crimson fists army list problems!

[bad moon on afull moon]

ok this is my 2000pt list for my crimson fist list which isnt going well at all. anyone got any idea how to improve the list.

pedro kantor
librarian w/ epistolary, jump pack, plasma pistol-usually run with gate of infinity and vortex of doom

10 sternguard w/powerfist
10 sternguard w/powerfist
ven. dreadnaught w/ extra armour

10 tactical marines w/powerfist, plasma gun, plasma cannon
10 tactical marines w/ powerfist, plasma gun, plasmacannon

5 vanguard w/ thunderhammer, powerswords, stormshields, jump packs

predator w/ lascannons, hunterkiller

the vanguard are a major point sink and really bad IMO so theyre defiately being swapped for something

other than that the army just seems to fail horribly practically all the time

[Dralafi]

How do they fail you? How do you usually use them? Do you play a wide variety of races/armies and if yes do you feel you deal with some better then others?

I've used Pedro and sternguad type lists before and have had pretty good successrate with them. My army on the otherhand, didn't contain any vanguards, but all had transport of some sort.

[bad moon on afull moon]

i usually sit back with them as the two tacticals are only really effective if in cover, i usually sit them in a building or on an objective, the sternguard are pretty effective, especially with pedro, i usually use them to back up the tacticals on the objectives or sit them nearby. the pradators pretty good sometime.

i think my main problem is probably the single slow dread and definatly the librarian and vanguard who ake up 500pts on their own. i just dont know what to change them to

[Dralafi]

Alright. The way I've used them isn't entirely too disimilar from you. In my pedro army, each sternguad unit has 2 combi meltas and 2 combiflamers as well as a drop pod. One of those pods have a locatorbeacon. Instead of a Ven. Dread I have Ironclad with 2 flamers and assault launcher. Depending on the opponent I drop either both stern (pedro in one of them) or 1 stern 1 ironclad. If the ironclad is exposed, I smokelaunch him.

The share amount of flamers those 2/3 units produce is staggering for a horde army, especially if you combatsquad them. The melta shots are great for catching vehicles unaware and the ironclad is juts mean. Best part about it all is the ironclad has the same cost as your ven, granted, no reroll but av 13 is quite intimidating on a walker.

Do you fight alof of vehicles? I feel you're a bit light on AT guns, the only reliable one is the pred. Combi melta is most definately a good addition, what about dropping one plasma cannon in the tac squads and take a "cheaper" h.weapon and upgrade the other plasmac to a lascannon?

I run a full drop pod list, and being "fluffy" pre heresy I don't use librarians, so I can't advice one way or another there. I've come across alot of psykers but I've never wished I had a psycic hood to protect myself against it or anything like that. I suppose dropping the jumppack and drop in with a sternguard isn't too far off. Possibely taking a chap instead of a libby and add his power to one sternguard. Nasty with pedro nearby with all them attacks.

[bad moon on afull moon]

i might try a second venerable dred, swap out the vanguard to an assault squad with melta or flamer+powerfist, keeping the libby cos he can be quite effective. might try the combi weapon idea for the stern too. on a side note to give an idea of usefulness of libbys, me and 3 other friends had a friendly 4 way 500pt game, i used the vanguard and libby( using gate of infinty and vortex), fighting against dark angels with a dred, a biker horde with a warboss, and a big mob or random orks.
i put everything in reserve and i had the first turn, everyone else started moving into better cover and taking pot shots at each other. on my second turn my vanguard turned up with heroic intervention but scattered towards one of the big biker mobs so chose to charge them, they didnt last a turn. when my libby arrived he spent the rest of the game flyinf near and enemy, vortexing them then using gate to teleport away, he killed about 50 orks on his own and the only wound he took was from a double 1 on a psychic test.

[Dralafi]

that is nice, on the libby that is. I like sternguard and would never consider getting rid of their boltguns, but combi adds that little they lack, sure it's only oneshot, but against most things that's all you need. Let us know how you do in the next game.

[bad moon on afull moon]

will do dralafi, one last question, is it worth using a drop pods for the dreds and sterns or just dreds. and thanks for the advice

[Grabula]

Too much elite, not enough of anything else.

