HOLY CRAP, Frag Cannons RULE!

[Bigred]

How on earth did we all go on so long without anyone mentioning the Blood Angel Furioso Dreadnought's Frag Cannon upgrade?

We just saw a dread put 23 wounds on a unit with it the turn it came out of a pod... That many wounds means who cares about armor saves... and the rending is just a cherry on top.

Assault 2 template weapons are a mean piece of business. Now the question is can you equip the frag cannon on a Furioso Librarian. I think you can...

[Hugz4Genestealers]

GW Brainstorming Session:
Dev1: Okay guys, how's this: we give the space vampires a dreadnought AV 13, psychic powers, the ability to fly, lightning claws that give it extra attacks every time it wounds, a magnetic grappling hook, AND a thunderfire cannon on one arm?
Chorus:Yeah, sounds good, man, now pass over the ganja!

[Yhcrana]

I noticed how awesome the frag cannon was as soon as I got the codex, I love podding them behind a vehicle, auto hitting with 2 str 6 rending attacks and a meltagun is pretty nice on a squad of leman russ

and yes you can put it on a librarian dreadnought, though you are down to str6 force weapon if you do.

[somerandomdude]

I noticed how awesome the frag cannon was as soon as I got the codex, I love podding them behind a vehicle, auto hitting with 2 str 6 rending attacks and a meltagun is pretty nice on a squad of leman russ

and yes you can put it on a librarian dreadnought, though you are down to str6 force weapon if you do.

Hmm... are you not automatically at strength 6 for your force weapon?

A Furiouso Librarian has two weapons - a force weapon and a DCCW. You should be forced to designate which one you are attacking with, correct? A DCCW is not a normal close combat weapon.

But you're right, the frag cannon is awesome. That's why it's important to read the entire codex. 10+ rending wounds (assuming you didn't absolutely mess up and place him where he couldn't hit 5 or more guys), and don't forget the heavy flamer on the other arm!:D Honestly, this, along with the fast vindicators, was what excited me and made me consider forming a small BA army.

And since you can't give them psychic powers, twin lightning claws with the extra attacks, and the frag cannon all at the same time, it's just as powerful as having three different options in the codex with those options.

"Here's an idea, we have a guy who can move enemy units around and cluster them together for blasts, and can shoot a battle cannon, and can score with toughness 5 and FNP (and split up amazingly into 5-20 guys)."

Considering you can't do all that you said with the Furiousos, it's not terribly crazy.

[Angelus Mortifer]

It can take 3 templates overall if you like - now that's spells infantry death in many different languages :D


(I think nobody was mentioning it out loud so that the opposition wouldn't notice until it was too late ;) )

[SamOfTheTribe]

Ok, I have wondered this for years so I finally have to ask. What happened that allowed him to hit 12+ models with one template? Really, short of Lash, I can't think of a reasonable scenario for this to happen in.

Sincerely,
Sam

[Bigred]

Hey SamOfTheTribe,

The frag cannon is an Assault 2 template weapon, so with a big squad packed in, you hit them all, then do it all over. If the dread's other arm has a heavy flamer, you lay down a third template and one can see the potential for shocking numbers of wounds inflicted on a single squad.

As for the packing in of models, it is very common after an assault on on a vehicle, which leaves squads piled in pretty tight.

[Tynskel]

How on earth did we all go on so long without anyone mentioning the Blood Angel Furioso Dreadnought's Frag Cannon upgrade?

We just saw a dread put 23 wounds on a unit with it the turn it came out of a pod... That many wounds means who cares about armor saves... and the rending is just a cherry on top.

Assault 2 template weapons are a mean piece of business. Now the question is can you equip the frag cannon on a Furioso Librarian. I think you can...

That's because you DON'T READ PEOPLE'S COMMENTS. Or when I write one, you think I am full of Sh!t.

Day One when the codex came out I was saying-- Str6 Frag Cannon with rending... average drop pod landing will be 14 hits plus another 7 from a Hv Flamer...

