Stormtrooper scatter?

[Wolf von Fenris]

Maybe it has been asked before, but can stormtroopers with the airborne special ops (reroll scatter when deepstrike) also use it when deep striking from a flat out moving valkyrie?

I'd say so, since it's deepstrike, but my opponent says they can't, since they don't use their own deep strike special rule.

[Fellend]

No they can not, They are grav-chute inserting of a valkyrie. Which follows the same rule as deepstriking for the placement of the units but it is infact NOT a deep strike.

[Specialist Blax]

I say they can have played them as such all the time. In fact it used to be on GW website is stormtrooper tactics.
They enter as if deep striking so gain all of their abilities.

As to the grav chuting Storm troopers deep strike by using their grav chutes same as Elysians do. Just they do it from higher altitude.

[Javin]

PG 56 of the IG codex under the Valks rules, paragraph called Grav Shut Insertion states : If the valk has moved flat out, passengers may still disembark. A point must be nominated along the flight path. Deploy squad 'as if' they have deep stuck at that point. Note ANY unit in the valk can do this not just storm troopers.


Page 46 of the IG Codex under the Storm trooper rules, paragraph Specail operations states: Allows ST's to re-roll scatter when deep striking.

I would say they could use their re roll since they are using deep strike rules.

[DarkLink]

This can be argued either way, simply because GW has yet to figure out that "as if" is rather imprecise. Seriously, they nrrd to hire PP to write their rules. Then we'd never have this problem.

[Fellend]

They should just have their army of lawyers look over the codexes.

The entire rule:
Grav Chute Insertion: If the Valkyrie has moved flat out, the passengers may still disembark, but they must do so as follows. Nominate any point over which the valkyrie or vendetta has moved over and deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point. If the unit scatters every model must immidiately take a dangerous terrain test. If any of the models cannot be deployed, the unit is destroyed as is described in the 1-2 result on the Deep Strike Mishap table.


So my argument for the fact that they may not use their reroll is simple. It's not a deepstrike. It shares certain aspects with a deepstrike but there's also alot of different things about it.

1: if you scatter, you must take a dangerous terrain test. This is not a normal deep strike
2: if any of the models cannot be deployed it automatically gets the 1-2 result. Not just roll on the table as with a normal deep strike.

I assume the rule is written like this because they don't want to waste half a page explaning the same mechanics that are already in the main rulebook. If it was intended to be a deepstrike it could have been written as "The transported unit may deepstrike onto the board on any point which the valkyrie or vendetta has moved over"

The airborne assault says it allows them to reroll the dice when they deep strike. Not when performing actions that share some of the same rules as a deep strike.

My five cents. It can of course be read the completely different and we'll never find an answer but still, it wasted 10 minutes to write this anything is better than studying.

[DarkLink]

So my argument for the fact that they may not use their reroll is simple. It's not a deepstrike. It shares certain aspects with a deepstrike but there's also alot of different things about it.


Well, I agree with that. But "as if deepstriking" can also be argued to mean "treat it exactly like any other deepstrike". Hence the issue.

However, can Blood Angels use DoA with Skies of Blood? I don't recall, but GW may have changed the wording to explicitly prevent or allow it. Or not:rolleyes:.

[Tynskel]

Well, I agree with that. But "as if deepstriking" can also be argued to mean "treat it exactly like any other deepstrike". Hence the issue.

However, can Blood Angels use DoA with Skies of Blood? I don't recall, but GW may have changed the wording to explicitly prevent or allow it. Or not:rolleyes:.

Yes, p.38 C:BA.

I lean to 'as if' as 'is'.

Storm Troopers are supposed to be Elite- and they can choose what special rules they are using. Re-roll deep strike, because they jump outta valkyries, whether it is a HALO or a LALO jump.

[BuFFo]

Roll a die;

1,2, and 3 - Yes they can reroll scatter

4,5, and 6 - No they can't reroll scatter

[Tynskel]

Roll a die;

1,2, and 3 - Yes they can reroll scatter

4,5, and 6 - No they can't reroll scatter

That would be for during a game-- you didn't discuss the rules and you need a quick fix.

Currently, I am not in a game, and that's why I am discussing this rule.


As for application, anything where 'as if' is written, treat it as 'is'. That's how I treat it-- consistency across the board.

[Fellend]

See the "as if" = "is" only works if you read that snippet of the rule. If you read the rule in it's entirety, it point out several things which seperates it from a deep strike.

The fact that they are elite matters little to rules. That's mere fluff.
The rule actually says that the deployment is the only thing related to the deep strike and then again, that in case of mishap see the the 1-2 result. If it was a deep strike they could simply have said that it was a deep strike, BUT if this is what seperates it.

Grav Chute Insertion: If the Valkyrie has moved flat out, the passengers may still disembark, but they must do so as follows.
First sentence: Says it allows them to disembark despite moving flat out. There is however special rules: So this is a Special type of embarking not a type of deep strike.

