Boyz will be Boyz

[Judge]

*Mock Battle Report further down.*

Simply put, I'm not entirely certain how you're supposed to beat Boyz en masse. With very much the effectiveness of Assault Marines, but costing only a fraction of the price, their vulnerabilities are largely covered by easy to enact special circumstances, and they can present much more of a challenge than you'd expect.

115 - Big Mek, Kustom Force Field, Power Klaw, 'Eavy Armor
85 - Warboss, Power Klaw
220 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw, Bosspole
220 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw, Bosspole
215 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw
215 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw
215 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw
215 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw

Boyz mobs are deadly because of a curious combination of excellent durability for cost and peculiar special rule manipulation. For the record, I have run 180+ model armies on a 6'x4' table, and they work quite well when you've the entirety of a 6' edge to deploy on, even with terrain covering 30% of it (not so well when you're running corner to corner).

The core of the army relies on a principle similar to the Necron Rez Orb style of "living wall" advance. Big Mek force fields give 5+ cover saves to any units within 6". Errata clarifies this to mean any unit with at least a single model within 6" of the Big Mek.

Deploy the mobs in three ranks each one to two models deep (varying based on terrain) with two side by side, each stretching outwards from center to their respective edges. The first rank has your Bosspoll squads, as they'll be taking the most immediate fire. The second rank has your independent characters - one in each squad - with the Big Mek very near the center (well within 6" of each squad). The third rank is comprised of squads that will maintain the majority of their fighting power, and push into the heart of the enemy. All models (save those wrapping around terrain) should be within 7" of your front lines. If the Big Mek or Warboss's squads come under serious fire, they can fall back to their third squads respectively during movement (switching from one rank to another).

Your Warboss is along for a Waaaagh! in Round 2 or 3 (Fast enemy assault armies like Blood Angels might land elements close enough to assault in the bottom of Round 1. Shooty enemies will probably stay near starting zones or fall back to delay hand to hand), depending on which round you can reach the enemy front en masse. Alternatively, you can replace him for cost with a Warphead, giving you a 1/3 chance of a Waaaagh! in any round (to include the first) if you're willing to risk a reroll, with a possibility of a nice auto-hitting Str 10 melta attack amongst other goodies (getting Line of Sight is a simple matter of leaving gaps in the first and second row just big enough for a Warphead to see a target).

Embedded Nobs are your method for dealing with vehicles. Charging, a Nob gets 4 Str 9 powerfist attacks against armour on the charging round. In a single round, this is often not enough to kill armour that's moved or walkers, but it will almost certainly cause lesser effects that will make things easier on subsequent rounds, or allow you to walk past and ignore the vehicles. Remember, against vehicles without weapon skills you have to charge every round to attack them. Embedded Nobs also give you a method of dealing with nasty special characters (ala Mephiston), and large mob sizes leave you fearless until over half the models are dead.

You'd think that with this many models jammed together it would be Template Heaven for kills, but, given the 5+ cover save, that's surprisingly not the case. Say you fire a Battle Cannon that hits 10 Orks? 1/6 odds of rolling 1s leaves 8.33 wounds, and the 5+ cover reduces this to 5.6 wounds total - quite manageable for a direct hit given 6 point wounds, and many large templates will deviate to hit fewer, even given such large mobz. Flamers, as someone noted, are an exception to this, but unless an enemy knows what's coming and specifically tailors his army to countering it, odds of enough flamers to effect the outcome are shockingly small.

Imperial Guard massed lasgun fire won't save Guardsmen. Bolter fire (to include massed Heavy Bolters) won't save Marines. Pulse Rifles won't even begin to save Tau (or Kroot), and Gauss weapons won't save Necrons. Tyranids are completely out to lunch. Feel free to run simple shooting comparisons yourself - say two rounds of normal fire and one round of rapid fire before assault to be generous, with the Orks running instead of shooting back.

Assault armies usually won't kill more than a quarter of the Orks before melee begins, shooty armies usually won't kill more than half, and once in combat, Boyz drag their betters down pound for pound like pirahna eating a lion. This includes assault squads you'd think would do better, like marine assault squads, Death Company, Terminators, Monstrous Creatures, at least one of the C'tan, and yes, Mephiston, but certainly includes weaker squads like Hormagaunts and Kroot as well. Eldrad Ulthran, even assuming only 6 normal Boyz could attack him at a time, would get spanked like a weak kitten.

Perhaps funniest of all, practically every squad is a scoring unit.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I've run preliminary numbers on a significant number of largely disfavorable scenarios, and it's surprising how well Orks come out. Absent a 100% flame tailored army (or maybe even with it), can anyone think of a good way to deal with this? If you know it's coming, perhaps you can run a tank army and simply outrange them the whole game (eldar falcons with 24" moves to break through lines that get too close), but what normal army's going to be prepared for this?


Boyz vs. Blood Angels Mock Battle Report

To be taken with a grain of salt, as odds and tactics can vary wildly (as I'll freely admit, though we'll surely see a few idiots point out the obvious anyway). Because there is truth behind numbers, however, a sample of how effective Boyz can be is more telling than your typical dismissive (numbertarded) blatherskeit or singular, often exceptional experiences.

I made a few assumptions regarding tactics and layout, and surely forget a few rules in the process of running the mock report (which relies on individual averages - the odds of actually seeing a battle run just like this are pretty far out, but deviation can occur either way). Quite a few assumptions favor the Blood Angels, though (especially to include no objectives to fight over). Primarily, I'm running this just to show how effective Boyz can be - not mass Ork mobs. This isn't a "lookit how cheap Gretchin are!" thread, nor is it a "I can't run numbers, so I'll make some claims I can't back up with averages, experience (how many people run or fight all Boyz armies?), or even an intelligent guess based on the slightest effort towards either!" thread. A simple numbers comparison will show you how well Boyz stand up to lasguns, bolters, pie plates, or an autonomous anarchist commune deriving its power from a mandate from the masses, so I won't draw things out unless you really, really need me to.

Please do tell me if you think I'm softballing the Blood Angels force.

250 - Mephiston
200 - 5 Sanguinary Guard
180 - Furiosa, frag cannon, Drop Pod w. Deathwind Launcher
180 - Furiosa, frag cannon, Drop Pod w. Deathwind Launcher
380 - 7 Death Company, Land Raider Redeemer
180 - Death Company Dreadnought, Drop Pod w. Deathwind Launcher
130 - 5 man Devastator Squad w. Rocket Launchers

115 - Big Mek, Kustom Force Field, Power Klaw, 'Eavy Armor
85 - Warboss, Power Klaw
220 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw, Bosspole
220 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw, Bosspole
215 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw
215 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw
215 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw
215 - 30 Ork Boyz (sluggas and CCWs), 1 Nob upgrade, Power Klaw

Turn 1, Round 1

Blood Angels get the first round.

Mephiston moves 11", hides in cover.
Sanguinary Guard moves 11", hides in cover.
Two Furiosas land on opposite flanks.
Frag Cannons each hit 14 Orks total. 10 dead Orks each.
Deathwind Launchers each hit 8 Orks. 4 dead Orks each.
Land Raider moves forward 6". Twin-linked assault cannons hit Orks. 2 dead Orks.
Devastator Squad fires blast templates. Each shot hits 3 (factoring in misses) Orks. 4 dead Orks.

Total Ork casualties: 34. Distributed: 13 dead from each front squad. 3 dead from each second squad. 1 dead from each 3rd squad.

Turn 1, Round 2

Ork first and second squads on each flank advance, running, pushing in towards center, gaining 8" towards center, 6" towards flanks. Ork third squads on each flank push towards Dreads for assault.
Ork third squads assault. 13 Boyz from each reach the Dreadnaughts - Nobs make it within 2". 4 Boyz from each flank Dreads to hit rear.
Dreads strike first. 3 attacks each. 1.67 dead Orks from each squad. Nobs attack. 4 attacks each. Each score .66 penetrating hits - .22 odds of dead Dread each. 4 Boyz on each attack rear armour. 4 attacks each. 1.33 glancing hits on each.
Squads pull in.

Total Ork casualties: 3.3 (37.3). Blood Angel Casualties: 1.33 penetrating hits, 2.66 glancing hits.

Turn 2, Round 1

Death Company Dreadnought delayed.
Mephiston moves forward 3", fires plasma pistol. .46 dead Orks.
Sanguinary Guard moves forward 3", fires Boltguns. 2.22 dead Orks.
Deathwind Launchers each hit 3 Orks. 1.33 dead Orks each.
Land Raider moves forward 6". Twin-linked assault cannons hit Orks. 2 dead Orks.
Devastator Squad fires blast templates. Each shot hits 3 (factoring in misses) Orks. 4 dead Orks.
Death Company assaults from Land Raider.
Mephiston and Sanguinary Guard assault.
Mephiston strikes first. 6 attacks. 4.44 dead Orks. Sanguinary Guard strikes second. 3.75 dead Orks. Nob attacks. 1.25 dead Sanguinary Guard.
Death Company strikes first. 10.37 dead Orks. Nob attacks. 1.25 dead Death Company.
Both Ork squads break. (1 Nob, 2 Boyz, 1 Nob 1 Boyz). Left to run off table edge. Blood Angels consolidate back.
Dreads strike first. 3 attacks each. 1.67 dead Orks from each squad. Nobs attack. 3 attacks each. Each score .25 penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread each.

Total Ork Casualties: 37.2 (74.5). Blood Angel Casualties: 1, .5 (1.83) penetrating hits, 0 (2.66) glancing hits.

Turn 2, Round 2

Ork second squads move forward and inward. Waaagh! Run, assault. Warboss and Big Mek join squad not fighting Mephiston for assault on Death Company.
17 Orks each squad reach melee to include Nobz (from middle) and ICs (from center).
Mephiston strikes first. 5 attacks. 3.7 dead Orks. Sanguinary Guard strikes simultaneously. 2 dead Orks. Nob strikes simultaneously. 1.67 dead Sanguinary Guard. 10 Orks strike. 40 attacks. 1.67 dead Sanguinary Guard. Orks are Fearless. 4.75 dead Orks.
Warboss strikes first. 5 attacks. 2.08 dead Death Company. Death Company strikes simultaneously. 3.33 dead Orks. Big Mek strikes simultaneously. 4 attacks. 1.67 dead Death Company. Nob strikes simultaneously. 4 attacks. 1.67 dead Death Company. 11 Boyz strike. 44 attacks. Last Death Company dies.
Warboss squad spreads out for consolidation.
Dreads strike first. 3 attacks each. 1.67 dead Orks from each squad. Nobs attack. 3 attacks each. Each score .25 penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread each.

