Enough with the Old Ones already?

[Kahoolin]

Anyone who reads the comments on Just_Me's excellent BoLS articles can probably tell what I'm about to say, but I was after some more in-depth discussion than a blog provides.

So . . . anyone else kind of sick of the Old Ones mythology? I'm not talking about anything in-universe, but purely in terms of seeing 40k as a work of fiction. To me the Old Ones mythology is cool for linking up disparate races, but I feel it has been over-applied and makes me enjoy the background less. It feels too pat. When I read the first Tau codex I thought "awesome, a race of guys who actually just evolved, instead of being created by/enemies of some ancient gods." Now even the Tau are supposedly connected with the Old Ones I'm starting to feel like it's lazy writing. Here are, in one sentence each (bet you didn't see that coming!) my reasons for not liking the ubiquity of the Old Ones in 40k fluff:

*The Old Ones are creators, meaning the species they made are not masters of their own destiny.
*Fictional characters that are not in control of their own destiny often lack something as heroes.
*There doesn't seem to be evolution in 40k any more, upsetting the sci-fi/fantasy balance too much in a setting that already has magic and wizards and glowing swords.
*Having the origins of everything purposeful as opposed to accidental makes the story seem as if it is already over and just needs to be discovered, rather than that it is happening and alive.
*I am a human and I want humans to be special and self-empowering.
*Failing that, I want someone to be special and self-empowering, as that's what escapist fantasy is for.
*It makes the galaxy seem small and closed.

Now I know that some of these points many people enjoy - it seems to me that some people love uncovering conspiracies and doing detective work, or they love gods and monsters. That's cool. I do too. But I also love escapism, and I'm starting to feel like the openness of the 40k galaxy is being squashed by too much reliance on a single trope to explain everything. I liked the Old Ones being the creators/enemies of the ancient cultures like the Eldar, Necrons and Orks. But it should have stopped with the Orks as the last, unfinished, haywire experiment. IMHO it would make the whole mythos stronger if the Humans and the Tau were naturally evolved self-created races, ascending over the declining Eldar, as they should be. The Old Ones should stick with the waning races and the ancient re-awakened evils.

It's enough to make me play nids . . . until they turn out to be made by the %^#@ Old Ones too :rolleyes:

[Schnitzel]

No worries mate, the Old One's couldn't have made the 'Nidz... It's the Outsider. :P

[Kahoolin]

No worries mate, the Old One's couldn't have made the 'Nidz... It's the Outsider. :POh how CONVENIENT *shakes fist*

[AirHorse]

Totaly agree sort of Kahoolin, suddenly everything is a product of the old ones, and what was a cool bit of ancient history has dragged itself into everything. But the redeeming part is that all of the old ones plans seem to have failed and gone out of their control, effectively handing all the created races thier own destiny to control :)

[murrburger]

I don't think it's the Old Ones, so much as it is crap like Tau/Crons that gets shoe-horned in. I remember back in 3rd edition, looking at both the books and thinking "Wow, these things are half-assed. I play Eldar, and I know I'm going to hate Tau, and on the Necrons, what the hell happened to the War in Heaven?"

The worst is that Xenology crap that 'hints' that the Harlequins created the Tau, or engineered their evolution or something. THAT is half-assed.

No hate to all the Tau/Necron players, but I really hope you guys get some new books that have lots of good fluff.

[Old_Paladin]

I like how the Old Ones work in fantasy; they set things in motion, but are wiped out before they can finish their planning (no one knows what their actual final goal was).
The taught elves and dwarves a few things (magic wise), but are killed off before they tell the elves and dwarves what to do with their lives.
The Slann know the most of what the Old Ones desired, and thus are really the only race whos lives are controlled by them; but even the Slann don't actually know the end goals, just the steps to take (up to a certain point) and hope for the best.


In 40K they have a lot more time to set their plans in motion; meaning that things seem a lot more controlled, and that everyone has a lot less control over thier own destinies.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I respect your opinion, I can see your point of view. Personally I like that mythology, it reminds me of dr who, Hp lovecraft and babylon5's backstories - so it is something that appeals to my taste. Personally I prefer alien mythology that empowers them and makes humanity look small and insignificant. I find that more exciting fantasy-wise - but I can see how that doesnt work for everyone. 40k mythology is all ambigious though - if you wanted to consider personal-canon the old ones stuff is just "mythology" then that would be my recomendation, its your 40kverse as much as anyone elses and you can take what you want.

