Marines on... Bikes?

[Sir Biscuit]

Not sure whether to put this in lists or tactics, as I have a list here but I'm looking for tactics. =P If it's in the wrong place, move it please, mods.

Okay, here's the deal: I have recently come into a fair amount of money, and I've earmarked some for 40k. I have enough, in fact, to buy an army I've always wanted to play: Bike Marines.

Problem is, I have no idea what to do with them. How do I equip them? How many do I take? What support should I use? I've never played this list, nor have I ever seen anyone who has.

I'm thinking triple Dakkapreds and triple Typhoon Speeders as tank-busting support. (Bonus in that I already own those.) That way I can threaten tanks, and pop transports. It seems to me like denying my opponent mobility is the most important thing in this army, because it's fast but doesn't hit particularly hard. My biggest problem is, how do I outfit my bike squads?

I would appreciate any help, especially from people who have played this kind of army.

Here's my current list I am thinking about:
HQ
Captain
+Bike
+Relic Blade
+Storm Shield
+Artificer Armor
Troops
Bike Squad
+Powerfist
+Combi-Flamer
+5 Bikes
+2 Meltaguns
+Attack Bike
+Multi-Melta

Bike Squad
+Powerfist
+Combi-Flamer
+5 Bikes
+2 Meltaguns
+Attack Bike
+Multi-Melta

Bike Squad
+Powerfist
+Combi-Flamer
+5 Bikes
+2 Meltaguns
+Attack Bike
+Multi-Melta

Bike Squad
+Powerfist
+Combi-Flamer
+5 Bikes
+2 Meltaguns
+Attack Bike
+Multi-Melta
Fast Attack
Land Speeder
+Typhoon Missile Launcher
+Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder
+Typhoon Missile Launcher
+Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder
+Typhoon Missile Launcher
+Heavy Flamer

Heavy Support
Predator
+Heavy Bolters

Predator
+Heavy Bolters

Predator
+Heavy Bolters

2000 points on the nose. Now, I know I've posted an army, list, and sure, advice on that is nice, but I'm really looking for tactical advice. I know that bike armies can be good, but what should I take and what seems to be the general strategy?

[Tynskel]

I wouldn't do all bikes. Like most things: diminishing returns.

You really need a close combat unit-- one choice would be assault marines to keep up with your fast moving bikes. Another option, if you are stuck on bikes, is to take a Bike Command Squad that is tooled for CC. Very Pricey, but awesome sauce.

350 Command Squad
5 Bikes, 2 Plasma Rifle, Powerfist, 2 Power Weapons, 4 Storm Shields

Another thing to look into is a Vortex of Doom Libby. The Vortex is actually useful, because the bike can move n' fire.

I like that you are not using Kahn, there are a lot of cool things bikes can do with combat tactics. (Go to Ground, take a casualty, fail moral, then fall back, zip back up because you are on bikes!)

Third Recommendations is to ditch a predator and replace with a Vindicator- 2 preds n' a Vindicator tend to work well together.

[Sir Biscuit]

Yeah, with the speed of bikes, outflanking seems to be less valuable. Plus, I looooooove combat tactics.

Weirdly enough, what little advice I have received on bikes has given me the impression that I should either go all bikes or no bikes. Is there a reason you hit a diminishing return? Swapping bike squads for tactical squads seems like it messes up the "flow" of the army, and bikes aren't that more expensive. In fact, these bike squads are only 80 points more than a tactical squad.

The command squad actually doesn't seem like that bad of an idea. It's actually pretty close to the cost of a regular squad. If I drop a few SS, it's a 1-1 swap. Also, one should be a company champion on bike, instead of two power swords, though that's minor. Also the plasma with FNP sounds fantastic. Actually, running the command squad solo and the captain with another squad puts some melee threat throughout the army, and doesn't present any "obvious" targets.

I'm actually interested in running plasma guns instead of meltas, the relentless seems like it would make them quite useful, if risky. I don't know if there's a good answer here, but always having the 24" shot seems nice. Maybe one of each?

I'm worried that the vindi won't "keep up" so to speak. I would think the army has to move around quite a lot to work, so it either needs things that are very fast or have very long range I could be wrong though, it requires some playtesting.

[eagleboy7259]

Oh absolutely. Speaking of which we just had another member asking around about Deathwing and whether thats viable and whatnot and somebody else came up with this great Tactica on SM bike armies which I just happened to save. I'm personally not gonna offer any advise because I haven't fielded a biker unit since 3rd ed and I found them to be awful but this might be worth a look for you http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/40k-finished-tacticas/190403-tactica-space-marine-bike-armies.html

[Tynskel]

One thing I didn't Catch that's REALLY IMPORTANT:
Bike Sgts cannot take two personal weapons, they can only replace the Bolt Pistol- they have no chainsword.


