Some sort of 40k End Times hinted at....

[Mr Mystery]

Spinning off into it's own thread.

Check out what GW had to say on their FB feed about the Battle for That Word I Can't Readily Spell, But Is Used In Polite Society To Say 'House', Because Reasons.

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13876321_1662301600757139_2420524315274174950_n.jp g?oh=5b87e95c6e46221c2081364f1b27a35a&oe=5817BDDB

[CoffeeGrunt]

Well, The Talon of Horus, specifically ends at the cusp of the 13th Black Crusade with Iskandar telling the Inquisition that the End Times - actual caps in the book - are coming. When the Inquisition ask why he walked right up to their fortress and surrendered himself to tell them, he says it's because it matters not whether they know, they're set to fall anyway.

It's interesting that GW are openly acknowledging the steady fluff advance though. Tau Empire is looking pretty dishevelled and Aun'va is dead, but it seems that the Enclaves are working with the Empire in the darkest hour. The Ad Mech are making deals with the DEldar to fix the Golden Throne. The Ad Mech are ever on the verge of civil war over the nature of the Omnissiah. Leviathan is tearing Baal apart while the greater hive fleet encroaches, Ghazghull is marshaling Ork hordes across the galaxy for the biggest fight ever, and of course it's Smackdown On Cadia with Abaddon giving number thirteen a swing again.

[Mr Mystery]

Really interested to see what happens here.

I'm not expecting a Warhammer style reimagining. Age of Sigmar is great and all, but 40k doesn't need that level of makeover, and it's IP remains one of the strongest out there.

So I'm expecting background shifts only for the most part. No death of the Emperor. No Abaddon becoming the fifth Chaos God, no Eldar suddenly being everywhere. Just a shift in the inter-species dynamics and that. For instance - Baal. We could see the Blood Angels up sticks and relocate to a different world. That'd be a significant advancement, without negating people's collections. And a rejig of the rules - possibly a 40k App to match the AoS App (which is a great boon!)

[Defenestratus]

Well its nice that GW is admitting a 40k end times is incoming.

Hold onto your hats.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Just give me an Enslaver plague already ffs :P

[CoffeeGrunt]

I wouldn't mind them doing an End Times on it, because End Times was awesome, and most people seemed to agree. It was what came after End Times that made people mad, and to be fair, I don't blame them.

That said, I'd personally like to see an alternate edition of 40K with a ground-up rebuild. Have it be a distinct format from standard 40K so that the two can exist parallel to one-another.

[This Dave]

They have to have an End Times because my favorite army is finally getting an official codex.

[Captain Bubonicus]

https://futureofstarwars.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/ihaveabadfeeling-luke.gif?w=520

[Lurker]

Late to the party again. Been out of it for awhile, what can I say...

THESE are the kind of threads I like. the What-ifs and what-abouts, dig 'em. It allows me to spout off my crazy, tin-foil hat wearing, crack-pot theories (without TOO much derision)! So, put on yer best Tin foil caps and let's play What are you Smoking!?

It seems that the overall consensus (in this thread) is that GW isn't likely to do a total reboot of 40K. An End Times series perhaps, but without all the anger of the AoS style reset. That's all good and all. But if you did do an ET, how would you go about concluding it? Well. It just so happens I have a few regrettable ideas...

Crack-pot Theory #1.
The Dream Sequence. Someone important (or just well known, possibly The Emp or Horus if you want to go that far back), wake up one morning and say "Oh, it was all just a stupid dream. Very well then, lets get on with all this conquest business", or something similar. BAM! End Times ended. Albeit in the most irritating and idiotically cliche way possible. (Jeez, can you imagine the amount of fans that would lose their sh*t)?
So, Possibility Factor on this cra-cra idea? Pretty much NIL. (But honestly, sometimes I wouldn't put it past 'em).

Crack-pot Theory #2.
The Eleventh Hour Save. So the Universe goes all apesh*t violent, (even more so than normal). Everybody's fighting everybody else, strange alliances are happening, cats are sleeping with dogs etc etc. Ya know, Friday night at the pub. But just when things look darkest for Humanity, (and pretty much everyone else), something or someone comes along to save the day. "WHAT HAPPENS NEXT WILL SHOCK YOU"! Enh, probably not. Maybe the Emp wakes up or the Primarchs make a glorious return or some artifact gives the Imperials the upper hand, everybody comes together to fight the 'Nids while singing Kumbaya... whatever it is would have to be good and more or less believable.
Possibility factor? Enh. personally I think it would be neat, but not likely to happen.

