Super-Heavy Throwdown

[Mr Mystery]

How do?

Relatively fresh from my first Apocalypse game in a long old time, I want to chat about the best Super-Heavies out there.

Now? What is best? I'll leave that to you. But having fielded a pooload of Knights and a Reaver, for me it's about 'bang for your buck', and their overall flexibility.

For me, the undisputed title holder of 'best Super-Heavy in the game, bar none' has to go to the Ordinatus Minoris Sagittar. Now, it's not a model I currently own (well, unless you're reading this on Wednesday in which case I'll totes have ordered it!), but having borrow the Reaver, I've been looking for a centrepiece all my own.

But why the Sagittar? Dead easy....

1) It's a piffling 700 points. That's all.
2) Have you seen it's gun? 180" range, Str D, AP1, 10" Blast. With Machine Destroyer (re-rolls 1's on the D chart when knacking a vehicle).
3) 14 Hull Points....so if it does get destroyed, you can use the Strategic Resource to replace it, probably making your opponent curse your name for ever more.
4) IT'S A FRIKKING HUGE LASER ON TRACKS
5) It's also got Volkite weapons, which are always a laugh.
6) Have you seen it's shield rules? -3 Str to enemy attacks in the first turn. -2 Str to enemy attack on the second turn. -1 Str to enemy attacks in the following turns. How awesome is that? With AV14, it's more-than-likely untouchable in the first couple of turns, barring Str D (everything is always barring Str D!)
7) 6+ static Invulnerable (hey, it's better than nothing!)
8) Blessed Autosimulcara, so it's got some chance of self-repair. Which is nice.

All that for 700 points. 700. It's a bargain! Only downside is the £285 asking price - though I am kind of tempted to get two.

Yes, it's cousin the Ulator can do disgusting things to the enemy, but it's quite situational. You need a good angle for starters, and stuff really worth shooting at. It's also 300 points more....

So yes. The Ordinatus Minoris Sagittar totally gets me vote!

[CoffeeGrunt]

It says a lot that I read that list and thought, "boy that sounds incredibly unfun to play against." Maybe because I don't play Apocalypse, mind.

[Mr Mystery]

It's not indestructible, and remains massively vulnerable to assault - but that's why it'll definitely have a body guard of Skitarii Vanguard. Nobody wants to waltz through that many Radium Carbine shots!

Now...all I need do is round off my Mechanicus list, and I'll be able to field that beardy formation where all my upgrades are free :p

I'm also expecting it'll get a points increase eventually - right now, 4 of those are points cheaper than a Warlord, far harder to kill (because there's four of them!) and kick out more firepower....

Oh, and it's immune to Melta's extra D6. Trololololololol!

http://www.spikeybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/12002862_10207076818896702_4969392170023988532_n.j pg

http://www.spikeybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/11218628_10207076818656696_848478187458608214_n.jp g

[Da Gargoyle]

Reminds me of the scratch built gargant my son and I made back in the day, before GW actually made one. We used cardboard, sprues and a heavily raided bitz box. It wound up with a right hand claw, left arm super zapper and a belly gun. It all fit in with the rules GW put out in a white dwarf issue for scoring super heavies. And the most telling comment when it made its debut, Ït looks like a "Christmas Ork", (Red body, Green head and feet) leading to its name of Santa Claws.

[Da Gargoyle]

Interesting on the OM(G?) though. If it is vulnerable to assault, it becomes the focal point of the battle. For example, as Eldar I use Jet bikes to engage the guarding unit and get the fire dragons or wraithguard in close. Possibly my jet locks to assault the guard, it's just a matter of tying them up. Even in apocalypse battles I do not really have a DAR super heavy, though I do have a Wraithseer and soon a Wraith Knight, even a trio of Prisms which are currently collecting dust. It does only get one shot per turn right?

[Mr Mystery]

Yup - but it's a helluva shot.

Main thing for me is that it's very alpha strike, and most weapons capable of damaging me have to wait a couple of turns for my shield to weaken. That ought to give me time to do some serious damage.

[Denzark]

For me point for point bang for buck, it is the Typhon Siege Tank. 350 base I think, with the possibility to go 48" S10 AP1 7" blast ignores cover. +1 on thunderblitz. Always counts as stationary for firing so can thunderblitz and shoot.

With only 20 points for ceramite armour it ain't going anywhere fast - except for a bucket ton of Grav or D. Which will see anything off.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Worth noting that new FAQ clarifies that Thunderblitz forces Superheavies to snap-fire regardless of them normally ignoring effects that would normally cause them to snap-fire. It's the Facebook FAQs, so YMMV, but worth bearing that in mind when considering Thunderblitz as a tactic.