Total Ork Casualties: 15.4 (89.9). Blood Angel Casualties: 10 (11), .5 (2.33) penetrating hits, 0 (2.66) glancing hits.

Turn 3, Round 1

Death Company Dreadnought lands near Warboss squad. Fires Storm Bolter and Meltagun. .81 dead Orks.
Deathwind Launcher hits 8 Orks. 3.55 dead Orks.
Devastator Squad fires blast templates. Each shot hits 2 (factoring in misses) Orks. 2.67 dead Orks.
Land Raider Tank Shocks Warboss squad, stopping in middle. Flames both sides. 6 Orks on each side hit. 10 dead Orks.
Orks take leadership test (Warboss). Pass.
Mephiston strikes first. 5 attacks. 3.7 dead Orks. Sanguinary Guard strikes. 2 attacks. .5 dead Orks. Nob strikes. 2 attacks. Sanguinary Guard dead. 16 Boyz strike. 48 attacks. .67 wounds to Mephiston.
Dreads strike first. 3 attacks each. 1.67 dead Orks from each squad. Nobs attack. 3 attacks each. Each score .25 penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread each.

Total Ork Casualties: 24.6 (114.5). Blood Angel Casualties: 1 (12), .5 (2.83) penetrating hits, 0 (2.66) glancing hits.

Turn 3, Round 2

Warboss squad moves into rough coherency, charges Land Raider.
Warboss strikes. 5 attacks. 1.25 penetrating hits. .42 odds of dead Land Raider. Big Mek strikes. 4 attacks. .66 penetrating hits. .22 (.64) odds of dead Land Raider. Nob strikes. 4 attacks. .66 penetrating hits. .22 (.86) odds of dead Land Raider. Dead Land Raider. 50/50 odds of explosion killing 1.8 Orks.
Mephiston strikes first. 5 attacks. 3.7 dead Orks. Nob strikes. 3 attacks. 1.25 (1.92) wounds. 8 Boyz strike. 24 attacks. .33 (2.25) wounds. Ork pass leadership.
Dreads strike first. 3 attacks each. 1.67 dead Orks from each squad. Nobs attack. 3 attacks each. Each score .25 penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread each. 1 Dreadnought dies. Orks consolidate towards center.

Total Ork Casualties: 7.9 (122.4). Blood Angel Casualties: 0 (12), 1 Land Raider Redeemer, 1 Furiosa Dreadnought.

Turn 4, Round 1

Death Company Dreadnought approaches Warlord Squad. Fires Storm Bolter and Meltagun. .81 dead Orks.
Deathwind Launchers hit 5 Orks. 2.4 dead Orks.
Devastator Squad fires blast templates. Each shot hits 2.5 (factoring in misses). 3.33 dead Orks.
Warboss squad (Now Warboss, Big Mek and lone Nob) take Leadership test. Pass.
Death Company Dreadnought charges Warboss squad.
Death Company Dreadnought strikes. Assigns all hits to Warboss. 5 attacks. Warboss dies. (Not assigning hits, or splitting them, leave strong odds of Warboss surviving. If hits not assigned, Big Mek and Nob would die, Warboss would survive to attack rear armour. Warboss alone would cause more penetrating hits, and be less vulnerable to Devastators). Big Mek and Nob strike rear armour. 2 penetrating hits. Death Company Dreadnought destroyed. Big Mek and Nob split up, consolidate behind Land Raider wreckage.
Mephiston strikes first. 5 attacks. 3.7 dead Orks. Nob strikes. 3 attacks. 1.25 (3.5) wounds. 4 Boyz strike. 12 attacks. .16 (3.66) wounds. Orks fail leadership. Retreat.
Dreadnought strikes. 3 attacks. 1.67 dead Orks. Nob attacks. 3 attacks. .25 (.62)penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread.

Total Ork Casualties: 16.9 (139.3), 1 Warboss. Blood Angel Casualties: 0 (12), .25 (.62) penetrating hits, 1 dead Death Company Dreadnought.

Turn 4, Round 2

Ork squad that killed Furiosa moves towards Mephiston. Shoots 20 shoota shots. .19 (3.85) wounds. Assaults Mephiston.
Big Mek and Nob move around to assault Drop Pod on far side from Devastator squad. Assault.
Mephiston strikes first. 5 attacks. 3.7 dead Orks. Nob strikes. 3 attacks. 1.25 (5.10) wounds. Mephiston dies. Squad sweeping advances towards cover/Big Mek and spreads out.
Big Mek and Nob strike. 8 attacks. 4 penetrating hits. Drop pod destroyed. .67 odds of blowing up d6 inches causing .22 wounds.
Dreadnought strikes. 3 attacks. 1.67 dead Orks. Nob attacks. 3 attacks. .25 (.87) penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread.

Total Ork Casualties: 5.5 (144.8). Blood Angel Casualties: 0 (12), 1 dead Mephiston, .25 (.87) penetrating hits, 1 dead Drop Pod.

Turn 5, Round 1

Deathwind Launcher hits 3 Orks. 1.33 dead Orks.
Devastator Squad fires blast templates. Each shot hits 2.5 (factoring in misses). 3.33 dead Orks.
Dreadnought strikes. 3 attacks. 1.67 dead Orks. Nob attacks. 3 attacks. .25 (1.12) penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread.

Total Ork Casualties: 6.3 (151.1). Blood Angel Casualties: 0 (12), .25 (1.12) penetrating hits.

Turn 5, Round 2

Ork Big Mek switches to larger surviving squad. Moves and runs towards Devastator squad.
Lone Nob works his way towards lone Drop Pod, staying out of its Line of Sight in terrain.
Dreadnought strikes. 3 attacks. 1.67 dead Orks. Nob attacks. 3 attacks. .25 (1.37) penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread.

Total Ork Casualties: 1.67 (152.8). Total Blood Angel Casualties: 0 (12), .25 (1.37) penetrating hits.

1/3 odds Game Ends. Game continues.

Turn 6, Round 1

Devastator Squad fires blast templates. Each shot hits 2 (factoring in misses). 1.78 dead Orks. Orks pass leadership test.
Dreadnought strikes. 3 attacks. 1.67 dead Orks. Nob attacks. 3 attacks. .25 (1.62) penetrating hits. .08 odds of dead Dread.

Total Ork Casualties: 3.4 (156.2). Total Blood Angel Casualties: 0 (12), .25 (1.62) penetrating hits.

Turn 6, Round 2

Big Mek squad moves towards Devastator squad. Shoots 11 slugga shots. .6 dead Devastators. Assaults.
Nob moves towards Drop Pod, staying out of its Line of Sight in terrain. Runs.
Devastators strike simultaneously. 5 attacks. 1 dead Ork. Big Mek and Nob strike. 8 attacks. 3.3 dead Devastators. 8 Boyz strike. 32 attacks. 2.67 wounds (1.1 dead Devastators). Devastators dead. Big Mek sweeping advances back south towards surviving Dreadnought.
Dreadnought strikes. 3 attacks. 1.67 dead Orks. Nob attacks. 3 attacks. .25 (1.87) penetrating hits.

Total Ork Casualties: 2.67 (159). Total Blood Angel Casualties: 5 (17), .25 (1.87) penetrating hits.

1/2 (67%) odds Game Ends. Game Ends.

Odds are over 62% that the final Furiosa would be dead.

Survivors:

Orks: 3 squads (3 Nobz, 18 Boyz), Big Mek.
Blood Angels: 2 Drop Pods.



1:13,.46,2.22,1.33,4.44,3.75 (break)
2:13,2,4,1.33,10.37 (break)
3:3,3.7,2,4.75,3.7,.5,3.7,3.7 (break)
4:3,3.33,.81,3.55,2.67,10,.9,.81,1.2,3.33, (Nob left)
5:1,1.67,1.67,1.67,1.67,1.67,1.67,1.67,1.67, 1.67,1.67 (12.3 left)
6:1,1.67,1.67,1.67,1.67,1.67,1.2,3.7,1.33,3.33,1.7 8, 1 (8.6 left + Big Mek)


I'm not saying that Boyz will always win like this (though how many other armies can field nothing but massive squads of scoring units and stand a chance at victory?), even though they did perform pretty well against templates (key being max-sized squads to wound soak along with staying in Mek range whenever possible - don't even start rolling for leadership until 2/3rds of the squad's dusted). I am saying that Boyz are pretty badass, and that any game with objectives is going to force a confrontation sooner than any shooty army's going to want one.

My poor, poor Necrons only have Monoliths and Nightbringer's special abilities going for them (although note that these models don't help your Phase Out count any). Anything else they've got will get steamrolled by a green tide of averages. What on earth do Eldar have coming?

[DarkLink]

I played a game with my 1000pt list (2 Land Raiders, 2 6 man GK squads with 2 Incinerators each, and a Brother Captain with a psycannon) against an ork army with 101 models. I won. It was awesome. I was outnumbered nearly 7to 1.

Anyways, in the whole game my opponent only managed to kill one Land Raider, via a biker Warboss. The unit inside promptly wiped the table with the squad that tried to block the Land Raider exits. At the end of the game, I had one Land Raider and my Brother Captain, and he had the remains of a single squad of boyz.

[Sir Biscuit]

Well, first, no stat goes above ten, so you still have the DOOM to worry about. Though given your number of bodies, less so than a lot of other people.

Second, this kind of army is actually very, very easy to deal with. 6 30 man boyz squads takes up a LOT of room, and they don't move terribly fast. That means that they either have to deploy across a large area of their deployment zone, or they have to hold units in reserve. Neither are a great option for this type of army. In addition, how exactly were you planning on getting all six units under one KFF? Two, three max. The rest suffer the wrath of templates.

Since they are either deploying all across the field, or holding guys in reserve, and none of them are mounted, it means that a refused flank is ESPECIALLY effective. No opponent in their right mind would deploy spread out across their deployment zone and engage units one-on-one.

You may also want to run some numbers on how good those powerclaws actually are at killing mech. A power claw has 4 S9 attacks on the charge, which means you might get one pen on a vehicle moving over 6". If it moves less, you might get two, but that hardly guarantees a kill. Against anything that moves over 6" they really suffer. Land speeders are doubly good here, as they can move 12" and fire a heavy flamer and also jump in front of squads to block movement and deny assaults. Speaking of blocking assaults and movement, empty transports can do the same thing. Also, what does this list do if your opponent takes even a single land raider? One warboss is not a great answer.

Given the deployment restrictions and the slower speed of an unmechanized force, the important question is not "what can take 6 boyz squads at a time?" but rather, "what can take a boys squad, six times in a row?" The answer to that is, well, most armies in the game.