Crack-Pot Theory #3
Aliens. (You knew it was coming). A new force enters the fray completely upsetting the fragile balance of power causing all sorts of events to occur. A completely new group is introduced or one of the races that were long ago cast aside (Squats, Beastmen) or never really developed (Slaugth, Barghesi, etc) come back with a vengeance. Alliances change, homeworlds shift as territory is lost or captured, New tech, psyhic powers (or even Magic) come to the fore. A rediscovery of forgotten things (an intact STC computer) or perhaps the Eldar condescend to instruct the Mon-Keigh in the use of their psyhic talents, (they could open a chain of schools throughout the Imperium, like Montessori's only violent). All sorts of variations on this theme could be possible.
Possibility Factor? Actually, maybe not all that bad really. Stranger things have happened.

That said, I do like Coffeegrunts' idea of a parallel build. That could be interesting. I'd love a smaller squad based skirmish style game too. Fluff re-writes and rules resets would most likely be the outcome of a 40K End Times, but how to end the End Times and what comes after? There's the real question. I'm sure GeeDub has it all figured out already.

Tune in Next Week for the episode of How The Universe Burns.

[Mr Mystery]

For me, I think this might about to change the clock from two minutes to midnight, to either one minute to midnight orthree minutes to midnight. The future looking marginally darker, or marginally lighter.

Why? It's do with the main reason I really get on with AoS as a background. In short? We're. Not. Doomed. Resistance is not in fact futile. Chaos can be denied. With the right effort, collaboration and sacrifice, the 'good' guys can actually win.

I find this appealing precisely because of 40k's oppressive atmosphere. Nihilism is fun, the sure and certain knowledge that 'aaaaaaand we're all gonna die and end up fodder for utterly insane warp entities which may or may not be a corruption of otherwise largely balanced and benevolent deities'......but to introduce hope to that - even the merest hint of redemption that isn't utterly futile?

Yes. That's a change I can fully embrace.

And it doesn't involve a major shift in the background either. Doesn't involve extinction of any known race, playable or not. Doesn't detract from decades of background. It can enhance it all.

So let's say Eldrad succeeds in whatever he's up to - even partially. If he is indeed intent on corralling Slaanesh and bringing about Ynnead - that's gonna have Warp Based repercussions. It could be enough to imbalance things to the point that Chaos loses its 'concentration'.....

[Lurker]

So let's say Eldrad succeeds in whatever he's up to - even partially. If he is indeed intent on corralling Slaanesh and bringing about Ynnead - that's gonna have Warp Based repercussions. It could be enough to imbalance things to the point that Chaos loses its 'concentration'.....

I like it. Sensible and already built on existing story lines. One question though.

If Slaanesh gets canned, wouldn't another Chaos god like Malal, (sorry MALICE), or some other lesser/unknown god just jump in the still warm chair? It would pretty much be business as usual, even if there was a brief loss of 'concentration'. Perhaps the new guy is what would, in the end, be the saving grace as he/she brings new schemes and plans into the mix?

[Mr Mystery]

Slaanesh isn't being canned.

I'm expecting at worst a reimagining.

[Defenestratus]

So BoLS is now reporting that the AoS-ification of 40k will happen Q2 2017.

I can't tell you how upset this makes me.

I don't want short, streamlined games. I want a deep, cinematic game that is loaded with detail and rules for each model. I don't want another 2nd->3rd edition culling of the ruleset. There are still a laundry list of rules from 2nd edition that I want them to put back in the core ruleset.

*SIGH*

[CoffeeGrunt]

To be fair, I want an Age of Sigmar-esque reboot of 40K a lot, but I think it shouldn't be a replacement so much as a secondary ruleset beside the current one.

I get that people like the ruleset as it is, warts and all, but locally we've stopped playing because no-one has the time to sit down for an afternoon to play it, and too many games came away as not being all that enjoyable, cementing the issue. IMO a top-down rebuild is going to be necessary for 40K at some point. It's like the ol' family car that's been patched, jerry-rigged and duct-taped together. Still holding out, but it's gunna need to be replaced some to.

[Defenestratus]

To be fair, I want an Age of Sigmar-esque reboot of 40K a lot, but I think it shouldn't be a replacement so much as a secondary ruleset beside the current one.

I get that people like the ruleset as it is, warts and all, but locally we've stopped playing because no-one has the time to sit down for an afternoon to play it, and too many games came away as not being all that enjoyable, cementing the issue. IMO a top-down rebuild is going to be necessary for 40K at some point. It's like the ol' family car that's been patched, jerry-rigged and duct-taped together. Still holding out, but it's gunna need to be replaced some to.

See, I don't *care* how long a game takes. And I've never played more enjoyable games than I have in 7th edition. I can't tell you the number of games where I thought I was ahead by a country mile then I lost during the closing turns of the game, or the reverse.

The thing I want most of all is a ruleset that conveys what the models are depicted as in the fluff. When you homogenize the ruleset, this uniquness ALWAYS suffers. It happened in the 2nd->3rd edition reset and its going to happen again.

Pretty soon the different between an Eldar Jetbike and a Rough Rider is going to be the armor save, and thats about it.

