"Agnostic" Marines

[gwensdad]

I was trying to have a conversation on twitter with one of my "new-to-40K MINIONS!" when the subject came up of which chapters actually don't worship the Emperor as a god. Problem was, I couldn't find proof of what chapters didn't. I'm thinking it's almost all chapters that are 1st & 2nd founding. Can anyone point me to a list of which LOYAL chapters don't practice Emperor-worship?

[Nabterayl]

I'm not aware of an official list, but I'm also not aware of any space marine chapter that worships the Emperor as a god.

[Herald of Nurgle]

Indeed. While Chapters - such as the inappropriately named Silver Skulls (Bland Skulls more like) - will 'call upon the Emperor' or something like this, or believe themselves to be doing his divine will, the majority are just doing what their Primarches did - worship him as they would a father (lol) figure.

[wazatdingder]

The only chapter to worship the emperor as a god went chaos.

[Freefall945]

I do remember, particularly in the 3rd ed codex for marines, a section about how Space Marines revere the emperor as a great and powerful hero, a king of men and marines, but not a god, and the Horus Heresy series goes even further into this...

But let's not pretend that anything's fluff is ever entirely consistent. Words like "Holy" and "Divine" and "God-Emperor" are commonplace in space marine rhetoric; not to mention the strong "angels of death" theme about Space Marines which they self-perpetuate.

So some sources say they're merely reverent, other sources suggest God-worship. I don't think anyone's ever taken the time to knuckle down and decide which chapter is which.

[RocketRollRebel]

Indeed. While Chapters - such as the inappropriately named Silver Skulls (Bland Skulls more like) - will 'call upon the Emperor' or something like this, or believe themselves to be doing his divine will, the majority are just doing what their Primarches did - worship him as they would a father (lol) figure.

Electra complex ftw!

[Kahoolin]

I don't know about an official list but wouldn't it be more likely that the later founding chapters were more likely to worship the Emperor as a god than the First Founding? After all, a few of the First Founding's earliest warriors would have known the Emperor personally (or at least seen him), but the further away in time you go from an event the more mythical it becomes.

Who are you more likely to think of as a god - a guy you can see and talk to or a mysterious force with no body?

[Force21]

I'm not aware of an official list, but I'm also not aware of any space marine chapter that worships the Emperor as a god.


I thought The Grey Knights worship The Emperor...


I am not sure though...

[Renegade]

I think I remeber seeing something that said the White Consuls do. Have you tried the Lexicanum (http://www.lexicanum.com/)? Other than that, I have know idea.

[Fellend]

Their rhetoric does not necessarily mean that they worship the Emperor as a God. Saying that they are going on a holy crusade doesn't mean they worship him. It means that it's their faith that drives them (Holy: having a spiritually pure quality:)
And no matter if you believe him to be a god the title God-Emperor is something he has been given by trillions of people who do.

[Nabterayl]

Yeah, "holy" just means "set apart." It's pretty clear that space marines view the Emperor as set apart from the rest of humanity, just as by extension they see themselves as set apart from the rest of humanity.

It's not really clear to me that space marines typically have a religion per se, but they do pretty clearly typically have hero cults (i.e., no god, but plenty of more-than-human figures to whom they give quasi-religious devotion and veneration). The hero cults of ancient Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_hero_cult) are perhaps the best analogy.

Incidentally, I note that Lexicanum points out that the real core of the Imperial Cult (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Cult) is not that the Emperor is a god, but rather that the Emperor is the sovereign, defender, and benefactor of Mankind. The Ecclesiarchy happens to teach that the Emperor is a god, but as long as you believe that the Emperor is Mankind's ultimate sovereign, defender, and benefactor, you believe the core of Imperial religion. Thus, a space marine's hero-cult devotion to the Emperor, while not the version of the Imperial Cult espoused by the Ecclesiarchy, is still a version of the Imperial Cult.

By contrast, if you believe that the Emperor is a god but is not the sovereign, defender, and benefactor of Man, you are a heretic. At the end of the day the Imperial Cult only really cares that the Emperor is the top of your cosmological food chain. It doesn't particularly care how you get the Emperor up there.

[Freefall945]

Their rhetoric does not necessarily mean that they worship the Emperor as a God. Saying that they are going on a holy crusade doesn't mean they worship him. It means that it's their faith that drives them (Holy: having a spiritually pure quality:)
And no matter if you believe him to be a god the title God-Emperor is something he has been given by trillions of people who do.