Diminishing Returns- basically, those extra 80 points can get you a lot of things (land speeders, wargear, ect). Don't forget, the tactical squad has a piece of armor, keeping them immune to small arms fire, ect.

I have never been a fan of spammin' units, which is also why I recommend the change up.

As for the Vindicator, it isn't always about 'keeping up'- those things have a 24" range, and just need to get a firing solution. Plus, a vindicator is a priority target, much higher than a predator destructor is, but it is cheap enough to not care if the tank gets shot to hell- which is what makes it a great tank.

The nice thing about a single tactical squad is you can have the tactical marines do what they are good at: claiming objectives. Take a Razorback with an Assault cannon, give the squad a missile launcher, and have the combat squad move up. The assault cannon starts putting the tank into the target priority- which you want to draw fire away from your bike squads. You'll still have points left over to buy more land speeders. You want more land speeders- dakka dakka dakka!

HQ 510
200 Captain
Bike, Artificer Armor, Relic Blade, Storm Shield
310 Command Squad
5 Bikes, 3 Storm Shields, 2 Plasma Rifles, Champion, Lightning Claw

TROOPS 880
260 Tactical Squad
10 Marines, Power Weapon, Flamer, Missile Launcher
Dedicated Transport: Razorback, Twin-Linked Assault Cannons
310 Bike Squad
8 Bikes, Attack Bike, 2 Meltaguns, Multi-Melta, Powerfist
310 Bike Squad
8 Bikes, Attack Bike, 2 Meltaguns, Multi-Melta, Powerfist

Hv SUPPORT 310
85 Predator Destructor
Hv Bolter Sponsons
85 Predator Destructor
Hv Bolter Sponsons
140 Vindicator
Siege Shield, Ex Armor

FAST ATTACK 300
120 Land Speeder Squadron
2 Land Speeders, 4 Hv Bolters
90 Land Speeder
Typhoon Launchers, Hv Flamers
90 Land Speeder
Typhoon Launchers, Hv Flamers

This list still gives you a lot of bikes (24 bikes), a mobile anti-infantry unit, 4 Tanks, and 4 Land Speeders. Pretty fun all around, and quite flexible.

[Sir Biscuit]

Thanks for the tactica link, Eagleboy- it was a great read and gave me some new ideas. :) Don't know why I didn't think of maxing weapons in small squads, it's smart.

Good catch on the bolt pistol Tynskel- looks like I won't be taking powerfists and combi-weapons together.

I don't really mind spamming units- what works, works. That being said, variety is good. I do like Vindicators (in fact I own three) but I just don't see them being terribly effective unless taken in numbers, and used with a more "rock" kind of army- my concern isn't that they won't get in range of something, but rather than that something will not be the right thing I need to support my fast-but-fragile bikes.

Not terribly concerned about claiming my own objectives either, 24" is a looong move.

There's nothing bad about the list you posted, other than, well, it's not enough bikes for me. =) I'd like to play a pure(ish) bikes list and not a hybrid. I've played plenty of mechanized marine armies, and I'm really looking for something different. I do know that pure bike armies can work, (despite their appearances on paper) one won the Broadside Bash recently and became the second of its kind to grab a ticket to Vegas. I think that the key to looking at these armies may be to see them like Eldar armies- seemingly weak in firepower on paper (at least compared to normal marine lists) but devastatingly mobile on the tabletop.

List adjustment once again!
HQ
Captain
+Bike
+Relic Blade
+Storm Shield
+Artificer Armor
Command Squad
+Bikes
+Company Champion
+Lightning Claw
+2 Storm Shields
+2 Plasma Guns
Troops
Bike Squad
+Powerfist
+2 Meltaguns
+2 Bikes
+Attack Bike
+Multi-Melta
Bike Squad
+Powerfist
+2 Meltaguns
+2 Bikes
+Attack Bike
+Multi-Melta
Bike Squad
+Meltabombs
+Power Sword
+2 Plasma Guns
+2 Bikes
+Attack Bike
+Multi-Melta
Bike Squad
+Meltabombs
+Power Sword
+2 Plasma Guns
+2 Bikes
+Attack Bike
+Multi-Melta
Bike Squad
+Meltabombs
+Power Sword
+2 Flamers
+2 Bikes
+Attack Bike
+Multi-Melta
Fast Attack
2 Land Speeders
+2 Typhoon Missile Launchers
2 Land Speeders
+2 Typhoon Missile Launchers
Land Speeder
+Typhoon Missile Launcher

[Tynskel]

This is pretty cool.