[CoffeeGrunt]

To be fair, I wouldn't mind having my Rough Riders be even remotely comparable to Jetbikes, but hey-ho.

I care because I can only play two days of the week at best, and on those two days it's now a genuine toss-up between 40K, Dropzone, Tanks, Halo Fleet or Age of Sigmar. Sadly 40K has been losing that fight for the last year and my army has been collecting dust in the store attic because it just takes too long to play. :/

I mean, I can either play a game of 40K, or play a game of Tanks and Dropzone and get a little more painting time. 40K is a lot of investment for diminishing return, so I'd like to see it streamlined, personally.

Then again, I'm a big fan of design minimalism and not a fan of complexity for complexity's sake, so that's probably where my biases start creeping in.

[Mr Mystery]

I'd there's definitely room for some streamlining - and of a sort that could provide a variety of boosts.

For instance, as many will know AoS has largely fixed dice scores to hit and to wound.

Now, in 40k fixed to wound would be a right hoo-ha and no mistake. Suddenly the like of Wraithknights become ded weedy,mas a concentrated volley of Lasgun fire could drop it.

But.....fixed to hit? Well, we've largely got that any way. With no basic modifiers for Ballistic Skill, would a straight 'Marines hit on a 3+' be any different? It could also help boost largely lacklustre troops who are meant to specialise in HTH. Imagine Bumshees always hitting on a 3+, regardless of opponent?

Another one which might be welcome is adopting AoS' cover rules. It doesn't affect who strikes first, instead it gives units an improved save against shooting and combat - and having an IGOUGO combat phase is a real tactical challenge. Over extend, and you risk at least one of your prize unit being slapped around before it can strike - unless they have equipment to alter it. Imagine IGOUGO ala AoS, but with say, Bumshees masks forcing the charged unit to be picked to fight last of all?

By no means are they all portable, but there is good stuff that can be mined. Main one is adopting the AoS app format - provided they offer a way to get the digital goodies if you buy the physical book. Imagine having all your various rules on a single app, and on a single page? No more having to lug books about, just the phone, phablet or tablet of your choice.

[Defenestratus]

To be fair, I wouldn't mind having my Rough Riders be even remotely comparable to Jetbikes, but hey-ho.

I care because I can only play two days of the week at best, and on those two days it's now a genuine toss-up between 40K, Dropzone, Tanks, Halo Fleet or Age of Sigmar. Sadly 40K has been losing that fight for the last year and my army has been collecting dust in the store attic because it just takes too long to play. :/

I mean, I can either play a game of 40K, or play a game of Tanks and Dropzone and get a little more painting time. 40K is a lot of investment for diminishing return, so I'd like to see it streamlined, personally.

Then again, I'm a big fan of design minimalism and not a fan of complexity for complexity's sake, so that's probably where my biases start creeping in.

See I'm completely the opposite. I play maybe once, twice a month at the most. I set aside and schedule a day for it weeks in advance. I meticulously plan my army list, and come up with a barebones story behind it's composition. Every list is different and each one tells a different story. (Playing more than a game with a single list is a crime to me. I never do it unless I have to)

I then travel an hour or more to go play against one of my best friends. Sometimes I need to go two states over in order to play against my buddies.

I then hope that the game takes at least 4, but hopefully 6 hours and at the end of the game, I'm mentally exhausted. At the end of the game, everyone is happy because they've spent time with their buds, tossed some dice, had ups and downs and we were doing something other than working or getting nagged by our wives.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I've only played one significantly-large Apocalypse game before, and it was such a mentally-exhausting experience that we both agreed to never bother again.

My overall forces have fluff and I try to convert stuff creatively to suit it. I'm just tired of how much of my army is made up of lame ducks, or worse, how much of my army isn't when I face a friend who's running a weaker force. One of my best friends has a few armies, so I tend to run a generalist army with a particular strategy and fluff in mind. Most recently it was a Tau/Guard force where the Guard were entrenched behind an Aegis Line with some artillery, and a couple of flanking units to harass the enemy. They were woefully outnumbered, but air support was on the way and their Tau allies would be there soon if they only hold the line! His force ended up being an Iron Warriors force he'd spent much time and money putting together, with a fair complement of Forge World tanks, a Typhon, and a lot of very bitter and twisted gentlemen.

It actually went perfectly according the fluff too. My Guard gave his forces a bloody nose but took horrific casualties. My Medusa ended up being the MVP by hammering tanks with Bastion Breachers like a bolt from the blue, which instantly gave me the upper hand. He had Terminators drop in and end the gun's fun while his army closed on my forces, Officer of the Fleet frantically calling for backup but failing because she's Ld7 but I love the thematic appeal.

