LOS and firing form hatches

[Lord Inquisitor]

Do you get cover saves when firing from the hatch of a Chimera if the Chimera itself is what is blocking the models? Look from the hatch of a Chimera at models. Almost always they will be covered. Does this give a cover save?

[BuFFo]

Do you get cover saves when firing from the hatch of a Chimera if the Chimera itself is what is blocking the models? Look from the hatch of a Chimera at models. Almost always they will be covered. Does this give a cover save?

Simply put, no.

I have never seen this happen in any official GW tourney/event in a decade and a half, in any edition and with any vehicle.

Just fire and you are fine.

[Duskstorm]

Do you get cover saves when firing from the hatch of a Chimera if the Chimera itself is what is blocking the models? Look from the hatch of a Chimera at models. Almost always they will be covered. Does this give a cover save?

No, but you can't be targetted while inside a vehicle, even if it's open topped or the hatches are open, in order for your opponent to hit you he would first have to penetrate and destroy the vehicle.

EDIT: Sorry misread your post, but I have to agree with Buffo, when firing from a vehicle the squad inside and the vehicle are one unit and as per the rulebook, you're allowed to fire through the squad you are a part of without penalty.

[SeattleDV8]

EDIT: Sorry misread your post, but I have to agree with Buffo, when firing from a vehicle the squad inside and the vehicle are one unit and as per the rulebook, you're allowed to fire through the squad you are a part of without penalty.

Units embarked are just that, embarked.
At no point do they become the same unit ( they may be the same FOC but remain 2 units)
Note that embarked unit can fire at a different target from its transport, this would be impossible if they became one unit.
The vehicle can block LOS and so does give a cover save.

[DarkLink]

Units embarked are just that, embarked.
At no point do they become the same unit ( they may be the same FOC but remain 2 units)
Note that embarked unit can fire at a different target from its transport, this would be impossible if they became one unit.
The vehicle can block LOS and so does give a cover save.

But where precisely are the passengers drawing LOS from? On a rhino, you measure from the rear hatch. But the rear hatch doesn't stick out above the rest of the vehicle, so if you by strict LOS then you could never ever shoot anything that was shorter than the vehicle because the passenger couldn't see it.

I say no cover.

[Paul]

I don't think it is intended to give the external target a cover save. If you think about it, in some cases it is an abstraction. In other cases, the models really are firing out of the hatch. Let's address both circumstances:

1) The abstraction: The models are really firing from somewhere else. Not precise enough to judge based on pure TLOS.

2) The actual-hatch firing: The model isn't just poking his head out. He's poking his head, most of his torso, and, to really get a nicely aimed shot, as much of him as he needs. I'd say, if you really were a person who cared, measure from the model's height above the nearest point of the hatch; that's where he'd pop out with his Meltagun or whatever and expose himself to shoot. He might even crawl over to the edge of the tank if it was moving slowly or stopped.

[BuFFo]

But where precisely are the passengers drawing LOS from? On a rhino, you measure from the rear hatch. But the rear hatch doesn't stick out above the rest of the vehicle, so if you by strict LOS then you could never ever shoot anything that was shorter than the vehicle because the passenger couldn't see it.

I say no cover.

Agreed.

No new taxes!

[Melissia]

But where precisely are the passengers drawing LOS from? On a rhino, you measure from the rear hatch. But the rear hatch doesn't stick out above the rest of the vehicle, so if you by strict LOS then you could never ever shoot anything that was shorter than the vehicle because the passenger couldn't see it.

I say no cover.

I concur with this.

There are many points where rules lawyering becomes stupid; and this is one of those points.

[SeattleDV8]

Thats great for house rules ,GAP and etc. , but the rule is (BRB pg. 66)
" Range and LOS are measured from the fire point itself."
Not from above or from the hull, but from the fire point 'itself'.
If the LOS from the fire point is obsured you would have to give cover.
Note: I have never forced someone to play it this way even though it is RAW because of the inherent problems with the fire point rules.

In that the fire points on a vehicle are poorly defined, for example; a Rhino has a large hatch and two cupolas . Which is the fire point? Any or all could be used.
The Chimera is even worse, is it the hatch or is it from the lasgun emplacements?

[TSINI]

I think it is assumed the models lean right out of the hatch to get LOS to their target, rather than just peaking out.

[Mobious]

I would personally say cover save, but if my opponent said otherwise I would not put up much of a fight. True LoS means that sometimes your target would get a save, especially if they are very close to your ride. Plus GW sort of made a ruling on this with Razorback turrets, and even Serpent hulls. If the LoS is obscured, a cover save is awarded, simple as that.

[AirHorse]

I dont think los should be an issue just over the top of the hull(like shooting to the side of a chimera or a rhino) but if a protruding part is in the way, such as a turret or a pintle mounted weapon, then that should block line of sight. The troopers are leaning out of the hatch, not jumping out onto the top of the vehicle.

[DarkLink]

I dont think los should be an issue just over the top of the hull(like shooting to the side of a chimera or a rhino) but if a protruding part is in the way, such as a turret or a pintle mounted weapon, then that should block line of sight. The troopers are leaning out of the hatch, not jumping out onto the top of the vehicle.

My point is, you can't really go with really, really strict TLOS when your shooting out of a hatch. It just doesn't work well.

[AirHorse]

Yeah i got that, I was more or less saying that :P. Sometimes tlos breaks the game since they seemed to forget that everything was supposed to use it, you should try and be as true to it as you can though as long as you arent just being unreasonable :)

[DarkLink]

Maybe they should sell Rhino hatches that are open, with a pair of Space Marines sticking their heads and guns out. Just for this case:rolleyes:.