While a 30 man boys squad appears good on paper and in labs, on the tabletop they're not nearly so scary. There's a reason that Green Tide isn't winning any tourneys, and it's not because no one's thought about it or tried it.

[DarkLink]

Right, the biggest weakness of the list is the inability to deal with mech very well.

The big thing to ensure against orks is to avoid getting charged. Use transports to wall off a unit, both to clump them up and to avoid a counter charge, then flamer it to death. Rinse and repeat.

[plasticaddict]

I'veplayed against this type of list many times. It's a great list fluff wise and if you are facing an army that is kitted out to kill lots of mech it can hold it's own, but aginst a well rounded list your opponent will chew you up. It's a fun list to play with and against but it's just not very effective.

[Judge]

Biscuit, if you don't even know how to get a single model each from six squads within 6" of a single model, then please don't bother commenting anymore. Your claimed inability to place or manage models over a full six foot table edge might describe a unique incapacity you suffer from, but more probably indicates that you've never tried. As for numbers, I've run plenty. Let's see you run some. "Might" is not a result on the vehicle damage table. More than anything else, site your reference for claiming that "no stat goes above ten," as if it's in the main rulebook or an errata and you can prove as much, I'll have a correction to make, rendering your post useful for something.

Dark, beating an Ork fielding 101 models doesn't mean anything particularly. You can field 120 Gretchin for 480 points, and they aren't the same thing at all. Based on your stated experience, I'd think I was in trouble for not having a Warboss on a bike! I'm specifically referring to melee configured Boyz with embedded powerfists (Klaws) and universal 5+ cover. List the configuration for your "unit in the Land Raider" and I'll show you how the math plays out.

plastic, put up or shut up.

[Sam]

p. 6 of the BRB: "However no modifier may raise any characteristic above 10 or lower it below 0."

p. 36 of the BRB: "To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their Initiative value lower to 1 when attacking, regardless of other Initiative modifiers."

So yeah, no stat can go above 10, and the KFF does not help you in assault. The "Assaulting Through Cover" portion of the rule book is referring to assaulting through difficult and dangerous terrain, not assaulting units that have a cover save.

[Sir Biscuit]

Getting a single model from each squad within six isn't hard, no, but it means that you have to keep all your squads, which in this case means the entire army, in one gigantic massed ball. If you think that isn't an enormous tactical mistake, then you need to spend less time on the calculator and more on the tabletop. Assuming you can keep at least one guy from every unit in the army in that 6" radius is ****ing absurd, it's like a blood angels player claiming that a single Sanguinary Priest is enough to guarantee the entire army FNP and FC.

A VERY common tactic for shooty armies is to split into two forces and deploy on opposite sides. What happens then? Suddenly the giant death star is a lot less threatening. A smart opponent will give you first turn, (basically forcing you to deploy in the center) guaranteeing that he can deploy as far away from you as possible, and split his forces as needed. Then it takes you a minimum 3 turns to get to the enemy. (9.5" move and run for the first two turns, and 15.5" WAAGGHH on the third.) Even if we assume the opponent is not smart enough to movement and charge block, and that they simply stay in their transports, that's another turn spent tankbusting. 4 turns of shooting at Orks may not be able to kill all 180 of them, but it can certainly whittle them down to a manageable size. After that, they assault the front line of stuff, (opponents choice!) and then get shot again. Or assaulted depending on how many exist at that point.

Not to mention the amount of units that you simply don't have an answer to. How about dreadnoughts, especially those fancy new Furioso Dreads that everyone's suddenly so fond of? Your only way to kill them is to wait until your powerfist eventually cracks that AV13. Sure, you'll probably do it eventually, and before you run out of boys, but how much time will you lose doing it? Walkers are common, and show up a lot. IG have armored sentinels, Chaos has Defilers, and every marine list has dreads, and none of these are uncommon. Warboss isn't a good solution either- most dreads will be able to instant kill him and pick him out due to his IC status. And of course, what is the answer to the ever-popular land raider?

Even without any common counter units showing up, what do you do in objective missions? In Capture & Control, you have to leave one of your boys mobs behind. That's not too bad. But in Sieze Ground you have potentially five objectives to fight for, and then you can either stay in your death star or split up and eat dirt. There's not a lot of good options for you there.

"Da Green Tide" is not really that uncommon of an army build. It's the first build everyone thinks of when they see how cheap boyz are. It was the default list people were using when 4th turned into 5th. It's not a particularly good one, for the same reason that taking 30 TH/SS Terminators doesn't make for a good build: they're durable, numerous, kick *** in melee, but at the end of they day they're slow, have to melee to kill ANYTHING, are predictable, and get their day ruined by armies that happened to bring a common counter. (Bloodletters, Null Zone Librarians, a whole bunch of lasguns, etc.)

Ork boys are not a bad unit. However, a clustered, one-dimensional, mono-directional, all-infantry, all melee army IS bad... in fact it's close to the worst list (from a tactical standpoint) that one could build.

[Judge]

Thanks for the clarification, Sam - changing the original post.

Biscuit, did you see how Sam did that just now? That's how you make a point. That large blarg of blatherskeit you threw up just now when I asked for numbers would fall under the heading of "please don't bother commenting anymore," so thanks for wasting your own time.

[navajas]

Judge, you're posting like such an +++DELETED BY THE INQUISITION+++ it's hard to come to your support.

I've played massive Ork hordes for a long time. Math on them is great. I know this. I have a lengthy background in probability and statistics. One thing I learned when running my numbers, which you didn't even mention, is that shootaz are far better, if shot only one time, than the extra attack from sluggaz. Every time you shoot them your marginal gain goes up. This is significant. Ork hordes with shootaz out shoot most armies.

If shootaz cost an extra point, as I think they probably should, they'd still be better. They more than double your options, and significantly increase the E(x) of kills against all targets. It is a complete no brainer at a free swap for foot sloggers. MAYBE if you're mounted would you take choppaz, since you could conceivably not fire the shootaz, but only maybe.

Next, every single point made above is perfectly valid, and by dismissing them offhand, you are not only acting like a cliche'+++DELETED BY THE INQUISITION+++ , but denying yourself useful information. Mech really IS a huge problem with this list. You will find it +++DELETED BY THE INQUISITION+++ hard to get those charges you are relying on unless your opponent is asleep. You are right, you have less to fear from a few blasts than most would assume, but dismissing those flamer templates is not a good idea.

You ARE SLOW, Waaaagh! regardless. When bunched like this you are only as fast as your front rank. If EITHER ONE of them screws their run roll your whole army suffers. In the first two turns, while all huddled around that Mek, if you roll a single run spot of 3 or less (the probability of which is around .95) you've just lost a turn. God help you if you roll two or more those.

Monsters and dreadnaughts can basically neutralize an entire squad on a one for one basis. Your Nobs will need AT LEAST 4s to glance on hits, and that's often not enough to end a fight. If it's venerable, write it off: You're not killing it. Against wraith lords you'll need 6s. That's not happening any time soon. Adding in getting shot up on the way in, losing whole a quarter or more of your army to a walker/monster or two hurts like hell. This happens, don't dismiss it. It's a brutal reality to watch a whole mob neutered for turn after turn by a single dread, him squishing one or two, while your claw goes tinkle tinkle on its hide.

There's just a lot more to this army than math, especially since EVERYTHING IN THE WHOLE F'ING GAME is now mounted. Yes, I run a massive green horde, but it has a few trukks in it. A few trukks cost less than 100 points and makes your army about 5x better. You still have massive numbers in your favor, but you have some mobility. Seriously, this game is mech. I hate it, I think it's god damned stupid how little transports cost for how much better they instantly make the unit inside it, but that's the game. It's not our fault, but you can't ignore it.

[Sir Biscuit]

A real life example taken from Luttwak's excellent book, Strategy (http://www.amazon.com/Strategy-Logic-Peace-Revised-Enlarged/dp/0674007034/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272909920&sr=8-1):

When the first anti-tank launchers came out, people were convinced that the age of the tank was over. After accounting for distance variations and weapon capabilities, it was determined that 2.5 anti-tank teams was all that is required to kill a tank. Why spend millions per tank, then, when a few launcher with price tags in the thousands could easily destroy them?

The answer's pretty obvious for everyone who actually knew anything about combat. The truth was, those teams could only achieve that kill ratio when they were fighting on a featureless plain, absent terrain, weather, and assuming everyone was fearless. In actual combat, the launchers were all but useless, included to boost moral. After all, who's going to stand up in the middle of the artillery that usually precedes tanks, aim through the smoke and dust, wait until the tank is within range, (and has been firing its machine-guns this whole time,) carefully aim, and fire? It's not very likely, and so the tank remains a vital part of military forces today.

You have the same problem here. You are assuming a featureless plain and that the enemy will not react in an effective way against your forces. So yes, the math comes out strong, but you are ignoring several vital elements in this puzzle.

So okay, let's look at some numbers. In fact, let's apply some to that lots-o-lines formation you are so proud of.

First, just how wide is this formation? Let's assume that each Ork is 1.5 inches from the one next to him. This allows you to spread out across the table, and really minimize what blast weapons can do to you. That means 28 gaps between orks, or 42". Also, we need to keep in mind that each orks base is 1", so that's another 30". Hey, that brings us to an even six feet! If you deploy 1" apart it's 58", and .5" it's 44". Big no matter what you do.

Second, let's note that generally the army can only move as quickly as it's front rank. It's potentially possible that the second rank could leapfrog the first, but the third row on back are unlikely to be able to achieve the same feat. That means, when you hit difficult terrain, (and you WILL, you are 44" to 72" wide,) you will be moving at the rate that the front rank rolls. Bummer, slows you down a bit. A bad run roll screws you even more.

Even worse, what happens when there is impassable terrain in your way? (And it will be, you are WIDE) You have an illusion of a decision: either split your forces, losing a bunch of them the KFF bonus, or bunch up to one side to pass by. Either way, you end up losing a turn, maybe more, of movement. A smart opponent can actually force this issue, wither by moving a skimmer right in front of the direct center of the line, or landing an empty drop-pod there.

Though actually, the biggest weakness of the line is not how incredibly unwieldy it is, but rather what the opponent can do to it. Two words: Tank. Shock. Pg 68 of the BRB:

"If some enemy models would end up underneath the vehicle when it reaches its final position, (it makes no difference whether the unit is falling back or not), these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between them and the vehicle and maintaining unit coherency."

This creates a conundrum, given your line. Lets say a tank shocks the middle of it, (or rally any point on the line that's not near the end.) A rhino, the least threatening and smallest vehicle that can possibly tank shock you, is 3"x4.5", which gives it an effective 5"x6.5" tank-shock footprint. Wow, that can easily hit at least three of your lines... but then what happens? We know that you can't possibly stay in coherency with that tank in the way, so you have to move models. But even if you do move them, you can't stay in coherency and still avoid the tank.

