Viability of Demons

[Attephuzad]

Hello, I have been playing warhammer for 4 years and am considering picking up another army (own Tau and Dark Angels). Ever since Demons have been released I have been wanting to pick them up as an army, but repeatedly hear how uncompetitive they are. There are 15 40k regulars at my local gaming store and non play demons, they are a pretty competitive bunch :D. I am wondering how viable Demons really are? Thanks.

[eagleboy7259]

It really depends on two things: what kind of build / which gods are you using & how dang lucky you can get. Demons are random as heck, for some people this just adds to the fun of the army, but if you're in one of those clubs that does power spamming then look somewhere else. Not to say that demons aren't capable, but you'll end up with a list that sucks all the fun and flavor out of the game and you'll still end up frusterated and pissed off when your waves, reserves, or deep strike mishaps screw you up.

Demons to host a number of super competitve units, there is hardly a poor choice in the book, merely varying degrees of awesomeness. The one area that the whole army struggles with is anti-tank; wings on MC's can't always get you into combat with Fast Skimmers. There are creative ways around this however, such as running tzeentch heralds, fiends of slaanesh, or multiple units with Bolt of Tzeentch. The most common competive builds mostly revolve around HQ selection - Skarbrand Khrone & Slaanesh armies, Fateweaver and/or Bluescribes w/ mass Bloodcrushers, Tallyman w/ mono nurgle. Even if you don't run exactly dedicated to one of these themes, even a more basic demon army can be competitve.

One thing I will say is that they are great-ish for beginners, because of all the inv saves, but they are difficult to master as the randomness of the army is such a huge factor and you have to learn to build and play lists that let you adjust on the fly. In my exprience, I've found that demons either table their enemy or become an epic fail. Its all in how nice the dice are to you and knowing how to play your army.

[MajorSoB]

Daemons can be very competitive, especially Nurgle lists with Epidemius as well as the Fatecrusher list which centers around Fateweavers with Bloodcrusher escorts.

Daemons are different to play in that they have their own special deployment, can be weak against armor (although monstrous creatures work well if you can get them close!), every model has a built in invulnerable save, but most importantly they scatter when coming in and sometimes you are left waiting with poor rolls for reserve. They do offer a very diverse range of models that are much less boring to paint than some other armies, but they also can be expensive since many of the models are metal not plastic.

My son has a Nurgle list that is quite solid and challenging. I also have a Slannesh based army in the works as well. I would recommend them if you are interested.

[Commissar Lewis]

I myself one day want to start a Daemons army, mostly Slaanesh/Khorne. I've seen large succubus models out there from other companies that would make great Demon Princesses, if you will. As well as other companies' female demons for Daemonettes, because I adamantly despise the new Daemonette models.

[Hugz4Genestealers]

I adamantly despise the new Daemonette models.

Sorry, had to bring this up, doesn't EVERYONE hate the new daemonette models? I agree the old ones were vastly superior in a ...uh, number of ways.

[MajorSoB]

EVERYONE despises the new deamonettes except the uptight soccer moms who used to complain that their son's models had breasts! All my Slannesh army has the old GOOD deamonettes!

[Commissar Lewis]

EVERYONE despises the new deamonettes except the uptight soccer moms who used to complain that their son's models had breasts! All my Slannesh army has the old GOOD deamonettes!

Yeah, I swear that GW employee that said the new ones were good only said so because he was paid to. I still maintain that the new ones suck so hard they could suck a golf ball through a garden hose.

[Vindur]

I actually don't hate them. I think they are good just went in a different direction. Old ones are what people see whereas the current ones are what they look like beneath the glamour.

That being said I will agree the old ones are better and the new steeds for the seekers look dire.

[eagleboy7259]

EVERYONE despises the new deamonettes except the uptight soccer moms who used to complain that their son's models had breasts! All my Slannesh army has the old GOOD deamonettes!

Well they do come 10 to a box for $22 compared to the $45 for 10 metal minis we had in t he past... and thats where I run out of good points about them. Although the new seeker models look awesome IMOP although I'll never buy them as I'm Khrone and Tzeentch all the way

[Melissia]

I was gonna start a Slaanesh-Khorne army (I like the style of those two units best), but then I saw the new Daemonettes models and was filled with murderous rage for whatever s***f***er sculpted them.

