MORALE while falling back ... redundant?

[davitia]

Here's another question.

Supose you have a unit falling back in the enemy turn.
Your enemy shoot that unit and makes 25% casualties.
As the rule says, troops who are falling back automatically fail all Morale checks, ¿does this mean that your unit have to make another falling back move?

I really dont think so, but I cant explain my friend why.

HERES AN EXPLANATION OF ONE PLAYER.
The reason that you don't have to do another Morale check is they are already falling back from a failed Morale check. An example of why you don't do this: A tank has 4 Pent hits on it. First roll for the dmg table is a 6 (Wrecked-Explosion) why bother doing the other 3 rolls? You already got the worst cause scenario so rolling the rest of the table effects is silly and a waste of time. (Maybe not the best example :P )

So, why make them do another Morale Check for falling back if you still haven't had a chance to regroup? Seems redundant.

BUT OTHER PLAYERS SAY that they have to fall back again.


So what are your thoughts?

[Tynskel]

For the tank, technically you roll all 4 dice a the same time because all of the shooting occurs at the same time from the same unit. If you rolled 4 explosion results, you technically apply 4 explosion results (Ka-Blewie!) p.67

p.45 states
units make a fall back move immediately upon failing a moral test. p.46 Troops falling back automatically fail all morale checks except those to regroup.

Example:
The enemy tank shocks you: you auto fail check, move 2d6 (or 3d6 for fast units). Then, during the shooting phase, you take 25% casualties. At the end of the phase you auto fail the morale check, and move 2d6 (or 3d6 for fast units).

There is nothing that states that the enemy could not just keep tank shocking you until you run off the board.

The rules are designed that once a unit breaks, they are pretty screwed. The fail-safe against this is that almost everything in the game has high leadership.

This is also why 'Fearless' is almost always better than 'And They Shall Know No Fear'.

[DarkLink]

This is also why 'Fearless' is almost always better than 'And They Shall Know No Fear'.

At least during the shooting phase, anyways.

[Tynskel]

you also auto-pass the tank shock. And are immune to a variety of psychic powers.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, we get to ignore a lot of annoying stuff. No Retreat sucks, though. I think it should apply to everyone who passes their moral in combat after losing, or should be gotten rid of completely.

[Lerra]

Slightly OT, but if you roll multiple "Destroyed - Explodes" results, does the vehicle blow up multiple times, or just once?

[DarkLink]

Just once, I believe. Essentially, if you suffer a Vehicle-Explodes, it explodes. It doesn't matter how many explodes results you suffer, just that you suffer one.

[Nabterayl]

Yeah, we get to ignore a lot of annoying stuff. No Retreat sucks, though. I think it should apply to everyone who passes their moral in combat after losing, or should be gotten rid of completely.
I think they should have just let you take a Leadership test, and only suffer No Retreat wounds if you failed.

[DarkLink]

I think they should have just let you take a Leadership test, and only suffer No Retreat wounds if you failed.

Or that, yeah.

[Tynskel]

Just once, I believe. Essentially, if you suffer a Vehicle-Explodes, it explodes. It doesn't matter how many explodes results you suffer, just that you suffer one.

I am not sure it explodes only once. The rules don't state so. All they state is to roll damage and apply the result. If you got 4 pens, and then rolled 4 explodes on the table, there is nothing stating that it does not explode 4 times.

Normally, the vehicle gets something like this: Stunned, Shaken, Weapon Destroyed, Explode. Realistically, you apply each one to the tank, but, in this case, only one matters: Explode.

Remember, this is all from attacks that happened at the same time.

Treat them as secondary explosions, I guess! (Ammunition, Fuel, High Pressure Gasses, Unstable Cores, ect.)

Ka-Blewie!

This is why I roll my grenades separate from the Powerfist- it maybe faster to do it all at once, but there is an order of events (either that, or I make it clear that the powerfists are happining at a different initiative, but I am rolling them now for speed rollin').

[DarkLink]

Yeah, you are right, it's not really clear. I'd let my opponent do multiple explosions if they wanted. I actually think that's cooler than a single explosion. Anything that makes the game more lethal is good:D.

[Tynskel]

Yeah, you are right, it's not really clear. I'd let my opponent do multiple explosions if they wanted. I actually think that's cooler than a single explosion. Anything that makes the game more lethal is good:D.

My sentiments as well!


Ka-Boom! Sha-boom, Za-BOOM!!!!

[Mr. Black]

I believe you would only resolve one Explosion! result, at least that's how we've played it here for some years.

