Looking for Advice on a Fluff List

[Nabterayl]

This is a question about space marine captains. But to understand the question I need to explain a bit:

I've recently come into a somewhat odd problem. My uncle is getting into 40K, and has decided to play eldar. But he doesn't want to just play eldar - he's decided that we should keep a marine army and a tyranid army around in case we get bored of our primary armies, or as a way to invite other people to play. My uncle has not played a single game of 40K, but he's gone and bought an eldar, marine, and tyranid battleforce despite my recommendations to, you know, get one playable army at a time.

Given my uncle's inexperience and the fact that the marine and tyranid sets are going to be stored at my house, it's more or less up to me to decide how we get these into playable forces. Since both the marine and tyranid boxes are secondary, I'm looking at starting small, and just getting each of them into usable 500 point lists (after all, we have to get my uncle's eldar force up to speed!).

I come from a wargaming background, and it's the fluff aspect of 40K that got me into the game, so I prefer to build a force that interests me and play that as well as I can. Given that, I'm tempted to take this marine force and turn it into a battle company I've had bouncing around my head for a while, which makes my two obvious HQ choices a captain and a chaplain (since all the other codex HQ choices are extra-company).

Thing is, I look at space marine captains, and I'm not really sure what they're good for anymore. Which finally brings me to my questions:

Given that I want a captain in the collection at some point for fluff reasons, what are people's thoughts on what role the captain serves in the current codex?
For a 500 point list, what are people's thoughts on taking a chaplain vs. a captain for the obligatory HQ?

[mysterex]

Points sink?:D
Chaplain - definitely in a low points army


Seriously, I've got around 2500 points of space marines and don't have a captain, just a chaplain and a librarian, one of which gets no upgrades and the other gets 5 - 10 points worth to differentiate them when comes to awarding bonus points for determining if my most expensive HQ was killed at events.

The only thing I like about the captains is the way special characters allow different army builds, but since special characters are frowned upon in our local area I don't own any.

[Lord Azaghul]

Captain: yeah, he's kind of unimpressive for 100pts.
Chaplans are automaticly fluffy, IE I think that the rules they have fit the fluff very well.

A think the chaplan is the easier 'fluff justiciation', he's leading a small band of SM on some sort of religion expedition, or he's there to extol them in dark moments.

The captain is sort of just a captain: "horray I'm you're leader! Most bold of warriors am I" But his rules curtainly don't 'feel' that way. Most of the time he's just a 100pts bolt pistol.

[fuzzbuket]

chappy whos leading a strike force to find lost scrolls or something and he's good at fighting:D (and they look quite gangsta:P)

[robertsjf]

Folks, the OP isn't trying to milk max effectiveness for points. With that in mind:


1) These dudes lead from the front. They also give you access to Combat Tactics, a much maligned but sometimes useful trait.
2) That being said, at 500 points I'd go Chappy because Chappy is cheaper given his standard kit, rosarius and crozius arcanum and all. Combat Tactics becomes more useful when you have more opportunities to actually apply it, and you won't have many opportunities in a small game...

[Gotthammer]

robert - all marines automatically have Combat Tactics so you don't need a Captain to use it. Captains add literally nothing to the army as a whole in the same way a character such as Shrike (fleet) or Sicarius (Rites of Battle) do.


For Nab's Q's

1: From a fluff/modeling perspective they provide a great focal point for display and a chance to really go all out without any restrictions like psychic hoods or skull helmets. They can be totally blinged out and be really eye catching at the head of massed ranks of rank and file marines (who are often pretty generic).

Game wise the loss of Rites of Battle really hurt Captain's in the usefulness department. I used to always take one for army wide LD10 but now, unfortunately, my much loved Captain will be sitting games out as she doesn't do much in game. The Cap is good in a fist fight, but still insta dies to S8 and marines aren't super HtH guys anyway, so the Cap is a strange fit in the codex.
They have good initiative, attacks and WS. But marines are more shooty than not, and unless you shell out more points for a Jump pack and Power Weapon the pros go to waste. The Cap also has good BS, but can't get any really devestating guns to benefit from it.

Going into question 2):

The Chaplain comes, by default, with a power weapon and improves the HtH skills of the unit he's with. Instantly better than the Captain. Also with a jump pack Assault Marines become very good on the charge against most things. Using the Blood Angel codex makes the Chaplain even better as his HQ version has an improved statline, the Chaplains only downside compared to the Captain.
But in 500 points, go the Chaplain.

