holding the home objective with Eldar

[ZenPaladin]

Hey Team!

I'm trying to think of ways to hold the home objective with the Eldar in an army swap game coming up. What I have now is 10 guardians with a Missile Launcher and Warlock with Embolden. The idea to plink at mech with the launcher if possible and go to ground if looked at funny.

I know 5 Dire's is cheeper but it seems pretty flimsy. I know I could create a faster scoring unit on bikes or such and dive back to home base at the end but that seems expensive and seems to have no other utility.

Wraithguard cost way to damn much...

Anyone else have any good outside the box idea's for holding the home objective? Maybe I should just not frikin worry about it and build only to run up and take objectives in the field?

If it matters the force has 10 Avengers on foot for mid field objectives, 10 Storms in a Wave Serpent with Farseer, Aurtark and Fusion for distant objectives.. and I'm thinking of working in a bike squad of guardian's or maybe Shining Spears...

[Crotch Lictor]

I don't think you can go wrong with the Guardians. I would have gone with a Scatter Laser for the Weapon over a EML, though. It may not pack as big a punch, but you're sure to get more hits when the unit is BS3.

[SonicPara]

If the new Night Spinner retains its current rules, then its the perfect thing for holding a starting objective.

You put a barebones 5-man Dire Avengers squad inside to make the vehicle scoring and you give the vehicle Holo-Fields to make it nearly indestructible. You could do the same with a Falcon but the Night Spinner is better suited for the job due to its long range, large template S6 AP- weapon.

[Splug]

The squad should be able to accomplish something through turns 1-4 in addition to still being alive at the end of the game. It doesn't necessarily have to be there the rest of the game. There are a few options, and the best choice is going to depend largely on the rest of your army.

If you've gone heavy mech, then a minimum squad of dire avengers in a wave serpent would be fine - they're just going to show up on whichever objectives are easiest to take at the end of the game; with a 24" move, it doesn't really matter whether it was in your deployment zone or the other player's, just be there when it's important. If you have several of these squads, whichever ones still have transports at the end of the game can dive on the furthest objectives. The slightly cheaper alternative to accomplish the same thing is a minimal squad of guardian jetbikes, who would almost have to start in reserve to compensate for being more fragile.

If you're running more infantry, guardians with a missile launcher will provide some minor anti-vehicle capability (nothing you can rely on, but it's better than not shooting at all). An alternative to put some minor damage on infantry would be a small squad of rangers. The concepts are similar: sit back, be annoying, and if something looks at you funny go to ground for a 3+ or 2+ save. The guardians will be a bit more durable (particularly due to embolden and the higher body count), but the rangers will most likely be able to put out more wounds if they don't have to go to ground for a turn or two, and provide the option to outflank onto a rear objective if that is preferable in a given game. I could see going either way with justification.

[ZenPaladin]

Hmm part of my problem is that I am running out of tanks. Th other is that the serpent is soo expensive. I don want to spend those points on a bunker in the backfield. I am honestly hoping that the two prisims and serpent heading at him are enough of an attention grabber that he won't put a lot of fire on my back field. The utility of outflanking rangers does intreague me though.

Do you guys think two prisims a melta storm squad with fusion aurtak and maybe rapid shot dark reapers is enough AT? Would dragons on foot be a total waste? Maybe the lock guardian jet bike squad can pick off dreads and such...

[murrburger]

Ah, don't RS Dark Reapers. It's a waste... they should be dedicated anti-space marine. Try crack shot+tempest launcher. And Fire Dragons on foot will probably attract obscene amounts of fire...

For sitting at home, just go with Guardians, or maybe Rangers. (Rangers don't tend to do much if they're in small numbers, however. So don't expect a lot.)

[whitestar333]

I actually disagree, I think that RS Dark Reapers can be quite effective because of their dual-purpose. Also, it depends on the size of the squad you take. The EML has two modes of fire (don't underestimate the effect of pinning!) and the exarch is BS5, meaning that both shots from rapid shot are likely to land right on target. An exarch equipped this way can really hurt MCs in combination with the rest of the squad.

Are there better AT choices out there? Absolutely. Is the crack-tempest the best loadout? Perhaps, depending on what you regularly see at your store. If you need to crack open more transports or have difficulty facing MCs, I would suggest the exarch with rapid shot and the EML. Even once the transports are gone, the EML can still blast open some troops and has a chance of pinning them in place. If you see a lot of MEQs outside of transports, then the crack-tempest is probably better.

Hell, if you saw a lot of fast moving skimmers, you could always take the EML with crack shot!

[Splug]

A 3-man reaper squadron with the missile launcher / fast shot exarch is going to run 147 points. It cannot move, is T4, and gets two S8 shots against vehicles (with 4 S5's if you're shooting at an AV11 rhino or something).