The answer for the libby is YES. you can replace a blood fist for free.

I like to do it and take Wings of Sanguinius and Smite. Smite is for when the drop pod lands-- it is like a little 'Hah!' when you land.

[SamOfTheTribe]

Ok, so adding in the Heavy Flamer, that's still 8 models per template, assuming you only fail 1 roll to wound.

So I guess my real question is this: Why do people ever willingly have their squads deployed so close together, let alone when they are facing podding tri-template dreds of doom? I have seen players at 'Ardboys with tactical squads deployed in base contact with them selves in open terrain (no cover) ~20 inches from enemy vindicators when the vindicator had the next turn. So after years of asking people politely why they do this and getting no satisfactory answer, I had to ask here.

Sincerely,
Sam

Ps. I get the piled in after a vehicle assault bit, that is the one thing that is difficult to get around. As I am guessing that is the case here, please forgive the quasi rant about unit spacing, it's just one of those things that I have seen lose games for people over and over, and to this day just don't get.

[Tynskel]

Not so many people are as bright as you are. ;) Laziness might be the answer...

It isn't always about packing them in close. My favorite weapon to take is Flamer in a Drop Pod. When you land, you have a wide range to place your flamer to maximize hits-- there really isn't much your opponent can do to prevent you from hitting roughly 7 guys (if you land at point blank range).

I wish the strangle web was a little stronger- coming out of a Spore Pod with 2 of those things would be quite nasty. As of right now, it puts out maybe 2-3 wounds. Maybe...

[eriochrome]

I think the idea of an two shot template weapon is just lame. Here place this template twice on the exact same people and get twice to wound rolls.

[L192837465]

I think the idea of an two shot template weapon is just lame. Here place this template twice on the exact same people and get twice to wound rolls.



Don't play a burna ork army.

It's pretty common for one unit to rack up 90+ wounds on one unit.

[DarkLink]

Hmm... are you not automatically at strength 6 for your force weapon?


Force Weapons are close combat weapons, making them useless the turn you drop in. Plus, a Librarian Dred can choose to strike at Str 10 with it's normal power fist, if it has one. It just doesn't benefit from the force weapon in that case.


Ok, so adding in the Heavy Flamer, that's still 8 models per template, assuming you only fail 1 roll to wound.

So I guess my real question is this: Why do people ever willingly have their squads deployed so close together,

You might not think it likely on paper, but in practice putting tons of wounds on a unit with a couple templates is quite easy. Especially with tank shocks. I've put 20+ wounds on a unit with a pair of Incinerators multiple times before (and that's after the roll to wound).

[entendre_entendre]

Frag cannons are beastly, and I pointed them out when I made my confirmation of BA rumours in the news section (page 43 of the thread). S6 Assault 2 templates with rending are always going to be nasty. They just seem less dangerous than a flying dread of death, but when that flying dread has one of these, it's nasty.

[Schnitzel]

I decided I'm going to try one out this weekend along with a daka Raven.
Stormraven w/ Heavy Bolter, Assault Cannon and Hurricane Bolters. Drop the Dread from it and trip temp spam burn. Rawr!
But the question is, Tac Squad or Assault Squad in it's contents?

[Tynskel]

I decided I'm going to try one out this weekend along with a daka Raven.
Stormraven w/ Heavy Bolter, Assault Cannon and Hurricane Bolters. Drop the Dread from it and trip temp spam burn. Rawr!
But the question is, Tac Squad or Assault Squad in it's contents?

More Dakka! Take a Frag Cannon Dread with Hv Flamer and Magna Grapple as well as a Tactical squad with more Dakka!

[Bigred]

I admit Tynskel, that my "only take well rounded units" inner voice is crumbling in the face of the fragcannon/heavy flamer combo.

I think we need to have some type of "most wounds inflicted by a in a single turn by a furioso" competition in this thread for us Loungers...

[synack]

Can the storm raven turbo boost + tank shock?