So, we look up compulsory movement, pg 11 of the BRB... hmm, it just says that it will be discussed later, and then it never brings it up again. So, what you do in this exact situation is up to you and your opponent, but regardless of what you agree on it's not going to be pretty for your line. Either allow an exception to move out of coherency and lose movement next turn regaining it, or collapse the line to the point where they are clustered but, yes, in coherency.

Yes, you can death or glory. What are the chances you will stop the rhino?
You get one S8 hit from the power klaw against the front AV11. So...
Glance: 1/6*1/3=1/18
+Pen: 1/3*2/3=2/9
So total, 2/9. Not great, and if you fail you lose the Nob. So you'll probably just not oppose the tank shock. Chances get much, much worse when anything with a front armor over 11 shocks you. (Like a chimera, another common transport.)

More numbers? Well, how about you don't need to kill 180 orks, you need to kill 144. Why 144? Because that's 24 per squad. After that, they are taking moral tests and failing on 7's. Remember, they aren't space marines, and they aren't true fearless, and once they start running they will never, ever stop. Or if you hit that number in CC, hey, here comes a sweeping advance! Actually, in close combat, as soon as the unit dips below ten a sweeping advance is likely to occur. (Unless you are fighting very weak units, orks will tend to lose more wounds in combat.)

Math is all well and good, but the reality is that you are not fighting on an empty plain against an opponent who will sit still and take it. Play a few real games and the things I'm saying will suddenly make a lot of sense.

EDIT: Thanks navajas, it's good to have an actual green tide player in here. If I may ask, what kind of formations do you find to be most effective for your boys?

[Judge]

navajas, you're not exactly the sort I'd want support from.

Biscuit, your first two posts were a waste of time, so why would I bother to read your third? Thanks, and have a nice day.

[McMurdoc]

Want to kill mech with this list ? No problem, if you change 1 thing...

For every 10 boyz you can take a rokkit launcha. Okay, it costs some points, so you'll have less bodies and their BS sucks, but imagine the face of your opponent when he realizes he has a regular cloud of rokkits flying in his direction...

Tried and tested, much to the dismay of my regular opponent. Nowadays, if I even mention this list, he immediately sets of to look for his templates, much to my dismay :D

[Judge]

Orks can certainly have a lot of Rokkits on the cheap, Murdoc, and I've used them myself in a number of situations where shootiness is called for. The list posted is a direct assault army, though, with no real time for shooting since they need to run instead. Have you tried Deff Koptas?

[navajas]

navajas, you're not exactly the sort I'd want support from. Feel free to crawl in a hole and smell yourself.

Biscuit, your first two posts were a waste of time, so why would I bother to read your third? Thanks, and have a nice day.

Hahaha! At this point I honestly can't tell if you're role playing this cliche' or are simply its archetype. Whatever the case, you are exactly the kind of person I'd expect to NOT want the advice of someone who's actually played, dozens of times, precisely the type of army you're theorizing.

You've been good for a laugh guy, cheers!

[Judge]

Err, haha back at you?

Haha.

I've played myself more than a few dozen times, so I'm not exactly impressed by net experience.

[Sir Biscuit]

That's okay Judge, my posts aren't for you, they're for people who actually play 40k. I wouldn't want them to be fooled by your trash advice.

navajas, I hope you post more, you make me laugh. :)

[Judge]

Your posts are for navajas, then. Clearly a refined sort of audience.

Interesting that you're claiming to post for the sake of others, though. You don't bother to read before commenting, so why would you expect anyone else to?

[Judge]

*Now updated with a Mock Battle Report.

[Gotthammer]

Not a legal BA list, only one troops choice.

[Sir Biscuit]

List is legal, if terrible with no scoring to boot. The two troops choices are the Death Company and Death Company Dreadnought.

[Gotthammer]

Ah yes, forgot the dread is troops, thought it was another Elite - but yes, too many 'toys', not enough... useful stuff. Also Frag Cannons and no heavy flamer? No Blood Talons on the DC dread? Also how is the DC dread hit in the rear armour? Walkers are always struck on the front armour.

Mephiston and the Sang guard by themselves eat up far too many points, and the lack of scoring is horrible as it's not a maxed out crazy Astaroth and his amazing Death Co list. 450pts for 6 guys? You can get two tac squads for that.

[Judge]

Thank you kiddies for once again failing to read the entire scenario before commenting. At the beginning of the scenario, it's stated this is not an objective based battle - as such, you'd be pretty stupid to focus on scoring units for the sake of scoring units. Why did I expect anyone to read that? I guess I'm an idiot too.

Mephiston, you dim bulb, is an Independent Character killer, and if he'd gotten to the Warboss and Big Mek, he'd have killed them in one combat round. The Sanguinary Guard weren't the best choice for this particular army - pretty typical for someone who's told "Yeah, you're fighting Orks," but not "Yeah, you're fighting 180 Boyz." Blood Talons would be a little more effective at killing Boyz, but wouldn't instant kill characters, which is, duh, what happened to the Warboss.

Anyway, thanks for criticizing without commenting. I can't fix stupid, so feel free to whine where you'll be appreciated.

[Aldramelech]

Jesus, I thought Buffo was bad.

Not much changed around here then.........

[Gotthammer]

Personal insults now? Wow, you're really struggling here with the concept that people have different opinions to you aren't you?

So anyways, my point was that when I make a list I generally don't make it to the degree of "I'm fighting Orks in Annihilation, with Pitched Battle deployment."
It's ususally "I'm fighting someone at the store in a random or agreed at the time setup, so I'll need a list to cover everything". Even if I know the army I don't know the mission.

If I knew I was fighting Orks, regardless of setup, I'd take Blood Talons and flamers my dreads - they can kill most anything pretty easily except Kans and Deff Dreads, which I'd leave to someone else (tac squad with P-fist etc). Getting more wounds in on Orks is never a bad thing, even if they're rolling in Trukks or Wagons
Giving a dread a frag cannon but keeping the storm bolter is under selling it - it's got a main template weapon so if that's out of range you might as well run him to get closer rather than trying to use 2 S4 shots to do anything, so then might as well replace those with a second template weapon (especially if fighting Orks is a known factor).
Blood Talons can be used to target the big Mobz with ICs in them (with more than one dread at a time), whittle them down by engaging them away from where the IC is (ie so the IC can't attack, being on the other side of 30 or so boyz), and killing them through breaking and sweeping advance.

Mephiston is an IC killer, but unless the Orkish player has a hard-on for Ghaz, I think against a known Ork attack a better use would be a 150pt Librarian and using the extra 100pts to convert the devs into a Baal - no risk of Raging making their weapons useless, and proof against everything in the Ork codex - or a Chaplain or Sanguinary Priest for better HtH skills.


But regardless of all that, you still didn't adress my point raised about the Death Co dread being hit in the rear in HtH combat:

"Death Company Dreadnought charges Warboss squad.
Death Company Dreadnought strikes. Assigns all hits to Warboss. 5 attacks. Warboss dies. (Not assigning hits, or splitting them, leave strong odds of Warboss surviving. If hits not assigned, Big Mek and Nob would die, Warboss would survive to attack rear armour. Warboss alone would cause more penetrating hits, and be less vulnerable to Devastators). Big Mek and Nob strike rear armour. "



I can't fix stupid

Clearly :rolleyes:

[Judge]

Amazing that you had one solid point in with the four stupid ones. Impressive for your kind.

That being said, you've still completely missed the main point of the thread, so kudos. "Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son."

Anyway, feel free to keep being stupid and I'll feel free to keep troll trolling. Whee~

In a friendly spirit of "put up or shut up," post your typical anti-Ork army. You can factor in scoring units or not - dealer's choice.

[Tynskel]

Amazing that you had one solid point in with the four stupid ones. Impressive for your kind.

That being said, you've still completely missed the main point of the thread, so kudos. "Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son."

Anyway, feel free to keep being stupid and I'll feel free to keep troll trolling. Whee~

In a friendly spirit of "put up or shut up," post your typical anti-Ork army. You can factor in scoring units or not - dealer's choice.

hehe, I like the way you think.

[codiddy]

Jesus, I thought Buffo was bad.

Not much changed around here then.........

The ignore feature is your best friend :)

[DarkLink]

Jesus, I thought Buffo was bad.

Not much changed around here then.........

No, I've just noticed that Judge's threads tend to devolve into this. His mathhammer thread was the same. I try to be neutral, but after the flaming starts I just don't care enough to keep posting.

BTW, welcome back. Got all that stuff worked out, then?

[Judge]

Jwolf Edit:

Enough.

[DarkLink]

Way to contradict yourself. Your level of dumb pleases me.


See? Exactly like this.

[Judge]

I'd respond to that, but


after the flaming starts I just don't care enough to keep posting.

[DarkLink]

Heh, so I'm inconsistent. It amuses me.

Of course, of the two of us, I've yet to call anyone a moron. Just saying:p.

In all seriousness, though, you might want to read the forum commenting rules. I'll post them for your convenience;



5) Do not use racist slurs, prejudiced comments, profanity, or derogatory statements. Evading the language filter by using punctuation marks or purposefully misspelling words is considered an offense.

6) Do not initiate arguments of a personal nature. Be courteous to other users, even if you disagree with someone or believe that they are ill-informed. Refrain from flaming posts or comments. You may argue and debate, but do not make any attacks of a personal nature. We strive to make BoLS a place for REASONED discussion amongs fans of the Games Workshop and tabletop wargaming universe.

Saying something in good fun is fine. Insulting someone for disagreeing with you isn't.

[Squirrel_Fish]

First, I'd like to say how proud I am of this forum's community members for behaving the way they are. Way to set a good example. :rolleyes:

I don't think it's particularly fair to throw a min-maxed list like a 182 body Ork Horde against a Blood Angels list that hasn't received the same treatment.

Squirrel Fish's 1500 Blood Angels Armored Wall of Lead
100 - Librarian (will just sit with one of the assault squads, powers are Shackle Soul and Sanguine Sword)
170 - Furioso Dreadnought w/ Heavy Flamer, Blood Talons and Drop Pod
170 - Furioso Dreadnought w/ Heavy Flamer, Blood Talons and Drop Pod
105 - Assault Squad w/ Flamer (No Jump Packs)
55 - Razorback w/ TL-Assault Cannon
105 - Assault Squad w/ Meltagun (No Jump Packs)
55 - Razorback w/ TL-Assault Cannon
145 - Baal Predator w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons
145 - Baal Predator w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons
145 - Baal Predator w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons
100 - Predator w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons
100 - Predator w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons
100 - Predator w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons


Blood Angels got first turn (and I'll assume will deploy first then).

