Have You Ever Seen this Form of Cheating?

[Chris Copeland]

I was blown away by a dirty trick I saw at the semi-finals of 'Ard Boyz 40K. I observed it whilst watching a friend play. I don't play a lot of competitive games. Mostly, I play friendly "pick up" games at local games stores or multi-player games when my local club gets together.

Thus, I was surprised by a cheater I saw at 'Ard Boyz. His technique was pretty sneaky. I am used to "friendly games."

My buddy was resolving HTH combat with his opponent. He'd been hit pretty hard and he had to make a number of saves. He reached for his dice and picked them up. He said something like, "Saves. I need 4+" and then he rolled his dice in the middle of the board. He made all of his saves. My buddy said, "I'm good." His oppopnent gave a little grunt. My buddy started to move on to the next item, picking up his dice.

This is where the cheese-dick move happened.

His opponent said, "I didn't see your saves." Whaaaa? They'd just been rolled... openly... in the middle of the table.... whaaaa?

Now, I was an observer. My buddy was the player. We both fuc%ed up. There are a million responses ANYONE could have given that wouldn't have played into this prick's hand. Both of us responded poorly. I said, "He just rolled it in plain sight!" My buddy looked at me and said, "Unfortunately, you're my friend and biased." He then gave in and re-rolled the save, this time failing some...

I should have kept my mouth closed. My buddy should have said, "Sorry. I announced it. I rolled it. I did it openly. You even grunted. Too bad." However, both of us were caught by the cheater's tactic. We both gave instant reactions...

Have any of y'all run into this particular gambit before? if so, what was your reaction? In hindsight, my buddy SHOULD have said, "Too bad. I called it. I rolled it. I did it openly. You acknowledged it. Too mother-fuc%in' bad. Call a judge if you don't like it." But he didn't and ended up loosing critical troops at a critical juncture in the game.

The guy ended up taking a high place at the tournament.

The point of all this: don't be pushed around by cheaters. Don't give in for no good reason. If someone is spouting bullsh!t then stand ready to say, "No. I'm sorry, but I'm not falling for it."

See y'all around the gaming tables. Copeland

PS Has anyone ever seen this particular gambit before?

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Further clairification: the dirty cheat is this: You let your opponent make some important roll... if you don't like the outcome you just sit there and grunt as if acknowledging the roll... JUST after your opponent picks up the dice in question you declare that you didn't see the roll and demand that the roll be re-done... if your opponent is new, shocked, or foolish they give in to your demand and (hopefully) score a new roll more to your liking on the next go round...

My buddy clearly stated he was rolling the dice. He did it loudly. He proceeded to openly roll the dice in the middle of the board. he did not quickly pick up the dice. It was only JUST after he'd picked up the dice the the other guy said anything. That is what makes this particular form of nonsense so subtle. The cheater was not the guy who loudly declared his rolls and then openly rolled in the middle of the board... the cheater was the guy who grunted as if he'd seen the rolls and then pretended that he hadn't and demanded that his opponent re-roll a bunch of saves he'd already openly made!

In HINDSIGHT it seems clear that the response should have been some form of "whatever" but both of us are new enough to have been drawn in by the trick.

[The Plastic Surgeon]

Wow this one's new. That takes some balls to blatantly call the sky red when it's blue!

I don't think that as an observer you screwed up, your mate did by giving in and giving the prick ammo by saying you're biased! Someone should smash that guy's army with a hammer, no, make HIM smash them with a hammer :p

[BuFFo]

1) You didn't do anything wrong here. I don't understand why you think you did. You speak up and be heard.

2) Your friend was the weak willed one and should have just refused and moved on, or called a judge. End of story.

Don't ever walk away from a game feeling like you did something wrong when you weren't the cheater.

Did you guys slash his tires after the tourney?

[StrikerFox]

Did you guys slash his tires after the tourney?