[Tynskel]

The nice thing for Blood Angels is that their captains have access to a wide variety of guns and wargear, so you can make thing a close quarters shooting and brawling character.
However, the Reclusiarch has access to the guns too- but is 30 points more.
If you have the points to spare, a reclusiarch is the way to go for a leader that is not a special character.

But if you want a solid leader that's relatively inexpensive- Captains are great. (both space marines and blood angels)

As for fluff: Captains are supposed to be everywhere. They are, however, fighting where the fighting is the thickest-- so a 500 point force is essentially a tactical squad, a scout squad, and one support item. The Senior tactical Sgt. would be in charge of the show. At that point, the points really only let you take the basic leader: Librarian or Chaplain. Which makes sense, for a small force that could be a on a specialty mission, the librarian or chaplain could be aiding the Sgt (or sent to accomplish a specific goal).

Example: Callistar from Space Hulk. Sgt Lorenzo was in charge of mission operations, but the Librarian Callistar was attached for special mission reasons. It was Lorenzo's job to make sure that Callistar was able to fulfill his mission-Lorenzo organized the terminators and directed combat operations.

[eagleboy7259]

What good is a Space Marine Captain? Oh just an excuse to field a S6 relic blade that strikes at I5. I don't think a Chappy is really that useful with just the battleforce, I4 and a power weapon is a little underwhelming on its own. Sure if you have TH & SS terminators it would be a great buy, unless you're spamming vulkan then its basically redundant, but if you'er using assault marines just paint them red and use the BA codex and even then don't take a chappy, take a priest.

[Nabterayl]

Thanks for all the responses guys. I'm highly amused at having a thread some people said could not be had (i.e., how to make a fluff-list better).

So let me ask a follow-up question: given that there must be a captain in this collection eventually, do people think it makes sense to just spring for one of the special characters? Sicarius (or whoever he ends up being named) has always caught my eye, in part because he's the most like the old captains. To put it another way, do people feel like I'd be better served taking a relatively minimalist captain (essentially just writing off those points and cutting my budget losses), or is it potentially worth it to take one of the special captains?

I appreciate people offering their thoughts - of the nine or so guys I play with regularly, the only regular marine player is a Space Wolf player, so I've seen surprisingly little of the marine codex on the table.

[Tynskel]

hmmm...

Fluff and special characters-- if you are aiming to have your force to have a theme, and the fluff of the special character fulfills that theme, you should take one. Sicarius fills the classic Battle Company feel, as opposed to Shrike which uses subterfuge.

Personally, I like your good ole customizable captain- you can have him fill the role that you think that the captain of your chapter would fulfill.

[Gotthammer]

It depends what you want out of them - if it is just 'I need a Captain to fill out my Company, most of the time they'll just be on display', then make a cool model and if they fit a Special they fit.

If you want to game with them Sicarius is a good choice - he's fairly generically equipped (sword, plasma pistol), good for your army (Ld10, special skills for one unit) and a beast in HtH. I used him in a tourney and he destroyed just about everything he came across. One time he took on Belial, three Deathwing Termies and a couple of Tac Squad guys, and killed them all in short order.
The Ld10 buff is very useful in HtH, and for making Combat Tactics rolls. The Battle Forged Heroes is nice, but nothing too spectacular (and I usually end up forgetting about it).

The advantage of building a model with a Power Sword and Plasma pistol is you can run them as Sicarius for 200pts, or as a stripped down Captain for 130. Model the pistol in a holster and you can drop him down to 115 minimum for the base + power sword. And if your opponents are understanding that sword could later be a relic blade to boot.

[Tynskel]

That's a good idea.

[eagleboy7259]

Thanks for all the responses guys. I'm highly amused at having a thread some people said could not be had (i.e., how to make a fluff-list better).

So let me ask a follow-up question: given that there must be a captain in this collection eventually, do people think it makes sense to just spring for one of the special characters? Sicarius (or whoever he ends up being named) has always caught my eye, in part because he's the most like the old captains. To put it another way, do people feel like I'd be better served taking a relatively minimalist captain (essentially just writing off those points and cutting my budget losses), or is it potentially worth it to take one of the special captains?

I appreciate people offering their thoughts - of the nine or so guys I play with regularly, the only regular marine player is a Space Wolf player, so I've seen surprisingly little of the marine codex on the table.