Then the Vulture came on and hosed down an incoming squad. The Guard leapt the barrier to take the fight to 'em as the Tau Outflanked, Deep Striked and otherwise surrounded my friends' forces. A mob of Crisis Suits readied their Fusion Blasters, failed to inflict damage on the Typhon and were splatted by it. The Medusa swan song shot missed the Typhon and splatted the Warpsmith who served as his Warlord before it got beaten to pieces by the remains of the Terminators. Guard veteran squads soon saw to those brutes with a volley of rail rifle shots, and the Vulture sorta fly all over the place pouring Wounds on squads until they ceased to be scary.

I mean, I actually had a fair bit of fun, but my opponent really didn't, which means I ultimately didn't in the end. That's the sad part, because it became pretty clear from the first round onwards that I was going to win, and there never really was a chance to avert that. Which was a shame, because I've had a lot of damn close games with them before. If they'd brought their own Renegades or Eldar, I'd probably have lost, given the track record.

So yeah, we don't tend to play 40K now because the games tend to go all one way, we find. I love the fluff, love the narrative and drama of the game, but tbh I can get that drama elsewhere. The fluff, sure, no games really come close, but I'm more about the game than the backstory when it comes down to it. I wanna have a laugh with an opponent, feel a genuine challenge and if I win, I wanna feel like it was earned. I've had some fantastic games of Tanks lately that came down to brave maneuvers with my Red Army T34-76s sacrificing themselves to block a street so that I can funnel my opponent towards my mighty IS-2, while avoiding their own skirmishing units trying to flank her and get some rear shots into it. Dropzone scratches the mass army itch when I need it, and Age of Sigmar hits my GW fix.

Different things for different folks, to be fair. Which is why despite wanting an updated ruleset with streamlined gameplay pretty darn badly, I want it to be a separate format, not a replacement. Then you get the best of both worlds. :)

[Wayniac]

I do not think there should be a full on "the universe implodes" like WHFB. What I think would be interesting to see would be evolving the story like say 100 years or so. The Golden Throne fails, the Emperor is "dead". The Imperium fractures into warring city-states (a la Alexander the Great's death), some staying loyal to the Imperium, some forming their own groups (e.g. Ultramarines do that thing Guilliman was going to do and have Imperium Secundus or whatever, basically the Byzantine Empire to the Imperium's Rome). Chapters like the Templars or Wolves could be essentially like mercenaries who get hired out.

The gist here is that you have a world of tense alliances at best, where people can face off over various reasons. So you finally in-game have a fluffy reason to have Marine vs. Marine without it being a training exercise, a game of "who's the heretic" or just ignore any backstory. You can even have intra-chapter conflicts in a throwback to the Heresy. The same could be applied for other factions, to allow Eldar vs. Eldar or Tau vs. Tau. Everyone has their own goals that sometimes brings into conflict with each other.

On the actual rules side of things, I'm hoping for a streamlining like AoS. X to hit, X to wound, I'm not sure how rending will come into play if at all, an app that has dataslates for everything available for free. Three ways to play, campaign supplements coming out that detail specific battles.

I'd also like to see more tie-ins with things. For example, the Beast Arises novel series came out.. where was the Marines vs. Ork narrative campaign to tie into it? They should have campaign supplements for more than just Space Marines vs. X.

[Denzark]

There's 2 concerns to end times - rules and fluff. I hope against all hope that GW have seen what backlash you will get when you go for a hard-reset of the fluff - and note that a lot seemed to relate to IP - gave a chance for AoS to rename factions. In 40K we have already had that (AM, Codex Astartes etc) so I hope they see no real need.

The rules - I echo Defenestratus - we don't need 2nd-3rd levels of change - just a bit of amoebic dysentry to excrete some of the rules bloat, and a change in power levels.

[Wayniac]

I don't know.. I think we DO need a 2nd -> 3rd level revamp. I think part of the issue right now is the rules try to do everything for everyone; skirmish, company, regiment+ level, when those layers want totally different things. E.g. a skirmish level game wants detail down to the individual model which may or may not have special rules (e.g. Brother Vandrion is an expert shot with his lascannon so he gets to re-roll 1s while Brother Mendrach is a close combat specialist so gets an extra attack, etc.), a company game wants enough abstraction to make the individual matter but not get bogged down in rules, and higher than that want complete abstraction (e.g. it doesn't matter if this guy has a lascannon, heavy bolter or missile launcher, just that he has a heavy weapon, or this is a unit that does X, the individual models don't matter). 40k can't do that with the core rules framework as it is, because it's still after all these years built around the core of 3rd edition.

[40kGamer]

I don't know.. I think we DO need a 2nd -> 3rd level revamp. I think part of the issue right now is the rules try to do everything for everyone; skirmish, company, regiment+ level, when those layers want totally different things.

I agree. GW tried to make 40k into EPIC while keeping the 40k rules - which is a terrible idea for 28mm play. Having distinct rules for various types of play would be very welcome.