Am I just crazy?

[Krimsonscythe]

I'm back into 40k after being heavily devoted to WHFB. I just started building the army I've wanted for ten years; Ravenwing.

In the present day's edition am I insane or can this list still be viable if not upper tier?

Eric J

[gwensdad]

High mobility is good, but I'm not sure if the Ravenwing is too point costly or not.

Me? I want to pick up lots of the $90 box set to form a White Scars company. The Ravenwing box is a great value (until GW figures that out and takes it away)

[BuFFo]

I'm back into 40k after being heavily devoted to WHFB. I just started building the army I've wanted for ten years; Ravenwing.

In the present days addition am I insane or can this list still be viable if not upper tier?

Eric J

Yes, it can be very viable.

You aren't playing Fantasy anymore, so you don't have to worry about making WAAC lists like you are used to doing. Just make your army, and have fun with it.

[RocketRollRebel]

I've seen raven wing do very well in tournament settings. Just depends on the player :)

[Melissia]

I've seen purist Grey Knight lists do well. Surely Ravenwing can, too.

[eagleboy7259]

Absolutely it can work. Using Khan and White Scars will offer you more flexibility and fairer prices on units, but in this age of Null Deployment and the Reserves game outflanking bikers wielding melta can be deadly.

[Krimsonscythe]

I've seen purist Grey Knight lists do well. Surely Ravenwing can, too.

Funny you should say. I have a pure GK list and while always an uphill battle I do well enough...

Eric J

[Krimsonscythe]

Yes, it can be very viable.

You aren't playing Fantasy anymore, so you don't have to worry about making WAAC lists like you are used to doing. Just make your army, and have fun with it.

I'll still be playing Fantasy, too much love for the game and too much investment. But I've really been enjoying 40k as of late. Serves my gamer ADD:D

Eric J

[BuFFo]

I'll still be playing Fantasy, too much love for the game and too much investment. But I've really been enjoying 40k as of late. Serves my gamer ADD:D

Eric J

Well, welcome to the fold!

Get you some bikers and drive across the face of the Galaxy in His name!

[DarkLink]

Funny you should say. I have a pure GK list and while always an uphill battle I do well enough...

Eric J

I got second and first in our last two local tournaments, respectively:D. Not to brag or anything:rolleyes:. But I think one of the things I like about GKs is the challenge. A handful of guys vs an entire army. Of course, I won't complain if the new codex is at least middle of the pack in competitiveness, if not better.

We have an 'ardboyz qualifier in town, too, so we'll see if I can get my GKs up to that point level and remain sufficiently wysiwyg. Though even if I were to place, I wouldn't be able to move on. Don't have the time, money or desire to do so.

[Bean]

The Ravenwing army isn't great, right now. Definitely not top tier.

Can you win with it? Sure. Even in competitive environments.

But, as's been mentioned, you'll get a very similar and much more competitive army if you use Codex:Space Marines and a Captain on Bike. (Don't use Khan--he's expensive, and outflank isn't really better than combat tactics.)

If you're really thinking about a bike army, read this great article (http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/40k-finished-tacticas/190403-tactica-space-marine-bike-armies.html) by Red Archer. I don't say this about very many people, but this guy is basically a genius--he really knows what he's talking about.

[Sangre]

Tier Schmier, paint the army you want to paint! That's the most important thing in the hobby.

[eagleboy7259]

Tier Schmier, paint the army you want to paint! That's the most important thing in the hobby.

Depends on the hobbyist, there's little point to building an army and lavishing tons of time and money on it to only rack up a column of L's when you go to play with it.

That article sure made me think twice about Khan, that guy sure seems down on him and I can't really argue effectively a single point he made =(

[Bean]

Well, like the guy said, Khan can be worthwhile in games where he doesn't take too many points away from more important stuff--especially in games where you can afford to include both him and a hard-hitting command squad to benefit from his Furious Assault and Hit And Run rules.

I think it's just important to remember that you don't have to play Khan to play Bikes, and that the loss of Combat Tactics is a real loss. Along with the regular Captain's being cheaper and having a Relic Blade (which is, basically, better than Khan's sword) there's a lot going for the regular ole' biker captain--it seems a lot of people forget that and focus on Khan as if he were the only option.

But yeah. I try to argue with Red Archer on occasion, but he's sharp and usually puts out pretty unassailable points. That's why I recommend his articles.

[DarkLink]

Our local bike player almost never uses Khan. In fact, he tried him out in a game last night and it didn't turn out well, though his dice weren't being very friendly to him.

I like Red Hunter's article there, and it definitely does a good job covering bike tactics. I do have some disagreements about his unit choice, mainly that he discounts several units as ineffective in a bike army that actually work quite well.