Nominate any point over which the valkyrie or vendetta has moved over and deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point.
Second sentence: Explains the mechanics of deployment from during this special disembarkation, See the rules for deepstrike deployment

If the unit scatters every model must immidiately take a dangerous terrain test. If any of the models cannot be deployed, the unit is destroyed as is described in the 1-2 result on the Deep Strike Mishap table.
Third and fourth sentence. Explains rules for this special disembarktion. Several things here are pointed out as not following the rules for deep strike allthough it has some simular effects.


"If you wish to use this "deep strike option" the units must start in reserve(even if you are playing a special mission where reserves rule isn't being used) roll for the arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy them as follows."
-Main Rulebook p.95

So if they are to deep strike they MUST start in reserve, and roll for arrival according to the reserve rules. So clearly this is special disembarkation rule. and not a deepstrike unless you want to claim that they need to roll for reserves as they disembark the vehicle. Also this would mean that in games where deep strike is not allowed grav chute insertion would be forbidden as well.

In short. They only thing they have common is the rule for deployment and a bit about potential mishaps.

[Tynskel]

Stormravens do the same thing, but they mention DoA, because a majority of the army has it. DoA ONLY applies to Deep Striking.... hmmmm

They don't mention Storm Troopers, because that's one unit in the army of ~50. Just overlooked--- progression of rules in 40k, GW often overlooks something because, at the time, it was minor. However, because of us twerps on the Blogosphere, we argue over minor things, so the next book that comes out addresses this change.

Storm Troopers are deep striking out of the vehicle with very restricted rules of placement and scattering. However, they still scatter and deep strike, and that's what the 'Airborne Assault' rules apply to, nothing else.

[plasticaddict]

I will preface this by saying that my IG army has nine Valkyrie/Vendettas and two units of Storm Troopers so the interpretaion of this rule question has a direct impact on my play style.

As I read the rules of Airborne Insertion it seems very clear that they apply only when deploying via Deepstrike. The rules for deploying out of a Valkyrie are not Deepstrike rules, the only thing they have in common with Deepstrike are how the troops are deployed on the table. Placing troops on the table, or deploying as you will, is not the essence of Deepstrike, arriving from reserves anywhere on the table is.

IMHO I do not believe that either the RAW on RAI support using Airborne Insertion when exiting a transport.

[Tynskel]

okay...
Your 'humble opinion' is noted. I am surprised that you say that the rule is 'clear'-- all the rule states is deep strike. And the valkyrie insertion states as if 'deep strike'.

Still doesn't cover why DoA works and Airborne Assault doesn't, other than the rules don't state 'airborne assault', but I stated earlier that GW leaves out single units in this respect, because it has such a minor effect in the game.

Overall, I am more concerned with consistency. 'As if' occurs frequently in the rules-- I treat them all the same: as if = is. Pretty simple- ends arguement- benefits everyone's codex that has this issue (almost every codex has an 'as if'). Mr. BuFFo's solution is also good if this comes up in the middle of a game, roll for it, move on.

KISS= Keep it simple, stupid- this is a very effective way to look at the rulebooks for MOST (obviously, not all) cases.

[Fellend]

Well unfortunately it isn't the same. They have said in CBA that this rule applies when jumping out of stormravens, maybe because they are space marines, maybe because they wear power armour, maybe because the storm raven has better systems, who knows?

What we know is that it is allowed in C:BA but the core rules clearly states that it is not in the valkyrie, everything else is house ruling. Unless you can dig up some rule that says otherwise.

[BuFFo]

That would be for during a game-- you didn't discuss the rules and you need a quick fix.

Currently, I am not in a game, and that's why I am discussing this rule.


As for application, anything where 'as if' is written, treat it as 'is'. That's how I treat it-- consistency across the board.

Shame then, because you won't get a correct answer besides the one I gave you, especially since you dissect everything anyone says and oppose the opinion given no matter the stand they have.

Remember, 40k is not a game of absolutes, and when you search for something that is not there, you will be empty.

Eastern thinking prevails here. Bend with the wind, and let nature take its course.

[Lerra]

So if they are to deep strike they MUST start in reserve, and roll for arrival according to the reserve rules.

There are other units in the game that deep strike without starting in reserve. Librarians with Gate can move via deep strike without going back into reserve, and that is considered to be a normal deep strike. Necron Lords with Veil of Darkness can also deep strike from the tabletop.

I'm inclined to allow storm troopers their special deep strike from a valkyrie. Grav Chute Insertion just seems like a special type of deep strike to me, and storm troopers should get their special rule on all types of deep striking imo.

[plasticaddict]

There are other units in the game that deep strike without starting in reserve. Librarians with Gate can move via deep strike without going back into reserve, and that is considered to be a normal deep strike. Necron Lords with Veil of Darkness can also deep strike from the tabletop.