The new seeker models are god-awful ugly, even worse than normal Daemonette minis...

[RogueGarou]

I will add some of the new Seekers to my army as I never fielded them before the Codex came out and did not get them before they went off the shelves. However, since I don't play in tournaments, I am planning on using some other minis for my Seekers, as well. The Fiendish Offspring models from Gamezone look pretty good and I have had my eye on some of them for awhile.

[DaveLL]

I'm actually fond of the plastic daemonette sculpts. The rules for the models, not so much, but the sculpts are fine. My thought on them: don't try to make them look human. They're demonic, so make them look demonic. As they are, they remind me of one of my ex-girlfriends when she got mad... ;)

Anyway, daemons have some large and fairly obvious problems that make them have difficulties in competitive play. This isn't to say they can't be competitive - plenty of people tell me they do fine or even very well with them - but there are things you'd need to think about before you bought even one model. If you're going to face significant amounts of mech, especially fast and/or heavy mech, you'll have to tailor your list specifically for taking it down. I don't run Tallyman lists, but I have yet to see one that makes me think it could deal with a good and intelligently-run list of mech eldar, mech tau, mech BA, mech... well, you get the picture. (Sure, if your opponents aren't getting out of their vehicles or are shooting you from far away, they're not doing much damage to you, but it also works the other way - and they get mobility and tank shocking on their side.)

Realistically, a significant number of daemon models are anti-foot-MEQ specialists. Play with them against foot MEQs or foot eldar and you likely win. Play with them against many other armies and you likely lose. Randomness comes into play, too, as does truly thinking out your force better than I did when I started - but I'm convinced the overall pattern is pretty clear.

[MajorSoB]

Dave, while Daemons do have somewhat of a weakness to mech lists, a good build takes that into account by adding monstrous creatures, soul grinders, as well as screamers and flamers that "don't suck"against armor. Please remember that everything Slaanesh has rending, while not the OTT powerhouse it once was, it still has the ability to take down light to medium armor as well.

If you are looking for a list that does everything well, "the swiss army knife" of armies, then play Space Marines, but trust me Daemons are more that viable, and can be pretty damn solid in the hands of a skilled player.

[Boss_Grabnutz]

Theya re, in my experience, far too easy to kill when it comes to their basic troops, simpley because of their awful armor saves. Invul. is nice, but 5+ invulnerable is still a failure 2/3rds of the time. They are not much harder to kill than orks. And since you can't assault with them off the first wave deepstirke (unlike simple lesser chaos marine daemons), a gunline army makes very short work of the basic troops.

I'd say their worst foe would be orks or nids (i.e. hoardes) , just because of the voulume of attacks the daemons will take. Agaisnt elite armies, like Deathwing, they will excell.

Nothing scares me more that seeing Soulcrushers on the battlefield though...a meaner, tougher and more dynamic Defiler.....

[mynameisgrax]

I play daemons, and first and foremost: they're not easy. They're an elite army (similar to Eldar and Chaos Marines) that rely on small and specialized units to get the job done. As others have mentioned, they're very random, and this will either delight or infuriate you, depending upon your personality. Personally, I like them.

However, I have to disagree with a couple of the previous posts:

1. I like the plastic daemonettes. Not only are pewter troops evil (I'm a cheapskate by nature), but they're supposed to be twisted and horrifying, in a bizarrely feminine sort of way. Yes, they aren't naked voluptuous women, but that'd just make things a little weird. I don't need T & A daemonettes. I've got a girlfriend.

2. Pure nurgle Epidemus lists aren't really competitive. They can be fun, but they can't stand up to the Imperial Guard any more. I found this out the hard way in a recent game where my standard Epidemus list lost to a leafblower (pure long range shooting) list without inflicting a single casualty to his side. It's just too easy for them to shoot Daemon Princes of Nurgle to death before they get close (especially since their toughness bonus means nothing against lasguns and anything with S8+), and without the DP, there's no way to get the tally up.

From experience, I'd say the most competitive armies are:

Fatecrusher (Fateweaver and a ton of bloodcrushers)

Pure Tzeentch (4 Heralds in chariots with bolt, lots of pink horrors, flamers, and DP w/bolt)

Slaanesh/Nurgle (Keepers of Secrets, lots of fiends, a unit of daemonettes or two, some seekers of slaanesh, plaguebearers to grab objectives, and either Daemon Princes of Nurgle or Soul Grinders w/Phlegm)


Slaanesh/Nurgle works the best at lower point levels (500-1500), Pure Tzeentch works best at low-moderate point levels (1000-2000), and Fatecrusher works best at the highest point levels (2000+).