I ask, cause it could be pretty nasty to turbo boost the storm ravem forward, bunching up your opponents models and then drop off the dread with skies of blood + locator beacon and then frag cannon eveything that is nicely bunched up.

[Tynskel]

Can the storm raven turbo boost + tank shock?

I ask, cause it could be pretty nasty to turbo boost the storm ravem forward, bunching up your opponents models and then drop off the dread with skies of blood + locator beacon and then frag cannon eveything that is nicely bunched up.

Not a tank, so no tank shock.

[Tynskel]

I admit Tynskel, that my "only take well rounded units" inner voice is crumbling in the face of the fragcannon/heavy flamer combo.

I think we need to have some type of "most wounds inflicted by a in a single turn by a furioso" competition in this thread for us Loungers...

Well rounded units are fun...

I am more from the camp of a variety of units, each with their purpose. It is nice to have a back-up--- which the Hv Flamer Frag Cannon Furioso still is str 10!

:)

[Mycroft Holmes]

Assault 2 template weapons are a mean piece of business. Now the question is can you equip the frag cannon on a Furioso Librarian. I think you can...

Absolutely; but you're losing the +1 attack for the Force Weapon and the ability to scratch AV 13.

It's a serious choice.

Mycroft

[Mycroft Holmes]

I think we need to have some type of "most wounds inflicted by a in a single turn by a furioso" competition in this thread for us Loungers...


Sounds like an excellent idea... :)

Mycroft

[krispy]

so would this work?:
you would have the dread near the enemy (within charge range) and then have a rhino or some other vehicle (for example) tank shock a unit to get them to move out the way and bunch up - then when they are all close you fire on them all and then charge the survivors -

cos that sounds like fun! ;)

/k

[Torcano]

Well rounded units are fun...

I am more from the camp of a variety of units, each with their purpose. It is nice to have a back-up--- which the Hv Flamer Frag Cannon Furioso still is str 10!

:)

Unfortunately it isn't :(

Once you replace the DCCW with the Frag Cannon the Dreadnought drops to S6. Thats it's actual STR and its the DCCW that doubles it (up to 10). Still, S6 isn't to shabby when you are dropping so much dakka on them.

[DarkLink]

so would this work?:
you would have the dread near the enemy (within charge range) and then have a rhino or some other vehicle (for example) tank shock a unit to get them to move out the way and bunch up - then when they are all close you fire on them all and then charge the survivors -

cos that sounds like fun! ;)

/k

Bingo. Good thing your Rhinos are fast, they can get where they need to be.

[Tynskel]

Unfortunately it isn't :(

Once you replace the DCCW with the Frag Cannon the Dreadnought drops to S6. Thats it's actual STR and its the DCCW that doubles it (up to 10). Still, S6 isn't to shabby when you are dropping so much dakka on them.

you are thinking about the Librarian which has a Force Weapon (Str6) and a DCCW.

The regular furioso has two DCCW, replace one with the Frag Cannon, you still have a single DCCW.

[Col.Straken]

Ok, so adding in the Heavy Flamer, that's still 8 models per template, assuming you only fail 1 roll to wound.

So I guess my real question is this: Why do people ever willingly have their squads deployed so close together, let alone when they are facing podding tri-template dreds of doom? I have seen players at 'Ardboys with tactical squads deployed in base contact with them selves in open terrain (no cover) ~20 inches from enemy vindicators when the vindicator had the next turn. So after years of asking people politely why they do this and getting no satisfactory answer, I had to ask here.

Sincerely,
Sam

Ps. I get the piled in after a vehicle assault bit, that is the one thing that is difficult to get around. As I am guessing that is the case here, please forgive the quasi rant about unit spacing, it's just one of those things that I have seen lose games for people over and over, and to this day just don't get.

