Bloodangels dedicated transports

[Crae]

Lo folks....
I have been reading over the BA codex and I was amazed to discover all the nice stuff they managed to cram into it. I was comparing it to the SM codex and I was amazed to to see that not only do they have nicer stuff, faster vehicles, but they are also able to get Landraiders that can deepstrike on top of that. I thought, okayyy!?....

I then noticed that they changed the dedicated transport option, and it seems they are able to buy landraiders for tactical and devastator squads too (well any one, more or less, it seems).

This is my question really....have I understood that correctly ? You can get Deepstiking landraiders for tactical squads ?

-Crae-

[sebi81]

to make it short... yes

[Crae]

to make it short... yes

Wouldn't "yes" be the short answer? :P

and thank you for a fast answer.....and now I wonder why I should stick to the regular codex at all....why the heck did they make a codex with no drawbacks what so ever ?...I am starting to think Melissa is right about the marine wank after all....

[Melissia]

Yes, deep strike your 250 point land raider next to my formation of mechanized Battle Sister Squads, each of which by the way has meltaguns.

Do it.

I dare you.

[BuFFo]

Wouldn't "yes" be the short answer? :P

and thank you for a fast answer.....and now I wonder why I should stick to the regular codex at all....why the heck did they make a codex with no drawbacks what so ever ?...I am starting to think Melissa is right about the marine wank after all....

Because in a 1500 point game, you can take your three deepstriking Landraiders if you wish. When they Deep Strike, they just sit there, and get melta'd. There goes your entire army.

Remember, point cost is a drawback for Marines because they can field so so little models.

There is no Marine wank. Some people are just deluding themselves.

[Sir Biscuit]

There are plenty of drawbacks to BA in comparison to regular marines, that make them, in fact, balanced. Most noticeably the price hikes all over the codex, while fair for what you get, mean that you HAVE to field a smaller, more "elite" army than standard marines. But this isn't the place for that kind of analysis.

Another thing to keep in mind with the raiders is that they are VERY large models- in fact they have one of the largest footprints in the game. That makes deep striking a bit of a problem- you can either try to do it in a large open area (which means away from the enemy) or you can put it right close and hope that 2/3 scatter doesn't screw you.

Actually, if you look around you'll see surprisingly few raiders in most BA armies, and most of the "pro" (and I use the term loosely) lists don't include them at all. It's because they are slow compared to the rest of the army- when you have the rest of your army hitting the enemy line turn 2, it really hurts to have one of your very expensive (with termies 1/4 of your points) units lag behind by a turn.

[Image]

There are plenty of drawbacks to BA in comparison to regular marines, that make them, in fact, balanced. Most noticeably the price hikes all over the codex, while fair for what you get, mean that you HAVE to field a smaller, more "elite" army than standard marines. But this isn't the place for that kind of analysis.


I don't think this is entirely true. Most options have maintained a similar point cost when not factoring in transports. In fact, some squads are even cheaper. Vanguard have a lower base cost and Devastators get their weapons at a significantly reduced cost.

Granted, the price hike occurs with rhino-chasis vehicles, and of course some HQ choices, but point costs otherwise remain constant, if not cheaper than vanilla marines.

*I know you said it's not the appropriate place for analysis, but in discussing point costs and the balance between two armies, I think it's worth noting the difference in perception.

[Lord Azaghul]

I don't think this is entirely true. Most options have maintained a similar point cost when not factoring in transports. In fact, some squads are even cheaper. Vanguard have a lower base cost and Devastators get their weapons at a significantly reduced cost.

Granted, the price hike occurs with rhino-chasis vehicles, and of course some HQ choices, but point costs otherwise remain constant, if not cheaper than vanilla marines.

*I know you said it's not the appropriate place for analysis, but in discussing point costs and the balance between two armies, I think it's worth noting the difference in perception.

Yes, but both of those choices ARE overprice in the Marines Codex. The BA 'dex sounds like those are more appropratly graded.

[Crae]

Yes, deep strike your 250 point land raider next to my formation of mechanized Battle Sister Squads, each of which by the way has meltaguns.

Do it.

I dare you.

He he...BURN, heretic BURN!!!!

two points on that.....

Bikes with dual melta and multimelta to get your sweet peas out. Then a redeemer flamer to make them hotter then usual ;)

No honestly, I was more thinking of a distraction like 240 points of redeemer or standard LR and a 90 point bolter squad to run on a objective to hold it. Either you move something to go take it (6-12 inch isn't that long) and I take something else or I get it and and you try something else. On top of that, the meta game is 2500 points in my area, so some of the more expensive stuff gets used more often then not, around here.

