View Full Version : Stubborn versus Weaken Resolve
Kahoolin
08-07-2009, 10:00 PM
Hey guys I brought this up on another forum and found opinion was divided, but I know there's some experienced house rulers/TO's here who can maybe help out.
Does Stubborn (or a Book of St. Lucius or anything that allows a model to ignore Ld penalties) protect against a Psyker Battle Squad's Weaken Resolve power? So can a commissar tell his squad that it's all in their heads? :)
The way we ended up house ruling it was that Stubborn allows the unit to ignore Weaken Resolve for morale tests, but not for pinning or anything else they might be called upon to use their Ld score for. Does this seem fair/correct?
crazyredpraetorian
08-07-2009, 10:36 PM
Hey guys I brought this up on another forum and found opinion was divided, but I know there's some experienced house rulers/TO's here who can maybe help out.
Does Stubborn (or a Book of St. Lucius or anything that allows a model to ignore Ld penalties) protect against a Psyker Battle Squad's Weaken Resolve power? So can a commissar tell his squad that it's all in their heads? :)
The way we ended up house ruling it was that Stubborn allows the unit to ignore Weaken Resolve for morale tests, but not for pinning or anything else they might be called upon to use their Ld score for. Does this seem fair/correct?
This same issue came up in a game Saturday. The store I was at ruled that Weaken Resolve did not work on units with Stubborn USR, at all. I still have not had the chance to look it up. But, I think they are probably right on this.
mkerr
08-07-2009, 10:49 PM
Weaken Resolve doesn't affect Stubborn units.
-- MKerr
crazyredpraetorian
08-07-2009, 11:04 PM
Weaken Resolve doesn't affect Stubborn units.
-- MKerr
That's what I thought......but, I was hoping I was wrong.:p
Nabterayl
08-07-2009, 11:06 PM
Be very interested to hear what other folks here have to say about this, but my read of the RAW is that you got it right for Stubborn, and Books of St. Lucius are a little more powerful. For everybody's reference, Weaken Resolve says:
The psykers reach out with their minds, evoking irrational terror in the minds of their foes.
This power is used during the Psyker Battle Squad's Shooting phase. Choose one enemy unit within 36" and line of sight of the Psyker Battle Squad. For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilising the power (to a minimum of 2).
Stubborn says:
Stubborn resistance against impossible odds is a feature of some races. When taking Morale tests, stubborn units always ignore any negative Leadership modifiers. Independent characters that are stubborn confer the ability onto any unit that they join.
And the Book of St. Lucius says:
This great tome contains the many inspirational writings and sermons of St. Lucius of Agatha. Any friendly unit with a model within 6" may use the bearer's unmodified Leadership value for any Morale checks or Pinning tests it is required to take.
The question, as I see it, is whether Weaken Resolve "modifies" the target unit's Leadership, or does something else to it. My opinion (though again I'm interested in others') is that it modifies the unit's Leadership, and thus is affected by Stubborn and Books of St. Lucius, for the following reasons:
1. My personal feeling is that since "modify" is nowhere defined in the rulebook, it should be given its ordinary meaning. Weaken Resolve causes a unit to be treated as temporarily having a Leadership value other than what is printed in its codex. This seems to me, on a plain reading, to be a modification (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/modify) ("to change somewhat the form or qualities of; alter partially; amend").
2. Some pieces of wargear "modify" a characteristic for the entire game, yet are still classified as modifiers. A scorpion chainsword's +1S, for instance, affects the model for the entire game, and yet is still classified as a modification (p. 7). On the Leadership front, a Book of St. Lucius pretty clearly would not apply to a Holy Icon, which adds 1 to a unit's Leadership value for purposes of Pinning and Morale tests. Surely the +1Ld from the Holy Icon would be considered a Leadership modification, yes? Yet a Holy Icon potentially affects a unit (e.g., a Retributor squad that spends the game next to its Rhino or Immolator) for the entire game, not just a single turn. A fortiori, Weaken Resolve, which lasts for only a turn, is a modification as well.
3. The most tempting alternative reading I can think of is to say that Weaken Resolve somehow temporarily overwrites the unit's printed Leadership, and thus does not modify it because the rule instructs us to pretend, for a turn, that the codex says something other than what our eyes tell us it says. I see no reason why the power couldn't say this, but it would have to spell it out pretty explicitly, since unless you word this pretty precisely (or else make a defined-term distinction between "modifying" and "overwriting") most ways of achieving this effect boil down, in plain language terms, to modifying.