The three Baal Predators will be deployed at the 12" line spaced evenly apart. Razorbacks will be deployed at the 12" line between the three Baals. The regular Predators start about 20" away from the middle line, spaced in between Baals and Razorbacks for clear lines of fire. Dreadnoughts will be deployed on the flanks of the outer Baals, the drop pods will be in reserve. As the Ork Horde strategy depends on them getting into CC as quickly as possible, they deploy as forward as possible and miraculously have each Mob get a model within 6" of the KFF.

Turn 1 - BA. Drop Pod lands in the back field of the Blood Angels. No sense in giving up a kill point :D. The Baals and RB's move up a single inch (23" away from enemy). Dreadnoughts move up 6 inches (18" away from enemy). All tanks unload into the middle horde. 20 TL-Assault cannon shots (17.76 hit, 14.8 wounds, 9.77 die), 6 Autocannon shots (4 hit, 3.32 wound, 2.19 die) and 36 Heavy Bolter shots (24 Hit, 18 wound, 12 die).

Turn 1 - Orks. All mobz move up 6 inches and run an average of 3" (15" away from front tanks, left and right mobs 9" inches away from Dreadnoughts).

Total Casualties: Ork - 23.96 dead boyz. BA - None.

Turn 2 - BA. Baals and RB's backpedal 4" (19" away). Furiouso's move up 6" (3 inches away). Two Baals fire into the front horde, 8 TL-Assault Cannon Shots (7.1 hits, 5.93 wounds, 3.91 die) and 12 Heavy Bolter shots (8 hit, 5.28 wound, 3.48 die). Total of 31.35 wounds dealt to the middle Mob. It is dead.

Baal #3, a Predator and a Razorback unload into the left Mob with 12 Heavy Bolter Shots (8 hit, 5.28 wound, 3.48 die), 2 Autocannon Shots (1.32 hits, 1.1 wounds, .73 die), and 8 TL-Assault Cannon Shots (7.1 hits, 5.93 wound, 3.91 die). Furioso fires his Heavy Flamer for say about 4 hits for 3.33 wounds and his Meltagun (.66 hits, .55 wounds, .363 deaths). 11.81 die.

Furioso charges the left Mob. For simplicity, I'll stop giving the Furioso extra Blood Talon attacks as soon as casualties drop below .5 per round of attacks. (4 attacks, 2.64 hits, 2.55 wounds; 2.55 attacks, 1.68 hits, 1.64 wounds; 1.64 attacks, 1.08 hits, 1.05 wounds; 1.05 attacks, .69 hits, .67 wounds; .67 attacks, .44 hits, .43 wounds). 6.34 Boyz die in assault. Boyz attack and do nothing. Nob attacks with 3 attacks. (1.5 hit, .25 glance, .25 penetrate). Boyz make 5.84 No Retreat! saves, losing 4.88 Boyz. Left Mob casualties = 23.03 wounds inflicted, 7.97 wounds remaining.

Two Predators and a Razorback fire right horde with 4 TL-Assault Cannon Shots (3.55 hits, 2.93 wounds, 1.95 die), 12 Heavy Bolter Shots (8 hit, 5.28 wound, 3.48 die), and 4 Autocannon shots (2.64 hit, 2.2 wound, 1.452 die). Furioso fires his Heavy Flamer for say about 4 hits for 3.33 wounds and his Meltagun (.66 hits, .55 wounds, .363 deaths). 7.57 die.

Furioso charges (4 attacks, 2.64 hits, 2.55 wounds; 2.55 attacks, 1.68 hits, 1.64 wounds; 1.64 attacks, 1.08 hits, 1.05 wounds; 1.05 attacks, .69 hits, .67 wounds; .67 attacks, .44 hits, .43 wounds). 6.34 Boyz die in assault. Boyz attack and do nothing. Nob attacks with 3 attacks. (1.5 hit, .25 glance, .25 penetrate). Boyz make 5.84 No Retreat! saves, losing 4.88 Boyz. 18.79 wounds have been inflicted to the Right Mob, leaving 12.21 wounds.

Total Ork Casualties at the top of turn 2 = 73.17 Ork wounds suffered. .5 Glancing Hits and .5 Penetrating hits against the Blood Angels.

I can pretty much stop right here. The next turn, the Orks can either get closer to the dreadnoughts and engage them in CC or funnel up the middle (seeing as how the right and left flanks are being occupied in CC). The Dreadnoughts are going to survive until the Warboss gets into one of them (and he can only get to one of them and more than likely, the Dread will kill him first and continue to slice n' dice his Boyz) and will continue to inflict about 9 wounds to a Mob a turn unless it gets the charge. With all the firepower of the Blood Angels tanks free to fire into the middle, Orks will die in droves, even with a 5+ cover save. The Tanks will continue to backpedal 6" a turn until up against the table edge.

The main thing that was taken out of the equation and would have had a huge effect was terrain - both impassible and difficult area. While it would've granted a 4+ cover save in certain situations, the fact that the Mob would have to maneuver around terrain or through it means that the Blood Angels would have another turn to open fire.

The other thing that I felt was just gross about your analysis is that you assumed that the Blood Angels player was a complete moron. While Blood Angels are assault inclined, they are also Space Marines and still effective in the shooting phase. You effectively threw away squads by throwing them into melee when a better course of action stood. Before you get into a "You made a Ork Horde Killing army" bit, I'll say that this army list was built to be an all-comers list - the only modifications made were changing the Razorback weapons from Las/TL-Plas to TL-Assault Cannons. My idea of fun in this game is either make very dramatic moves across the table (a la Eldar Falcons moving Flat-Out and popping Star Engines) and/or throw lots of dice at the enemy. To be completely honest, any decently built Imperial Guard army with a competent would probably have a blast (pun intended) removing all these large squads within 3-4 turns.

Cheers,
Squirrel Fish

[Judge]

Dark, I'd respond to that, but


after the flaming starts I just don't care enough to keep posting.

I might call you and others morons, but at least I'm consistent about it. Please note that, insofar as I responded to your first post specifically, I was entirely polite. After you resorted to griping, I grouped you in with the rest.

Please note that Biscuit and plastic disregarded my main post entirely to make ill-considered comments. There really is something to the point I was trying to make, but they both missed it (as did you) for a lack of trying to figure it out. If you look at something with the sole goal of finding fault in it, is it even possible to be courteous in your commentary towards it?

Please note the outright flames I've received in this thread (the main - central - post of which has no inflamatory vocabulary whatsoever). +++DELETED BY THE INQUISITION+++ wasn't put in by the user making the last post on the first page - a user Biscuit smiled rather fondly on. Forums, in my rather vast experience on the subject, tend to be shallow, cliquish, and rude, and the surest way I've found to find a mob against yourself is by presenting something more intelligent or well-considered than the mob itself is wont to produce, and then defend it (and yourself).

I don't insult you for disagreeing with me. I insult you for not rising to a level where your discourse, for or against, has any value to raise the level of discussion and improve the final analysis. If you know how to post forum rules, then read them yourself. Until then, stupid u b.

[Judge]

Squirrel: First off, thanks for putting in an effort. I'll note that you didn't fully read (or comprehend) the main post, and have exercised a few of the bad habits you've accused me of having, but at least you took some time to develop a scenario you consider to be likely, which I'll probably amend this post to comment on once I've finished reading. In the meantime, please consider a key sentence it seems you've missed from the main post.


If you know it's coming, perhaps you can run a tank army and simply outrange them the whole game (eldar falcons with 24" moves to break through lines that get too close), but what normal army's going to be prepared for this?

Again, thanks for putting forth the effort that you have.

*Edits on review

- You let the Blood Angels go first. Why? In my scenario, they went first because, contrary to many of the claims seen here, I wasn't showing the Orks any particular favoritism.
- You ackowledge the effect terrain can have, but don't account for it in your own army list. New scenario - 100% of the board is covered in forest terrain. Effects on shooting and vehicle movement?
- Your army has only two minimally sized scoring units. If you succeed in wiping out the Ork army by turn 4, that matters little, but your scenario ends prematurely. New scenario - there are 5 objectives spread out in sheltered ruins or hardened structures across the center of the board. Effects on plan to withdraw while firing? Also, please note that my scenario had more Ork casualties received than yours by the end of Turn 2 Round 1.
- Your army list relies almost exclusively on AP4 weaponry. What's your backup plan against a 3+ armour save Monstrous Creature force? This seems to go directly against your claim of fielding an "all comers list."
- Feelings are for women and Imperial Guard players. No need to share them.
- You're lowballing your flamer hits from the Furiosas. Intentional to ensure targets to charge?
- Again addressing your "all comers" claim, your posted list is, ironically, incredible vulnerable to opposing mechanized lists. Even if you know you're fighting Orks, two Mek Boy HQs allow 5 Deff Dreads in the Ork army (two of which being their Troop choices), against which you'd have a Librarian, a single Melta Gun, and two very hopeful Assault Cannons.

[Bigred]

Warning to all thread combatants...

Focus on the topic at hand and not each other. This thread is 1 insulting post away from locking and banishment to the oubliette.

[Sir Biscuit]

Here's the thing.

You are posting in a forum called 40k tactics. Not 40k math. While mathhammer does have a significant role to play, it's not the be-all-end-all of 40k... in fact it's just a useful aid. I understand that mathhammer is important, we all do, but when it comes time to actually play the game, deployment, movement, concentration of forces, reserves, and a whole mess of other factors overshadow pure math to determine who the victor is.

No one ignored your original post. We all read it, and we all responded reasonably. The only one starting anything here is you. The math is nice, and we can all appreciate the fractions, (and by the way, multiplying the odds of an event happening by the number of tries is not the correct way to do statistics) but the fact remains that alone that math means little to nothing.

You make an assumption, and a correct one, in your original post: that boys are point-for-point the most efficient killing machines in the game. And it's true, not much can take the 30 man boys squad in a one-on-one fight. However, the boyz squad is balanced by a lot of factors that can't really be represented in a purely mathematical way. Their unwieldiness makes it difficult for them to deal with terrain, they have to spend a round hitting a transport before they can get at the squad inside, they are slow, etc. The list goes one. I don't need to reiterate more, my last few posts were a detailed analysis of these flaws and others. And they DO MATTER... there are two marine bike armies going to Vegas this year. Run the numbers on one of those versus just about any other army list in the game and see what happens... and yet, bike armies are winning GTs. Tactics > Math.

No, you're not going to find an army where ork boyz and the opposing force simply walk at each other across an empty field, and that opposing force wins. But it doesn't matter, because that's not how 40k is actually played.