The Typhon is sturdy as heck though. Only managed to bring one down through massed Lascannon fire and some solid Bastion Breacher shots when I faced it recently. :)

[Defenestratus]

Revenant Titan.

Titan HF's. 4 Str D pie plates. 36" move. Take two and get even better defense.

I think people would be hard pressed to ignore the WK as "best bang for your buck superheavy".

[Denzark]

Worth noting that new FAQ clarifies that Thunderblitz forces Superheavies to snap-fire regardless of them normally ignoring effects that would normally cause them to snap-fire. It's the Facebook FAQs, so YMMV, but worth bearing that in mind when considering Thunderblitz as a tactic.

Didn't spot that - what a bummer. Is there any psychic powers which would allow you to Thunderblitz and then not have to snap fire so main gun can still be used?




I think people would be hard pressed to ignore the WK as "best bang for your buck superheavy".

Is it though? It is massively underpointed, has high T low armour - and is yet another GMC when it should have an AV. That said, even with D or twin D - is its damage output as good? 7" S10 AP1 Ignores cover, ordnance so re-roll to pen. That brings a lot of hurt at 48" when stationary. And more importantly laughs at re-rollable cover saves.

[Mr Mystery]

Wraithknight...I dunno. There's no disputing it's good, and as Denzark points out, somewhat undercosted.

But on a personal level (feel free to disagree and pour scorn and derision upon I), I just can't get too scared over something that can have it's last gasp stolen by a feeble Heavy Bolter.

I feel once you get to Super Heavy, the disparity between Armour and MC goes entirely. At that point, both keep on keeping on at full effect until they're destroyed. But Super Heavy vehicles typically enjoy being able to laugh heartily at all but the heaviest of weapons, of which there are typically blissfully few. Hence my fanaticism for the Ordinatus. That shield is brilliant. Tends to mean that in the first turn, your opponent can't scratch your paintwork, giving you a shooting phase or two depending on who went first, to thin out the numbers of guns that actually can hurt you somewhat.

Plus, Super Heavies are completely immune to Fleshbane weapons. GC are a tough target for them, but we all know the Dice Gods do love Sods Law....

[CoffeeGrunt]

To be fair, said Heavy Bolter would be a helluva shot given it needs 6s to Wound, and has to beat a 3+ Armour and 5+ FNP. It's not going to happen often, but it might be the lucky shot that does it.


Didn't spot that - what a bummer. Is there any psychic powers which would allow you to Thunderblitz and then not have to snap fire so main gun can still be used?

Power of the Machine Spirit would do it. Techpriests can hand it out to Guard vehicles, so I imagine Techmarines would do the same? (I don't know enough about the current Marine Codex to say it definitely does, though.)

[Mr Mystery]

It's still a better chance than a Heavy Bolter doing anything to AV12 and above - which is precisely 'no chance' :p

It may be a hangover from my 2nd Edition days, but I have a serious fear of Heavy Bolters precisely for those reasons. The number of times something well hard got gunned down by them was ridic. Ridic I say. Ridic

[CoffeeGrunt]

I never see Heavy Bolters because they're so woefully mediocre. Most of the platforms you can take them on can take better weaponry, so it seems strange to take a pea shooter. I really wish they were a bit better. :/

[Mr Mystery]

Is mostly a general 'if this can potentially kill it, how hard can it actually be?' benchmark weapon for me.

Hence I rarely use transports (also, still stuck in the 2nd Ed mindset that they're little more than mobile tombs).

The fewer weapons that can tickle your unit, the betterer it is to my mind, no matter how scary the opposition equivalent is.

[Defenestratus]

Guess I mis-read the thread - I thought it was 'best bang for the buck" kind of deal - in that case, yes, the WK is woefully subordinate to a vast array of other tools out there.

The "Best" superheavy was my friend's Imperator titan.

20 structure points (would be like 60 hullpoints now), transports 60 dudes in each leg. 7 carapace mounted turbo laser destructors... I think it laid out 28 Str D blasts of varying size per turn. 15 void shields (as if those made a difference)

Still managed to blow it up all but one time I played against it.

[Mr Mystery]

All those rules needed was the Epic Realistic thing of 'clear out garrison, plant melta charges in it's legs then run away giggling maniacally'.

This is a sort-of 'best bang for your buck' type thread, but taking into account as much as possible - so points costs, relative survivability, how quickly it might run out of 'worth it' targets etc.

[Morgrim]

Alas, I cannot directly contribute, as my Dark Eldar lack super heavies or gargantuan creatures or even a blasted lord of war.