Just a thought, what if they group together to create less area for if it scatters, bad choice, but sometimes works :) its funny when they put the template down and go, "ohhh this is gonna hurt!" and you think, bugger, i shouldnt have Deep Struck those termies, then Scatter 5" (after removing BS) yea, its unlucky, but now, rather than getting all 5 guys, or even 1 or 2 guys, they get none! now who is laughing...

but in general, it is usually better to try and spread out a bit.

[Warpath]

Are you guys sure that a Librarian Furioso can equip a Frag Cannon?? cause wings of sanguinius + FC would be so much win... next turn after disembarking from a drop pod of course.

[jeffersonian000]

It depends of if there is an order of operations for selecting unit upgrades. If so, then no as the Librarian upgrade is the last one selected. However, if no, then yes you could upgrade to a Librarian followed by swapping the remaining Blood Fist w/ Stormbolter for a free Frag Cannon.

I'm pretty sure that there is no order of operation, as each upgrade specifies which specific abilities are required/swapped.

SJ

[Sanguinary Dan]

And don't forget that the Librarian Dread can still get Sanguine Sword. So if you didn't use Wings (or whatever) you can still go into CC with a strength of 10. Hell, even if the Force Weapon arm is destroyed the FL attacks at S10 with Sanguine Sword. Combine that with the Frag Cannon and you don't really care what kind of target you'll face.

[DarkLink]

And don't forget that the Librarian Dread can still get Sanguine Sword. So if you didn't use Wings (or whatever) you can still go into CC with a strength of 10. Hell, even if the Force Weapon arm is destroyed the FL attacks at S10 with Sanguine Sword. Combine that with the Frag Cannon and you don't really care what kind of target you'll face.

On this note, I find it kinda funny that they bother to give the Dread a force weapon. It's already Str 10, which will instant kill most multi wound models anyways. The only thing it really matters against is 'nidz, really.

[Hugz4Genestealers]

On the other hand, if you want to kill nid MCs that badly, a regular libby with a force weapon and whatever that power is that boosts his strength are gonna do just as good a job as a dreadnought with a force weapon, and if the libby's in termy armor, probably stands a better chance of surviving, too

[Sanguinary Dan]

Except that a Librarian who takes one wound from that big bug is a grease stain, while the Libbie Furioso can live thru several hits. If he gets lucky. Plus the Furioso has the ability to ignore or obliterate anything smaller while the Marine Librarian can get killed by termagants.

And of course the Furioso can fire two weapons or one weapon and one shooting psy power.

[Hugz4Genestealers]

Well, really there's only one nid MC that packs a big enough of a punch to squash a regular librarian in one go, that being the carnifex, but the current metagame is seeing a MUCH greater prevalence of tervigons and trygons, who, being str 6, admittedly wound on a 2+, but don't cause ID, and can still be negated by an invuln save. A furioso dread, on the other hand, only has its AV 13 to protect it, which, against a trygon's 6(7 w/ FC) str and 2d6 armor penetration, isn't going to protect it for long, and while it probably won't go down in one hit, once the damage rolls start racking up, its combat effectiveness declines rapidly. The increased amount of weapons fire is an obvious advantage over the non-dread version, but I was really only intending to highlight the less-than stellar idea of putting a force weapon on a dread.

[DarkLink]

Except that a Librarian who takes one wound from that big bug is a grease stain, while the Libbie Furioso can live thru several hits. If he gets lucky. Plus the Furioso has the ability to ignore or obliterate anything smaller while the Marine Librarian can get killed by termagants.

And of course the Furioso can fire two weapons or one weapon and one shooting psy power.

Aside from the Carnifex, I'd go with the Librarian. Monstrous Creatures rip Walkers apart in CC.

[Hugz4Genestealers]

Precisely my opinion.

[Tynskel]

The libby Dread can fire more than 2 weapons:

Frag Cannon
Magna Grapple
And a Psyker Shooting Power

Quite a gun beast! I am liking Smite more n' more with this one-- or the Fry a model dead power (you choose if you get lucky casting).

[terminus]

That's because you DON'T READ PEOPLE'S COMMENTS. Or when I write one, you think I am full of Sh!t.