HAH! good one.. but yeah..

as buffo said, its not your fault as you yourself did speak up. if you DIDNT say anything, then i woulda been mad at you if i was your friend.. atleast you got his back.

and yes, i myself have run across this myself.. SSEEVERRRALL times.. with a particular person...

he even goes as far as doing something like.. shooting phase over.. now on to assualt phase! charging here, here here.. move in move in, counter charge countercharge, etc..... .... ... OH! crap! i forgot to shoot my dark reapers! holon a sec.. *grabs small blast template* now i woulda done this .. so lemme just do it..

for a good 2 minutes i was saying his name, and going, no... nooo.. noo nooo.. noooo.. cmon.. nooo.. nooo.. NOOOOOO... etc.. finally hes like.. ah forget it.. ill shoot that squad next turn..

i mean... ****. im friendly enough to say, ok, BEFORE he makes any assault moves or declarations of any sort.. but once you start moving guys... its assault... XD but yeah, he did the same dice crap to me in my first RTT.. even said HIS vindicator could shoot me right after deployment (no one moved) but mine COULDNT..... so yeah.. i was a noob.. no more!!!!!

[Slaanesh]

Let him play against my eldar i have ways to tick people who play like this off so badly they will eather A)Smash there own army B)start yelling at the table C)Beat me to death with my Wraithguard. (Why do people always try c????)

[BuFFo]

lol

I don't mind it if my opponent goes into assault, but then immediately realizes an error and goes back into shooting, but if he already does an assault action, I tend to frown on it unless the person is a friend or has a cool attitude during the game.

If you are a cool guy, you can get away with murder with me, but if you are a prick, my patience runs thin fast for crap like that.

[warpcrafter]

I figured out a foolproof way to prevent crap like that from happening years ago. Roll the dice and then take away all of the failed rolls, and finally ANNOUNCE in a loud and clear voice the number of successful rolls, two or three times if necessary until the other guy perks up, and then only when the roll has been verified by a whole hell of a lot more than a grunt do you move on with the game. If he tries that again, give him two words. "Keep up!"

[Slaanesh]

I figured out a foolproof way to prevent crap like that from happening years ago. Roll the dice and then take away all of the failed rolls, and finally ANNOUNCE in a loud and clear voice the number of successful rolls, two or three times if necessary until the other guy perks up, and then only when the roll has been verified by a whole hell of a lot more than a grunt do you move on with the game. If he tries that again, give him two words. "Keep up!"

Or Invest in a cattle prod for those opponents who don't pay attention;)

[Starion]

Saw some almost similar nasty cheating a few years ago in a Conflict tourney in Bristol. Guy on the next table to me was playing Tau, with FW squads having a leader + 2 shield drones. Unit gets shot by AP 4 (or better) weaponry, then the Tau dude procedes to claim shield drone inv saves on all the shots, and removes the failed saves from the squad...wtf? Two shield drones do not an entire squad an inv save give!
Shoulda said something, but it wasn't my game, and was needed 'back on my table' anyway at that point.

[Chris Copeland]

I feel I screwed up by playing into the guy's hands. As has been pointed out, the correct response should have been, "Whatever. Keep up. Call a judge if you don't like it." My comment and then my friend's acknowledgement that I couldn't be the one to "vouch" that the rolls had been made took the conversation down the road the cheater wanted to go. My friend who was playing and I ended up validating this guy's gambit instead of just saying, "No!"

Ahh well. Live and learn. Die and forget it all.

[JuiceSpringsteen!]

Not only have i played a guy that did this to me several times, but he had the cajones to roll his dice into a cities of death building and complained when i called him on it.

[Chris Copeland]

Awesomesauce! Oh well... no teacher like life. Now I know to look out for this garbage... :)

[oni]

It's crap like this that deters me from tournaments.

[AdamHarry]

You should know that the guy that did this didnt end up winning anything and wont be going to round 3 unless several people drop infront of him.

Don't feel guilty for calling a judge over next time either, they are there to settle rules disputes and mediate between two parties...it's sorta their job.

