Tau flechette dischargers and use in squadrons

[albertsevil]

Afternoon all,

First to set the scene: I have recently purchased 2 Tau Piranha and these will be mostly used against my regular opponets Daemons.

The rule query: How many potential wounds can be caused by flechettes? Do I simply roll for the models in base contact with the Piranha? Or can I roll against the squad entirely? Also if I am running the Piranha as a squadron can each Piranha 'attack' or can I roll only once? There is to my knowledge nothing which adequately answers this question in the main rule book, and I have read conflicting advice from both sides on the internet.

Tau codex (p30): "any model attacking the vehicle in close combat will be wounded on a d6 roll of 4+"

Mini rule book (p63): a model can assault a vehicle "as normal, all engaged models will attack"

MRB (p35): enaged models are those in base contact or within 2" of a model who is

MRB (p64): "when engaged in close combat against a squadron, enemy models roll to hit and for armour penetration against the squadron as a whole" + "against vehicles, there is no defender's reaction, combat resolution, pile-in moves, consolidation, etc"

Would I be right in thinking that my Piranha each get to roll once per model that is deemed engaged against either vehicle? Potentially rolling more dice than enemy models? I.e. certain enemy models which could be deemed to be engaged with either Piranha could be rolled for twice (once per Piranha).

Is it possible for a vehicle which hasn't been assaulted but which is within 2" of a vehcile (in the same unit) that has been assaulted to count as engaged and therefore "attack" with flechettes?

I remember reading somewhere that each vehicle would get to roll one dice per enemy squad member even if certain enemy models were not engaged. However I would hate to try something like that in a game without some evidence to back it up, and can find no evidence to do so myself.

What are people's thoughts? Any help welcome and appreciated. I have no intention of bending the rules but simply of giving my little skimmers the best possible chance in life.

Good gaming

[Fellend]

No since it says models, you only roll against the model that is hitting the vehicle in question.

For example if 10 models attack your two pirahnas and a squad of fire warriors (not very likely but for demo-purposes)

5-attack Pirahna A and recieve 5 potential wounds
3-attack pirahna B and recieve 3 potential wounds
2 attack the fire warriors and receive no wounds.

If only one of them have a flechette discharger I'm more confused as to what happends But I think the 8 that attack the squadron would recieve wounds.

[Image]

Afternoon all,

First to set the scene: I have recently purchased 2 Tau Piranha and these will be mostly used against my regular opponets Daemons.

The rule query: How many potential wounds can be caused by flechettes? Do I simply roll for the models in base contact with the Piranha? Or can I roll against the squad entirely? Also if I am running the Piranha as a squadron can each Piranha 'attack' or can I roll only once? There is to my knowledge nothing which adequately answers this question in the main rule book, and I have read conflicting advice from both sides on the internet.

Tau codex (p30): "any model attacking the vehicle in close combat will be wounded on a d6 roll of 4+"

Mini rule book (p63): a model can assault a vehicle "as normal, all engaged models will attack"

MRB (p35): enaged models are those in base contact or within 2" of a model who is

MRB (p64): "when engaged in close combat against a squadron, enemy models roll to hit and for armour penetration against the squadron as a whole" + "against vehicles, there is no defender's reaction, combat resolution, pile-in moves, consolidation, etc"

Would I be right in thinking that my Piranha each get to roll once per model that is deemed engaged against either vehicle? Potentially rolling more dice than enemy models? I.e. certain enemy models which could be deemed to be engaged with either Piranha could be rolled for twice (once per Piranha).

Is it possible for a vehicle which hasn't been assaulted but which is within 2" of a vehcile (in the same unit) that has been assaulted to count as engaged and therefore "attack" with flechettes?

I remember reading somewhere that each vehicle would get to roll one dice per enemy squad member even if certain enemy models were not engaged. However I would hate to try something like that in a game without some evidence to back it up, and can find no evidence to do so myself.

What are people's thoughts? Any help welcome and appreciated. I have no intention of bending the rules but simply of giving my little skimmers the best possible chance in life.

Good gaming

You're extending the key word "attacking" to mean "engaged with." This simply isn't the case. You determine which models are attacking which vehicle and apply flechette dischargers accordingly.

[Detox1701]

You're extending the key word "attacking" to mean "engaged with." This simply isn't the case. You determine which models are attacking which vehicle and apply flechette dischargers accordingly.

I don't think it is as simple as that. For attacking a squadron you only need be in contact with one vehicle, however the squadron as a whole takes hits and is vulnerable so the whole squadron is being "attacked".

So what's good for the goose is good for the gander?

Boltandchain overall opinion appears to be both Flechettes are fired and thus more wounds than troops is possible if you have multiple vehicles in a squadron....

Tough area to call - wish there was an official ruling on this one.

[albertsevil]

If all attacks in close combat are against the squadron (not the individual vehicle) then surely all the enemy models would count as attacking each vehicle and an arguement could be made for each vehicle being able to use it's flechette's against the entire enemy unit?