Well, one could say that I suppose, but I feel that it's more obvious that they use religious terminology because they are religious in some way regarding him.

Space Marines have Chapels, and Chaplains, and the 3rd Ed codex also suggest they spend hours per day in prayer - which is something no one can spin into an agnostic whatever session.

I think the Space Marine creed differs significantly from the Imperial creed, and they probably revere him in a less prostrate manner to pilgrims, but the very -flavour- of the army smacks of paladin.

And that's deliberate - Space Marines are thematically sculpted after european warrior monks like the Knights Templar, and Hospitallers.

Naturally, no one should let this constrain how their chapter views the father of mankind!

[gorepants]

Well, one could say that I suppose, but I feel that it's more obvious that they use religious terminology because they are religious in some way regarding him.

Space Marines have Chapels, and Chaplains, and the 3rd Ed codex also suggest they spend hours per day in prayer - which is something no one can spin into an agnostic whatever session.

I think the Space Marine creed differs significantly from the Imperial creed, and they probably revere him in a less prostrate manner to pilgrims, but the very -flavour- of the army smacks of paladin.

And that's deliberate - Space Marines are thematically sculpted after european warrior monks like the Knights Templar, and Hospitallers.

The prayer aspect seems to owe a lot to the Buddhist style warrior monk as well. Certainly their fervour for the Emperor and the Imperium owes more to militant Christian traditions, but the agnostic/atheistic nature of their spiritual life seems sits closer to Buddhism. It's mostly driven at finding inner peace to more effectively kill stuff (the killing bit is not that close to Buddhism!), and doesn't require any particular God or gods.* They do however revere their work, their tools and their brothers. This also smacks of north European and Greco-Roman religions, which were much closer to tribal animism, and whose gods were much more human. In one of the newer short stories, a new Chaplain is chosen for his violent hatred of the enemy, not his devotion to the Imperial cult.

In short, marines are a hodge-podge of references, though in the fluff they do not (for the most part) worship the Emperor as a literal god.

* In practice the metaphor is mixed, since it would seem they have stripped away the mystical aspects of the imperial cult prevalent in the ecclissarchy, like Zen, but retain a fixation on ritual and litanies, like dharmic Buddhism.

[Freefall945]

The prayer aspect seems to owe a lot to the Buddhist style warrior monk as well. Certainly their fervour for the Emperor and the Imperium owes more to militant Christian traditions, but the agnostic/atheistic nature of their spiritual life seems sits closer to Buddhism. It's mostly driven at finding inner peace to more effectively kill stuff (the killing bit is not that close to Buddhism!), and doesn't require any particular God or gods.* They do however revere their work, their tools and their brothers. This also smacks of north European and Greco-Roman religions, which were much closer to tribal animism, and whose gods were much more human. In one of the newer short stories, a new Chaplain is chosen for his violent hatred of the enemy, not his devotion to the Imperial cult.

In short, marines are a hodge-podge of references, though in the fluff they do not (for the most part) worship the Emperor as a literal god.

* In practice the metaphor is mixed, since it would seem they have stripped away the mystical aspects of the imperial cult prevalent in the ecclissarchy, like Zen, but retain a fixation on ritual and litanies, like dharmic Buddhism.

I'm trying hard, but I don't see it. I don't see how anything about what Space Marines do more closely resembles any religious (or non-religious) group more closely than european crusader-monks. Hatred if the Xenos is a righteous and pious thing as far as the Imperium is concerned! I don't think I've ever seen the phrase "inner peace" used in W40k. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I'd really like to see how you came to that conclusion.

Oh, and I even forgot Black Templar, and the whole -Pray-Until-Someone-Gets-A-Vision-From-The-Emperor-And-That-Dude-Is-His-Champion- thing.

EDIT: Just noticed Nabterayl's post. Touche! The greek hero-cult idea meshes well with the Primarch bit, but I maintain that the lore is inconsistent on how pervasive non-theistic devotion to the Emperor is within the Astartes: Space Marines frequently seem to pray to him, and periodically he responds with divine miracles.