[DaveLL]

Dave, while Daemons do have somewhat of a weakness to mech lists, a good build takes that into account by adding monstrous creatures, soul grinders, as well as screamers and flamers that "don't suck"against armor. Please remember that everything Slaanesh has rending, while not the OTT powerhouse it once was, it still has the ability to take down light to medium armor as well.

If you are looking for a list that does everything well, "the swiss army knife" of armies, then play Space Marines, but trust me Daemons are more that viable, and can be pretty damn solid in the hands of a skilled player.
That's what I meant by saying that you have to tailor your lists specifically for taking out mech. Even then, remember that fast mech (i.e., all the armies I mentioned) is very hard to damage using CC. Not impossible, but difficult. As for flamers - each flamer has a 1 in 6 chance of stunning or immobilizing a vehicle, or 1 in 12 chance if the vehicle has anti-stunning capabilities. Worth it? Depends on the vehicle, but for 35 points each it's unlikely. Especially given that they almost always die immediately afterwards.

[eagleboy7259]

From experience, I'd say the most competitive armies are:

You forgot Skarbrand w/ Khrone and Slaanesh - possibly the most deadly CC army in the game. You also have to remember that the most competitive demon builds aren't mono-god or even two but the super unfluffy pantheon of demons armies that take a little from everyone. Tallyman can still be competitive, I would base competiiveness just off of one army, espeically if that army is the guard. Its like the stupid instant win button in this game that gives douches the chance to feel good about themselves while completely neglecting the hobby aspect of this game and fielding hordes of unpainted guardsmen and tanks. Obviously this doesn't apply to every guard player, just those select players. Anyway if you want to play like that then why not do Razorwolf or Mechdar spam and such every ounce of flavor out of the game?

Demons can handle mech about as good as anyone else, you just have to take the units equipped to do so. Horrors, Fiends, Soul Grinders, Winged or Tzeentch Princes, Tzeentch Heralds, and Greater Demons are where your armor popping be at. Troops are fragile but the tote awful nice abilities. If you're that worried about camping on objectives then take some plaguebearers, but demon armies can still table most opponents. Their troops are arguibly the weakest choice in the book (duh) but they aren't that bad, even a unit of bloodletters shot down to half strength can still murder a unit of terminators.

[DarkLink]

You also have to remember that the most competitive demon builds aren't mono-god or even two but the super unfluffy pantheon of demons armies that take a little from everyone.


Not unfluffy anymore. GW is the one who writes the fluff, after all.



Demons can handle mech about as good as anyone else, you just have to take the units equipped to do so. Horrors, Fiends, Soul Grinders, Winged or Tzeentch Princes, Tzeentch Heralds, and Greater Demons are where your armor popping be at.

Not really. Other armies have an abundance of melta weapons, and plenty of medium to long range AT.

Daemons have neither (with the exception of the Soul Grinder). They rely on bolt of Tzeentch (which isn't that great), monstrous creatures or rending in close combat (which isn't that great), and Soul Grinders (which have a poor BS, so many don't even bother).

They can take down mech. But they are definately weaker at it than most armies.

[BuFFo]

I have yet to face a Demon army.

I need someone in my area to pick this army up. Sounds like a fun army to go up against!

[mynameisgrax]

You never have to limit yourself to 1-2 Gods when you make your list. Many of the best Daemon units (Bloodcrushers, Fiends, Plaguebearers, Heralds of Tzeentch chariots) can work well in any list.

I've honestly never tried Skarbrand/Slaanesh. Isn't Skarbrand much slower than the rest of the army? It just seems that keeping everything within range of his ability would slow your army down, eliminating most of the point of using a Slaanesh army. How do you build that sort of list?

An Epidemus list can still win and be a lot of fun, but if you almost always auto-lose against leafblower IG lists, then you aren't competitive.

In fact, the definition of 'competitive' these days pretty much seems to be: able to beat IG Leafblower and Ork Nob lists.

Epidemus lists can beat the nobz, but not the leafblower.

