Proxy tolerance discussion.

[Mr Mystery]

How do?

So some may recall from old threads I've long harboured a plan to field a CSM force comprised of Heresy era armoured Alpha Legion - a force with no outward signs of corruption.

No spikes. No eight pointed stars. Nothing. Just plain, straight up MkIV (because Calth, screw you!) Alpha Legion.

To briefly recap the background concept, they represent efforts to destabilise regions. Show up, accuse the Planertary or System rules of being corrupted Heretics, ferment and lead rebellion, before pulling out when things properly hot up.

Rather than go for an Unbound hotch-potch proxy nightmare, I'm looking to stick to the CSM book......just not the models.

The core stuff is easy. MkIV Astartes are CSM, regadless of armament. Basic Guardsmen models will be my Cultists - there's no functional difference between autoguns and las guns in-game. Terminators are likewise nice and straight forward.

But then things get a bit trickier.

I like the rules for both Mutilators and Obliterators, but the models are far too overt for my concept. Closest in bulk, and design are of course the Centurions. But I fear this is where the proxying might get a bit much for some.

So I'm looking for a litmus test from the good folk of BoLS as to where the 'counts as' goes beyond the pale, as well any ideas I can shamelessly pinch to represent Daemon Engines (except Blight Drones, which have an ideal FW Proxy on the way!)

Oh, and have finally decided to crack on thanks to Calth making the bulk of my force affordable (yes, I could've used MKVII plastics, but man.....all those Aquilas would have to come off!). That any I now own an airbrush so can copy FW's gorgeous paint scheme.

[Denzark]

I have always thought the mutes/oblits to be closer to terminators personally. The problem you will have is Mk IV is quite clean lines and elegant - not as brutal as some. If you juxtapose that with any 'fleshy mutations' a la the actual oblits, the force will look quite disparate.

I'd say consider Admech big boy robots mebbe for Oblits. On the other hand, I have just bought some retro original RT dreadnoughts to turn into centurions so mebbe that is an option?

For Heldrakes scratchbuild from straight line mechanical parts such as drop pod door frames.

For Daemon walkers I'd again look at Admech. If you simply changed the turret on a defiler away from something with a head to something with a turret like a LR that might suffice.

Or - the nice clean Alpha legion Mk IVs are your initial PoS in a system, and you realise too late that the bog standard unconverted daemon stuff is the reality as it comes in second wave.

[Cutter]

Denzark seems to have hit the nail on the head, Ad Mech is probably the way to go, Kataphron Battle Servitors for obliterators would be my choice.

[Psychosplodge]

If you use centurions as proxies its to your disadvantage LOS and size wise so I wouldn't expect an opponent to object?

[Mr Mystery]

I think it's more the potential for genuine visual confusion.

[Psychosplodge]

As long as you're consistent in what you use and thoroughly explain each proxy I'd expect most reasonable opponents to be ok with it?

[Path Walker]

You could just not have them? That would be my answer, you don't need to represent every unit and, I think its fitting that an Alpha Legion cell wouldn't have Obliteraters, given that they're obviously corrupted. I find restricting models is often a good way of making a cohesive and fluffy army. Would the Alpha Legion has need of something as big, noisy and obvious as a Daemon Engine?

I guess this is now a problem with how the game is moving on, when there are going to be more and more big models and armies without them won't have much fun playing the armies that do.

[Psychosplodge]

There's that as well.
I would love to see a wall of Khorne berserkers charging across the board with nothing else in play. Doubt it'd do much to a knight though right?

[CoffeeGrunt]

If one of them got lucky with the Power Fist, but yeah, no chance really. :/

[Mud Duck]

There are some Centurion/Oblits of the Shanishii variety that look very good (on Dakka I think), so to be honest I don't really see a problem. Can I, as your opponent know and can visually tell what the unit is? That's the biggest concern that I'd have.

[son_of_volmer]

Why not a techmarine guy for Obliterators? Four arms, different weapon on each. The arms bring the weapon for the marine to hold when he wants to fire it.

A Contemptor could be converted to something like a Maulerfiend.

[Psychosplodge]

I like that idea.

Fill the armour so it's level with all the trim and looks heavier/bulkier, would totally work.

[Mr Mystery]

Thing is....that's rapidly getting beyond my ability to actually do.

Painting I'm confident with now - airbrush conquers all (expect some kind of demo experiment models fairly soon. Next few weeks anyways)

But greenstuff a model's panels flat? Somewhat beyond my comfort and competence zone. For now.

You know, I might get those bulky Mechanicus guys to be the Obliterators?

[Psychosplodge]

That's about all I'd feel comfortable doing with green stuff, you have a rim to work to :D

[Mr Mystery]

You could just not have them? That would be my answer, you don't need to represent every unit and, I think its fitting that an Alpha Legion cell wouldn't have Obliteraters, given that they're obviously corrupted. I find restricting models is often a good way of making a cohesive and fluffy army. Would the Alpha Legion has need of something as big, noisy and obvious as a Daemon Engine?


Depends what they're preparing the way for. I mean, a Chaos Cult can't exactly kick off with 'YEAH! SACRIFICE YOUR KIDS TO ME!' after all. It's subtler and more insidious than that. Begins with populist nonsense (consider UKIP during the referendum) and builds towards stuff.

And I frankly love the idea of proper stealthy Alpha Legionnaires arriving planetside as individuals, and beginning to ferment Cult activity....then, after a period of time, turn up at Company Strength (more than enough to knack a planet, according to the background), and expose, root out and destroy the very Cults they started....before, well well well....IT WAS THE RULING CLASS ALL ALONG! GET THEM! Then once things are thoroughly destabilised, and you've given the rebellious side just enough dodgy prayers to start them down the eight fold path themselves, but before the Imperium comes to properly deal with stuff.....everyone back on ship, our work here is done. See ya later, losers.

A mechanism to bleed the Imperium dry, without ever truly risking your own strength.

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That's about all I'd feel comfortable doing with green stuff, you have a rim to work to :D

It sounds easy in theory, but I'd want it to be super, super smooth and flawless.

You know, I think I'm gonna have to go write up the army first, see where whimsy takes me.

MkIV bikers? I think so....because I love love love those models.

Blimey, I'm being extra extra emphatic today!

[Morgrim]

It sounds easy in theory, but I'd want it to be super, super smooth and flawless.

You know, I think I'm gonna have to go write up the army first, see where whimsy takes me.

MkIV bikers? I think so....because I love love love those models.

Blimey, I'm being extra extra emphatic today!

Milliput Superfine. You can use water to smooth it, and then after you can sand it. And if you mess up you put on another thin layer and sand that. It's much more forgiving than greenstuff for those sort of mechanical flat surfaces.

[Mr Mystery]

Interesting. I shall have a word with Artificer Fatboy, my chief bloke in being good at artsy stuff.