[Fellend]

Then I think you need to read up on bhuddism. Just because I sit down and pray for the power to strike down my enemies does not mean I emulate the christian worship. If I sit down and pray for strenght "Please give me strenght" "Please let me be like you were on the battlefield" "Please let me strike be like yours" "Please let my hatred be like yours" "Please let me fulfill my duty without fear and let me honour the primarchs"
These are prayers but they do not make the Emperor a god. They simply make him the object of my devotions. In the same way little boys and girls asks hope and pray to be like Zlatan on the fotballfield (insert american sports reference there)

Spending hours in prayer is something practiced in many religions. All you need to do is to meditate on your actions and wish for something to happend and you are praying. Zenbuddhism is full of this (infact right now I'm wondering how to say pray TO SOMEONE for help in japanese as they clearly have seperate verb for that)
.
to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2.
to offer (a prayer).
3.
to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
4.
to make earnest petition to (a person).
5.
to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.
6.
to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to god or to an object of worship.
7.
to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.
–verb (used without object)
8.
to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.

As you can see in most cases the word pray aren't even linked to a god.

As far as the Black Templar goes: The champion does not pray untill he he gets a vision. He gets a vision and then goes to the chaplain to recieve the boons . So technically he gets chosen by a higher power. Whether or not he prays for this is not mentioned.
And yes the Black Templar is obviously inspired by the Crusaders as can be seen by their heraldry. But as pointed out before other chapters get their reference from other fighting forces throughout history. Ultramarines from the Spartans/Greeks and Space wolfs from Vikings being the most obvious examples.

[Freefall945]

When people pray to be like a sports hero of some kind, they are doing one of two things:
1. They are legitimately petitioning a divine power which they hope will grant them this athletic boon,
2. They are being insincere.

What they are certainly not doing is praying to the sports star in hopes that will in some way benefit them.

I know plenty about Buddhism, thank you, but I still don't feel it's relevant. What's happening here is definitional warfare, and blurting out a string of definition of the word "prayer" and nailing Space Marines to one of them isn't going to cut it. While prayer can be defined in one manner as simply heartfelt petition to the object of my devotion, a god can be likewise defined as something or someone a person or people deifies, and deification can be defined as exalting or worshipping, which brings us full circle.

The question one really should be asking is "what were the creators of space marines, and those who have successively sculpted their fiction over the years, thinking when they wrote about space marines praying", I think the simplest and most likely answer is that they pray to the emperor because they feel he has some kind of divine power or influence on events.

Prayer may not neccesarilly be to a god, holy may not necessarily refer to divinity, Chaplains may not neccesarilly be guides to matters theological, chapels may not necessarily be places of piety and submission to one's god, crusades might not necessarily be religious endeavors, etcetera etcetera, but exegetically, a kind of god-reverence makes the most sense.

There is lore that says they do not, but I think the most logical thing to conclude is that a number of writers who thought about it deeply decided that Space Marines should not consider the Emperor a divine being but a sort of heroic role model, and the majority of writers, who did not see this as a necessary conclusion to draw, continue to litter the dialogue and background of Space Marines with openly religious connotation.

[Legoklods]

I think the mentors chapter are fairly laid back on the whole divine god emperor thing...

[Gotthammer]

I see it as a form of ancestor worship - he's not a god pre se, but the Emperor exists both in the real world and beyond, in the spirit, so when they pray to him it is more for guidance and for him to enlighten them how to be like him, than for divine intervention.

A lot of Marine rituals are bound up in ancestor worship type rites and prayers to sprits - in Eisenstein Garro gets a new bolter inscribed with the name of each previous bearer and comments on the bolter's spirit serving his friend. Also see the rites of prayer to their armour's spirit.
I see their worship of the Emperor as the same thing, a sort of medative reflection of 'how can I be like the Emperor?' mixed with 'hey Emperor, show me how to be like you'. They're not expecting any miracles from him, but focussing their minds on the Emperor's (or Primarch's) perfect example of what they should be.

Using the sports star analogy, in my view, it is the same thing as sticking pictures of Michael Jordan all over your room, joinig his fan club, wearing his jersey all the time, buying anything with his face on it, following everything he says to do in ads or PSAs, going to every game, and writing him letters about how you want to be like him one day. Someone with that mindset, when going out onto a b-ball court, will be thinking 'what would Jordan do?', and perhaps even look into the stands vainly in the hope their hero shows up to see them (after all, they wrote him a dozen letters).

Then make Jordan a psychic (so he can hear thoughts) superbeing and then that hero-worship, infused with 40k's 'everything has a spirit' and tangible spirit realm and presto - it wouldn't be too much of a stretch in the 40kverse to imagine that same fan looking up at the stands and seeing a billboard with Jordan on it and going 'it's a sign! Jordan is with me and has used his incomprehensible powers to show me he approves of my course of action!'

Make Michael Jordan the Emperor, and he may look like a god to the uneducated masses fooled by the Ecclesiarcy, but the Marines know better, that he is just the supreme example of humanity who should be idolised and is a source of inspiration and aspiration.

