Combat drugs

[notoriousFAT]

Im having a problem understanding what the rules are are referring to. The rules for drugs says this:

Roll a D6 for each wych unit then apply that drug to the unit. If you have a succubus with a drug dispenser then it's effects apply to them and replace the squads own effects.

Contextually it says to roll for each wych squad, then for each succubus' drug dispenser that units drugs are exchanged for the ones chosen.

This is where im having a problem because I was told the word them is a plural word only referring to multiple people. Then i've been told them is used in the singular referring to a genderless person.

Just looked in my wife's English book (she is an English teacher at a local highschool) this is what is says pertaining to pronouns:

Personal pronouns:

singular - I, me, my, mine, you, your, yours, he, him ,his, she, her hers, it, its

Plural - we, us, our, ours, you, your yours, they , them, their theirs

I say all that to say this. If one uses a plural pronoun in the singular for whatever reason then it is improper and incorrect. Therefore, i see it as pertaining to the unit and not only the succubus only.

thoughts?

[BuFFo]

Simple.

1) Wyches roll for their squad drug before deployment. A Wych Squad rolls 1 for 12" Assault.

2) During the game, your Succubus uses her Combat Drug Dispenser at the start of combat. She chooses +1 Attack and Reroll Misses. She replaces her 12" assault squad drug with the two new effects for this combat.

Combat Drug Dispenser is for the Succubus only.

[notoriousFAT]

Combat Drug Dispenser is for the Succubus only.

I'm just not reading it that way. Truth is I can't find the answer, that's why i had to go to the English book ><

[plasticaddict]

You have to read the whole sentence to put the word in context. It may not be "proper" English however it is apparent from the usage that the Succubus drug dispenser only affects the Succubus.

[DarkLink]

Don't expect GW to be grammatically correct. They even use dice in the singular (it's supposed to be 'a die', not 'a dice').

[notoriousFAT]

Roll a D6 for each wych squad at the start of the battle....If the wych succubus(noun) leading the squad(noun) has a combat dispenser(noun) then its(pronoun referring to dispenser) effects only( only- referring to the succubus' unit, not to be mistaken the lot of wych units as seen earlier in the paragraph) apply to them(plural pronoun referring to the noun squad) and replace the effects of the squad's own evil concoction. (squad's - possessive; the drugs of the squad)

this is a clear brake down of what the sentence is talking about. There is clear indication the wych's drug dispenser replaces the effects of the squad's drugs.

[BuFFo]

Great job! :D

You can break that sentence down however you want, but in real life (as opposed to intertubes), it is still only the Succubus that gets the combat drug dispenser benefit.

Thems the breaks! :rolleyes:

- edit -

The word 'them' means 'all the Succubi' in your army, not the singular Succubus, in the example. It is called bad writing on GW's part.

This was discussed many moons ago on the old GW forums, and it comes down to bad writing. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Lerra]

Around here we play that the Succubi's drugs affect the whole squad. I'd say either interpretation is valid and there is no official answer. It just depends on how you choose to play it in your area.

[BuFFo]

I totally respect that!

[notoriousFAT]

fair enough

[BuFFo]

You know, I believe you are right.

For the first time in a decade, I read that rule 'differently' and it makes total sense to me now.

I have argued this rule over and over, and this is the first time I actually understand what the other side of the coin was trying to say all these years.

I'll be playing it as the drug replacing the squad's drugs from now on.

Thank you notoriusFAT for helping me see the light!

[notoriousFAT]

that makes me wanna cheer^^. I just recently picked up the DE codex like 2 weeks ago. Kinda sad its been out for 12 years before i had a chance to look at it. We gotta spread the word and liberate wyches EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!

[BlindGunn]

Are you guys taking wounds on every model in the entire squad if you roll doubles after taking multiple drugs?

By your interpretation, your entire squad should be able to use multiple drugs at once. But there's nothing in the Wargear description (which desciribes the "purchased" version used by a Succubus willing to pay the points) that says it affects the entire squad.

If Combat Drugs could affect the entire squad as described in the wargear section, it would be worth a lot more than 25 points - just for the flexability of choosing one affect per turn for (potentially) 20 wyches at a time.

To my understanding, Wargear can only ever affect the character that paid for it unless specified in the Wargear description.

Yes, the squad rule is a very badly worded rule, especially if English isn't your first language. I can see the confusion as you try to point it out. However, I always read it as "ALL Succubie (thus the "they") of all Wych squads who purchase Combat Drugs as Wargear, use those (the Wargear) rules instead of the Squads' Combat Drug Rules".

If you can get everyone in your area to agree to your interpretation, Then go for it!

I put forward your explanation around here and no one reads the rule that way, nor would they be willing to play against me if I did. In a tournament setting - TALK TO THE REF!! This is one of those calls that will kill any Sportsmanship scores without the tournament committee announcing a decision right off the bat. Surprises like this are not popular - especially if they rule against you.

Good Luck! And hopefully the next Codex fixes the issue!

[BuFFo]

Are you guys taking wounds on every model in the entire squad if you roll doubles after taking multiple drugs?