Regular LR snipping you vehicles from the back corner? distraction ?

and it is not that much worse then 210 points of terminators with a 250pts (more like 265) LR driving up the middle ?

I was actually just pissed off about them having all the regular space marine stuff, but just better and with an even better dispersion of units in the FOC. I love dreadnoughts in drop pods, having them in the heavy slot would free up an elite slot for something else. I was actually just going...bugger, why should I play regular marines when I can get the same stuff cheaper or better if I used the BA codex. I don't use special characters and I play regular marines (tried SW, but to much hero hammer) and if I use my current army with the BA codex I actually more or less end up at around the same points, but I get more tactical flexibility. Running in Rhinos 18" for a last minute take and hold would be superb. And honestly....cheaper Devastators, what is there not to love about it. I played since second edition and I still like the 6-2-2 marines and mind you it is possible to field in a 2500 points battle if you place your points right.

ohhh...and come onnnnn......BAALS!!!!......if you are not a bit envious of those..*sigh*......my inner ork went DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!!!!!! and WHOOOOOZZZZZHHH!!! Red ones go fasta......


(and I know you know that feeling to as a fellow ork player Mel.)

I am just wondering what happened to the tormented dying blood angels of old ?.....and a significant larger number seems to fall to the black rage now then in the old days. and WHY oh WHY couldn't they just make one book to rule them all instead of the craptastic stuff they let out now.


ahhh well I see my battle wagon of ultimate dakka doom and the 15 dakka lootas is ready to be assembled over on my other desk....at least my orks know "Da proba way of doing things" with all the BA's popping up it will be like shooting clay pigeons with a minigun.

[ashnaile]

a reason to play regular marines over ba? one word;

Vulkan ;)

[Paul]

a reason to play regular marines over ba? one word;

Vulkan ;)

So does every other chapter except Salamanders suck compared to BA?

[Tynskel]

YES

actually, no. But I had to do it!

The Blood Angels vs Marines- one isn't better than the other, they just have different drawbacks.

Example:
Land Raider in marine dex has to roll across the board, the BA deep strikes.

Marine LR gets shot at every turn. BA land Raider could mishap--- VERY large model, and could easily end up with a loss of both the unit inside and the LR.

[CrimsonFist1149]

Wouldn't "yes" be the short answer? :P

and thank you for a fast answer.....and now I wonder why I should stick to the regular codex at all....why the heck did they make a codex with no drawbacks what so ever ?...I am starting to think Melissa is right about the marine wank after all....

uh yeah there are drawbacks. first of all death company are almost not worth taking considering theyre ridiculously high points cost and the fact that they have rage. the deepstriking land raiders can disappear if they land on top of a freaking gaunt or guardsman and THREE special characters are not independent characters (mephiston,sanguinor and death company tycho) which means you have no way to allocate wounds making them really easy to gun down before they can even do anything. im not saying the codex is bad but it does have drawbacks.

[DarkLink]

Right, the various Marine Codices have varying strengths and weaknesses. BA and SW have some crazy units and stuff, but they also lack certain options. Whereas vanilla Marines lack some of the crazy stuff, but have a wider selection of solid choices making them more flexible in general.

Are they perfectly balanced? Probably not, but there's a reason to take any one of them. Except DA. They should have just put the DA out of their misery, and make vanilla Captains in Terminator armor make Terminators troops*. Actually, make Chapter Masters in TDA do that. That'd create a good reason to actually take a Chapter Master over a Captain.

*And, of course, include a few DA special characters in the codex.

[synack]

Yeah and shrike with his jump pack, fleet, infiltrate squad that will probably get first turn assault on anything.

[Crae]

Wow...what a lively post this ended up being, compared to how simple the question was :)

As I mentioned earlier in the post, I play regular 6-2-2 SM and in doing so I can get the same stuff I had in the normal codex, for about the same price or a bit more expensive in the BA codex. Since I don't like special characters (or being dependant on a Vulkan list to win + point sink) I really don't care about them. I can get a honour/command squad that projects FNP instead of only working on the squad itself. 3 wound chaplain and closecombat dreads that are making me giggle. The assault squads are scoring and have access to meltaguns (meltagun/flamer combo is awesome). Vanguards are 10 points cheaper (not that I have used them yet...but still). The regular predator is suddenly a mobile fire base. Devastators get cheaper weapons. vindicators (albeit at a hefty price increase) and whirlwinds are suddenly fast and very very dangerous.