[SombreBrotherhood]

I'll just go ahead and risk criticism by saying that I love Skarbrand. yeah, he doesn't have wings, but he is fleet, so he's definitely slower but not by such a huge margin that it should cripple your army. Plus, his aura has a 24" radius, so your coverage should be pretty good.

I would suppose that you forward deploy Skarbrand and let your faster Slaanesh units run through his aura on their way to combat so that he isn't attempting to chase them. A real danger is letting your seekers/fiends charge out from under his aura with their awesome speed.

On the topic of demon troops choices, I concur with reservations - yes, my favorite Bloodletters die terribly easily, but if more than a few get to charge you, the 'oh no' meter rapidly pegs the other direction. I run mine in fluffy 8-man squads, and the carnage that even three or four can unleash against units w/o invulnerable saves always makes me smile.

I can't speak for Slaanesh or Nurgle as I'm still building up those detachments, but Nurgle DPs w/ noxious touch/wings/iron hide FTW - they aren't as dependable against vehicles w/ S5, but WS7 and 2+ to wound regardless of toughness (and re-rolling against anything T5 or less) mocks anything with a wounds characteristic

[eagleboy7259]

Not really. Other armies have an abundance of melta weapons, and plenty of medium to long range AT.

Daemons have neither (with the exception of the Soul Grinder). They rely on bolt of Tzeentch (which isn't that great), monstrous creatures or rending in close combat (which isn't that great), and Soul Grinders (which have a poor BS, so many don't even bother).

They can take down mech. But they are definately weaker at it than most armies.

I think people play up melta much more than is actually out there. Sure you do have the dreaded Vulkan spam army which has melta comming out its nose, and other offenders like veteran squads for guard, but most everybody else don't really get that much melta. Sure Eldar have fire dragons, but thats not a melta gun its a fusion gun and with S6 you have to be hella close to really kill anything and on the next turn they die usually thanks to T3 and 4+ save. Necrons and Grey Knights have way less anti-tank, same thing with any Deathwing or Loganwing build. I can think of a number of other armies that have simular anti-tank abilities, Tyranids, Black Templars, Orks, etc. Maybe Demons aren't Vulkan spam or Guard but they definitely run middle of the pack with it, if not a little bit better than the joe blow


I'll just go ahead and risk criticism by saying that I love Skarbrand. yeah, he doesn't have wings, but he is fleet, so he's definitely slower but not by such a huge margin that it should cripple your army. Plus, his aura has a 24" radius, so your coverage should be pretty good.

I just started building up my Slaanesh and Skarbrand is awesome. In 1500pts I run him, a Keeper of Secrets, 2 Soul Grinders, 2 small packs of fiends and bloodcrushers and then as many demonettes and bloodletters as I can. I like pavene of slaanesh, it gets bloodcrushers and other big nastys into assault and the points I save by taking the KoS definately pays off.

[DaveLL]

I think people play up melta much more than is actually out there. Sure you do have the dreaded Vulkan spam army which has melta comming out its nose, and other offenders like veteran squads for guard, but most everybody else don't really get that much melta. Sure Eldar have fire dragons, but thats not a melta gun its a fusion gun and with S6 you have to be hella close to really kill anything and on the next turn they die usually thanks to T3 and 4+ save. Necrons and Grey Knights have way less anti-tank, same thing with any Deathwing or Loganwing build. I can think of a number of other armies that have simular anti-tank abilities, Tyranids, Black Templars, Orks, etc. Maybe Demons aren't Vulkan spam or Guard but they definitely run middle of the pack with it, if not a little bit better than the joe blow
True, which is why whether various daemon lists are competitive depends in part on what your definition of "competitive" is. "Can frequently beat the guys who play nearby, who don't have enough money to update to vehicle-and-melta-heavy lists or prefer lists that aren't vehicle and melta heavy or have vehicle-and-melta-heavy lists but just aren't good with them"? "Can reliably beat all these armies, and I refuse to play the other ones"?
'Nids may have some difficulty with fast tanks, but they do have at least somewhat reliable models for it. Orks suffer for lack of it, though slightly less with the deffrolla update, as do other armies you've mentioned. But I don't think anybody would try to seriously claim necrons or pure GK's are competitive...
"Competitive" to me means that you have to have a decent shot at taking out any list that wasn't specifically designed to screw over your codex.