A wraithlord with a bright lance / missile launcher combo is 155 points. It can move and shoot (though you may feel compelled to keep him near a warlock), has 3 wounds at T8, and puts down two S8 shots (one with lance). The BS is a little lower, and it's not as terrifying vs MC's (where the non-exarch crew is really scary), but as far as tank destruction goes it's almost as good for light tanks and better against av13+. Moreover, the wraithlord provides the potential for an S10 MC to pound on rear armor - while this is fairly easy for your opponent to avoid, it still forces them to stay away for fear of being smashed to pieces.

For durable long-ranged vehicle destruction, I've found running wraithlords, war walkers, or falcons to be strong choices. The tempest exarch is amazing for destroying infantry - and since guess weapons have become barrage weapons, the tempest launcher causes pinning as well. The fast shot / missile launcher reaper squad just feels like it's going to be wasting something major every time it shoots (either the anti-infantry from the squad or the anti-tank from the exarch) unless you're firing at MC's.

[davel]

Eldar troops do need to be fixed a little. My break down of them is as follws

dire advengers. best all round exarch powers assist kicking units off objectives and holding objectives till help arrives. they do need a serpent with out long range can get blasted apart from afar or simply avoided. If you want them to hold objective put your objective close to board edge and reserve them to march on. But they won't add much fire power that way.
of course 5 in a falcon trick.

Wraith guard far too expensive. Many armies can get equivalent survivability for cheaper. Though thats not to say that I have not had some success reserving them as above.

Jet bikes. You don't have to sit on the objective the entire time just when the time is ripe. again reserving is worth considering.

rangers and path finders are good but as 4th 5th troop choice.but if they sit on home objective then templates and assault troops will head that way .The results will be messy for you .

guardians only 1 long range gun. No aptitude for holding in an assault (see assault marine picture in codex space marines)
may be in large amounts, with avatar and farseer helping. warlock with embolden wraith lord nearby quins held back to help counter assult.
how ever i have found no joy in a single guardian squad holding my base.

It maybe worth a change in how you view the objectives. treat them if they are things to attack and take. most armies hate moving we don't.let him split his army and jump on which ever part is weakest (we are eldar, honor is a primitive concept) Then does he march on or come back to deal with you. If you take 1 all you need to do is contest the other. ( though all that is easier said than done.)

dave l

[Splug]

Do you guys think two prisims a melta storm squad with fusion aurtak and maybe rapid shot dark reapers is enough AT? Would dragons on foot be a total waste? Maybe the lock guardian jet bike squad can pick off dreads and such...That is not going to be enough anti-tank for a 2000 point game with any sort of reliability. You're looking at 2 missile shots, 1-2 prism shots, and 3 close-range fusion guns, and that's counting the reaper exarch. The prisms could additionally be shaken, meaning they will likely not fire every turn (even before being destroyed).

I've tried running fire dragons on foot in two tournaments now. While I DID destroy a land raider with them one game and force some invulnerable saves on terminators another, in general they were too easy to avoid with heavy vehicles, or drag into a multiple assault, or shoot to pieces. Without fortune they won't survive to make it to close combat, and you probably need to be spending spells on other units. So generally, I'm unimpressed with them; give them a falcon, or spend your elite slot some other way.

[Freefall945]

Recently I've had great success with pathfinders. They're a touch pricier that minumum Avengers, but they're effective even in small groups for forcing pinning checks and whittling down monstrous creatures, they have the scout-move so you can dummy your opponent by putting them in the open then leaping back into the terrain, and most importantly...

...they have a 2+ cover save in any source of cover in this edition. Without going to ground. This makes them probably the least appetizing target to shoot at in your army.

If they are assaulted, they will die - but quite frankly, if this is a major deterrent to you, then Welcome to the wonderful world of Eldar! I hope you enjoy your very first game! :)

[ZenPaladin]

Ah see that's the kicker.. this is 1500.

Yeah the idea with a squad of 5 fire dragon's on foot wouldn't be for them to kill things. It would be for them to make a bubble of don't move your tank here..

But I agree they could be shot up pretty easily and I'm not going to be using my psychic powers on them.. honestly turned out I couldn't afford them anyway.

I couldn't even afford the warlock for the back guardian squad. I may be switiching that out for rangers...

[Splug]

Even at 1500, you're going to be a bit tight for tankbusting with 3-4 long range shots and one close-range squad. You can have an amazing amount of bulk fire, but if you can't get people out of transports it doesn't help at all. One quick way to alleviate that a bit is to put some missile launchers on your own transports - it's cheaper than adding another squad, and will provide a few more chances to knock people out of their tanks. A personal favorite of mine is the Avatar - his sword can be fired with the same profile as a meltagun, and he's an MC in close combat - meaning if the first shot doesn't pop the target, the charge still might. His other rules (IE: everyone nearby is fearless) aren't too shabby either.