However! We do have a formation that lets us take titan-killing ravagers that completely ignore void shields! Ignoring how hard it is to kill most titans even sans void shields, I have found that that is a wonderful psychological weapon against most players, especially imperial players, who tend to freak out delightfully. Ever seen videos of birds like australian magpies swooping people while they shriek and flail and try to scare the bird away? I did that to a warhound once, who was running away from the flimsy kites made of tissue paper that can be exploded by ordinary bolter fire.

[Defenestratus]

All those rules needed was the Epic Realistic thing of 'clear out garrison, plant melta charges in it's legs then run away giggling maniacally'.

This is a sort-of 'best bang for your buck' type thread, but taking into account as much as possible - so points costs, relative survivability, how quickly it might run out of 'worth it' targets etc.

Yeah that was never going to happen. Those legs were usually full of 60 berserkers in one leg and 60 plague marines in the other.

Dropping its void shields with massed scatter lasers and shuriken cannons then pounding it with Str D and wraithcannons was a much easier proposition. Also, I nearly got tackled to the ground when I popped it one time and said "there's not a problem that 30 fire dragons can't fix!"

[Mr Mystery]

then pounding it with the D

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/16/article-2629336-1DE0BBA000000578-668_306x365.jpg

Suits you, Sir. OOH! Suits you!

[Denzark]

When you play a tight points limit, every point counts (der - I know, I know). So you need to do an analysis of what does super heavy bring. Several things spring out:

1. SH damage table - no immobilised, no Weapon destroyed. They must absolutely positively kill every HP.

2. Thunderblitz/stomp. The former is situational but amusing. The latter highly useful.

3. A big nasty weapon. Or 2.

So I personally weigh all that up. This is how I came to the conclusion about Typhon at lower points - in fact my purchase was based on the old 1500pt format for Throne of Skulls - I wanted something to do 1,2 and 3 above and at 350 base, nothing else competes. AV14 all around and ceramite armour for 20 points - someone will need D or serious Lascannon quantities to damage that. Pre-grav of course.

But I think there is a sweet spot where the SH won't make its points back unless you are careful - it can only hold 1 objective, and even separate targetting wont allow you to swamp horde armies.

I think this is why IG Malcadors etc suffer. A lot easier to pen than a AV14 box (especially a ceramite one) so can be brought down without as much effort. Similarly people are used to countering IK - 13/13/12 can be dealt with with anti LR tactics from 4th ed.

Just some further ramblings whilst the D pounding is ongoing.

[Mr Mystery]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/16/article-2629336-1DE0BBA000000578-668_306x365.jpg


Just some further ramblings whilst the D pounding is ongoing.

[Deacon Ix]

Revenant Titan.

Titan HF's. 4 Str D pie plates. 36" move. Take two and get even better defense.

I think people would be hard pressed to ignore the WK as "best bang for your buck superheavy".

Defiantly one of my Favorites and also remember the 12" Run move after it has fired :D


Hence I rarely use transports (also, still stuck in the 2nd Ed mindset that they're little more than mobile tombs).

Glad it is not just me!

Typhoon is probably the best bang for buck points wise but for shear fun the Brass Scorpion get Top on my list - it is nothing really too special if you look at it vs other super heavies but for mowing down MEQs it is awesome.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m87/dv8_eve/th_2016-05-06%2012.46.42_zpsh4swoyzj.jpg (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/dv8_eve/media/2016-05-06%2012.46.42_zpsh4swoyzj.jpg.html)

It charged teh Razor back in teh first turn, having taken out a couple of marines and a HP off a landspeeder,

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m87/dv8_eve/th_2016-05-06%2015.03.21_zpsptbtcydm.jpg (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/dv8_eve/media/2016-05-06%2015.03.21_zpsptbtcydm.jpg.html)

Then shot down a landspeeder, finished off a marine squad and charged teh Warhound, it did take a couple of turns to destroy it and a squad of Deathwing assaulted it as well from the Landraider which where stomped all over after it had finished the Titan it went after the LR and wiped it out - all done by turn 5

So in a 2000pt battle with a SH each it took out over 1500pts of stuff.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I love my Macharii to bits, and I think they're alright for the points cost, just a little vulnerable and lacking in the overbearing firepower of the Baneblade. They're cheap though. The Vanquisher is a decent multi-task weapon, and the Vulcan is pretty good at nailing Monstrous Creatures with a little Psykic assistance.

Also they're somewhat reminiscent of Churchill tanks, which is always a bonus. :)

[Mr Mystery]

And I think they come in Heresy Era squadrons?

Will double check my little black book tonight.

[CoffeeGrunt]

That would be epic, they definitely don't in the Imperial Armour book, not that I'd run more than one anyway.