**cough** VULKAN SPAM **cough** Most of the special characters are actually pretty tame on their own, Calgar is overpriced for what he does, Tigurus has no way of getting an inv. save, a regular space marine captain is better than Khan for biker armies, etc.... Sicarius is a very solid choice IMOP, letting you build out an army without really having to make it special for him. Pedro and Lysander are the same way but other than that you're building out to spam a certain characters chapter traits.

[robertsjf]

robert - all marines automatically have Combat Tactics so you don't need a Captain to use it. Captains add literally nothing to the army as a whole in the same way a character such as Shrike (fleet) or Sicarius (Rites of Battle) do.

Misread the entry, sorry. But I play Orks, what do I know?

[Paradox]

Here's a question for you.

I know you stated this is for a themed force, but the usage of your captain at 500 pts probably begs this question.

Do you want your chosen HQ to run with a unit, or more likely run about independently? Is he the superior section leader or thealoof commander giving orders but kicking arse by himself to watch over his brothers?

I currently play lots of 500 point games (having played 1500 - 2000 games in the past) and I tend to choose the Captain over librarians or chaplains. I find that for a single upgrade, you have a captain with superior stats to a chaplain, that is more survivable than a librarian. But this is because I use him as a 'firefighter' and jump on things standard marines at 500 points couldn't handle. (enter stage right, bloodletters)

Only in my experience (other WILL vary :P )

[Nabterayl]

Here's a question for you.

I know you stated this is for a themed force, but the usage of your captain at 500 pts probably begs this question.

Do you want your chosen HQ to run with a unit, or more likely run about independently? Is he the superior section leader or thealoof commander giving orders but kicking arse by himself to watch over his brothers?

I currently play lots of 500 point games (having played 1500 - 2000 games in the past) and I tend to choose the Captain over librarians or chaplains. I find that for a single upgrade, you have a captain with superior stats to a chaplain, that is more survivable than a librarian. But this is because I use him as a 'firefighter' and jump on things standard marines at 500 points couldn't handle. (enter stage right, bloodletters)

Only in my experience (other WILL vary :P )
Part of my difficulty is that until recently this was a company that only existed in my mind, so I built the fluff for the "full sized" version, as it were. What particularly interested me was the challenge of fielding a tank-based space marine force that riffed on how hilariously understaffed codex marine chapters are. So I came up with fluff for the fourth company of the Violet Avatars, a young chapter that follows the codex even more closely than the Ultramarines (none of these sissy naval or armor specialists for the Avatars, no sir! ;)) - but the fourth company in particular is deviant in that it a) claims ten Predators/Whirlwinds/Vindicators as its own, which are crewed by the company's devastators, b) uses senior scouts as Rhino/Razorback drivers, as opposed to battle-brothers from another company, and c) assigns two Razorbacks to each tactical squad (vehicles the company came into possession of/stole at the same time as it adopted the devastator deviation, a story which need not be related here). Aside from those intentional deviations, 4th co. Violet Avatars is obnoxiously codex, which means a full company combat drop might consist of:
First tactical squad in two Razorbacks, transported in a Thunderhawk transporter (crewed by 4th tactical squad).
Second tactical squad in two Razorbacks, transported in a Thunderhawk transporter (crewed by 4th tactical squad).
Third tactical squad in two Razorbacks, transported in a Thunderhawk transporter (crewed by 4th tactical squad).
First devastator squad in three of some combination of Predator, Whirlwind, and Vindicator, transported in two Thunderhawk transporters (crewed by the remainder of 1st devastator squad).
The captain and command squad, in a Razorback, transported in one of the Thunderhawk transporters transporting the devastator vehicles.
First assault squad on bikes, transported in a Thunderhawk gunship (crewed by 5th tactical squad).
Second assault squad in five Land Speeders, transported in two Thunderhawk gunships (crewed by 6th tactical squad).
The company chaplain on a bike, transported in one of the Thunderhawk gunships transporting only two Land Speeders.
Supernumerary techmarine and servitors, transported in the Thunderhawk gunship containing the company chaplain.
Two dreadnoughts, transported in a Thunderhawk gunship (crewed by 5th tactical squad).
That's a total of 91 able-bodied marines (only 63 of which are actually on the ground) and two dreadnoughts plus a techmarine, and takes up three HS slots, three FA slots, six Troops slots, three Elites slots, and two HQ slots, so it's the full FoC. Four men from the 4th tactical squad, two men from the 5th and 6th tactical squads, and the entire second devastator squad, would remain behind to serve as naval officers. Fluff-wise the company might shuffle the assignments around to drop with an additional tac squad or more devastator support, but you get the idea. I'm playing with the fact that a single company in a strictly codex chapter (10 squads of 10 battle-brothers, plus a captain, plus a 5-man command squad, plus a chaplain) can literally never deploy to a planet at the same time (because somebody has to crew the Thunderhawks and the starships), while trying to use the FoC in a strictly codex way, and not deploy anything that isn't a vehicle of some sort (hence the assault squads use bikes and Land Speeders).