Much more streamlined n' fast- I get chills up n' down my spine reading this list.

Don't forget to try out a Thunder Hammer commander. He's pretty resilient with T5, 2+ and 3+ inv- same point cost too. ;)

[DarkLink]

I'd check out two things: First off, Way of the Water Warrior (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214). Best 40k tactica I've ever read, and very applicable to your choice of army.

Secondly, there's a bike tactica written by a guy named Red Hunter that got brought up recently somewhere here. I don't have a link to it, but someone who does might be kind enough to post it.

Edit: Oh, hey, someone already did link to the article. Cool.

[eagleboy7259]

I'd check out two things: First off, Way of the Water Warrior (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214). Best 40k tactica I've ever read, and very applicable to your choice of army.

Secondly, there's a bike tactica written by a guy named Red Hunter that got brought up recently somewhere here. I don't have a link to it, but someone who does might be kind enough to post it.

Edit: Oh, hey, someone already did link to the article. Cool.

That things been bopping around the different forums. He makes good sense for the most part, but that's all I could think of was its smoke and mirrors to spam the Land Raiders. That worked during 4th ed cuz he didn't actually need troops choices outside of the FOC and there wasn't as much anti-tank floating around. God can you imagine that list vs the Vulkan spam floating around these days :p

Anyway that doesn't quiet apply here seeing as he'd be classified as an "Air" type army and he only really briefly touches on that. Silly very much worth the read if you have the time.

[DAPHEEL]

I've recently finished finished a marine bike army - You'll find it's really fun to play. One thing i have found usefull is drop podding a couple of Assault Cannon / Heavy Flamer dreads, with one coming on in the firt turn to start harrasing troops it acts as a good destraction while your army closes.
It's also worth considering a couple of squads of 3 Attack Bikes with Heavy Bolters in place of the Predators as they can keep up with the rest of your force.
At 120pts. they can lay down a good deal of supporting fire to soften up units before you assault them, following just behind your lead units (i normally find they tend to get left alone, as your opponent has the lead units with the Melta Guns / Multi meltas to deal with). If You arm them with Multi Meltas they become much more of a threat, and will probably get splatted pretty quick.

But to be honest, the list you've drawn up looks pretty well rounded and should be enjoyable to play as well as being competative.
Have fun Amigo!

[DarkLink]

That things been bopping around the different forums. He makes good sense for the most part, but that's all I could think of was its smoke and mirrors to spam the Land Raiders. That worked during 4th ed cuz he didn't actually need troops choices outside of the FOC and there wasn't as much anti-tank floating around. God can you imagine that list vs the Vulkan spam floating around these days :p

Anyway that doesn't quiet apply here seeing as he'd be classified as an "Air" type army and he only really briefly touches on that. Silly very much worth the read if you have the time.

Yeah, the description of his list, and some of the specifics, come from a 4th ed ruleset. Most of the more general tactics and strategy, though, is still very, very applicable, and definately worth the read.

And one of the nice things is that "air" armies are just really, really fast "water" armies. Even though he doesn't spend a lot of time talking specifically about air armies, a lot of his ideas can still apply to them.

[Sir Biscuit]

Haha, I actually have had Water Warrior bookmarked since it first came out. I think it's really applicable to every army, and that ALL high tier armies are "water warrior" armies. Really, the thing that I disagree with most about his tactica is the idea that he clumps armies into four categories... I think it's more complex than that. That being said, it's still and excellent tactica and one I recommend to all my friends.

As for dreads, I am concerned that their lack of mobility will "lock" the army into a forward-assault role. Dreads aren't effective unless you take multiples, and multiples means a lot of points invested. A lot of points invested means that they need support, or else they are ineffective. Like an individual unit, the army can only move at the speed of the slowest unit. Unless the dreadnoughts are a suicide unit, but they are too expensive to really be used that way efficiently. I feel the same bout attack bikes... I'd rather take another regular squad with attached bike, it's scoring, less vulnerable, and doesn't take up a fast attack slot that I can use for speeders. Then again, both may be a matter of taste.

Also, I'm swapping all the power swords in that list for lightning claws. After running some numbers, it's clear that a lightning claw is better than the sword.

[eagleboy7259]

Haha, I actually have had Water Warrior bookmarked since it first came out. I think it's really applicable to every army, and that ALL high tier armies are "water warrior" armies. Really, the thing that I disagree with most about his tactica is the idea that he clumps armies into four categories... I think it's more complex than that. That being said, it's still and excellent tactica and one I recommend to all my friends.