I realize Pedro works well with Sternguard but two squads of them is a lot of points, add a venerable dread and vanguard and I don't think you have enough of anything in a 2K list to be all that successful.

I'd consider losing the predator and vanguard. Try to get some assault in there somewhere. 3 Tactical Squads never hurt anyone either. Remember, Quantity has a quality all its own.

I'm playing Crimson Fists as a theme army. I started the game with RT and the CF on the cover sold me instantly. I'm not tied to using Pedro in every game for one thing. He's nice but I'm not sold on him being worth his points in all honesty. I'll use him on occasion because he looks fun, and I might throw in a unit of Sternguard to help out but I'm going to stick with one unit. Again, I don't think they're worth the points you put into them to have two units with a character who also isn't necessarily worth the points you put into him.

That said, Pedro + Sternguard for the center piece of my army. I haven't decided yet how big the sternguard will be but probably a unit of 10 to capitalize on Pedro.

Beyond that I'll fill in the holes with standard Space Marine options. Dread in drop pod and multimelta, at least 3 squads of Tac in rhinos and fill in the gaps with things like Dev squads, another dread, an assault squad and so on.

I'm firmly of the opinion that the strength of vanilla marines is in numbers. The more 3+ Sv, 4 stat line minis you can get on the table the better.

Also, I know how you feel about the librarian, I often run one in termie armor with a squad of termies backing him up and he's always been a game winner. However, I don't think I'd ever throw him in with Pedro and 2 Sternguard Squads. It's just a lot of points into too few units. Consider trying to play with one or the other.

[Dralafi]

being extremily biast on that, yes it is. With the libby you can spare yourself one pod though and just jump one stern around with him. As I said in the Drop Pod assault, if you use pods, make sure you have odd numbers to get the most squeeze out of the deployment. For example, if you have a pod for a dread and both stern guard, 2 strike first turn, one in reserve as normal, however if you give pods to the tactical squads, that allows you to strike both sterns and dread the first turn with two empty pods just hanging out to annoy when they arrive.

You complained about the slow nature of the dread, give him a pod and he wont be slow anymore, problem is. now he's all alone up in the enemy lines trying to inflict as much pain as possible before the opponent destroys him.

[bad moon on afull moon]

so the list will go something like this

pedro kantor

librarian w/ epistolary

10 sternguard w/ powerfist, 5 combi meltas, 5 combiflamers
drop pod w/ locator beacon, deathwind launcher

10 sternguard w/powerfist, 5 combimeltas, 5 combiflamers
drop pod w/ locator beacon, deathwind launcher

10 tactical marines w/ plasmagun, plasmacannon, powerfist

10 tactical marines w/ plasmagun, plasmacannon, powerfist

ven. dred w/ extra armour
drop pod w/ deathwind launcher

ven. dred w/ extra armour
drop pod w/ dearhwind launcher

1995pts

im going to have the sternguard pods drop onto objectives on the first turn or by tanks or hordes if its killpoints , with the tacticals sitting on objectives in my deployment zone or in cover, then have the dreds drop down behind my opponents lines on the second turn to hopefully force him to pull back some units to deal with them giving my tacticals and sterns some more turns of shooting

[whitestar333]

Are you sure that you're using Vortex of Doom correctly? It's a heavy weapon and if he's not in Terminator armor you can't be moving and using the power. That said, why not try some terminators instead of your vanguard vets?

[bad moon on afull moon]

oh yeh, that game was the first time id used vortex and yes i realised half way through the game, and iv got 10 termies, armed with chainfists and two with heavy flamers with a termie chaplain which i use in apocalypse games, other than that ill think ill stick with the list i came up with in my last post

[Sonofthelion]

I think you might have too many elite choices in that list but thats easy to fix you could swap your librarian for a master of the forge and move all your dreads to HS ;)

[doublek666]

If you're still reading, or care, I think you've got a fun list! You seem real confident about your tactical squads being in cover, I'd really advise at least give them some rhinos or drop pods maybe just give them plasma guns or flamers with missle launchers(very versatile). But really, two full Sternguard squads is alot in 2000 pts so sacrifice the Vanguard and Librarian for that set up. And get some shooty termintors, and they can deepstrike off your locator beacons, also some land speeders can be fun as well, deepstriking off the locator beacons and blasting away. A 10 man assault squad might perform better than the Vanguards, but I like Vanguards and I take them anyway, and Legion of the Damned as well! I love dreads of all kinds and two is always better than one. But they can get blasted easily. Take some cheaper safer stuff, and some of the cooll stuff as well, the lists you have so far are fragile and hard to win with, probably in your group as well. Of course, buying and painting all that stuff is another story!