[ZenPaladin]

Yeah the Avatar would be a great addition. But my friends and I play by the un-written rule that you don't use named characters and other badasses without permsion and never in less than a 2000 point game. So he's not an option.

I supose that's ok to some extent too I don't plan on de-meching the IG here. I'll be playing Space Marine player who will probibly have two to 4 rhino's, two or so dread and maybe a predator, whirlwind, or land speeder.

When you try to play the Eldar with no Eldrad and no Avatar things get a little dicy. Course I play my cron's with no C'Tan and fight salamandar marines with no Vulcan so..

[Splug]

Well, the thing is that with only 4 long-range tankbusting rounds, you're not going to consistently kill even one vehicle a turn, leaving you with little to unload small arms fire on or assault even against that marines list in light armor. Another option if you're staying away from SC's is to look into Wraithlords. They're not quite as beneficial for the rest of your army as an Avatar would have been, but for breaking a tank open, 155 points gets you a S8 missile, an S8 lance, and three S10 MC attacks on the charge. These guys can rip through land raiders like they're made of paper, and those are vehicles that are almost guaranteed to drive forward and come to you regardless of the risk. War walkers are a cheaper alternative, but I prefer to load those up with scatter lasers rather than missiles/lances - they're just too fragile to make expensive.

[Northern Queen]

I'd go with the WarWalker solution, two of those carrying 1 BL and 1 EML comes at 5 pt's more than the Wraith Lord, and carries more shooting punch. This should be enough to stop most tanks.

The downside of this is the AV10, and bs3, witch makes 'em less likely to hit, althou i use my Farseer with guide to help them ;)
Oh, another thing, you can add Spirit Stones to the WarWalker, this and the Scouts rule make them a good adition to my army.


My first two cents :)


edit: you can even go with two BL's per WarWalker, thou at much higher cost. This gives you 4 Lances to stop those pesky Land Raiders with.

[ZenPaladin]

Yeah when it comes to Brightlances I'm pretty much in the hell no camp. The lance is allways BS 3 (except maybe on the wraithlords?) and costs 30 points. Its gona be 50% to hit 50% to glance and less to pen and then a 5 or 6 to kill. All for 30 points.

To me? Melta is what kills heavy armor. 10 points gives storm guardians melta. So for 20 points I'll hit 75% of the time, (two shots) glance at a little over 50% and then kill on a 4+. Its cheeper and more effective and only requires that I get my storm's close.. which is where I want them anyway.

I can understand if you want to dance in a full mech build its going to be more your style? And maybe even more effective if your on the move. But it's defenatly not my thing.

Alternitively two Prism's can link up for a twin linked, str 10 ap1 shot. Hiting again at close to 75% and glancing at 50% and killing on 4+. If I was going MechDar that's what I would want.. in adition to some lances.

[Splug]

Melta weapons are certainly more reliable and more cost-efficient, but the requirement of getting close can be very inhibiting. You're not likely to get that squad in position to kill more than one vehicle the whole game - the passengers from the first land raider will probably smash them apart, or the hailstorm of small arms fire will put them down. I certainly agree having something to deal with AV 13+ in the army is key, but my point about not having much long-range vehicle destruction was more with respect to popping AV11 rhinos, or AV12 chimeras. If you're sacrificing a storm guardian squad to get rid of a land raider, that's probably a worthwhile trade. If you're relying on it to pop open a wall of rhinos, that may not work out to be as great.

[ZenPaladin]

Your absoulty right. And if you leave the stormies there or the dragons they are going to die faceing the bee hive they just kicked. My curent plan is to use the tanks I do have to shield my storms from counter attack from the rest of the army and then pounce on the pasangers with the storms and my harlies. It should allow me to crack open and kill the contents of one trans port at a time.

I would actually prefer that the rest of the rhino's stay whole so that I don't get swarmed with powered armored bodies!

If I had the points I'd love to grab lances and Wraithlords and more. But the list I've built is more a hybrid assault list than a shooting dance list. I'll see if I can't post it in the list forum latter today.