Day One when the codex came out I was saying-- Str6 Frag Cannon with rending... average drop pod landing will be 14 hits plus another 7 from a Hv Flamer...

The answer for the libby is YES. you can replace a blood fist for free.

I like to do it and take Wings of Sanguinius and Smite. Smite is for when the drop pod lands-- it is like a little 'Hah!' when you land.

You CANNOT have a frag cannon and a heavy flamer on a Librarian Furioso. The Force Weapon does not have a built-in ranged weapon, and you lose the blood fist's heavy flamer when you trade it out for a frag cannon.


On this note, I find it kinda funny that they bother to give the Dread a force weapon. It's already Str 10, which will instant kill most multi wound models anyways. The only thing it really matters against is 'nidz, really.
It's S6 with the force weapon.

[DarkLink]

It's S6 with the force weapon.

I know. But a standard DCCW is str 10. They almost could have just left the DCCW on and called it good, lol.

[Sanguinary Dan]

The libby Dread can fire more than 2 weapons:

Frag Cannon
Magna Grapple
And a Psyker Shooting Power

Quite a gun beast! I am liking Smite more n' more with this one-- or the Fry a model dead power (you choose if you get lucky casting).

Since when? Walkers can fire two weapons. A psy shooting attack "count as" a weapon doesn't it?

[DarkLink]

No, a walker can shoot all of its weapons, same as any other vehicle. It can also do it when it moves, unlike other vehicles.

[Sanguinary Dan]

:confused: I could have sworn....

Oh well, if my dreadnoughts are more dangerous than I thought I guess I'll just have to man up and deal with that fact. ;)

[Ork4Life]

I know this is a discussion about BA Dreads with Frag Cannons but I'd like to point out for roughly the same about of points Orks can take 3 Killa Kans each with a grotzooka with is 18" S 6 AP 5 Heavy 2 Blast :D

[Sanguinary Dan]

Silly greenskin. Blasts scatter. And Grotzookas don't rend. And Kans don't have AV13, WS6, Melta Guns and Magna Grapples. And other than a game in the Reaver Titan Football League when have you seen a Kan fly?

Sorry foolish fungus, 3 'Zooka Kans do no not equal a Frag Cannon Furioso. :D

[Ork4Life]

Silly Space Marine. Its true blast scatter but you get 6 shots which is still 2 direct hit statistically plus the the accuracy of a space marine blast and killa kan is 1 inch. furthermore 18" of range is better against meltas. Plus the overall area that six blasts is greater than two templete, which means more wounds. Lets not forget killa kans never going running around without their handy dandy 4+ cover save from a big mech. Oh yah thats right as well furioso have melta guns, effective a 6". It only takes one melta gun to destroy a furioso, but 3 meltaguns to kill-a kan unit. Even in close combat, w/o the charge 6 S10 attacks that hit on 5+ vs 2 S10 attacks that hit on 3+ sorry but statistically its in my kans favor. So i am not necessarily talking about them going head to head over and over again, not that I don't think that Kans could keep pace, but we could argue those odds forever. I am just making a comparison between the two's overall abilities.

[DarkLink]

There's little point in comparing those two units, as they are far, far too different from each other in most respects. It's a rather pointless comparison.

[Ork4Life]

They are both dreadnoughts with unique S6 weapons.

[DarkLink]

And Powerfist/Storm Bolter Terminators and Thunderhammer/Stormshield Terminators both are Str 8 in combat, with Terminator armor. Yet they fill very different rolls.

Not only are kans and Furioso dreads different in a void, the armies they come with are even more different, and play very, very differently.

[Sanguinary Dan]

And Powerfist/Storm Bolter Terminators and Thunderhammer/Stormshield Terminators both are Str 8 in combat, with Terminator armor. Yet they fill very different rolls.

Not only are kans and Furioso dreads different in a void, the armies they come with are even more different, and play very, very differently.
And if I'd been more coherent and less goofy that'd have been more obviously my meaning as well.