I've noticed few if any take rank and file anymore

[Auticus]

As the topic notes, I've noticed that few if any lists involve any rank and file anymore. Particularly R&F like reavers/marauders.

Are we giving GW the sign to stop putting out rank and file models?

[Mr Mystery]

Wait for the points system.

Me, I still use them. Most of the little fellas come with a bulk booster, so they can do more damage than most think.

[grimmas]

I like a Dark Feast battalion. My marauders with two handed weapons have been repurposed as Bloodreavers with Meatripper Axes.

[Erik Setzer]

If you can just throw out the elites only, why not use them only? Especially as any R&F older than a few months looks weedy next to the AoS "R&F" models (who are also too often statted up to be elites).

The bulk booster sounds great, until you realize it means you have to drop a very sizable chunk of change to get that boost, and have to paint up all those models. If you can just take a few models that end up being cheaper and a lot faster to paint, why use the others?

It gets even worse when you factor in the base game's reliance on model count as "balance," so if you take R&F, you're actually giving your opponent an advantage.

I suspect the "Matched Play" might help the situation some, but for now, there's just no real incentive to take R&F, and lots of incentive to take non-R&F.

[Morgrim]

Half my Seraphon army is still Saurus Warriors. Part it is that's what I have, true, but they're good enough that I'm happy fielding them. I guess it depends how many models a unit needs to be effective?

[grimmas]

I suppose it also matters whether you're playing "competitive" equal sized forces or utilising narative scenarios. If you're playing a narative Game as Bloodbound without a good portion of Bloodreavers it seems a little off.

Time and effort also comes into it. It takes a lot more in terms of time and resources to knock up an effective number of Bloodreavers than Blood Warriors, as you'd need about 4 times as many for a similar power level. This has been always the way though and we've always seen more "elite" armies than hordes.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Only games I see played are all lists like Carnosaurs and a Dread Saurian vs Skarbrand and Daemons, or Nagash and Mortarchs.

Why bring Rank models when you can bring Nagash, pick a Sudden Death assassination objective, and do Hand of Dust?

[grimmas]

Only games I see played are all lists like Carnosaurs and a Dread Saurian vs Skarbrand and Daemons, or Nagash and Mortarchs.

Why bring Rank models when you can bring Nagash, pick a Sudden Death assassination objective, and do Hand of Dust?

Well because it's a bit crap and there's lots of more interesting scenarios than playing the one on the starter rules.

[CoffeeGrunt]

That's all anyone plays here. WarmaHordes is just straight Caster Kill, 40K was always Kill Points. It's why I'm glad most people play Dropzone now. It's so objective-oriented that it's impossible to play it any other way, so I've been able to force people into objective games. :P

[grimmas]

That's all anyone plays here. WarmaHordes is just straight Caster Kill, 40K was always Kill Points. It's why I'm glad most people play Dropzone now. It's so objective-oriented that it's impossible to play it any other way, so I've been able to force people into objective games. :P

That's well depressing. You have my sympathies.

As an aside I found that rocking up with a bucketload of basic troops means I always get a game.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I would take rank and file if there were rank and file modes that were non-humanoid. As it is so far, I have no choice but to take more elite units which I guess is still better than 40k where I had to scratchbuild or convert the kinda stuff I like. Perhaps AoS will come out with some proper rank and file sized snakemen at some point.

[Mr Mystery]

That's well depressing. You have my sympathies.

As an aside I found that rocking up with a bucketload of basic troops means I always get a game.

And people massively underestimate your basic line troops - I think it's a hangover from previous Warhammer Player's fractured psyches.

Take Nagash. Yeah, he's hard. But he's also on a massive base. Swamp him with Empire Troops who get ludicrously hard just for having numbers, even before you add in buffs, and they can quite quickly pull all his legs off and stuff them up his nostrils.

[Path Walker]

Anything being able to damage anything means basic troops can pull their weight and more, not a lot individual models can put out enough wounds or Mortal Wounds to take them out quickly.

Its also about the narrative, its a narrative game after all. I like my Moonclan Grots, they are sneaking around in a Realm where gods walk the earth, firing arrows at anything that looks like it might have some good loot. Lead by the fearsome Gasbag Gitsticker of his mighty steed Bouncing Jeff.

[grimmas]

And people massively underestimate your basic line troops - I think it's a hangover from previous Warhammer Player's fractured psyches.

Take Nagash. Yeah, he's hard. But he's also on a massive base. Swamp him with Empire Troops who get ludicrously hard just for having numbers, even before you add in buffs, and they can quite quickly pull all his legs off and stuff them up his nostrils.

And The Death grand alliance actually has some of the best rank and file units (when used on mass).

Generally speaking R&F models are cheaper to buy and we've seen the repackaged get even more economical

[Mr Mystery]

40 Halberdiers charge Nagash, or at least wind up in combat with him. Automatic hits (no, really!), 4+ to wound, then big boy gets a 4+ save thanks to Rend -1.

And if you've got a Freeguild General? Hold The Line! Boof - +1 to hit and to Wound..... Now, granted you're very unlikely to get Nagash surrounded straight off the bat, but man. That's a lot of high quality attacks on a 3+ to wound headed his way. He's only got 16 wounds, so it doesn't take more than the teensiest bit of bad luck to see him duffed up by such lowly troops.

Now....stuff like Ironguts? Yep. Proper, proper nasty stuff. Good wounds, decent enough to hit and to wound, multiple attacks each, and a hefty 3 damage per unsaved wound? That's a different kettle of fish entirely.

But again....decent blocks of the most basic infantry can prove a thorny challenge just though their buffs.