As for dreads, I am concerned that their lack of mobility will "lock" the army into a forward-assault role. Dreads aren't effective unless you take multiples, and multiples means a lot of points invested. A lot of points invested means that they need support, or else they are ineffective. Like an individual unit, the army can only move at the speed of the slowest unit. Unless the dreadnoughts are a suicide unit, but they are too expensive to really be used that way efficiently. I feel the same bout attack bikes... I'd rather take another regular squad with attached bike, it's scoring, less vulnerable, and doesn't take up a fast attack slot that I can use for speeders. Then again, both may be a matter of taste.

Also, I'm swapping all the power swords in that list for lightning claws. After running some numbers, it's clear that a lightning claw is better than the sword.

Really?? I don't know maybe I'm in the minority in that I think just the opposite is true. I feel as though a reactive army is possibly the weakest choice in 40k. Sure he supports complementary composition and units that help each other, but I feel like that doesn't really add up vs an alpha strike army or a in your face assault army. Its like "I punch you, now watcha gonna do about it?" but anyway he does make some good points. I hadn't really thought that a biker army is really just a fast water army but I suppose you are right, they're more like a terminator in most regards than an assault marine.

If you like that then I would definitely recommend Fritz's How to Win at 40k pdf. Sure he charges like $5 for it, but its definitely worth it.

[Sir Biscuit]

I agree that an entirely reactive army isn't good- in fact, it's probably one of the weakest in the game, since you must necessarily play the opponent's game with it. But the "Way of the Water Warrior" doesn't actually suggest that you should play an entirely reactive army. It does recommend that you develop a strategy to counter your opponent and play defensibly, but that does not mean reactively. I think, maybe, he made a mistake in choosing that word.

The correct way to play an army like a "water warrior" is actually to make your opponent play reactivity. By using mobility coupled with elite troops, you can force your opponent into no-win decisions, or situations where the obvious answer is actually the worst choice. Eldar (and Bike) armies do this through extreme speed that makes sure your opponent can't effectively castle up, or concentrate on any one flank. GK (especially LR GK) do it through their great durability and moral stability on the tabletop. These armies can force an opponent to overreact to the threats he's facing, and draw him out of position.

Alpha-Strike armies are quite good- if you go first, and your enemy is playing a list he can't effectively reserve. They are a big risk, betting a lot on the idea that you can cripple an opponent before he even gets to you. Even the most stalwart defenders of alpha-strike lists still describe them as "fragile"... eight razorbacks and attendant squads (for example) puts out a lot of firepower, but crumples like paper if anything significant hits your lines.

The reason I don't think an aplha-strike/bikes hybrid list works is that you can't do both to the degree you need to be truly competitive. Losing bikes for slow-moving but hard hitting alpha strike units means you lose the mobility and numbers you need to throw the opponent off balance, and you still won't have enough hard units to alpha strike because you brought so many bikes.

In addition, bikes have one of the best anti-alpha-strike abilities in the game: turbo-boosting and 12" normal movement. Universal 3+ cover really messes with "low-number-of-shots-low-AP" armies and the large regular move means that skimmers and other fast vehicles can't block the bikes from getting to the hard hitters. In addition, the 24" move means that bike armies have no problem with starting their entire force in reserve should the situation call for it.

I am not saying that a hybrid list can't work, exactly- though I've never seen a tournament report where it has. I'm just saying I don't think it's for me. If it works for you, by all means play it, making your playstyle work can be far more important that internet wisdom.

[DarkLink]

I would broadly categorize all 40k strategies as falling into one of two camps, either reactive or proactive.

Proactive is about steamrolling your opponent. You bring a fast, alpha strike army that will kill your opponent before they get to hit back. Or you bring a durable, tough army that can weather any opponent's firepower, and grind them down in a firefight. Or you bring a deathstar unit and use it to smash your opponent.

The point is, you are trying to force your plan on your opponent.

Reactive is kind of a misleading term, in a way. It isn't about letting your opponent do whatever, and try to weather the storm. It's about thinking "ok, what's my opponent's plan, how can I take advantage of that plan, and how do I make it collapse on itself".

If your opponent is going to be aggressive and rush at you, you kite him and funnel him into killzones, then steal the charge after he's been whittled down.

If your opponent is going to turtle, and has superior firepower, then you take advantage of cover and reserves, and try to limit his firepower and get into his lines.