No, why would a unit of Wyches do so?


Theres nothing in the Wargear description (which desciribes the "purchased" version used by a Succubus willing to pay the points) that says it affects the entire squad.

That's because you don't use the wargear description in a vaccum. The Succubus itself has rules which govern the Drugs for squad usage under the drug section for wyches.


If Combat Drugs could affect the entire squad as described in the wargear section, it would be worth a lot more than 25 points - just for the flexability of choosing one affect per turn for (potentially) 20 wyches at a time.

There is no way of knowing what something would cost if 'this and that'. None of us were there when they made the codex back in 1998.


To my understanding, Wargear can only ever affect the character that paid for it unless specified in the Wargear description.

You are wrong, because in this instance you are told under the unit description what effects a Drug Dispensor has on a Succubus and her unit.


Yes, the squad rule is a very badly worded rule, especially if English isn't your first language. I can see the confusion as you try to point it out. However, I always read it as "ALL Succubie (thus the "they") of all Wych squads who purchase Combat Drugs as Wargear, use those (the Wargear) rules instead of the Squads' Combat Drug Rules".

Succubus, in this instance, is used in the singular. The only plural form used here for 'them' is the squad. A single Succubus is not a 'them', but the squad is.

It is impossible for 'them' to mean all the Succubi in your army because you can't use a Drug Dispensor and effect all the Succubi at once! You need one Dispenser for each Succubus.

If you want to play it where 'them' means all the army's Succubi, then you only need on Drug Dispenser to affect all the Succubi in the army, lol!

Anyway, the very start of the rule, you are told the rule affects a single squad at a time. So 'them' could never mean all the Succubi in the army, since the rule only covers a single unit.


If you can get everyone in your area to agree to your interpretation, Then go for it!

If people agree to playng by the rules you mean, then I agree!


I put forward your explanation around here and no one reads the rule that way, nor would they be willing to play against me if I did. In a tournament setting - TALK TO THE REF!! This is one of those calls that will kill any Sportsmanship scores without the tournament committee announcing a decision right off the bat. Surprises like this are not popular - especially if they rule against you.

I agree. If your group decides to house rule the drug and use it that way, thats fine. My group has read it over, and we have decided that the English that was broken down in the first page by NotoriousFat is pretty indisputable, unless English isn't your second language :)

[notoriousFAT]

The problem I'm finding on the forums is that people are dismissing the conversation about the drugs because the codex is old and most people are assuming it works a certain way. I brought this rule up to my guys in the local tournament scene and they all agreed that it has always worked this way. Honestly, the ruling that the drugs work for the whole squad really isn't that game breaking so why the up roar?

The rules for squad usage is indisputable according to the wych and reaver bike entry, and as for who takes the the wounds? Well as per the first sentence in the combat drug entry it says the character with the drug dispenser takes it. If you roll doubles, she dies and the unit loses the ability.

Here is some math for you. The drugs are 25 pts per succubus. Aggonizer is 20. The succubus is 20 points. That is the standard build for a wych succubus. That's 65 points for a 1 wound model that can die on doubles, which after the round she dies, you lose the ability to choose what drugs you want. Sounds fair. Not to mention the squad as a whole is the price of a land raider after getting 9 more wyches, wych weapons and plasma grenades, a raider and 2 blasters, which are again the normal kit out around my area. So for the points of a land raider you should get something that's worth it, especially when you have a S3 T3 6+ armor save model.....

The points may vary but you really can't justify playing the wych at all without that build, and let's be honest, they are the only CC that can stand a chance in today's game (a tricked out archon with incubi retinue not withstanding).

[BuFFo]

I have been doing fine for many years playing the drugs the 'old way'.

Then again, I guess I know what I am doing with Wyches.... Now with the drugs working the 'right' way, they can actually stand up to the latest CC monsters with ease.

[Archon Charybdis]

Honestly, the ruling that the drugs work for the whole squad really isn't that game breaking so why the up roar?

Because I would disagree with that, I think it could be very unbalancing for the whole Wych squad to be able to pick and choose their drugs each round. Also:

"Since at least the 15th century, "they" (though still used with verbs conjugated in the plural, not the singular), "them", "themself", "themselves", and "their" have been used, in an increasingly more accepted fashion, as singular pronouns. This usage of the word "they" is often thus called the singular "they". The singular "they" is widely used and accepted in Britain, Australia, and North America in conversation and, often, in at least informal writing as well. It is important to note that this is not recognized by the SATs and other standardized tests."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun

[BuFFo]

[QUOTE=Archon Charybdis;79387]Because I would disagree with that, I think it could be very unbalancing for the whole Wych squad to be able to pick and choose their drugs each round. Also:QUOTE]

Well, you see, we are going with what is written. You are going on a personal opinion as to how you think the unit should be balanced.

I have played a few games with the 'real' way to use Drugs, and it is perfectly fine. The times when my Succubus kills herself far out weigh the times she doesn't.