In WW2, the British used their intelligence network to find out exactly how much manufacturing was affected per tonnes of bombs dropped on a city. Once they had the results, they went to Churchill and asked for funds to build a fleet of bombers... their exciting idea was to drop the optimal amount of bombs on cities to reduce their manufacturing to zero, (German manufacturing was largely centralized at that time) and effectively end the war. Churchill turned them down, because (they were requesting an absurd number of bombers and) the plan failed to take into account any sort of enemy response. It just assumed that the Germans would do nothing about their factories being shut down, and make no counter-effort.

The officers assumption, that the enemy would not react and innovate against an attack, is the most junior of mistakes in warfare. In fact it's the same in 40k, which simulates (to a degree) battle. You can have armies march in lines at each other all day and meatgrind until one comes out on top, but that's not how the game is played and it doesn't give anyone any real idea of how the army functions. 40k is strategy, counter-strategy, dealing with terrain, and a whole host of other non-measurable things that determines who comes out on top. And these non-measurable things are mostly what balance out the Boyz killing power.

Doubt this post will mean anything to you, but I was inspired to write it and hey, when inspiration calls you answer. And for the record, the rest of the people here are known out and about the forum as reasonable, intelligent, kind individuals. The flames in this thread are all coming from you... I'd chill out before I lost any more friends, if I were you.

EDIT: In b4 lock!

[Melissia]

I have had zero problems dealing with horde Orks with my Sisters. Even if I don't change my list to have more flamers and fewer meltaguns, I still don't have that big a problem with them. Playing Sisters doesn't even require advanced strategy; just careful tactical movement. Ensuring that you get the turn of rapid fire, or ensuring that you get the assault, etc.

The movement phase is the most important phase for Sisters, not the shooting phase, not the assault phase. I don't let Orks get the assault on my Sisters unless there's so few of them that it doesn't matter. I assault THEM. AFTER hitting them with a heavy flamer and combiflamer, by themselves causing more than enough wounds to severely diminish the squad's combat effectiveness. Thirty member squads are so vulnerable to flamer templates that it's almost not funny anymore.

[Squirrel_Fish]

Squirrel: First off, thanks for putting in an effort. I'll note that you didn't fully read (or comprehend) the main post, and have excercised a few of the bad habits you've accused me of having, but at least you took some time to develop a scenario you consider to be likely, which I'll probably amend this post to comment on once I've finished reading it. In the meantime, please consider a key sentence it seems you've missed from the main post.



Again, thanks for putting for the effort that you have.

*Edits on review

- You claim I ignore terrain effects, yet do the same for your analysis. New scenario - 100% of the board is covered in forest terrain. Effects on shooting and vehicle movement?
- Your army has only two minimally sized scoring units. If you succeed in wiping out the Ork army by turn 4, that matters little, but your scenario ends prematurely.
- Your army list relies almost exclusively on AP4 weaponry. What's your backup plan against a 3+ armour save Monstrous Creature force? This seems to go directly against your claim of fielding an "all comers list."
- Feelings are for women and Imperial Guard players. No need to share them.

The purpose of my scenario was to put an equally surprising and orthothodox list onto the table. The reason why I did not add any terrain effects was because then the results not be comparable to your mock battle (since they are no longer the same premise - gotta have that Control variable...). While I realize that a largely empty table is very beneficial to a shooting army, a heavily terrained table (even 40 to 50%) is hugely beneficial to an assault-oriented army (and would lower casualties by about 16% but slowing movement by about 2 inches). The standard table is supposed to have about 25% terrain on the board (a mix of both impassible and difficult), so I would concede to lowering casualties by 8% and lowering speed by an inch on average.

Your point about scoring units is well-noted, but is moot in your presented scenario since you implied that it was an Annihilation mission. I would still be capable of playing in a standard game with this list by having to be a little more tactical and sneaky. The idea is to not hold an objective, but steal the at the end by contesting enemy-held objectives with tank shocks and Flat-Out moves to move those assault squads onto uncontested objectives.

While my list has an abundance of AP4 weapons, I'm a firm believer of throwing enough dice at the enemy to make a problem go away. Heck, if I had the patience to paint all of the models, I should totally be an Ork or IG player. The high volume of S6 and S7 fire can put a hurt on a nearly any MC. When facing AV 14 and lots of Monstrous creatures, the Furioso Dreadnoughts have their role in the army shifted from slaughtering infantry wholesale to taking out big targets with Meltaguns and Blood Talons (which can easily inflict enough wounds to kill most MC's in a single turn and two Meltaguns are probably going to leave a hurt on a LR). Assault Cannons and Autocannons are enough to punch through side armour 10 and 11 (and are very capable of getting that angle with a Fast chassis).

I realize that the point of this thread really isn't a "180 Boyz da' bestiest army evah!" argument, but is a just a number crunching of how cost effective the Ork Boy is. I'm not arguing against it. For 6 points a model, the Ork Boy is a fantastic buy. As I pointed out earlier, I love throwing lots of dice at the same time. But I would never play an army like this. It's tactically inflexible, it has a significant problem with mobility, and perhaps most important - it's really, reaaaalllly boring to play outside of the occasional gits and shiggles game. Why? Because moving 182 models 6" (or less, depending on difficult terrain) every single movement phase and then another d6" during the run phase makes me want to get a beer while you take a huge chunk of time to move your side of the table. If you want one too, I'd gladly grab you one...(if you buy both, that is :p)

[Judge]

Biscuit, on a guess I'd say that I'm older than you are. One of the careers I've had in life was Military Intelligence. Not the goofy fictional stuff, but the actual thing. I'd also say that I have more medals than your father does, presuming he ever served.

Insofar as reasonable and intelligent forum claims are concerned, you were cheering on a user who was actively cursing me (who I certainly had never said a word to prior). Check out the first page for the fun +++INQUISITION ATED MAH BABY+++ edits a mod threw in.

You claim to understand the importance of mathematics in a game that's almost entirely based on odds, but with the same breath go on to dismiss it. If you do understand the limited value that mathematics have, then you should appreciate such instead of casually dismissing the whole because it takes experience to account for the fudge factors of random terrain and tactics. I've been playing 40k since 2nd edition. One of my regular opponents has been playing since Rogue Trader (has a rather nice Squat army of OOP models). You assume that I don't apply any experience. You assume that I don't know what I'm talking about, and because of these assumptions, you dismiss out of hand much of what I wrote without looking closely at it.

Slugga Boyz are an exceptional value with Toughness 4, 5+ cover saves and 3 regular attacks thrown in. By exceptional, I mean that Fire Warriors, Tac Squads, Termagaunts, Hormagaunts, Necron Warriors, Genestealers and Assault Marines don't measure up well pound for pound. Embedded characters are made even more powerful given this enhanced screen to hide in - how many Striking Scorpions with Exarch (Scorpion Fist is only Str 6 now, btw) can you get for the same point investment? Not many.

Perhaps you've dealt with hordes before. I certainly have. This horde stands out, and perhaps if you'd stopped to consider this, you could've evidenced some of this forum's vaunted intelligence, reasonableness and kindness instead of ignorantly dismissing an argument out of hand and griping at others you think have griped at you first.

Squirrel, I'm a teatotaller. Care for a Gatorade? I also like loads of dice, which's part of why I listed this "boring" army. Think, against a Tyranid assault army, you might find yourself getting assaulted and rolling 540 to hit dice on the defense! The thing about tactics is that there's a time for maneuver, and a time for blunt force trauma. I'm finding it a little hard to justify the 5th edition armour buff, and I've noticed that army builds both I and my opponents are fielding are becoming ridiculously armour heavy (sort of like the build you posted, but with anti-armour focus instead of anti-troop. Honestly, why bother with anti-troop when vehicles are generally stronger, and thus more likely to be fielded?). For that exact reason a list like the Boyz I posted is potentially devastating (and that's the point of this thread). Just imagine what they'd do to that 3+ armour save Monstrous Creature army I'd said one might counter yours with.

Here I post this beautiful anti-anti-armour list, and nobody even recognizes it, let alone appreciates. I'm quite put out.

[Melissia]

Don't push it, Judge. The thread is already on watch from BigRed.

[Judge]

You're pushing it by saying that, Melissia. Do you really not see that?

[Squirrel_Fish]

- You're lowballing your flamer hits from the Furiosas. Intentional to ensure targets to charge?
- Again addressing your "all comers" claim, your posted list is, ironically, incredible vulnerable to opposing mechanized lists. Even if you know you're fighting Orks, two Mek Boy HQs allow 5 Deff Dreads in the Ork army (two of which being their Troop choices), against which you'd have a Librarian, a single Melta Gun, and two very hopeful Assault Cannons.

- The low amount of Flamer hits is to guarantee that I wouldn't put that squad out of assault range.
- My list has the following weapons to deal with armor - 6 Autocannons, 5 Twin-Linked Assault Cannons, 3 Meltaguns (remember the ones built into the Furioso's...). AV 14 presents a huge problem for me, Land Raider Spam or Monoliths are rough (well, against Necrons i'd just focus on Phase Out), meaning that when Land Raiders have to die, I have to coordinate particularly well with Melta-fire. The assault cannon is a highly overrated weapon, but I find that I like the flexibility and reliability of twin-linking it, allowing me to shoot at armor and infantry with reasonable effectiveness either way.



Squirrel, I'm a teatotaller. Care for a Gatorade? I also like loads of dice, which's part of why I listed this "boring" army. Think, against a Tyranid assault army, you might find yourself getting assaulted and rolling 540 to hit dice on the defense! The thing about tactics is that there's a time for maneuver, and a time for blunt force trauma. I'm finding it a little hard to justify the 5th edition armour buff, and I've noticed that army builds both I and my opponents are fielding are becoming ridiculously armour heavy (sort of like the build you posted, but with anti-armour focus instead of anti-troop. Honestly, why bother with anti-troop when vehicles are generally stronger, and thus more likely to be fielded?). For that exact reason a list like the Boyz I posted is potentially devastating (and that's the point of this thread).

Here I post this beautiful anti-anti-armour list, and nobody even recognizes it, let alone appreciates. I'm quite put out.

Cranberry juice for me, then. By the way, it was never my intention to make it look like I just hopped onto the 5th edition Mechanized bandwagon because. I just like me some tanks (whether flying or treaded). :D

I thought that the whole paper to the rock to the scissors thing (tanks > horde > anti-tank > tanks etc) was implied and already well-recognized by most people. Against the usual metagame army-list built to deal with Armor or MC's, this army will gobble them up and leave nothing but bones. If you wanted a pat on the back, there you go.