A regular marine army (not containing special characters) will, at a really small price increase, get a lot better and I am not even talking about the new units or the lovely FNP projecting apothecaries that would make my regular marines a pain to remove with normal shooting.

So again...if not for the special chars and the not used master of the forge, LS storm, bike captain or thunder cannon. I have yet to see any one recommend the use of them? any one? The only exception being the bike captain in a all bike army.

They are useless options and of cause there are a cpl of bling squads in the BA codex to, but what hurts me is the regular stuff being better, for less. In the few cases where it is more expensive it is hugely more effective too. If you are the sort of player that goes for bling units alone, then yes...it becomes a small and elitist army, but going for the standard SM army, I suddenly end up with a improved army.

The FOC layout for the BA gives me potentially 2-4 more scoring units in my assault squads on top of that. Not to mention the possibility to go for cheap fast razor backs with 5 man assault squads.

ohh well....this is not actually the place to discus it and on top of that it doesn't matter since it is not going to change :)

BTW...I agree on the Darkangels comment...they should have been included in the regular codex...and so should the blood angels in my opinion. The captains should just have had an option for terminator armour and Jump packs, that did the same for the respective squads, like it did for the bike squad. The dream of one codex to rule them all continues....

[ashnaile]

I'm sorry, but don't say the vannilla codex is useless, just because you have some retarded objection to using the special characters the entire codex was written around.

If you dont use special chars in a vanilla codex youre gimping yourself and its not anyones problem but your own.

Blood angels arent even that powerful of an army tbqh, they have strong options, but everything they have can be deconstructed by a vanilla sm list thats made well.

[Paul]

blood angels arent even that powerful of an army tbqh, they have strong options, but everything they have can be deconstructed by a vanilla sm list that is one of a very few specific and powerful builds which are repetitive and boring.

ftfy

[addamsfamily36]

Wow...what a lively post this ended up being, compared to how simple the question was

As I mentioned earlier in the post, I play regular 6-2-2 SM and in doing so I can get the same stuff I had in the normal codex, for about the same price or a bit more expensive in the BA codex. Since I don't like special characters (or being dependant on a Vulkan list to win + point sink) I really don't care about them. I can get a honour/command squad that projects FNP instead of only working on the squad itself. 3 wound chaplain and closecombat dreads that are making me giggle. The assault squads are scoring and have access to meltaguns (meltagun/flamer combo is awesome). Vanguards are 10 points cheaper (not that I have used them yet...but still). The regular predator is suddenly a mobile fire base. Devastators get cheaper weapons. vindicators (albeit at a hefty price increase) and whirlwinds are suddenly fast and very very dangerous.

A regular marine army (not containing special characters) will, at a really small price increase, get a lot better and I am not even talking about the new units or the lovely FNP projecting apothecaries that would make my regular marines a pain to remove with normal shooting.

So again...if not for the special chars and the not used master of the forge, LS storm, bike captain or thunder cannon. I have yet to see any one recommend the use of them? any one? The only exception being the bike captain in a all bike army.

They are useless options and of cause there are a cpl of bling squads in the BA codex to, but what hurts me is the regular stuff being better, for less. In the few cases where it is more expensive it is hugely more effective too. If you are the sort of player that goes for bling units alone, then yes...it becomes a small and elitist army, but going for the standard SM army, I suddenly end up with a improved army.

The FOC layout for the BA gives me potentially 2-4 more scoring units in my assault squads on top of that. Not to mention the possibility to go for cheap fast razor backs with 5 man assault squads.

ohh well....this is not actually the place to discus it and on top of that it doesn't matter since it is not going to change

BTW...I agree on the Darkangels comment...they should have been included in the regular codex...and so should the blood angels in my opinion. The captains should just have had an option for terminator armour and Jump packs, that did the same for the respective squads, like it did for the bike squad. The dream of one codex to rule them all continues....


Sorry iv'e been holding back on commenting on this thread for last couple of days, but each time i read it im getting more and more irritated so its time to comment.

WARNING - THE FOLLOWING IS GOING TO BE HARSH/ANGRY, I Apologise in advance, but...yeh i got nothing its jsut gonna be what it is.

Yes Blood angels got better, and about time in my opinion. Yeh we could have included all the chapters in one massive codex book, and we would still probably see all vulkan lists everywhere so yeh that would have been fun. Blood angels had 3-4 unique units in the army. (honor guard used to be unique but not anymore). I think that justifies a seperate codex for them, let alone their background.

Baal predators, why should anyone else own them? The name says it all really.