I'm inclined to allow storm troopers their special deep strike from a valkyrie. Grav Chute Insertion just seems like a special type of deep strike to me, and storm troopers should get their special rule on all types of deep striking imo.

The only problem is that a unit deploying from a Valkyrie is not Deepstriking, they are only placed as if they had. You do not use the Deepstrike mishap table when deploying from a Valkyrie, however you do for Gate of Infinity and Veil of Darkness. Airborne Insertion works when the unit is Deepstriking, not when it exits a vehicle.

[Tynskel]

Well unfortunately it isn't the same. They have said in CBA that this rule applies when jumping out of stormravens, maybe because they are space marines, maybe because they wear power armour, maybe because the storm raven has better systems, who knows?

What we know is that it is allowed in C:BA but the core rules clearly states that it is not in the valkyrie, everything else is house ruling. Unless you can dig up some rule that says otherwise.

word for word, Skies of Blood is the Grav Chute Insertion. except for the mention of DoA. As I said before, GW usually leaves out single units, but puts in army wide rules. Storm Troopers are single units, and DoA is an army wide rule...

Oh, you were using fluff to describe your justification--- please don't get all hard on my for me mentioning fluff too...

I also stated before, there are many many 'as if' rules. I consistently apply them as to mean the rule they are emulating with the stipulations that are applied. Airborne Assault only re-rolls deep strike scatter, and Grav Chute Insertion states 'Deep Strike'.

Skies of Blood is exactly the same--- it is 'deep strike', and because soooooooo many units have it in C:BA, GW was explicit in directly mentioning DoA. They also specifically state also you have to have Jump Packs as well.

Locator Beacons apply to the Librarian's Gate of Infinity- they both mention deep strike.

ect ect. Just easier to apply the rule than to whine about it.

[Fellend]

of course it is. There's alot of rules that are like that. But I want to see what actual rules there are. By strict raw interpitation. I honestly don't care, and I wasn't using fluff to describe anything. I was only pointing out that god knows why it's like that for BA and not Storm troopers.

The point is there is no actual rule supporting that they would get their airborne assault rule as they are infact disembarking in a special way and NOT deep striking. If there is rules to support this please point them out to me.

Using the BA which is a newer and perhaps better written codex is irrelevant, just as their storm shields are completely different from my BT ones. Their rules does not affect the storm troopers. Or should we start cross checking other codexes? Am I allowed to use their thundershields? Can I use the SM Drop pod assault instead of my BT one?

Unless there's actual rules to support the allowance of Storm Troopers to do this then there's they cannot. They are disembarking not deep striking. However in my personal view I'd allow it for fluff reasons, despite being incorrect.)

(I don't have the BA codex so if someone would be kind enought to write out the rule for reference I would appriciate it, despite being as irrelevant as it is.)

[Lord Azaghul]

Roll a die;

1,2, and 3 - Yes they can reroll scatter

4,5, and 6 - No they can't reroll scatter

Win!

And yes they can.
Why: 'cause the stupid little buggers cost 16points a piece and are otherwise worthless.

[Tynskel]

Win!

And yes they can.
Why: 'cause the stupid little buggers cost 16points a piece and are otherwise worthless.

I have to admit, that's a good reason: When you cost as much as space marines, but don't have their armor, toughness, strength, leadership, weapon skill...

Not the best justification... but...

[Tynskel]

of course it is. There's alot of rules that are like that. But I want to see what actual rules there are. By strict raw interpitation. I honestly don't care, and I wasn't using fluff to describe anything. I was only pointing out that god knows why it's like that for BA and not Storm troopers.

The point is there is no actual rule supporting that they would get their airborne assault rule as they are infact disembarking in a special way and NOT deep striking. If there is rules to support this please point them out to me.

Using the BA which is a newer and perhaps better written codex is irrelevant, just as their storm shields are completely different from my BT ones. Their rules does not affect the storm troopers. Or should we start cross checking other codexes? Am I allowed to use their thundershields? Can I use the SM Drop pod assault instead of my BT one?

Unless there's actual rules to support the allowance of Storm Troopers to do this then there's they cannot. They are disembarking not deep striking. However in my personal view I'd allow it for fluff reasons, despite being incorrect.)

(I don't have the BA codex so if someone would be kind enought to write out the rule for reference I would appriciate it, despite being as irrelevant as it is.)

I told you--- Skies of Blood is word for word the same as the Valkyrie Gave Chute Insertion--- they add a sentence in the C:BA with DoA-can use DoA as long as they have Jump Packs. If you read the DoA entry it is ONLY for Deep Strike.


The rule still mentions 'as if'. You may say no-- I just treat 'as if' as the rule with stipulations. I treat it that way for all codexes. It is easy to do so, almost everyone benefits from it.