Got to go, I am currently mounting Canis Wolfborn on a Valkerie base....

[Herald of Nurgle]

Where you don't get a competitive advantage from basing a model on a different base, fair game.

Where you do... 1 base size bigger (unless noted - i.e. Canis) or I throw you out the window.

[BuFFo]

Don't be "that guy"!

You mean the guy who is right?

To the OP - Base your model however you see fit. There is a difference between what is said/done on the internet and what is said/done in real life.

Base your model as you see fit. It does not make him any cheaper, as a matter of fact aquiring a new base for him might make him more expensive. As for the viability in combat, of course having a bigger base would help, as he can auto hit more models!

[mathhammer]

As for the viability in combat, of course having a bigger base would help, as he can auto hit more models!

Yhea sounds like modeling to cheat, let me go change my carnifexs so they get cover saves from my termagaunts.

Or maybe I can mount my Monsterous Creatures on a 40mm base so they can slip through gaps in the unit in front to charge.

[Schnitzel]

Yhea sounds like modeling to cheat, let me go change my carnifexs so they get cover saves from my termagaunts.

Or maybe I can mount my Monsterous Creatures on a 40mm base so they can slip through gaps in the unit in front to charge.

Aside from the fact you CAN model on larger bases but CAN'T model on smaller bases.

Granted I have no intention of fielding a Seth model, I was interested in opinions. Theory hammer ya know.
Tempting to build a Daemon Prince variant and field him for "fun" games, ie; Story driven; opposite of competitive gaming. Get what I mean?

[BuFFo]

Yhea sounds like modeling to cheat

Possibly, but why accuse them of cheating without proof? Why don't you equally accuse the person of creativity? Why the pessimistic approach? Do you feel everyone around you is a cheater?

The best you can do is simply refuse to play the person, which I wholeheartedly agree with that decision if that is what you choose.


let me go change my carnifexs so they get cover saves from my termagaunts.

Why not? You are given a box of plastics pieces, and you can build it as you see fit.

Once again, the only option you have is to not play the person if you believe he is a git.


Or maybe I can mount my Monsterous Creatures on a 40mm base so they can slip through gaps in the unit in front to charge.

That is your choice!

You can give me a million examples, but what you see as cheating, I see as creativity. Unless I have proof a gamer is a cheat, why should I accuse every modeler I see of being a cheater? Maybe I am optimistic in life, who knows.

Just remember, if the Carnifex is getting a cover save from the units in front of him, chances are that you will receive a cover save against his shots at you. That is a possibility, no?

[mathhammer]

Possibly, but why accuse them of cheating without proof? Why don't you equally accuse the person of creativity? Why the pessimistic approach? Do you feel everyone around you is a cheater?


Note: I said model to cheat, not direct cheating.

Because the original poster stated:


Instead of attacking normally he scores an auto-hit on all models in base to base with him

He states the reason why he wants to do this is so he can get more models in base to base with Seth. There was no concern over how it might look, no dramatic posing, just how can make this attack hit more models.



You can give me a million examples, but what you see as cheating, I see as creativity. Unless I have proof a gamer is a cheat, why should I accuse every modeler I see of being a cheater? Maybe I am optimistic in life, who knows.


If it was a modeler then he would worry about the number of attacks he would be talking about the model. I personally have dramatic poses for some of my heroes and when I get into a game be friendly or not I tell my opponent their on the wrong size base, produce proxy bases for use if the opponent wishes for me to use them. In Seth's case you are almost forced to use a proxy base because of the way it changes the rules in the game.

He was told in the thread that the opponent would have to approve his "attack" modification.



Just remember, if the Carnifex is getting a cover save from the units in front of him, chances are that you will receive a cover save against his shots at you. That is a possibility, no?

While that may be true people don't make heavy modifications to a model to help the opponent.

At Adepticon there was this all Squat Imperial Guard army with skimmers. Pretty hobby oriented I thought. Until I realized the Squat player was using the skimmer hull as the size of his Chimera hull. So his little hobby modification got him a different angle on his side armor and made it harder for templates to hit. So do you think he was going to allow people to use the real size of the model they were suppose to be shooting at?

I'm pretty carefree about models, and what is what outside of a tournament., however; when the OP states he wants to do this just so Seth can get more base to base models. Yes, I call that modeling to cheat.

[DarkLink]

I've been converting some of my Grey Knights recently, and I've found it's almost impossible to fit stuff on some of the smaller bases. If I wanted to do a conversion with my character cutting down a bad guy, and couldn't fit it on a small base, then I'd use a bigger one. My opponent can whine all they want about me being cheesy, but I did it for my own reasons, and it is technically legal.

Not that I can think of a conversion that would require putting Astorath on a 60mm base, but whatever.

[mathhammer]

, and it is technically legal.


BRB page 3


..., make sure before the game that your opponent does not mind this.

[Schnitzel]

He states the reason why he wants to do this is so he can get more models in base to base with Seth. There was no concern over how it might look, no dramatic posing, just how can make this attack hit more models.


It was a question of theory hammer. If I were ever to do such a thing as put him on a 60mm base I'd make darn sure it was a diorama sort of display that did the base justice. And as I don't care for Seth as a GQ choice, even with the base boost, preferring Astaroth or Reclusiarcs, odds are I won't be taking such a model to a "competitive" event.

Also think of the drawbacks of a bigger based model, and possible larger model as well. Bigger base = more attacks ON said model. Bigger model = increased TLoS which could very well spell d-e-a-d model before he even gets the chance to assault.

Try to think of all the possible factors of why some one might be posting an idea before spinning it (and the person) in a negative light.

So once again, just to reiterate the point, this was theory crafting and not game/list planning. I'm not trying to stack any odds in my favor, I was just curious of what the general opinion of a 60mm Seth was.

[DarkLink]

BRB page 3

I wouldn't mind if it was a good enough conversion:D

[BuFFo]

When the OP states he wants to do this just so Seth can get more base to base models. Yes, I call that modeling to cheat.

And your mob gets twice the amount of attacks back on him if you are playing Orks/Tyranids.

So the larger base can actually be a hindrance.

[fade_74]

You know....this whole thread is going to come back to haunt people. About the time somebody shows up at a tournament with squads of guardsmen on valk bases (perfect speedbumps) that reach all the way across the table. Or better yet....how bout armoured sentinels....