[Freefall945]

I get that idea, and certainly agree that space marines have a great deal of sacred reverence for their predecessors and especially their primarch.

However, when Garro prays to his bolter to thank it for serving his friend, or when marines pray to the armor they are about to wear, they're not doing this as an idiosyncratic moment of lucky charm-rubbing. This is no rabbits foot, or Michael Jordan poster! They actually believe, and are told, that their machines are possessed of a spirit which needs to be regularly appeased and honored in order for it to function. They are sincere in their communication to their wargear, they are not simply offering external private meditation. I would submit to you that it follows they are sincere in their worship of the Emperor.

I feel a lot of what is miscommunicated here is incorrect. Certainly, the unwashed masses of the Imperium think of the Emperor as a Monotheistic God - omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient. Follow his dictates! The Emperor is watching, and judges your heart!

My analysis leads me to believe that Space marines generally view their father more like a Zeus figure; far away on Mount Olympus. His knowledge and power far exceeds their own and prayers to him are sincere gestures of piety and worship, though they do not feel his is present everywhere, all powerful, and absolutely all knowing.

Half of the arguments I'm reading here say "They don't think of him as a God, but a man, because" which could be readilly re-written to say "They don't think of him as THE God, but a god, because".

[Nabterayl]

I think the important point is that a space marine would not say that he thinks of the Emperor as a god. We can quibble all day about what qualities an entity needs to have in order to be considered a "god," but for purposes of this discussion, what's really important is how a space marine would think about it.

I think the Zeus analogy is getting closer, but it still makes the Emperor a god figure. I think it's more accurate to say that a space marine views the Emperor as a Hercules figure. Like Hercules (at least in the Archaic era), the Emperor is thought to have been a hero of old, a literal human being, but one who exhibited such prowess as had never been seen before and will never be seen again, who is not now and never was a god, but who nevertheless can be said to exist in some form in the present day, to whom a man might look as an exemplar and of whom a man might make requests.

Or if you can't think of these things except in Christian terms, imagine an order of warrior monks who believe that they are descended from Michael and pray to Michael not as their god but as an angel. Now imagine that these monks don't believe in any gods that are on their side - they do believe in gods, beings that are of a higher order than Michael, but all the gods they think exist are out to get mankind, and Michael leads a heroic effort against them, angel fighting against gods, hopelessly outclassed and yet somehow - impossibly, irrationally, inspirationally - holding his own.

[Fellend]

Well that is just twisting our words. Saying they don't think of him as a god BECAUSE means exactly that. We provide examples or why it is so. Not just because the fluff tells is that the space marine does not believe that he is a god but also because comparing it straight of with modern day religion doesn't work.

For one thing the Emperor does exist. His miracles are real, the legion of the damned appear out of nowhere when they are needed. People survive orbital bombardment by faith alone and he grants superpowers through visions.
So praying to the Emperor for faith and strenght to fight a bloodthrister can be compared to asking your father to beat up that bully that keeps hitting you. Unlike "God" the Emperor might actually smite the bloodthirsters, (more likely fill you with holy rage and make you do it). That does not make Him a God. That makes Him the most powerful psyker to ever have existed. And that is a example for every space marine. He is a warrior that can fight death by will alone, He is an example above all examples. He is the shield and the protector. But even so, He is a man and even though He posess divine qualities He is not a god.

It makes me think of the quote "technology is magic for the unenlightened" Just as the Emperor appears to be a god for the mortal men, the more enlightened and those closer to Him can see that He is infact a man. A man worthy of prayer, your devotion and faith but still a man.


Taken from lexicanum who in turn took it from an article posted in White Dwarf
0400 - Morning Prayer - Led by the Company Chaplain the Space Marines renew their oaths to the Emperor and the company relics are displayed. This time is also used to give out orders, announcements and other administrative tasks.

Also taken from lexicanum: unknown original source
The precepts of the Imperial Cult, called the Imperial Creed, include the belief that all of humanity must be brought into the Imperium, the abhorrence of aliens, the realization that psykers and mutation among humanity is a dire threat which must be controlled. All of these precepts have their origins with what the Emperor himself preached during the Great Crusade.