[eldargal]

If you think the Old Ones have gotten old, just wait until the next edition introduces the Young Ones:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Young_Ones_(TV_series)

Nothing will ever be the same again.

[gorepants]

Totally agree. It smacks of weak writing. Perhaps not as weak as 'they all woke up and it was a dream.' I'm fine with old one existing, and even having one or two races related to them (like the necrons - it is actually a good explanation for their backstory) works fine, but when everyone is an old one creation it seems a bit limited in scope. Maybe I'm a bit dubious of conspiracy theories (but then again may be the old ones are beign run by the freemasons!). I was much happier with the plotting when things were natural, the emperor was just a (super)man, and things were the way they were because that's how it had panned out. A good trick in sci-fi is explaning as little as possible, to maintain the suspension of disbelief. As soon as you start explaining every little thing you show up all the cracks.

[BuFFo]

You don't like the idea that the Slann (Lizardmen) are basically the creators of every race in the 40k Mythos?

:p

http://www.solegends.com/citrt/tsf18spaceslann.htm

[Col.Straken]

I'm fine with old one existing, and even having one or two races related to them (like the necrons - it is actually a good explanation for their backstory)

The Old Ones didn't create the Necrons!

They Necrontyr evolved naturally, but were frail and short lived, the C'tan came and ate their star (yes litterally) the Necrontyr worshipped them, then tricked them into the Necrodermis, the C'tan got pissed, put their conciousness into metal boddies then threw them at the Old Ones, who then built all the other races. (It went a little like that, not precise but mostly)

Then the nids came, ate everything, but they avoid the Necrons, and the Necrons avoid the nids.

[Gotthammer]

Related is a different word to created ;)

[Col.Straken]

The Old One's arent particularly related to the Necrons in any way, except that they created some guys to beat them up, but I'm not sure that counts as being related?

Plus earlier on several people did post that the 'Crons were created by the Old Ones.

[Spleen_stealer]

i just read the old fluff, from rogue trader era and refuse to accept the new "fluff" that over writes it.
I read the new fluff and compare it to the new, for instance the original ork codex, is almost nothing BUT fluff, and it goes into and describes like 12 different types of squigs and fungus the orks eat... and the new one has nothing like that at all... even the ork quotes are less creative, and thats sad.

The original SOB codex, to the WH Codex.... Yeah need I say more?

[Leez]

Heh, I never even stopped to think on how pervasive Old Ones are in the lore. Just last month, while flipping through the tyranid book I was looking for references to the Old Ones. Half thinking tyranids were created by the Old Ones to wipe the slate clean so they could start again and how the "shadow of the warp" works into it and half thinking the Hive Mind is just another C'tan coming to war on the creations of the Old Ones.

Reflecting on it though, the use of Old Ones the way they are does not seem over done to me. To me it does not make the galaxy feel small nor enclosed. All the races do feel self-empowering (or at least could be but choose not to be), on the general level and individual level. Being created does not in any way shape or form imply having a predestined future as the purpose with which they were created is that of the creators not of the created. There isn't a lack of evolution either, others have mentioned the Tau and Tyranids, but humans to are evolving (not mutating p112 sourcebook) as mentioned once very briefly. They are stagnating though and self-oppressing, but that's very different then not evolving.

That all said, the universe does seem bleak, cold, and oppressive. That the actions of individuals no matter how heroic are little more then brief flickers of light crushed in short order. Their actions ultimately futile. The very manner in which the lore is written and the constant back drop of war, endless, hopeless, crushing war is what creates that atmosphere. I do not feel as though the mere presence of Old Ones and once upon a time flourishing of a handful of the races they created as the source of this atmosphere.

[Hyperion]

If you think the Old Ones have gotten old, just wait until the next edition introduces the Young Ones:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Young_Ones_(TV_series)

Nothing will ever be the same again.

Oh don't be so borjoysy! ;)

[Lanparth]

I love the Old One's interactions in the background. Its not even that deeply involved, there isn't that much information really on them.

I'd love an Old ONe's army however ;)