Independent Characters and Assault Morale

[Paul]

Alright, I don't know how this worked when I played it, so here is the question:

I have a "squad" consisting of:

An Inquisitor Lord with Retinue (3 Combat Servitors), with an attached Techpriest (no servitors or else wouldn't be IC), another attached Techpriest (same as above), two attached Lord Commissars and a priest.

How the hell does morale work if I lose an assault, do I take a test for each IC and the squad? Do I take one huge one? Are they all stubborn from the Lord Commissar or do they just stay because of Iron Will on the Inquisitor Lord?

I think, in the game, we decided everyone independently took a morale check but were all 10's from the Commissar's ability. Needless to say, I stayed, but was still a bit awkward.

[DarkLink]

Independent characters are only separate units while actually resolving attacks. When it comes time to decide morale/no retreat stuff, they merge back into one unit.

Thus, in the case you mention, you would treat them all as one unit, and use the highest present leadership.


Now, the Commissar Lord grants stubborn to his squad explicitly in his rules. That one's clear. Same with the Iron Will of the Inquisitor. It specifically states that his ability is extended to any unit he joins.

[Tynskel]

wouldn't that mean that Shrike passes on Infiltrate to any independent characters attached to the unit he infiltrates with...

Just trying to be consistent with the rules here...

[Nabterayl]

Yes, it would, assuming you come out of the "can Shrike join units before he infiltrates" debate in such a way that independent characters can join units before they infiltrate in the first place.

[Tynskel]

Yes, it would, assuming you come out of the "can Shrike join units before he infiltrates" debate in such a way that independent characters can join units before they infiltrate in the first place.

The rules for deployment are so loose that it becomes a moot point. If shrike can join units before he infiltrates, why can't those other characters!

All the rules state is that units with the infiltrate rule are deployed last-- if you can attach shrike to make a unit infiltrate, you can attach other independent characters at the same time- they all become part of the same unit, which by shrike's rules means they all have infiltrate.


Really, the big keywords for deployment are that 1) stay in your deployment zone (except for infiltrators), and 2) make sure your opponent knows what all of your reserves are, and how they are being used.

[Nabterayl]

The rules for deployment are so loose that it becomes a moot point. If shrike can join units before he infiltrates, why can't those other characters!

All the rules state is that units with the infiltrate rule are deployed last-- if you can attach shrike to make a unit infiltrate, you can attach other independent characters at the same time- they all become part of the same unit, which by shrike's rules means they all have infiltrate.
Yes, I know.

As you know, I happen to think that independent characters may be joined to other units by fiat prior to infiltration, so long as they end the deployment phase in coherency with the units they have so joined. As you also know, that is not the universal reading of the rulebook.

If one believes, as I do, that any independent character can join a unit prior to infiltration, then yes, Shrike could confer infiltrate even to other ICs that had joined the unit he had joined prior to infiltration. If one believes, as many do, that no independent character can join a unit prior to infiltration, then obviously whether Shrike can confer infiltrate to other ICs is a moot point. That's all I was saying. Since Paul's question has been answered, and since you and I happen to be in agreement on this point, I suggest that we drop further discussion in this thread.

[DarkLink]

wouldn't that mean that Shrike passes on Infiltrate to any independent characters attached to the unit he infiltrates with...

Just trying to be consistent with the rules here...

Read the entries for the Commissar Lord and the Inquistor Lord. They both explicitly pass their stubborn and Iron Will on to their squad.

a.k.a (not word for word, but close enough);

"The Commissar Lord and his unit are stubborn."

And "the Inquistor Lord and any unit he joins may choose to pass or fail any morale tests."




And yes, Shrike does pass Infiltrate on to his squad. No one can question that. The problem is, he can't join the squad and pass Infiltrate on until after they've already deployed in some fashion. There's a loophole that prevents Shrike and a squad from infiltrating together. Stupid? Yes. But it is technically correct, and completely consistent with the cases above.

[Tynskel]

Read the entries for the Commissar Lord and the Inquistor Lord. They both explicitly pass their stubborn and Iron Will on to their squad.

a.k.a (not word for word, but close enough);

"The Commissar Lord and his unit are stubborn."

And "the Inquistor Lord and any unit he joins may choose to pass or fail any morale tests."




And yes, Shrike does pass Infiltrate on to his squad. No one can question that. The problem is, he can't join the squad and pass Infiltrate on until after they've already deployed in some fashion. There's a loophole that prevents Shrike and a squad from infiltrating together. Stupid? Yes. But it is technically correct, and completely consistent with the cases above.

uh... did you read the previous posts by Nab n' I?

The deployment rules are written quite loosely.