E.g. 10 daemonettes attack two piranha, the daemon's attacks go against the squadron and therefore they will be deemed to be attacking each vehicle. If they are attacking each vehicle then each piranha could roll 1 flechette wound per attacking daemonette (2x10=20 in total).

The same could be said for the 10 daemons attacking 2 piranha but only being in contact with one. The whole vehilce unit is being attacked so why can't the unengaged vehicle attack as wel?

If 2 piranha were opperating as seperate units and were both assaulted at the same time then models which are not in base contact with either vehicle but are within 2" (engaged) could be hit with flechettes from both piranha - potentially resulting in more flechette rolls than enemy models. Surely this would be the case if the piranha were joined together in a squadron as well? Otherwise the ruling is detrimental to squadrons in assault.

Or is that just me reading the rules wrong? Does anyone know of any GW or tournament rulings on the matter?

[ZenPaladin]

Seeing as how one Demon Prince or other large modle could attack one piranha and destroy an entire squadron I don't think its wrong to allow ever piranha the chance to inflict wounds back.

I'm a bit biased because I play the Tau but the idea that you could shoot up one piranha and kill two or melee one piranha and kill two but the two of them can't hurt you back in melee seems un-fair.

Besides it would give an expensive unit a useful function as a thorny barrier to assualting armies and the Tau need all the help they can get.

[plasticaddict]

Only vehicles equipped with a flechette discharger get to use them, even if it is in a squadron. Models that attack a vehicle equipped with a flechette discharger are wounded on a 4+, in order to be elegiable for a wound you must be attacking the vehicle with the discharger. Simply being in range to attack isn't enough to make you elegiable for the wound you must be attacking the vehicle. It would be nice and fitting of an area effect weapon to cause wounds on every modle in range however that isn't how the rule reads.

Example: a ten man Fire Warrior squad assaults a Pirahana squadron of five that are all equiped with Flechette dischargers. Only the Shas'El is equipped with an EMP grenade making him the only model attacking, he is the only model that the flechette discharger will affect and he will only be attacked once even though there are five Pirahanahs in the squadron. That is how I read the rule and how I have played it locally since I started playing Tau, the week after the current codex was released.

"ZenPladin: Besides it would give an expensive unit a useful function as a thorny barrier to assualting armies and the Tau need all the help they can get."

I agree with the thought but I still don't think the rules support it currently.

[Hyperion]

Only vehicles equipped with a flechette discharger get to use them, even if it is in a squadron. Models that attack a vehicle equipped with a flechette discharger are wounded on a 4+, in order to be elegiable for a wound you must be attacking the vehicle with the discharger. Simply being in range to attack isn't enough to make you elegiable for the wound you must be attacking the vehicle. It would be nice and fitting of an area effect weapon to cause wounds on every modle in range however that isn't how the rule reads.

Example: a ten man Fire Warrior squad assaults a Pirahana squadron of five that are all equiped with Flechette dischargers. Only the Shas'El is equipped with an EMP grenade making him the only model attacking, he is the only model that the flechette discharger will affect and he will only be attacked once even though there are five Pirahanahs in the squadron. That is how I read the rule and how I have played it locally since I started playing Tau, the week after the current codex was released.

"ZenPladin: Besides it would give an expensive unit a useful function as a thorny barrier to assualting armies and the Tau need all the help they can get."

I agree with the thought but I still don't think the rules support it currently.

It's a hard one, but: engaged models must fight (p35) which I read to mean the unit as a whole is attacking whether individual models can cause damage or not... back that up with "As normal, all engaged models will attack" (p63) therefore every engaged model that is not allocating all it's hits against another unit it is also engaged with is attacking the vehicle squadron. Now this: "...enemy models roll to hit and for armour penetration against the squadron as a whole." See, this was simpler in the last edition but here it's a bit murky... so take the Daemon Prince mentioned above: in 3rd edition he would have hit one vehicle only but now, if he is hitting all the vehicles in a squadron, then each vehicle has indisputedly been attacked and should therefore be able to discharge flechettes. What's good for one is good for ten so as I read it a unit is attacking the squadron as a whole and thus each vehicle gets to discharge flechettes against every engaged model. Could really do with a faq though...

[slxiii]

that's not how squadrons work. If theyre both in one squadron, and a total of 8 are attacking the piranhas, then 16 total rolls to wound would be made. You can't attack members of a squadron individually, you attack them as a whole.

[plasticaddict]

It's a hard one, but: engaged models must fight (p35) which I read to mean the unit as a whole is attacking whether individual models can cause damage or not... back that up with "As normal, all engaged models will attack" (p63) therefore every engaged model that is not allocating all it's hits against another unit it is also engaged with is attacking the vehicle squadron. Now this: "...enemy models roll to hit and for armour penetration against the squadron as a whole." See, this was simpler in the last edition but here it's a bit murky... so take the Daemon Prince mentioned above: in 3rd edition he would have hit one vehicle only but now, if he is hitting all the vehicles in a squadron, then each vehicle has indisputedly been attacked and should therefore be able to discharge flechettes. What's good for one is good for ten so as I read it a unit is attacking the squadron as a whole and thus each vehicle gets to discharge flechettes against every engaged model. Could really do with a faq though...