Primarily, he seems solidly opposed to a land raider in anything less than 1500pts, due to cost. I can say from extensive personal experience that this isn't a problem in most cases. Our local player usually takes a land raider with vulkan and THSS terminators, to great success. The Land Raider hammer is just as effective at herding enemy units and messing with your opponent as a few vindicators. Some armies can't deal with land Raiders and THSS terminators effectively. And the two units offer some potent options for dealing with enemy units that would otherwise be neigh impossible to deal with. Opponent taking Mephiston? No biggie, just use the threat of your THSS terminators to keep him away. And if he does get close, paste him.

Additionally, as a Grey Knights player, I can count the number of games where I didn't take at least one land raider on one hand, and all of those were due to it being a "casual" game. Even in 1000pt games, I always take a LR. And I can tell you that, played properly, even a single Land Raider with a hammer unit inside can easily make its points back. I know that it's won the game for me far more often than it has lost it.

In fact, I routinely take 3 Land Raiders in 1500pt and above games, though in 1500pts, 2 LRs with some weaker support units works a little better. I just didn't have the models I needed 'till recently.

[Bean]

The Land Raider in the Grey Knights list is a very different animal than the Land Raider in the Marine list--largely because the Grey Knights have so few alternatives.

I don't think Red Archer is solidly against Land Raiders in 1500 point games. They're just not necessary for a bike army, and they don't fit very well into the bike army.

The Bike army and the Grey Knight army are extremely different, and the fact that a particular unit goes well with one doesn't really indicate that it will go well with the other.

That said, I like the Crusader w/TH&SS termies, myself, even in the biker army. It's just a really powerful unit, and you're hard pressed to go wrong with including one in your army.

[DarkLink]

I don't think Red Archer is solidly against Land Raiders in 1500 point games. They're just not necessary for a bike army, and they don't fit very well into the bike army.

It sounded to me like his concern was more of an all your eggs in one basket issue. And I've seen firsthand that Land Raiders work very well when combined with bikes. He might not use them, but they are a very viable option for bike armies, albeit via a slightly different style of list than his.

Ultimately, all I'm saying is that his tactics and reasoning behind the list are solid, but he cross off some units that I think should still be considered. Maybe they don't match his playstyle, but playstyles differ from person to person, so some of the units he discounts might work very well for someone else.



The Bike army and the Grey Knight army are extremely different, and the fact that a particular unit goes well with one doesn't really indicate that it will go well with the other.


Actually, they play more similarly than you might think. The main difference is that, for mobility, GKs rely on transports versus bikes, with the benefits and disadvantages thereof considered. But just like bikes, GKs are shooting, and assaulty, and have good mobility, and are all around generalists. Just like bikes, you can't just rush forward and expect to win. Nor can you just sit back and shoot.

GKs do have somewhat better CC, at the cost of not being able to go 24" a turn. And frankly, if someone asked me what other army I would compare the GK playstyle to, it would probably be a bike army that couldn't turbo-boost.

Regardless, I was simply commenting on the all your eggs in one basket thing. When more than half your points go into Land Raiders, you're walking right on the line that Red Hunter warns about, and I can say that it can be done. Having 3 Land Raiders in 1500pts is a bit too much of a gamble (but as you pointed out, we Gks don't have much of a choice), but 1 Land Raider with a hammer unit isn't a problem in the least bit, even in games smaller than 1500pts.

[Krimsonscythe]

@ Sangre- That's how all my armies get built, whether WHFB or 40k. I need to love the fluff, my theme, then figure out how to make it work...

And Ravenwing is an army I have wanted to do for many years...

As to the article; Read it and yep, great read and he makes some great points. I am finding this edition allows me to use the lists I WANT to use rather than what I NEED to use in regards to mission objectives.

My first army was DE and its there that I found an appreciation for speed and mobility. My tactic has always been use the strong against the weak and numbers against the few.

Overall though its the static look of a well painted Ravenwing force on the table and the DA background that draws me to to the army. Next its the guerrilla type tactics this army employs.

Not looking for an easy road, but a more challenging rewarding one...

Great input so far all.Thanks.....

Eric J

[DarkLink]

In a similar vein, though with less of a focus on specific units and more on tactics in general, I recommend the Way of the Water Warrior (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214). It's the best 40k tactica I've ever read, in my opinion. It was written in 4th ed, but most of the principles still hold true.

It also meshes very well with Red Hunters article. They both have a similar view on tactics, though one is about Grey Knights and the other on bikes.

[Sangre]

Depends on the hobbyist, there's little point to building an army and lavishing tons of time and money on it to only rack up a column of L's when you go to play with it.

Blah, losing is fun! The 801st Astraean are famous for it.