If I played against this list (or played with this list, even) once or twice, I'm sure I'd have a blast. But I think I'd get bored of it very quickly afterwards. Using Shootas over Sluggas in a two Mobs would be interesting, however....

[Melissia]

If politely reminding you of the mod's warning is itself inflammatory, then I doubt anything I say isn't.

[Judge]

Don't push it

isn't even remotely polite, Melissia. Please don't call your action something it isn't, as I have a hard time holding my tongue around hypocrisy.

Squirrel, I've just noticed that the balance of tank > hord > anti-tank > tank has shifted so that rock beats paper. Take IG for example - how long would it take an IG lascannon team to kill a single Basilisk versus how long would it take for the reverse? How about a Battle Tank? 4 IG lascannons have an 11% chance per round to blow a Lemun Russ Battle Tank, but the reverse isn't true at all, even if it misses a lot.

How about Space Wolves Long Fangs? 3 Lascannons (ignoring the cost of the sergeant for a moment) would have a 22% chance per round of blowing a Vindicator and cost 5 points more. Rocket launchers are nicely cheap, but have limited impact on the heavier armours, and those Dreads you listed? Why would anyone take terrestial heavy weapons when a Furiosa could land on top of them and blast them to bits?

Terminators? Many Dreads cost no more than 3 Termis (I'd rather have the Dreads). Sure, there are always melta weapons, but what do you load melta vets into? A tank (counting transports).

Dark Eldar, I must say, have the problem a little more under control. 3rd edition codexes in general offer some decent anti-armour shooting options. These are the armies that get eaten by 5th edition melee, though, and let's not forget the Dark Eldar are next on the chopping block!

Anyway, I enjoy running the simulated battles, since they're not too far off of real battles save for fewer rules checks and at least one less unwashed body. Just posting the results here for general benefit, just in case anyone else thinks these are interesting too. And snarkiness for snarkiness, of course.

[Tynskel]

As part of my PhD, I work on climate simulation modeling. Crazy crazy stuff- when I finish (years from now!) the model that I will be running will take almost a full year to execute.

Here's the thing about all this math math math:
There are many other factors involved- things that effect how the math equations are used.
Losing LOS takes equations out, being cover applies new equations, placement of units in different locations cause orders of operations.

The problem with the math hypothesis:
No data.
Computer models are completely WORTHLESS without some ground truth. In fact, there is no point to modeling unless you already have an idea of the outcome. The models I work with in climate science are painstakenly designed to incorporate checks against actual data-- CO2 ratios, plant matter, known global events. If the model doesn't match these things, it is worthless!

These math models of Warhammer are not theorizing- these are just running a bunch of table of numbers--- without realistic boundary conditions.

A better way apply the math is to use the simple equations with simple problems.
Ex.
Space Marines using Lascannon vs Twin-linked Assault Cannon against armor 14.
4 (shots)*.888 (to hit)*1/6*1/3(to pen)= 0.197 Pens
1 (shots)*2/3 (to hit)*1/6(to Pen) = 0.111 Pens
The Assault Cannon is better.

If you expand the simple equations to more complex problems, you need a series of constraints to give you a predictable result.
Ex.
Baal Predator (hv bolter sponsons) Vs Destructor w/Lascannon Sponsons against armor 14
145 point tank vs 135 point tank
4 (shots)*.888 (to hit)*1/6*1/3(to pen)= 0.197 Pens
2 (shots)*2/3 (to hit)*1/6(to Pen) = 0.222 Pens
Now the Lascannons are a better choice.

I used the point values as a baseline for comparison, types of firepower, and a specific target.
I can expand this complex situation for all armor values (which is just a series of individual equations).
Look at how complicated the situation gets:
To compare the Baal vs the Destructor, against all armor I need: 10 equations.

Note that I do not consider armor facing, terrain, ect. These are first order equations, and can realistically applied on first order problems.

But, what I cannot do is apply this math to a full game or even a turn. There are simply just too many factors involved to try to model this correctly- we are talking about the Destructor have 5 equations for shooting armor, not including LOS, and Cover. You would need to know the boundary conditions: terrain, placement, point values, armor values, ect, ect--- way too complicated. Now factor in that EVERY unit has probably ~10 equations (probably more) associated with them. (just look at the first post- there must be ~30 units: 300 equations!!!) So many boundary conditions that it becomes futile to even bother. Second, with so many factors involved, you would need to run the model many times to reach a steady state in which the results can be statistically analyzed for trends. With so many factors, we are talking about 100s of iterations (perhaps even thousands).

This just gets redonkulous. You might as well develop a computer game and get paid for it-- you'll need the venture funds for amount of time spent programming.

Essentially, the math becomes a reference tool for the 'in-game' decision making. You break down the individual turn to a series of instantaneous probabilities, and make your decisions for what to shoot (although, this is something I wouldn't recommend using all the time unless you are training for a tournament-- kinda takes away from the fun of the game).

[Judge]

Come on now, Tynskel. How many people spend how many hours playing this ridiculous game? Of course we collectively have the time to spend programming in however many variables we please.

Now, which would you rather field for general use: Eldar Jetbikes, or a Farseer? Well, they're qualitatively different. You'd be comparing apples to oranges. There are viable scenarios for either to prove functional, and insufficient data to be sure which you'll face until the moment's upon you.

You'd also field the Farseer.

How did your mind make a rational decision on which to choose? Based on no data? Pure guesswork? Intuition? Your gut? Maybe you might've looked at comparative point costs, statlines and abilities between apples and apples in another faction (Jetbikes and Assault Marines, for example)? Wait, that sounds suspiciously like math was involved (BS 4 - BS 3 = 1 free BS!).

Off the top of your head, list every conceived scenario wherein a Jetbikes unique capabilities might win the day versus those where a Farseer would prove more viable. Assign weighted probabilities. Make a sound internal determination concerning which to field. Took you about five seconds. You made reasonable assumptions.

Now, say that your mind's not certain how to weigh certain assumptions. Is an assault marine more effective in melee than a Death Company marine? We're not addressing mobility here, but a single, isolated set of probabilities against an isolated set of reasonably anticipated opponents.

If two people get into a violent confrontation, who's going to win? There are certainly too many variables to cleanly decide until it's over, but smart money goes with the big guy. Sometimes the big guy loses. Is the decision to go with the big guy based upon past experience, or an instantaneous generalized calculation of relative mass?

Experience is a collection of datasets. Datasets have no meaning absent a frame of reference. No one's trying to conclusively establish every conceivable scenerio for every possible combination of unit interactions on every possible configuration of terrain (although if you assigned limiting factors to table size and terrain - 1" increments? - then it's possible, as the number of data points are finite). We're not that bored. We are offering differing frames of reference which will collaborate with different sets of experience differently and then mesh to form a more complete (albeit still greatly limited) picture than we started out with. Predicting a complete set of outcomes for any given match from start to finish may be more trouble than it's worth, but you can get a better "feel" for where your best performance is coming from if you do have a better "reference tool for the in-game decision making" in advance of the game.

[DarkLink]

If politely reminding you of the mod's warning is itself inflammatory, then I doubt anything I say isn't.

I even copied and pasted some of the forum rules about being courteous for his benefit over on the boys will be boys thread, since it sounded like he'd never read them.


As part of my PhD, I work on climate simulation modeling. Crazy crazy stuff- when I finish (years from now!) the model that I will be running will take almost a full year to execute.

Here's the thing about all this math math math:
There are many other factors involved- things that effect how the math equations are used.
Losing LOS takes equations out, being cover applies new equations, placement of units in different locations cause orders of operations.

The problem with the math hypothesis:
No data.
Computer models are completely WORTHLESS without some ground truth. In fact, there is no point to modeling unless you already have an idea of the outcome. The models I work with in climate science are painstakenly designed to incorporate checks against actual data-- CO2 ratios, plant matter, known global events. If the model doesn't match these things, it is worthless!

These math models of Warhammer are not theorizing- these are just running a bunch of table of numbers--- without realistic boundary conditions.

A better way apply the math is to use the simple equations with simple problems.
Ex.
Space Marines using Lascannon vs Twin-linked Assault Cannon against armor 14.
4 (shots)*.888 (to hit)*1/6*1/3(to pen)= 0.197 Pens
1 (shots)*2/3 (to hit)*1/6(to Pen) = 0.111 Pens
The Assault Cannon is better.

If you expand the simple equations to more complex problems, you need a series of constraints to give you a predictable result.
Ex.
Baal Predator (hv bolter sponsons) Vs Destructor w/Lascannon Sponsons against armor 14
145 point tank vs 135 point tank
4 (shots)*.888 (to hit)*1/6*1/3(to pen)= 0.197 Pens
2 (shots)*2/3 (to hit)*1/6(to Pen) = 0.222 Pens
Now the Lascannons are a better choice.

I used the point values as a baseline for comparison, types of firepower, and a specific target.
I can expand this complex situation for all armor values (which is just a series of individual equations).
Look at how complicated the situation gets:
To compare the Baal vs the Destructor, against all armor I need: 10 equations.

Note that I do not consider armor facing, terrain, ect. These are first order equations, and can realistically applied on first order problems.

But, what I cannot do is apply this math to a full game or even a turn. There are simply just too many factors involved to try to model this correctly- we are talking about the Destructor have 5 equations for shooting armor, not including LOS, and Cover. You would need to know the boundary conditions: terrain, placement, point values, armor values, ect, ect--- way too complicated. Now factor in that EVERY unit has probably ~10 equations (probably more) associated with them. (just look at the first post- there must be ~30 units: 300 equations!!!) So many boundary conditions that it becomes futile to even bother. Second, with so many factors involved, you would need to run the model many times to reach a steady state in which the results can be statistically analyzed for trends. With so many factors, we are talking about 100s of iterations (perhaps even thousands).

This just gets redonkulous. You might as well develop a computer game and get paid for it-- you'll need the venture funds for amount of time spent programming.

Essentially, the math becomes a reference tool for the 'in-game' decision making. You break down the individual turn to a series of instantaneous probabilities, and make your decisions for what to shoot (although, this is something I wouldn't recommend using all the time unless you are training for a tournament-- kinda takes away from the fun of the game).

Quite well put.

[Aims]

Okay, people. Let's all take a step back here and chill, hmm? While the spirit of debate is good in and of itself, the constant need to prove each other to be less intelligent is pushing the bounds of the forum rules. Melissia is correct that this thread is being watched, and not just by Bigred. Keep it cool. Keep it civil.

There's a rule that I'm sure most people's mothers have taught them at some point, and to quote Disney's Bambi, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." If you find that you need to continue the arguing about the other person's intelligence or lack of understanding of the point you were attempting to make in the first place, please take it to PM or off the forum for further discussion.