All of which is great, but doesn't tell me how to break down the above table of organization into a 500 point list :p I didn't necessarily expect to be building this force out of a battleforce - I didn't necessarily expect to be building it at all.

[Strangleweb]

The main thing with Vanilla Captains is that you have great customisation opportunities. As a 'fluff' player, I like the narrative of captains leading their men. Also, in small games, that extra wound and attack often makes a big difference. To fit in with your fluff is difficult as you can't take double razorbacks. Also, I am assuming you are ignoring the Force Organisation Chart, so I'd go for this:

Captain with Power Weapon [115pts]
Tactical Squad (10 Marines), Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Razorback (2xHBolters) [215pts]
Bike Squad (5 Marines), Meltagun, Flamer, Power Sword on Sergeant [170pts]

[DarkLink]

But this is because I use him as a 'firefighter' and jump on things standard marines at 500 points couldn't handle. (enter stage right, bloodletters)


Ummm, you're using a close combat unit to try and take out bloodletters? Bloodletters who are one of the nastier anti MEQ CC units in the game? Who can be shot to death by a handful of bolter shot. Bolters which your tactical Marines have plenty of?

[Splug]

As a few people have mentioned, stock captains having access to relic blades can make for a fairly fierce close-combat specialist. If you break a tactical squad and throw the sergeant and special weapon in a razorback with the captain, you should have a nice, mobile close-combat force capable of shredding through other marines. Where the chaplain will be more useful for the squad as a team player, the captain's single-handed destruction makes him a fine choice for a small-force wrecking ball. 130 points will get you the stripped-down relic blade, later it's worth investing another 15 for artifacer armor. Additionally, you can use the captain from the AoBR box - which is an excellent value for the number of models it includes (hurry before the price hike at the end of the month!). At the higher point levels, pulling out a command squad will increase the squad's close combat ability quite a bit - but for 500 points just the sergeant and captain alone will cause some significant havoc (with three ablative wounds and a tankpopping buddy).

Chaplains are a good buy for low-point games as well, though you may want to consider giving them a jump pack and running them with an assault squad. Bikers only have one attack each base (no additional CCW), which limits the benefits they reap from having those rerolls - relentless boltguns are nice, so you actually may charge in to finish a squad off, but if it takes more than one assault phase your damage capacity is going to sink very, very quickly - 5 swings with no reroll from the squad, assuming no one has died yet.

EDIT: The other possibility is throwing the captain on the bike, which will allow you to make the bike squads scoring units. The command squad could be bikers too then, which makes getting charges much more flexible (can't charge out of the razorback if it moved, but the bikes can go 12", rapid fire, and THEN still charge) and T5 3+ save FNP with turbo boost cover saves and a captain for a wound sink is hard as hell to kill by small arms fire / light assault units. Since that's kind of what command squads are really good at killing - tactical squads, gaunts, etc - being very resilient to their damage as well is a great perk. Plan C is to put the chaplain with the command squad on bikes, and the captain on foot in a razorback with a tactical combat squad. That would make for two very strong anti-light-to-mid infantry squads, and play to the advantages of each HQ: the captain goes with a squad where he's going to be the main event, and the chaplain supports a squad with more attacks.

[Kirsten]

If you are fielding vanilla marines, a captain is a good choice, loads of fancy options, artificer armour, relic blade, grenade launcher, hellfire rounds, the customisation is significant and is brilliant for modelling opportunities. The amount of plastic bits available to construct marines with means making a plastic captain is a whole lot of fun and worth it just for that. For myself I play blood angels and the captain is dreadfully dull, no fun toys, no fun rules, special characters far better value, so I don't take one.