[DarkLink]

I think people play up melta much more than is actually out there.

Regardless, most other armies have much more ready access to dedicated anti-tank weapons than Daemons, even non-melta-spam lists.

[eagleboy7259]

True, which is why whether various daemon lists are competitive depends in part on what your definition of "competitive" is. "Can frequently beat the guys who play nearby, who don't have enough money to update to vehicle-and-melta-heavy lists or prefer lists that aren't vehicle and melta heavy or have vehicle-and-melta-heavy lists but just aren't good with them"? "Can reliably beat all these armies, and I refuse to play the other ones"?
'Nids may have some difficulty with fast tanks, but they do have at least somewhat reliable models for it. Orks suffer for lack of it, though slightly less with the deffrolla update, as do other armies you've mentioned. But I don't think anybody would try to seriously claim necrons or pure GK's are competitive...
"Competitive" to me means that you have to have a decent shot at taking out any list that wasn't specifically designed to screw over your codex.

Well if you want to talk what is competitive and whats do you want to talk adepticon? :D

Bill Kim took this army list: http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Bill-Kim-1850-Daemons.pdf

And finished 3rd place overall http://www.adepticon.org/?page_id=1484

Thats just one example. That player also won at Bashcon in 2009 using this list: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/2/24/20974_sm-BashCon%2520Chaos%2520Daemons.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/231283.page&h=365&w=600&sz=52&tbnid=g-yMOtn3Hq7JjM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dchaos%2Bdaemons&hl=en&usg=__6eOyqHPzq10B1Y2Kfc1T0gymJ30=&ei=91j7S7j1IouKNZmwlYgC&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=5&ct=image&ved=0CCYQ9QEwBA

[Commissar Lewis]

In my opinion, there are no armies that aren't viable - it's largely up to the player and their individual list, and even the list itself isn't the biggest factor. Yeah, some armies, namely the older ones, might not have all the new powerful bells and whistles, but they are still playable.

I dunno, I'm rambling. Gonna go back to playing Bayonetta. Emperor bless Japan, man. Like Devil May Cry, except with a hot chick whose clothing flies off, getting down to skimpy levels, when using special attacks for a reason I do not fully understand. Not complainin', though. Not merely eye candy; a whole damn eye candy shop.

[Lerra]

Hehe I'm glad someone mentioned Bill Kim. I watched the game that Bill Kim (daemons) played against Andrew Ferris (Orks) 3rd round at Adepticon. Going into the 3rd round, the Ork player was #1 and the daemons player was #2, so I was hoping to catch the game that decided the tournament winner (the Ork player is also a friend of mine). It was a really great game. They ended up basically tying and knocking each other out of contention, but it easily could have gone either way with a few changed die rolls. Chaos Daemons very nearly won the day =)

Daemons are powerful in the hands of a skilled player. Bill Kim played a list that was mostly Khorne. 2 squads of bloodcrushers, skulltaker on a juggernaut, flamers and 2 soulgrinders. No Fateweaver. The flamers immobilized Gahzghkull's battlewagon at the top of turn 1 and were definitely the MVPs of that game.

[eagleboy7259]

Hehe I'm glad someone mentioned Bill Kim. I watched the game that Bill Kim (daemons) played against Andrew Ferris (Orks) 3rd round at Adepticon. Going into the 3rd round, the Ork player was #1 and the daemons player was #2, so I was hoping to catch the game that decided the tournament winner (the Ork player is also a friend of mine). It was a really great game. They ended up basically tying and knocking each other out of contention, but it easily could have gone either way with a few changed die rolls. Chaos Daemons very nearly won the day =)

Daemons are powerful in the hands of a skilled player. Bill Kim played a list that was mostly Khorne. 2 squads of bloodcrushers, skulltaker on a juggernaut, flamers and 2 soulgrinders. No Fateweaver. The flamers immobilized Gahzghkull's battlewagon at the top of turn 1 and were definitely the MVPs of that game.

Bill Kim loves his Blue Scribes, nothing more dangerous than using Pavane of Slaanesh to put a unit within charge distance of those usually too slow Bloodcrushers =D

[DaveLL]

Which, again, is why I'm not saying they can't be "competitive" for many people's versions of the word. They can. But they're tricky, and to a non-trivial extent they're a rock-paper-scissors-type codex.