Final warning, people. The Oubliette tends to eat things and not let them come back out again. It's sorta like the Eye of Terror, but meaner.

[Tynskel]

Come on now, Tynskel. How many people spend how many hours playing this ridiculous game? Of course we collectively have the time to spend programming in however many variables we please.

Now, which would you rather field for general use: Eldar Jetbikes, or a Farseer? Well, they're qualitatively different. You'd be comparing apples to oranges. There are viable scenarios for either to prove functional, and insufficient data to be sure which you'll face until the moment's upon you.

You'd also field the Farseer.

How did your mind make a rational decision on which to choose? Based on no data? Pure guesswork? Intuition? Your gut? Maybe you might've looked at comparative point costs, statlines and abilities between apples and apples in another faction (Jetbikes and Assault Marines, for example)? Wait, that sounds suspiciously like math was involved (BS 4 - BS 3 = 1 free BS!).

Off the top of your head, list every conceived scenario wherein a Jetbikes unique capabilities might win the day versus those where a Farseer would prove more viable. Assign weighted probabilities. Make a sound internal determination concerning which to field. Took you about five seconds. You made reasonable assumptions.

Now, say that your mind's not certain how to weigh certain assumptions. Is an assault marine more effective in melee than a Death Company marine? We're not addressing mobility here, but a single, isolated set of probabilities against an isolated set of reasonably anticipated opponents.

If two people get into a violent confrontation, who's going to win? There are certainly too many variables to cleanly decide until it's over, but smart money goes with the big guy. Sometimes the big guy loses. Is the decision to go with the big guy based upon past experience, or an instantaneous generalized calculation of relative mass?

Experience is a collection of datasets. Datasets have no meaning absent a frame of reference. No one's trying to conclusively establish every conceivable scenerio for every possible combination of unit interactions on every possible configuration of terrain (although if you assigned limiting factors to table size and terrain - 1" increments? - then it's possible, as the number of data points are finite). We're not that bored. We are offering differing frames of reference which will collaborate with different sets of experience differently and then mesh to form a more complete (albeit still greatly limited) picture than we started out with. Predicting a complete set of outcomes for any given match from start to finish may be more trouble than it's worth, but you can get a better "feel" for where your best performance is coming from if you do have a better "reference tool for the in-game decision making" in advance of the game.

Yes, you are right that experience helps with decision making in ARMY DESIGN.
However, you are writing a simulation-- trying to back up your hypothesis: 'boyz are awesome', with some numbers.
My earlier post was a polite way of explaining why your methods were poor.

Your gut is worthless in a simulation or model. The whole point of the model is to TEST whether your gut feeling was correct. The assumptions you have made do not come close to allowing you to have a 'reference tool for the in-game decision making'.

For example: Terrain. This has a huge effect on the game. Blocking LOS, slowing troops down, tanks can get immobilized-- ect ect. There are a gagillion possibilities. Your simulation doesn't account for this. Your simulation doesn't account for reserves, deployment on the board, deep strikers, nor outflankers. Range dependencies, target priority.

The list goes on and on. How are we supposed to believe that your maths are an accurate assessment of an army?

I said before: you have taken a series of 1st Order Equations, and applied them to a 3rd or 4th Order problem.

My example of the Baal vs Destructor is an example of how easily the threshold for system explodes! That's a second order application, not factoring in terrain or circumstances--- just simple firing mechanics. For example, the baal outflanks- but does not come in until a couple turns into the game. The Baal has shorter range than the Destructor, but is more likely to hit side armor. The destructor can be firing from turn one, but is likely to be hitting front armor. These are complicated situations and require a lot more equations that just Damage vs Damage. This bumps up the system to 3rd to 4th order. You would need an equation for movement, range, deployment, outflanking, game turn mechanics, ect. Just to test these two units in action.

The experience that you talk about is in your head- but it is NOT quantitatively recorded. It is hard to separate in our minds how well a unit 'rolled'. Memory will put distinct outlooks on specific events. In the games that you were playing, did you recored every outcome? No- no one does. Not even the battle reports that talk about individual units being destroyed record the outcomes.

You need raw data to analyze to develop equations of state to be able to then try to simulate a game.

No, the simple math you are using can only be applied to simple scenarios- gun vs gun, maybe unit vs unit in a very LIMITED scope.

[Lerra]

My favorite way of dealing with Ork Boyz squads that are spread out in a 72" long line is to assault them with two units, one on each end. The squad must maintain unit coherency, so the Ork player can only get a few models into assault, and often the powerklaw is stuck somewhere in the middle.

[Polonius]

Green Tide orks are a tasty list, I think that the main reason not to expect them to win every game is that in the two years we've had the codex they simply haven't.

they are admittedly stronger at 1500, but there are still a few big ways to chew into them. First is with massed templates. Second is to whittle them down and tank shock. Third is massive combie charges, where you force each mob to take a bunch of fearless saves.

It's also good to see that BOLS has, if anything, become more troll infested since I started posting here. Maybe that's my clue to stop...

[Tynskel]

It's also good to see that BOLS has, if anything, become more troll infested since I started posting here. Maybe that's my clue to stop...

Trolls grow naturally in the dark caves where computers and internets are found.

The only way to deal with them is using the cleansing flame of promethium.

[Polonius]

I'm hip to that. I'm just quickly reaching a point on BOLS where the number of posters I like reading is outnumbered by those who simply throw flame. Why the hell should I spend time on a moderated forum, where I can't swear or speak freely, when I'm surrounded by people that are boors, trolls, and simply rude?

[DarkLink]

I'm hip to that. I'm just quickly reaching a point on BOLS where the number of posters I like reading is outnumbered by those who simply throw flame. Why the hell should I spend time on a moderated forum, where I can't swear or speak freely, when I'm surrounded by people that are boors, trolls, and simply rude?

Just add some your names to your Ignore List.

To be honest, though, I've only ever encountered one person who was persistently offensive enough to get put on that list so far, and that was only just recently.

I mean, I did have one guy call me an idiot once, way back in the Arjac Thunderhammer + JotWW thread, and I think I saw him do the same to someone else later, but he only had like, 10 posts or something, so it's not like I saw his posts ever. But other than that, not really anyone.


Something to keep in mind, is that oftentimes people sound meaner than they intend to. Never attribute to malice, and all that. That's why I've only blocked one person, because that's the only person who genuinely seemed malice-ey*. Everyone else might have sounded rude on occasion, but it always just seemed to me that they were just being blunt, or even joking, rather than actually being mean. Yes, even Melissia;).

*I'm pretty sure malice-ey isn't actually a word, but I like it anyways.

[bigrob281]

p. 6 of the BRB: "However no modifier may raise any characteristic above 10 or lower it below 0."

p. 36 of the BRB: "To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their Initiative value lower to 1 when attacking, regardless of other Initiative modifiers."

So yeah, no stat can go above 10, and the KFF does not help you in assault. The "Assaulting Through Cover" portion of the rule book is referring to assaulting through difficult and dangerous terrain, not assaulting units that have a cover save.

i don't know if someone said this but there is one stat that can go over 10 and thats attacks like deamon weapons that roll 2d6 for attacks

[Lerra]

Why be malicious when you can be malice-ey? ;) I like it.

[Melissia]

i don't know if someone said this but there is one stat that can go over 10 and thats attacks like deamon weapons that roll 2d6 for attacks

Those are are more like bonus attacks, not the actual stats.

[Fizyx]

i don't know if someone said this but there is one stat that can go over 10 and thats attacks like deamon weapons that roll 2d6 for attacks

I thought Daemon weapons rolled +d6 for attacks and there is a line in the rule saying the attacks can never go above 10? I don't have the codex in front of me (been on business travel for the last 2 months, ugh) so I can't say for sure.

[DarkLink]

I thought Daemon weapons rolled +d6 for attacks and there is a line in the rule saying the attacks can never go above 10? I don't have the codex in front of me (been on business travel for the last 2 months, ugh) so I can't say for sure.

Khornate Daemon weapons roll 2d6. And yes, it can go over 10. The weapon grants a temporary modifier, not a permanent one. GW said so.

[Fizyx]

Khornate Daemon weapons roll 2d6. And yes, it can go over 10. The weapon grants a temporary modifier, not a permanent one. GW said so.

sweet

[DarkLink]

sweet

Aside from the 11/36 chance of your lord hitting himself and not doing anything for a turn, yes.

[PsychoSquire]

I agree, that the proof is in the pudding. Where do you live? I have a solid 1500 point allc omers BA army list, I would gladly put up against the green hoarde. Rather than mathammer it out, why don't we just put both armies on the table and see if the army holds it's weight?

I will gladly record the Battle Report, and post it here to vindicate you should you be successful in defeating my army. I mean, people can flame you all day, but maybe you have something here. :) I suppose I can lead my BA like lambs to the slaughter againt the might that is the green assault horde.

[Lord Azaghul]

So back onto the whole: how to beat mobs of orks things:

Its really just about focusing fire. Obviously the IG are on off the best at it. Deployment can also be your friend against masses of orks: Almost every deployment results in the Orks being staggered in their assult, that means one must simply prioritize targeting.
I'm not saying its the easiest thing is the, and obviosly some armies are better at it then others, but I don't think my IG have ever lost to mobbed orks.
My standard all comers 1750 list has 4 large blast S8+ Templates, I take a squad of mortar teams, every transport has a heavy flamer, and every squad has a flamer.

[SandWyrm]

So back onto the whole: how to beat mobs of orks things:

Its really just about focusing fire. Obviously the IG are on off the best at it. Deployment can also be your friend against masses of orks: Almost every deployment results in the Orks being staggered in their assult, that means one must simply prioritize targeting.

It's also about blocking their movement and delaying them. Fast moving Hellhounds are a great way of delaying an Ork Hoard. The tank is too dangerous to let live, yet it will take at least 2 turns of close combat to kill it. Which ties up the Ork Hoard's front rank and forces the squads behind it to go around the melee. Allowing focused fire to be more effective.

Sentinels also work wonders here. As do sacrificial infantry squads. You can kill my guys all you want in close combat. But you're going to do it one squad at a time and waste a turn on each, with me firing on you the whole way. :)

[Melissia]

Bolter spam and flamers always worked for me to kill massed Boyz.

For Guard, I always wanted to try manticore spam. 3-9 S10 AP4 large blasts per turn? Nasty, even with cover saves.

[Tynskel]

Bolter spam and flamers always worked for me to kill massed Boyz.

For Guard, I always wanted to try manticore spam. 3-9 S10 AP4 large blasts per turn? Nasty, even with cover saves.

You can take a lot of hellhounds (and their variants) if you do Manticore spam!