Read the Infiltration rules, IC rules, and Deployment rules: Nothing states that you cannot deploy the independent character with the squad at the same time. Anyone who thinks shrike cannot be deployed with a squad and bestow Infiltrate cannot cite a single rule that says he cannot do this. p.75 just states units with the rule deploy last. Shrike is just deployed with the squad at the same time (as well as any attached IC) p.48. p.92 just gives the order of deployment. There is no rule that states you deploy one unit at a time. You just deploy everything at once.

Since they (shrike, the unit, and any other ICs) are deployed at the same time, they all have infiltrate.

This is an example that people are taking rules out of context- you are saying the unit has to be deployed first--- where does the rule say that? p. 48 does not state this! Nor does 92 or 75. However, when you combine all three pages together, and take the context of p.86-94, the rules for deployment are written as a narrative, where you and your opponent discuss every step of the way.

[DarkLink]

No, actually. I was responding directly to your post responding to mine.

And I seem to recall that the last thread there was a debate over Shrike infiltrating, the consensus was that, technically, Shrike couldn't actually join a squad. I could be wrong, but whatever. I'd let my opponent do it anyways. I could have sworn that Nab had the exact same opinion, too, though I guess not.

Edit: for that matter, why did you even bring up Shrike in the first place? I see no relevance in particular to the OP's question. The OP's question was about one unit granting another unit special rules. The Shrike issue isn't about who Shrike can give infiltrate too. It's about when Shrike attaches to a unit during deployment.

[Tynskel]

I don't really care what the consensus was-- they cannot actually cite a rule that states that shrike n' his unit cannot infiltrate. Not to mention, most people forget the context of the rules, and therefore cite improperly-- Just as you were stating that "the problem is, he can't join the squad and pass Infiltrate on until after they've already deployed in some fashion. "--- you cannot find this in the rules anywhere.

You are making that up.--- I know why, everybody remembers 4th Edition was a step wise deployment, 1 unit at a time-- but the 5th Edition rules do not state this at all, and none of the language is the same, either.

[Archon]

Alright, I don't know how this worked when I played it, so here is the question:

I have a "squad" consisting of:

An Inquisitor Lord with Retinue (3 Combat Servitors), with an attached Techpriest (no servitors or else wouldn't be IC), another attached Techpriest (same as above), two attached Lord Commissars and a priest.



Note that the Techpriests - if taken from codex imp.guard - are not independent characters:(

[karandras]

How can you have an Inquisitor Lord AND 2 Lord Commisars in the first place??? That would mean 3 HQs...

As for Shrike, clearly the intent of his special rule is to permit a squad joined with him to infiltrate. Technically it does not work, but that is clearly the intent. However, the rules are quite clear that this would not extend to any independent character that cannot on its own infiltrate.

P.48 - "For example, if an independent character without the infiltrate special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate."

P.75 - "...These rules are lost by a unit that is joined by an independent character that does not have the same special rule."

Clearly, just as it is sporting to allow your opponent to allow Shrike and his squad to infiltrate, it would be devious and unsporting to try and construe this into Shrike's broken mechanic somehow enabling an additional attached IC to benefit. I just don't see it being an issue open to interpretation.

[Tynskel]

How can you have an Inquisitor Lord AND 2 Lord Commisars in the first place??? That would mean 3 HQs...

As for Shrike, clearly the intent of his special rule is to permit a squad joined with him to infiltrate. Technically it does not work, but that is clearly the intent. However, the rules are quite clear that this would not extend to any independent character that cannot on its own infiltrate.

P.48 - "For example, if an independent character without the infiltrate special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate."

P.75 - "...These rules are lost by a unit that is joined by an independent character that does not have the same special rule."

Clearly, just as it is sporting to allow your opponent to allow Shrike and his squad to infiltrate, it would be devious and unsporting to try and construe this into Shrike's broken mechanic somehow enabling an additional attached IC to benefit. I just don't see it being an issue open to interpretation.

The rules that you quoted on p.48 and 75 are for units with inherent special rules.
In fact, you are quoting p.48 and p.75 out of context. "Unless SPECIFIED in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit." Shrike's rule, due to p.48 overrides p. 75, because Shrike's rule states his special rule is conferred.

The unit that Shrike attaches to does not inherently have infiltrate (well, I guess it could...), he is giving the unit infiltrate. Also, you could attach Shrike to an Independent Character Unit (p.48).

The only time a IC is separate from a unit is for attacking in close combat (p.49). So far, I have yet to see a special rule that an IC puts onto another unit does not go onto other attached characters. The rule states that he applies the rule to himself and the unit. An attached IC is apart of the unit (p.48).

Attaching Shrike to a unit and attaching other characters at the same time does not break the game. Now there is a 600+ point squad. It isn't to hard to figure out what to do about that--- you shooooooot it.