Gaze of Flame vs. Space Wolves Revisited

[Necron_Lord]

A little while back I asked if Gaze of Flame would negate any Counter-Attack made by Space Wolves which was cleared up - (No they don't, having defensive grenades doesn't negate Counter-Attack which was buried somewhere in the SW FAQ). My next question is does the - 1 Leadership modifier in CC apply to the Counter-Attack roll made by the Space Wolf unit being assaulted by a Necron Lord with GoF? Let's examine the evidence.

Necron codex (p.15)
Enemy models fighting a close combat involving a Necron Lord with Gaze of Flame suffer a - 1 Leadership penalty, in addition to any other modifiers.

40K Rulebook (p. 74)
Counter-Attack
Troops with this skill believe that attack is always the best form of defence. If assaulted, they will spring forward themselves and ferociously counter-attack the charging enemy.
To represent this, when a unit with this rule is assaulted by the enemy it must take a Leadership test. If the test is successful all models in the unit get the + 1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn.

I am of the opinion that RAW, the asaulted unit must make its Leadership test at - 1, but some WAAC lawyer type might argue that the units were ENGAGED in CC but NOT FIGHTING because no attack or to wound rolls were made. Therefore they would argue that the - 1 Leadership modifier would only apply to the SW unit if they had to make a Morale test if they lost the CC (LOL).

So my question is this, does the - 1 Leadership modifier take place when the models touch each other (when CC is initiated) or after the results of the first round of CC are known? Any replies would be appreciated.

[DarkLink]

This isn't covered well by the rules. I would say, however, that the combat doesn't actually start until after assauld and 'defenders react' moves are made. Thus, no penalty.

[AirHorse]

Thats an interesting one. Though I would probaly say it doesnt based on the wording of counter-attack. It says when assaulted, not after being assaulted, and so I would take that to mean you take the test simultaneously to being assaulted.

But its not the most clear ever, and I wouldnt really have that big a problem with necrons getting a minor close combat advantage anyway :P

[DarkLink]

Yeah, GW needs to realize that "as if" has two possible meanings. Either "similar, but not the same thing", or "different, but should be treated the same way".

[Necron_Lord]

My whole point was this - unlike WFB where units have to make charge reactions even if the "charging" unit ends up being out of charge range, in 40K the SW unit would never have to take a counter-attack leadership test unless the unit was engaged in assault (i.e.) a necron made base to base contact with a SW model. At that point the SW unit would be "assaulted" and then would take the test. If I said that I wanted to charge the SW unit and ended up being out of assault range, nothing would happen (I have nothing to lose in declaring an assault charge, unlike WFB). I would be willing to concede that the -1 Leadership modifier would apply only if the Necron Lord was the closest model to the assaulted SW unit (i.e. the Necron Lord initiated the CC and so the SW unit would be subject to that creepy gaze of flame and be freaked out), but it also brings up the question of when the "fighting" starts. Are they "fighting" when they get engaged or only when they are making the to hit and to wound rolls and after?

This probably falls in the realm of "house rules", so if any players out there have encountered this situation, please tell us what your "house rule" was and how it has worked out.

Thanks.

[BuFFo]

I say yes, the gaze does work.

Close Combat starts when you assault the unit, not when you throw the first punch.

The argument would be "Where does the rules state that is when close combat starts?" and my retort would be the very same question back at counter point.

Flip a coin.

[DarkLink]

Flip a coin.

Well, roll a dice. But I digress.

The rules never clearly cover when "combat" starts. There's no way to know for sure what the correct solution is here, so you'll just have to work it out with your opponent.

[BuFFo]

Fine, roll a die.