[Erik Setzer]

And people massively underestimate your basic line troops - I think it's a hangover from previous Warhammer Player's fractured psyches.

Take Nagash. Yeah, he's hard. But he's also on a massive base. Swamp him with Empire Troops who get ludicrously hard just for having numbers, even before you add in buffs, and they can quite quickly pull all his legs off and stuff them up his nostrils.

Sure, sure, that sounds great.

Except they have to get to him. Meanwhile, he can summon a few units a turn. Those units just sit down between him and the Empire soldiers, and at worst whittle down the enemy unit. At best, they rip up those soldiers before they can get close. I'd have to get my Death book at home and run through it a bit, but I'm pretty sure he can actually summon more than 40 guys in a turn. If he opts for Zombies, they can even combine into a larger unit, which will be a really nice speedbump that could turn into more than just a speedbump.

And, of course, he can complete Sudden Death before they get there, too.

WFB actually had me loving R&F troops. AoS has done more to cause me disdain for them than WFB ever did. WFB only had one issue, and that was allowing more elite units to benefit from Horde formation, which was meant to be a bit of equalizer for more basic units like Empire State Troops and Orc Boyz. In AoS, if I have a bunch of non-R&F models to field, the game actually incentivizes getting non-R&F, especially for new players.

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40 Halberdiers charge Nagash, or at least wind up in combat with him.

I love those pretend scenarios. Because anyone with half a brain is going to do something other than sit Nagash in the back and raise multiple units each turn, providing an ARMY between him and that one unit. Oh, yeah, and that army will get to reroll 1's for hits and saves, and doesn't worry about battleshock, #becauseNagash.

I'd feel bad about agreeing to use him, but since my opponent had a freaking gunline, I don't.

Heck, he could raise one unit of Hexwraiths, give them the +1 save boost, and with his command ability they could tank those Empire units. 3+ save, rerolling 1's, ignoring Rend? Yeah. Nearly had a river on the table from the tears of an opponent who was pissed his Sigmarines and large block of Dwarf elites (can't remember which ones at the moment) could barely hurt them. He's lucky they can't take a standard, because watching Black Knights keep coming back from the dead is kind of funny.

[Auticus]

Remember - Sudden Death is only applicable if you choose to never use scenarios. All of the scenarios published except maybe one or two say to not use the victory conditions from the default scenario and use their own win conditions.

[Mr Mystery]

And it's an example of however the power scale simply isn't pronounced as previous game of previous Warhammers might suggest.

I certainly can't think of a time when 40 dudes with Halberds being cheered on by their boss were able to tackle Nagash?

[Erik Setzer]

And it's an example of however the power scale simply isn't pronounced as previous game of previous Warhammers might suggest.

I certainly can't think of a time when 40 dudes with Halberds being cheered on by their boss were able to tackle Nagash?

It was doable, but then again, they were... let's see... looks like 270 points with full command, if BattleScribe is right (have to use that as my books are at home, of course). Nagash was 1000 points. In that scenario, you don't expect them to be able to take him down by themselves.

But that you still need 40 plus a character to have a shot at him - assuming you started right up on him - means it's still pretty wide difference.

And that's fine. Heroes should feel like heroes. It should take a lot to take down the freaking GOD OF DEATH. If it was easy to do, then it'd be pretty boring and there'd be no reason to bother with heroes as they wouldn't feel heroic.

[Mr Mystery]

Again you're kinda missing the point.

In AoS, it's far harder to have say, the Dwarven Gunline of Mind Numbing Inevitability. You can't really Deathstar your way to victory because of how Battleshock works.

All those things add up to your bog standard dudes not being as weedy anymore. I think from your other posts you were probably around for 1+ save Chaos Knights when '1 is always a fail' wasn't a rule. Jeebus. Get those stuck into anything S3 and it was curtains for the weedy unit, because they couldn't hurt the Knights.

The days of Magic ruining the game are pretty much gone.

In short, it's far harder to come up with a 'sure thing' army in AoS because the curve of relative potency isn't as pronounced.

[Erik Setzer]

The Dwarf Gunline of Mundane Inevitability still works. It's only toned down a little because of the shorter range.

The only reason you can't come up with a "sure thing" army in AoS is because there's no army selection rules. It's the Wild West of gaming. If your opponent has a right 'ard army, you spend a few hundred dollars and slap down a load of elites that can outclass his army. The moment they add structure to building an army, it'll be no "better" than WFB, and it's debatable that "if I spend enough money I can have a counter for everything" is really "better." It's better for the company's bottom line, but not for people who find that the new guy only bought the 'ard units because R&F aren't worth the amount of money it'd take to make them a reasonably solid unit.

And funny you mention Battleshock, because it's a great way to whittle down a unit. That Dwarf gunline? Hit that big ol' block of Empire with a couple cannons, you do silly number of wounds, and battleshock rips a few more models out of the unit. Suddenly, they've lost a good chunk of their bonuses. (Also funny to note that Nagash makes Death models ignore Battleshock. But yeah, seriously, Nagash is OP... but he should be. And it still wasn't my call to field him.)

[grimmas]

Another plus point for Bloodreavers (other than in a Dark Feast formation with a Bloodsecrator they can get 4 attacks each and ignore Battleshock ) is that the models are freaking sweet I don't think I've had more fun painting a unit, well defined and just the right detail they're just so rewarding.

[Path Walker]

The Age of Sigmar models so far have all been ace in my opinion, they're not cheap but you're paying for some really fun models that go together really nicely (hardly any join lines so no gap filling!) and are a blast to paint.

[grimmas]

Yeah they've done a really good job on hiding the mould lines. I've only had monopose ones so far so that might have helped with that.