[bad moon on afull moon]

yep still reading the thread now and again and after looking through the list and a little test play
i think i prefer a more defensive play with the fists so my list as it stands is now

pedro kantor

librarian w/ epistolary

10 tactical marines w/ plasma gun, plasma cannon, powerfist

10 tactical marines w/ plasma gun, plasma cannon, powerfist

10 sternguard w/ powerfist, 2 flamers

10 sternguard w/ powerfist, 2lascannons

predator w/ lascannons, hunterkiller

venerable dred w/ extra armour
drop pod w/ deathwind, locator beacon

venerable dred w/ extra armour
drop pod w/ deathwind, locator beacon

[Lord Azaghul]

yep still reading the thread now and again and after looking through the list and a little test play
i think i prefer a more defensive play with the fists so my list as it stands is now

pedro kantor

librarian w/ epistolary

10 tactical marines w/ plasma gun, plasma cannon, powerfist

10 tactical marines w/ plasma gun, plasma cannon, powerfist

10 sternguard w/ powerfist, 2 flamers

10 sternguard w/ powerfist, 2lascannons

predator w/ lascannons, hunterkiller

venerable dred w/ extra armour
drop pod w/ deathwind, locator beacon

venerable dred w/ extra armour
drop pod w/ deathwind, locator beacon


So I'm a little confused, what's with the locator beacons? And are you giving you stern guard and tact squads any sort of transports? Or did you just forget to list that?
Dropping the ven dred to just dreads frees up enough points to buy few more transports for you boys.

[bad moon on afull moon]

no transports for the sterns or tacticals as i like the defensive, almost last-standish feel to the army and the locator beacons home whichever dred comes in second turn, the sternguard with libby if they teleprt to support the dred as well as the 10 terminators when i add the extra 1000pts for apocalypse

[Dralafi]

Personally, giving the sternguard 2 lascannons is a waste of points in my opinion... Having checked the entry in the codex it's actually cheaper to take a 5 man sternguard unit with 2 lascannons then a devastetor 5 man unit with 2 lascannons. That leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Personally I don't believe in sternguard giving up their boltgun, they are outstanding for their costs and giving them lascannons negates alot of their mobility and adaptability. If you can use extra points, you can drop one of the locator beacons.

Something else just dawned on me, you've got 4 elite choices, which is fine for apocalypse but unusable for normal games.

[bad moon on afull moon]

oh yeah oops better change that list again :), about the lascannons, i tried out the list and i think i agree with u that its pointless

[Dralafi]

how did the game go? What race did you play?

[bad moon on afull moon]

i played against a BT army with a land raider with an emporers champion, helbrecht and grimaldus inside, a 10 man assault squad, dreadnaught, las pred, and 2 10 man squads, i got slaughtered in that game though in part to him being the luckiest person i have ever played against

[Eusebius Rex]

I don't think that will work either as you have 4 elite units (2x dreads and 2x Stern). Although the Sternguard are scoring, they are still not troop choices.

Incidentally, I've tried something similar with Sternguard and Dreads using the Master of the Forge (allowing dread population in the Support slots) with Pedro. it was ok.

My thought on Pedro and Sternguard is that they aren't being taken fully advantage of unless you can get Pedro over there where the sternguard are and seems to me that he'd be back with the largly immobile tac squads. I only say this because 10x sternguard with 4 attacks each (+1 if w/in 12" of Pedro) is pretty badass behind enemy lines via drop pod assault. I also tend to take only scouts and one tac squad or just 2x small combat squads as minimal troop choices with them as I am counting on the stern to score. If you do go the route of the MoF instead of the libriarian to keep your dreads then I recommend a Dev squad as they can be in terrain that your MoF bolsters, giving them a 3+ cover save to snip from with missle launchers.