Jwolf had posted a while back an editorial about some common courtesy protocols for playing strangers. simple things like picking up misses instead of hits, going over terrain and cover saves before the game, giving the player the benifit of the doubt, etc...I hope he adds that to the FAQ...


It's crap like this that deters me from tournaments.

It's a small percentage of players that pull crap like this.

At the tourney this happened at, we had 31 people turn up. we only had the judge get called over about 4 times. 4 times All day. and i remember which 3 players that should have had a judge watch them like a hawk. now it's only a small sample of players but thats still less that 10% of the players that pull cheaty crap.

overall it was a very friendly tourney for such a high stress level. wish i could have played in it instead of watching the store :( I know i would have enjoyed playing just about everyone there too. Thats why i'm pumped to goto BoLScon.

Don't be afraid of the tourney scene. Know the rules, know your army and dont be afraid to get a Judge. Oh, and never ask the guy across or next to you for a rules clarification. get a judge.

[Commissar Lewis]

By Freya, man that was low. I give you guys credit, original poster, for keeping your cool. If someone pulled that crap with me I'd have gotten... vocal. Vulgarly vocal you might say. Not that I'm a jerkass or anything, but I'm 1/3 Irish which makes me a Ferrari of pissed off. I go from calm to livid in 3.5 seconds.

But honestly, though that was straight up BS there. In a tournament one really should be attentive.

[Inquisitor Soren]

To be completely honest, this happens(-ed) to me like clockwork with two players at my LGS, maybe its because I'm young, maybe they just do it because they get their kicks in such poor ways. IDK IDC, but it almost killed the hobby for me, my first games, the first against Necrons (very end of 4th ed.) and the second against Imperial Guard (pre-5th-ed codex, just over into 5th ed rules), were quite blatant when I called them on it they accused me instead trying to cheat, later I found from the Game Store owner that they do this regularly and is the reason neither of them has any regular players other than the several newbies, myself included, that tend to trickle in. I've since stopped playing them and had a lot more fun, with the several other players that frequent the store along with several of my older brothers friends, which I'm thankful for playing me and making me a better a player because of it.

The point is I've learned that you just ignore those people, if they have such poor self-esteem as to need to cheat then that is their business and they probably need to reexamine their lives. Though I'm fairly sure as I won't be heading to any tournaments to soon, Hyper-competitiveness is a bit of a turn off for me and if this is more prevalent in tournaments no thanks.

[entendre_entendre]

this is why u call a judge over in a dispute, so you can smack the cheater with the HAMMER OF GAME JUSTICE (as opposed to any other large hammer you may have lying around, as this is a much better resolution, and a far more legal one :p)
on a side note: not all disputes are because of cheaters, so a smacking with the HAMMER OF GAME JUSTICE may or may not happen :(

[Chris Copeland]

Adam, thanks for the info... thanks also to everyone for the advice. The thing about this ploy is it's subtlety. It's not a cheat that involves moving models extra. It doesn't involve hiding or manipulating your own dice. It doesn't even involve misinterpereting the rules.

It is straight-up fast talk flim-flam! Heck, if someone calls you on it you can just bat your eyes and say, "I'm sorry Judge. I was just asking him to roll so I could see the results." The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that the guy's thought process went something like this: this guy is a rube. I think I'll try out Ploy #14 and see if it sticks...

My friend (the guy actually in the game) and I (the observer) WERE big enough rubes that we gave responses that played right into this guy's hands. The rest is history. In the end, it was a valuable lesson to learn. Neither of us will be quite as Polyannish next go round.

I originally posted asking if anyone has ever seen this particular gambit before. I also asked around my LGS and on a local board dedicated to gamers in my area. The answer: YES! A LOT of people try this particular bit of flim-flam... and many a veteran player has told me, "Never stand for it."

As for the rest of the tournament: it was great fun! The folks running the show were a hoot and the tourney appeared to be well run. I had a good time watching my friends, meeting new people, and generally enjoying the gaming scene.

See y'all around the gaming tables!