Not really understanding the problem either, new marine codex, you can use it for any army you so wish (although playing a Vanilla list with the BA codex, is pretty boring), But yeh if i saw an ultramarines army using BA rules, i would slap my opponent *no joke*

Anyways rant over

[DarkLink]

Yeh we could have included all the chapters in one massive codex book, and we would still probably see all vulkan lists everywhere so yeh that would have been fun. Blood angels had 3-4 unique units in the army. (honor guard used to be unique but not anymore). I think that justifies a seperate codex for them, let alone their background.

Baal predators, why should anyone else own them? The name says it all really.

Actually, if they were to have put all the SMs in one codex, the best way to do it (in my opinion) would give each chapter 3-4 unique units, and their own fluff sections. Plus a couple of their own special characters, obviously.

Basically, there would be a list of Chapter tactics, one for each unique chapter. You would pick one Chapter Tactics, which would grant you access to that Chapter's unique units and characters, plus each Chapter Tactics would be different between Chapters.

So you could pick the BA Chapter tactics (the Black Rage), and also gain access to Jump Pack troops, Baal Preds, etc.

Or you could pick DA Chapter tactics (probably stubborn), and gain access to bikes/terminators as troops, and whatever unique units they'd get.

Or you could pick BT Chapter Tactics (everyone can replace their Bolter with a CCW, and they get some other special rules), and then you would gain access to the Emperor's Champion, you could take Neophytes (scouts w/ BP+CCW) in Tactical Squads (as cannon fodder), etc.

And so on, for each chapter. Done properly, I think you could fit almost every chapter in (not Grey Knights, and maybe not SWs), and you could do so without losing any uniqueness or unit choices.


But yeh if i saw an ultramarines army using BA rules, i would slap my opponent *no joke*


Dude, if you would actually slap your opponent over something as stupid as that... you've got problems. Seriously.

[ashnaile]

ftfy



What exactly is your point? Blood angels have mabye 2-5 (depending on local meta) possible competitive lists available to them.

[codiddy]

As I mentioned earlier in the post, I play regular 6-2-2 SM and in doing so I can get the same stuff I had in the normal codex, for about the same price or a bit more expensive in the BA codex.

I may be off here, (only thumbed through the BA 'dex) but in a BA list wouldn't 6-2-2 end up being 8 troops choices? or can you make BA assault squads remain fast attack?

[Paul]

What exactly is your point? Blood angels have mabye 2-5 (depending on local meta) possible competitive lists available to them.

I'm not saying Blood Angels do! I'm just saying that marines are boring. In general, including Blood Angels. The Wolves get credit for trying, as I think I've actually fought wolf armies with variety before. Try to stifle your gasps, please.

[Vaktathi]

Blood angels had 3-4 unique units in the army. (honor guard used to be unique but not anymore). I think that justifies a seperate codex for them, let alone their background. I have trouble seeing how 3-4 unique units and some background justifies an entire codex. By that standard, the Death Korps of Krieg *really* should have their whole book, as they have as much more more background than the established Cadians/Catachans and large numbers of unique units and weapon that are a lot more unique than simply slapping a different turret on a rhino platform or a couple statline changes. The new book had to invent a whole bunch of new stuff to justify a separate codex because honestly, there wasn't really any reason before except for simple FoC and weapon swaps, and I still don't think there is.

There's more variation within the IG codex alone (not even accounting for Imperial Armour) than between BA's, DA's, SM's and BT's. With that in place, it's hard to see justification for so many SM books.

[Crae]

I may be off here, (only thumbed through the BA 'dex) but in a BA list wouldn't 6-2-2 end up being 8 troops choices? or can you make BA assault squads remain fast attack?

Yep you are right. But most people don't play 2500 points so its more like 3-1-1. I use the 6-2-2 expression as a form of synonym for regular marines in a regular company.



Sorry iv'e been holding back on commenting on this thread for last couple of days, but each time i read it im getting more and more irritated so its time to comment.

WARNING - THE FOLLOWING IS GOING TO BE HARSH/ANGRY, I Apologise in advance, but...yeh i got nothing its jsut gonna be what it is.

Yes Blood angels got better, and about time in my opinion. Yeh we could have included all the chapters in one massive codex book, and we would still probably see all vulkan lists everywhere so yeh that would have been fun. Blood angels had 3-4 unique units in the army. (honor guard used to be unique but not anymore). I think that justifies a seperate codex for them, let alone their background.

Baal predators, why should anyone else own them? The name says it all really.

Not really understanding the problem either, new marine codex, you can use it for any army you so wish (although playing a Vanilla list with the BA codex, is pretty boring), But yeh if i saw an ultramarines army using BA rules, i would slap my opponent *no joke*

Anyways rant over


I'm sorry, but don't say the vannilla codex is useless, just because you have some retarded objection to using the special characters the entire codex was written around.