You do not count as engeged with vehicles without a weapon skill, so you would not have to attack the vehicles. That damage is spread across the squadron does not make all of the vehicles cabiable of firing its dischargers. The deamon Prince in the example is not attacking all of the vehicles only the one he is assigning his attacks to. That squadrons assign wounds to individaul vehicles is similar to wound allocation with infantry, models not engaged in an assault can be removed as casualties but not be able to attack, I feel that this is the same for squadrons. If this was a squadron of walkers only those engaged would get to attack, so the same rules would apply. IMHO

[slxiii]

the flechettes work when the vehicle is attacked
if it can be hurt it is being attacked
and a vehicle cannot be singled out as a target in a squadron

[Old_Paladin]

It's only ever one roll to wound per model attacking the squadron.This is also the INAT ruling (although I know not everybody plays by those rulings).
Otherwise, you'll end up with stupid things like a person with only two attacks getting hit 5 times... how does that happen?

Also, think about it as if it was a multi assault with different vehicles; if I have 10 orks attack two devilfish (5 per each) I'd still only take 10 hits; things are assumbed to be spread evenly.

The best argument you can hope for is that you can roll extra for every individual model in contact with more then one vehicle.

[whitestar333]

I think that if you pay for the upgrade on two vehicles, you should get both of their benefits.

[DarkLink]

I think that if you pay for the upgrade on two vehicles, you should get both of their benefits.

Well, you do. The benefit is, any model attacking the squadron takes a single wound on a 4+. And if one piranha gets destroyed, you don't lose the benefit. But it seems that's it.

Just don't take two in the squad, if you feel it's unfair.

[plasticaddict]

Ditto Darklink.

[Culven]

You do not count as engeged with vehicles without a weapon skill,. . .
Actually, they do. They just don't count as Locked, which is why they can be shot while in base contact and either unit can freely move away. So, if they are Engaged, they would be required to attack, as Hyperion mentioned. So, there would be no holding back in an attempt to reduce the Flechette hits.

[DadExtraordinaire]

Reading the BRB and the Tau Codex (remembering the Codex overrules the BRB - GW's own words)

IMHO I would take it as follows: if an unit of Orks 10 strong assault a piranha unit of 2 models then each Ork either engaged (within 2" as they contribute attacks againast the vehicle squadron) or base to base with the vehicles, then any model attacking vehicle (s) in close combat will be wounded on a D6 roll of 4+, saves allowed, before the Orks can resolve their attacks. In other words the Tau player rolls for the 1st piranha and rolles ten 4's and the 2nd piranha he rolles five 4's then the Ork player has to make 15 saves.....

[Detox1701]

Well, you do. The benefit is, any model attacking the squadron takes a single wound on a 4+. And if one piranha gets destroyed, you don't lose the benefit. But it seems that's it.

Just don't take two in the squad, if you feel it's unfair.

No you aren't getting the benefit - Taking one gets you the same benefit, put your wounds on the vehicles without the upgrade and you lose nothing. RAW and RAI aren't clear on this one, another item that needs an official FAQ - an old edition item that doesn't function the same in a new game edition:confused:.

[albertsevil]

Hey, thanks for all the replies.

Having read both sides, I think I will err on the side of each vehicle with flechettes geting to roll one dice per enemy model attacking the unit. It makes the most sense to me both rules and fluff wise, though playing Tau I am of course slightly biased... lol. If my opponent has a problem we'lll simply roll off to decide.

For the benefit of anyone reading this here's my summary (not at all endorsed):

1. models may assault a vehicle in combat (without being locked in combat) by engaging it in base to base contact or being within one inch of a friendly model that is.
2. attacking models attack the vehicle squadron as a whole, the entire unit must attack if possible, the owning player can then allocated 'wounds' to the vehicles (dividing equally). The whole unit counts as being attacked in this sense.
3. vehicles that have the flechette upgrade and are attacked in close combat can roll one dice per attacking model and that model then suffers a wound on a 4+ (saves apply)
4. it stands to reason that if the attacks are made against the whole unit then all vehicles with the flechette upgrade may attack back against the assaulting enemy models

I.e. 10 Orks assault 2 vehicles (both with flechettes) the orks are deemed to be attacking the entire squadron not the vehicle they are base with, so each vehicle is attacked and can flechette once per ork (10 flechette rolls per vehicle)

Now I realise the flechette rule was written under 4th edition and thus has struggles to deal with the 5th edition concept of attacks being made agaisnt the entire squadron. I feel a FAQ or GW answer would be useful but probably not forthcoming.

RAW: we struggle as we can argue for and against, and there is nothing final to support either side, though i feel the interpretation above is the best supported by the rules
RAI: i feel it is most likely that the the intended use was for each vehicle suffering an attack to be able to flechette back, see above
Fluff: the more vehicles under attack the more flechettes in the air, the greater danger to enemy troops

Nothing conclusive but thought it might help somebody somewhere down the line. I hope that helps. Again, thank you to all who replied and I have not simply dismissed any arguements but read and considered them all. Good gaming to all