You look at your opponent's plan, and figure out how to stop it.




Good players (and good lists) can learn to switch between the two of these styles instinctively. With my Grey Knights, I usually play reactively, but sometimes it gets to the point where I've popped enough of my opponents transports and whittled him down enough that suddenly, I can take the initiative and smash him and grab the objectives.

Other armies might start out with their plan, but then at the end of the game the plan has gotten messed up, and they have to start playing reactively. They have to think "ok, here's the situation, here's what I can do to win, here's what my opponent can do to win. How can I stop my opponent from winning, and pull off a victory myself".



Haha, I actually have had Water Warrior bookmarked since it first came out. I think it's really applicable to every army, and that ALL high tier armies are "water warrior" armies. Really, the thing that I disagree with most about his tactica is the idea that he clumps armies into four categories... I think it's more complex than that. That being said, it's still and excellent tactica and one I recommend to all my friends.

As for dreads, I am concerned that their lack of mobility will "lock" the army into a forward-assault role. Dreads aren't effective unless you take multiples, and multiples means a lot of points invested. A lot of points invested means that they need support, or else they are ineffective.


Yeah, I bookmarked it, too. I use it as my Bolter and Chainsword bookmark, lol.

As for Dreads, I've had good luck using an Assault Cannon/Powerfist GK Dread as a support unit (my opponents let me use the good assault cannon rules). I walk it up behind my Land Raider, peeking out to take potshots. I can use it as a roadbump, or use it to tie up enemy units that can't kill it very well, or to smash exposed HQ units that I don't want to assault with a more valuable unit.

If you have a Land Raider or a couple of Rhinos to hide it behind, you can make even a single footslogging Dread work with a little practice. If you have no other vehicles, then yeah, it probably won't do too well. I don't see any vehicles other than Landspeeders in your list, so you're probably better off with something else, unless you can afford 3 Dreads to drop in your opponents face or something.



Really?? I don't know maybe I'm in the minority in that I think just the opposite is true. I feel as though a reactive army is possibly the weakest choice in 40k. Sure he supports complementary composition and units that help each other, but I feel like that doesn't really add up vs an alpha strike army or a in your face assault army. Its like "I punch you, now watcha gonna do about it?" but anyway he does make some good points. I hadn't really thought that a biker army is really just a fast water army but I suppose you are right, they're more like a terminator in most regards than an assault marine.

If you like that then I would definitely recommend Fritz's How to Win at 40k pdf. Sure he charges like $5 for it, but its definitely worth it.



I've had great success with the general reactive playstyle with my Grey Knights. Note, as I mentioned above, that this doesn't mean that I exclusively play reactively (the best players switch seamlessly between reactive and proactive play depending on the situation).

Nor doe reactive mean just sitting around waiting to take the opponent's blow. It's about how to ruin your opponent's plan.

Against an Alpha Strike army, put lots of stuff in reserves. I've started doing this every game. I usually have a couple Land Raiders full of Grey Knights, a GK Dread, and a few Rhinos with ISTs in it. The Land Raiders can usually start on the board behind cover and shrug off missile launcher and lascannon fire, while the Rhinos and sometimes the Dread are in reserve. So far I've had ok luck with my reserves coming in just in time to blow up my opponent's advancing transports just before they get into effective assault range. It lets me wipe out a good chunk of my opponent's army fairly quickly, without much fear of retribution. It's not good for every game, but that's just an example of good reactive playing.

[blackarmchair]

You want bikes?

Try Nurgle bikers, I wish I had the money for that army. T6 space marines on bikes...****'s reidic.

[Sir Biscuit]

True, but they are also much more expensive and they can't be taken as troops. Nurgle bikers, even when they aren't really loaded out, cost more than assault terminators.

[Sitnam]

May I ask if anyone has had good luck with a mounted captain and command sqaud, tooled up for CC? It is expensive, but seems like it could be a powerful build.

[DarkLink]

One of our local players routinely uses a captain with command squad. I would not, however, recommend tooling it up exclusively for CC. It gets too expensive, and bike armies need to remain flexible to win.

[eagleboy7259]

May I ask if anyone has had good luck with a mounted captain and command sqaud, tooled up for CC? It is expensive, but seems like it could be a powerful build.

Absolutely. There was a Tau player on Relic after the current C:SM dropped complaining that unit singlehandedly would win games for him. T5, FNP, and a 3+ cover save means you will lock in combat or pop any tank of your choosing on turn 2. Pretty nasty. It does come with a pretty high price tag, but for biker armies they're mostly missing a Hammer Unit, and a command squad can foot the bill.