EDIT:
Weaken Resolve does work on Stubborn units, and on units with a Book of St. Lucius, just not all the way. Stubborn doesn't help with Pinning, for instance, or with psychic tests (if there were such a thing as a Stubborn psyker). Weaken Resolve would still affect a Stubborn unit in those circumstances. Similarly, a Book of St. Lucius only protects a unit from Weaken Resolve with regard to Morale and Pinning tests; any other sort of Leadership test would still be affected by Weaken Resolve.
BuFFo
08-08-2009, 01:03 AM
The fact that GW doesn't 'define' the word modify in no ways gives you the right to bend the rules.
We all know as English speaking people what the word modify means.
Having your Leadership reduced is what the word 'modified' means. The LD was modified, and Stubborn disallows this.
If a Stubborn unit has a LD of 8, then the LD stays 8 for the entire game. Anything done to the units LD modifies it.
But going by your logic, GW doesn't define "the", "a", "Wolf", "and", "," and "Define"... So unless GW defines a word, the word can mean whatever we want it to mean.
No, Weaken Resolve does not work on Stubborn units at all.
Unless the LD is "positively modified"... :)
StrikerFox
08-08-2009, 05:16 AM
i see where you are goin with this, but i dont agree with you fully. Stubborn does state that when taking MORALE tests, it ignores any leadership modifiers..
so anytime you have to take a MORALE check/test, stubborn comes into play. so for example, casualties (losing more than 25%, tank shock, losing an assault, and pinning checks.
in some of these, you will get - ld modifiers. with stubborn, they dont matter. so in the case of weaken resolve, it doesnt really do anything to a stubborn unit, unless it has to take say, a regroup test. makes sense to me, as they failed their morale check (even while stubborn) and are fleeing, but because they now have been weakened, its even harder for them to regroup.
now as for the book, it would SEEM that it again, covers any morale and pinning.. but not regrouping. so again, if you failed, you would still have weaken resolve on your guys.
other things i find interesting on stubborn is markerlights.. (dont have the codex on me) but, if im not mistaken, it also lowers ld by # of sucessful markerlight hits if you so chose, correct? i would think it doesnt effect stubborn units either..
but thats my interpritation.. :P
Nabterayl
08-08-2009, 09:25 AM
Having your Leadership reduced is what the word 'modified' means. The LD was modified, and Stubborn disallows this.
Wait, where are you getting that? Stubborn doesn't say "Stubborn units always ignore negative Leadership modifiers." It says "When taking Morale tests, Stubborn units always ignore negative Leadership modifiers" (emphasis added). You read those two statements as equivalent?
Madigan
08-10-2009, 07:43 AM
That's right. Stubborn only affects "Morale Tests". Pinning checks, Psychic Tests, and general Leadership tests are not affected by Stubborn.
Thus a Stubborn unit suffering from Weaken Resolve would still use their reduced leadership value for taking a Pinning Test, or if they were subject to some of the older Psychic powers that still have units take "Leadership Tests" (like some of the DH and WH physics powers). Since Weaken Resolve only lasts til the end of the player's turn that used it though, I can only think of one situation in which an enemy might have to take a Psychic test or Leadership test in their opponent's turn, and that's due to Hammer of the Witches.
Just one more reason why PBS + Inquisitorial Allies = Win.
BuFFo
08-10-2009, 09:52 AM
Wait, where are you getting that? Stubborn doesn't say "Stubborn units always ignore negative Leadership modifiers." It says "When taking Morale tests, Stubborn units always ignore negative Leadership modifiers" (emphasis added). You read those two statements as equivalent?
I know this, and sorry for my poorly written response.
I am assuming that since this thread is asking about Stubborn, that we weren't talking about pinning or psychic tests, etc.... only instances where Stubborn is in effect.
Sorry for my confusion.
Weaken Resolve doesn't affect Stubborn units.
-- MKerr
I disagree, due to the fact that Stubborn does not offer protection against all Leadership modifiers. It protects specifically against Leadership modifiers when taking Morale Checks. If the unit is question is forced to take a Morale Check, it will of course ignore the penalty. The same is not true of Pinning Checks. Why? Because Stubborn does not cause you to ignore leadership modifiers when taking Pinning Checks.
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