My logic being that once one Explosion resolves there is no longer a vehicle there, only a crater, thus the others can't really resolve anymore.

**EDIT: Just popped into my head and I will get my rulebook tomorrow to check this (4 am here), but if someone could check I believe the exact wording on explodes is something akin to "If the vehicle suffers one or more Vehicle Explosion results...". So that right there would be your answer.

[Dionysus]

Just a note. You can only force a 25% moral check roll once per round.

[Fizyx]

**EDIT: Just popped into my head and I will get my rulebook tomorrow to check this (4 am here), but if someone could check I believe the exact wording on explodes is something akin to "If the vehicle suffers one or more Vehicle Explosion results...". So that right there would be your answer.

Not seeing this in there. I've always played that you resolve multiple explosions, but the happen sequentially. So if 2 marines die on the first explosion, you only roll 8 hits for the second, etc.

I find nothing in the rule-book that clearly states one way or the other.

[Tynskel]

I believe you would only resolve one Explosion! result, at least that's how we've played it here for some years.

My logic being that once one Explosion resolves there is no longer a vehicle there, only a crater, thus the others can't really resolve anymore.

**EDIT: Just popped into my head and I will get my rulebook tomorrow to check this (4 am here), but if someone could check I believe the exact wording on explodes is something akin to "If the vehicle suffers one or more Vehicle Explosion results...". So that right there would be your answer.

The rulebook does not state that. Otherwise, I would have said only one explosion.

I don't know what ya are talking about that we have played that way for years-- maybe you have. I haven't! ;)

As I said before, the explosions are all happening at the same time-- I think it makes sense.

::Note::
I said it makes sense, but in this case, it probably doesn't matter if it pops once or twice.

[Tynskel]

Just a note. You can only force a 25% moral check roll once per round.

yes, but you can force multiple tank shocks.

[SeattleDV8]

Just a note. You can only force a 25% moral check roll once per round.

Incorrect, you can cause a morale check each phase. BRB pg.44

[Nabterayl]

Incorrect, you can cause a morale check each phase. BRB pg.44
Yeah. For instance, the following sequence is totally within the rules (though highly improbable):


Friendly Movement Phase. Squad of plasma gunners attempts to advance through Dangerous Terrain and suffers 25% casualties due to unfortunate DT tests. Squad takes a Morale test and fails, making a Fall Back Move. Squad is now Falling Back.

Friendly Shooting Phase. Squad of plasma gunners, though Falling Back, decides to shoot at an enemy unit, and suffers 25% casualties due to unfortunate Gets Hot! rolls. Squad takes a Morale test and automatically fails, making a Fall Back move.

Friendly Assault Phase. Squad is now Falling Back past a friendly psyker engaged in an assault. Friendly psyker uses a power that can be used in the Assault Phase (e.g., Holocaust), which inflicts 25% casualties on the plasma gunner squad. Squad takes a Morale test and automatically fails, making a Fall Back move.

Enemy Movement Phase. Enemy Tank #1 Tank Shocks squad. Squad takes a Morale test and automatically fails, making a Fall Back move.

Enemy Movement Phase. Enemy Tank #2 Tank Shocks squad. Squad takes a Morale test and automatically fails, making a Fall Back move.

Enemy Movement Phase. Squad's multiple Fall Back moves due to enemy Tank Shocks have forced it through Dangerous Terrain. Squad suffers 25% casualties due to unfortunate DT tests. Squad takes a Morale test and automatically fails, making a Fall Back move.

Enemy Shooting Phase. Enemy shooting causes squad to suffer 25% casualties. Squad takes a Morale test and automatically fails, making a Fall Back move.

Enemy Assault Phase. Squad is Falling Back past yet another assault involving a psyker. Psyker uses a power that can be used in the Assault Phase, which inflicts 25% casualties on the squad. Squad takes a Morale test and automatically fails, making a Fall Back move.

Friendly Movement Phase. Squad is permitted to attempt to Regroup, subject to normal Regrouping restrictions (though the likelihood of anybody surviving to this point, let alone being able to Regroup, is miniscule).

I can't think of a unit that could actually suffer all that and survive, but just to illustrate the principle, all that could happen before a unit gets a chance to Regroup.

[Tynskel]

IF you survived all of that, I think you should automatically rally--- I mean!! Look at that mess, and you didn't run off the board??!?!?!?!?

:)

[DarkLink]

Heh, at that point it's fallen back 18d6" or so at least. Roughly 63".