[thelonegrif]

honestly go with wraith guard heres a list i drew up back in 08 and tweaked after a few games and have had a lot of success with
Eldrad
Fortune seer Runes of Witness
x9 harles TM SS x8 kisses
x10 Wraith Guard Lock sing spr sprt seer conceal
x10 Wraith Guard Lock sing spr sprt seer conceal
x5 rangers
x5 rangers
x3 d cannon wpn platforms lock sprt seer
x2 wraith lords BL and Wraith Sword

use the WG as a screen and spread them out have your seers attached to them to keep up the fortune keep you cannons on the back obj with one squad of rangers keep the other behind the harles +3 cover saves and hard time seeing harles or keep them behind wg same save and you have a decent amount of vehicle killing power
against a BA list with 3 Vin's and a Baal Pred they were off the table by turn three
but this list i would take against heavy armor or in general i have another varient i use for horde based armies or thin skinned armies
which replaces the WG with guardians and DA

however if you wanted your range vehicle killing power to be a bit better drop 2 harles and give the fortune seer guide and sprt stns and embolden or give a sins spr to the lock with the d-cannons personally i take embolden incase the get into cc with something
record for it so far 7-1-2 and the germans i play fear this formation

[HarlekissofDeath]

Well for the original question asked as to what troop you should use as the objective holder in your back field, I would say use Rangers/ Pathfinders (depending on points you have available. You can use them against light armor and anything on foot Ap1 or rending on6's, and the Pathfinders have Ap1 on a 5 or 6, plus the ability to pin isn't to be underestimated. The 2+, 3+ cover save is always a bonus too. If you are worried about being assualted leave a squad of harlies, or banshees (in cover) back as the counter assault.

Wraithguard are great, but expensive, and for 1500 points you need all the extra bang you can get.

[thelonegrif]

Honestly it is a good choice but instead of harles or banishes as there killing power is much better served on the from th front or mid field. I would suggest something with that kill just about anything that comes near you but, can still reach out to the mid field and kill some thing if you need to clear mid field. D cannon weapon platforms simply because 3 small templates with anything but to wound, no armor saves and only invul saves (sometimes cover pending on where your hits land).

[L192837465]

honestly it is a good choice but instead of harles or banshie as there killing power is much better served on the from of mid field i would suggest something with a little more effective but can still reach out to the mid field and kill some thing if needed d cannon weapon platforms simply because 3 small templates with anything but to wound no armor saves and only invul saves sometimes cover pending on where your hits land

My brain... It hurts...


\Punctuation and capitalization helps confer your points better. Just saying...

[Lordgimpet]

To help making your objective holding better, take into account your oponant's as well as your own playstyle. As there are many options at your disposal. However as it's is against a frend of yours you should have a fair idea of what he may do and what tricks he may fall for. Eldar are fast flexable and mobile for the most part. where say Necrons are more static or Space Marines can be used with each unit being its own island etc etc.

My style of play is an aggressive mobile approach I treat the battle as a dance and keep the enemy dancing to my tune... till the dice say otherwise :P ill try not to repeat other posts here so far as all of them are good ideas, just have to find one that suits you.

some tricks you could do is just ignore objectives well at least make the enemy think you have. dangle it in front of him like a jucy bait, if he does not fall for it means he will leave it alone for the most part and just move something there in the last turns or when you feel he can no longer obtain it.

if he does fall for it punish him :P

Pathfinders are awsome holders and a must if terrain is dense enough that players put objective in dangerous terrain or buildings.
I am a fan of dire avengers in a falcon as often in the heat of battle a player will see my falcon and go ok thats a tank no score there move on to a more obvious target.

I love Vibro cannons in a Support weapon battery, but you need to take 3 to get it to be most effective as you then roll 3 dice needing only one of thoes to hit for all 3 to count, then draw a 36' line and any unit in that line takes D6 hits at Str 6 and vehicles take D6 glancing hits with no ap roll needed. Is great way to soften the enemy up or disable them to allow other units to finish off

Cutting this shorter than it looks lol the thing to remember is whatever you decide to have holding objectives is to have other friendly units on hand to assist each other as all eldar units are squishy if used on their own.

[Daemonette666]

This is replying to the original question. I was just too lasy to go back 3 pages to answer that question.

Just use guardians no upgrades, no one else like warlocks, nothing special. let my chaos marines charge them in close combat, and then leave it to fate. LOL

Seriously, I like the idea of a guardian unit with a missile launcher, cheap, and you can always rush another unit in to support them in the last turn or 2. The Pathfinders, have always been a pain in my tactics if I cannot afford vehicles for every squad, or use a lot of cover. However once I get into close combat with them, they are toast. A rhino mounted squad of noise marines clears them out of cover really easy, especially if the Aspiring Champion has a doom siren.

So basically, I am saying use a cheap unit with a weapon powerful enough to kill of an enemy APC transporting those nasty troop across the board at you. Have another unit nearby to intercept the vehicle or troops, or assist in close combat if your enemy does get someone on the objective.

Also if you are fighting Space Marines, Drop pods, and deep striking units are going to cause you some real headaches.