If you dont use special chars in a vanilla codex youre gimping yourself and its not anyones problem but your own.

Blood angels arent even that powerful of an army tbqh, they have strong options, but everything they have can be deconstructed by a vanilla sm list thats made well.



People not being able to win with a list that is standard build and doesn't include special chars are kinda sad. The regular marine list is okay on it self, I never said it wasn't. I think it is sad that they made a codex that depends on special characters instead of being unique in it self. I miss the old codex for what it was able to inspire in people. Not all competitive list have special character in them.

I never have and never will rely on one trick ponies to win something. I will play hard, I will use every resource at my disposal, to wipe you from the game board, but I won't ever stagnate to a certain build, just so I can win, since I learn as much from losing, if not more. People don't get that regular units are more likely to win you the game then a single super expensive unit. I deliberately tried not to include all the new units in my above post, because I really don't need a new lander or tank or what ever. I did several times state that it was more about them making a new codex for an army that could have been done in the regular codex if they had bothered to do it right. Decreasing pricing on several core units on top of that is just even more idiotic. People are more then welcome to play as they want and I wouldn't bash a UM player for using the BA codex the SM codex is called SM codex and not UM codex ;).

The argument about a cpl of special units justifying a codex is just bull, by that account we should have 10+ codex's for the imperial side and same for chaos. There are several codex's that need a update more then space marines of any form do and personally I am sad to see that they failed miserably on the space marine codex especially after seeing the (in my opinion) good work they did on the chaos and ork codex.




Quote: Originally Posted by ashnaile View Post
blood angels arent even that powerful of an army tbqh, they have strong options, but everything they have can be deconstructed by a vanilla sm list that is one of a very few specific and powerful builds which are repetitive and boring.

ftfy

pretty sure he is talking about the Vanilla marine builds and not the BA's :)

And they (BA) should have more then 2-5 builds :P

Lastly I will say that this has totally derailed form the original question that I got answered right away and I would like the mods t lock this thread since I think it is starting to derail into "codex X sucks compared to codex Y" or in other terms

"Dear GW,. Please nerf codex Scissor. Codex Stone is perfect. Regards Paper" :D

-Crae-

[ashnaile]

well, first of all, you seem to match what i said about having some irrational blind hatred of special chars, youre stuck in a "have to ask opponent" ed mindset.

Its not about "not being able to win without them" They add variety by themselves, and if you think more options is less variety well .... just because its not hardline WAAC tourney comp variety doesnt matter.

Also no, blood angels dont have more than 5 hardline comp lists they could make with a chance at all in ard boyz.

[Crae]

well, first of all, you seem to match what i said about having some irrational blind hatred of special chars, youre stuck in a "have to ask opponent" ed mindset.

Its not about "not being able to win without them" They add variety by themselves, and if you think more options is less variety well .... just because its not hardline WAAC tourney comp variety doesnt matter.

Also no, blood angels dont have more than 5 hardline comp lists they could make with a chance at all in ard boyz.

I don't mind special characters, I do mind using them my self, because of the price tag. I play eldar too and I regularly use eldrad and some of the phoenix lords and the same goes for using a couple of the ork special characters. I don't like them centralising a codex around Special characters, because opposite to your believe I think they limit the variety of lists. I have never voiced a anti special character view, I just think that I prefer the points used differently in MY SM list. more then 150 points for a single selection is wayyy more then I want to spend.

Honestly I think you are judging me unfairly and I can't see the need for personally attacking me with comments like that. I don't usually take stuff written on the net very personally, but I think you are a idiotic and that you haven't even read anything I have written.

Last but not least, a competitive list is not bringing the same list as every one else and you see surprise lists every year at the events and suddenly there is a new way of playing a list. I personally have a couple of units that nobody seems to like and I would never fight without them. I think people should do as they want, but I still stand for my point of view, that if you can't win without using a certain character then you are a pore player. I wonder why a lot of the articles on BoLS point at exactly that. I Especially liked the forgemaster/conversion beam list that was up a cpl of months ago (no SC), the eldar foot slogging list is another list that is interesting and I have seen several other strong builds that represent the player and their tactical choices more then just going for what every one else has. A lists competitiveness is in the eye of the beholder and the meta game of the tournament or area you play in. In general I see way to many players that think they know it all, just because they have attended a tournament. 'Ard boys is a great event for sure, but its the players that makes it a challenge, not the lists.

Call me what you want mate, but by making statements like you do, you look more the fool then I.