[Vindur]

I can see where both sides are coming from on this. Personally Ive always played it just replaces the succubus's drugs, and would IMO say thats what was meant with RAI.

As for the "them" usage in the sentence, maybe I just can't speak English properly but I use them as third person singular regularly

[BuFFo]

I can see where both sides are coming from on this. Personally Ive always played it just replaces the succubus's drugs, and would IMO say thats what was meant with RAI.

As for the "them" usage in the sentence, maybe I just can't speak English properly but I use them as third person singular regularly

I agree.

"You know Bob and his friends, right? You know... them?"

Obviously 'them' refers to only Bob!

:P

[Vindur]

I meant in terms of unknown gender

"I was talking to my tutor today"
"What did you say to them?"

This can be applied to the rule in question as the succubus can be either gender.

Provided that this usage is correct of course.

[BuFFo]

Well, then you just say 'him' as male terms are also neutral in the English language.

If the tutor happens to be a female, you then just simply say, Oh, my tutor is a woman.

I have never heard anyone refer to a single person as 'them' in my entire life. This is a first for me lol.

[Bean]

Vindur is correct to an extent. "Them" is used fairly frequently as a gender-neutral singular pronoun by many English speakers. In a colloquial sense, it is correct.

Generally speaking, though, it is still considered incorrect in an academic sense. While people may understand what you are saying, "them" is, essentially, a plural pronoun and its use as a singular pronoun is unnecessary and often misleading. It is considered an error by pretty much everyone who teaches english, and it is certainly an error in technical writing.

If the author in this instance were trying to refer to a single model, his or her choice of the word "them" was an error. In a situation where there are multiple possible antecedents, some plural and some singular, choosing a plural pronoun and using it as a singular gender-neutral pronoun is a mistake.

If the gender of the antecedent (presuming the antecedant is a person) is ambiguous and the antecedent singular, "him or her," or some variation thereof, is the correct choice.

If there are multiple possible antecedents, and the pronoun is plural (such as "them") the correct reading would be to presume that the pronoun refers to one of the plural antecedents. Without any specific guidance from the author, presuming that the "them" refers to a singular antecedent is basically an error.

[DarkLink]

I use it if (and only if) I don't know gender for some reason. Like, if a guy that has really long hair, effeminate features, makeup, and an... odd choice of clothing walks by. At least, I think that was a guy. Maybe not, now that I think about it. So... yeah...

[BuFFo]

Vindur is correct to an extent. "Them" is used fairly frequently as a gender-neutral singular pronoun by many English speakers. In a colloquial sense, it is correct.

Generally speaking, though, it is still considered incorrect in an academic sense. While people may understand what you are saying, "them" is, essentially, a plural pronoun and its use as a singular pronoun is unnecessary and often misleading. It is considered an error by pretty much everyone who teaches english, and it is certainly an error in technical writing.

If the author in this instance were trying to refer to a single model, his or her choice of the word "them" was an error. In a situation where there are multiple possible antecedents, some plural and some singular, choosing a plural pronoun and using it as a singular gender-neutral pronoun is a mistake.

If the gender of the antecedent (presuming the antecedant is a person) is ambiguous and the antecedent singular, "him or her," or some variation thereof, is the correct choice.

If there are multiple possible antecedents, and the pronoun is plural (such as "them") the correct reading would be to presume that the pronoun refers to one of the plural antecedents. Without any specific guidance from the author, presuming that the "them" refers to a singular antecedent is basically an error.

I am sure that, in college academic books, and in some circlse of proper egotists sitting around a table drinking tea, 'them' is used to talk about a singular person.

In real life, on the mean streets I grew up, I have never heard that used this way ever.

So then it comes to this... Were the people who contributed to the DE codex tea drinking, upper class aristocrats, or just regular human beings?

Either way, if you take 'them' to mean the Succubi in the army, then all you need is one Succubi with a Drug Dispenser, because if she uses the Dispenser, it changes the drugs for ALL the Succubus in the army.

That makes even less sense lol.

[Bean]

I think you'll find it's generally the other way around, actually, Buffo. You might not have heard "them" used as a singular pronoun, but it is fairly common in informal speech and writing.

Somewhat ironically, it is from the "circles of proper egotists sitting around a table drinking tea" that you'd be most likely to hear that using "them" as a singular pronoun is not proper English.

For what it's worth, I agree with both you and your proper egotists in this instance: them as a singular pronoun is not proper English, but it would still be a mistake to associate the "singular they" with academia--it is very much a layman's sort of term, while academia generally spurns it.

[BuFFo]

I think you'll find it's generally the other way around, actually, Buffo. You might not have heard "them" used as a singular pronoun, but it is fairly common in informal speech and writing.

Somewhat ironically, it is from the "circles of proper egotists sitting around a table drinking tea" that you'd be most likely to hear that using "them" as a singular pronoun is not proper English.

For what it's worth, I agree with both you and your proper egotists in this instance: them as a singular pronoun is not proper English, but it would still be a mistake to associate the "singular they" with academia--it is very much a layman's sort of term, while academia generally spurns it.
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