While the ordinary citizen believes that the Emperor has always been venerated as an immortal and omnipotent god, this was not always the case. At the beginning of the Emperor's Great Crusade the Imperium functioned very differently. Firstly there was no Ecclesiarchy and the veneration of the Emperor, in the form of a cult known as the Lectitio Divinitatus, was frowned upon. The official Imperial doctrine was that the Emperor was an extremely powerful being, rightful ruler of all mankind, and the perfect image of humanity, but no matter how supreme, still a human being. During the Great Crusade however, many ordinary Imperial citizens found that the light of reason and truth brought by the Emperor was not enough, and they took to worshiping him as a deity1.

The Emperor became an object of general veneration following the Horus Heresy and his internment within the Golden Throne on Terra. Over the following decades many individual Imperial cults sprang up throughout the Imperium, with their central theme being the redemption of humanity through the Emperor's self-sacrifice. After a few hundred years a single cult known as the Ecclesiarchy was formed from the unification of a number of smaller cults, which gradually absorbed the main body of believers. In M32 this cult became the official religion of the Imperium, gaining the title of Adeptus Ministorum. Remaining cults were persecuted and mostly destroyed.



As you can see. Originally (and still among the space marines) He's not worshiped as a God but as a supreme human being to which all shall aspire and obey.

Note on chaplains and the Emperor (yep lexicanum)
Each Chapter has its own unique cult, which is often thousands of years old. As these cults often predate the rise of the Ecclesiarchy and the general worship of the Emperor, the Chapter cults are not simply facets of the common Imperial cult of the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy and its parishioners (its lay followers) worship the Emperor as the most divine god. Although the reverence Space Marines have for the Emperor borders on actual worship, he is supposedly not seen as an actual god by some, but as a brilliant and inspirational man. As in all things, this view of the Emperor's divine status or lack thereof varies from Chapter to Chapter. The Space Marine cults are more ancient than the cult of the Ecclesiarchy, and their specific practices often primitive and barbaric. The chapter's own Primarch is also a major part of the Chapter's specific cult, revered as much as the Emperor.

Within a Chapter's fortress-monastery is the Reclusiam, a large chamber devoted to cult activities, and where the Chapter's holy relics and, sometimes, the body of its Primarch, are housed. The Chaplains lead their sermons from here, and rouse the Marines in their love of the Emperor. The battle barges and ships of the Chapter's fleet also include huge cathedrals in the heart of each ship, allowing the Space Marines to pray while away from the fortress. Chaplains always lead the Space Marines in prayer, but a Chaplain is not always needed for a Marine to pray.

This is all I can find atm (it's 02.00 give me a break) but yeah. Space marines are mostly agnostic, they just love their grandfather

[Just_Me]

As a general rule, we are given to believe that Astartes venerate the Emperor, but (most) do not see him as a "god." What this means specifically is very difficult to pin down (as this thread has shown), and probably varies from chapter to chapter. Most likely this is some sort of philosophical atavism, chapters have long memories, and some of the most ancient ones may have traditions passed down from generation to generation that recall, in some dim form, the Emperor's original mandate was a secular atheistic one and forbid his worship (for the Space Wolves at least Bjorn the Fellhanded could tell them all of that from first hand experience). They may insist that they do not see the Emperor as a "god" as a technicality of sorts (one that they may not even fully understand), even though in every meaningful way they conduct deific worship.

In other cases they may sincerely offer veneration to him without seeing him as a god. Consider, regardless of what country you belong to there are almost invariably traditions associated with that nation's flag, how it must be folded, handled, national anthems, etc. Most of these have all of the trappings of religious ceremony, but who among us would argue that the flag is a god, or even that there is actually anything inherently divine about the cloth itself? Nevertheless we do honor the idea that said cloth embodies with actions and traditions that could quite reasonably be described as worship. In this sense an Astartes might venerate the idea of what the Emperor represents, and what he symbolizes and stands for, even if they do not believe the person of the Emperor to be divine.

In addition, we must separate "superstition" from worship. You may be wary of saying "it can't get any worse" or have a tradition of tapping a doorjam as you leave the locker room to , or a soldier may keep the piece of shrapnel that caught in his vest collar instead of ripping out his throat, without being religiously motivated. These actions may be irrational, and may not be motivated by any honest belief that they appease some "fate" or "power," but nevertheless they are [I]strong, and they can offer great comfort. I myself am an atheist and a rationalist, but I still cannot help but "say" a little formless "prayer" in my head when I roll the dice, and I would rather use my own than anyone else's. These actions are for the benefit of one's own peace of mind, rather than for some other force. In such a way an Astartes might say a benediction, asking that the Emperor guide himself and his brothers in the battle without believing that this means anything to the Emperor, or even that the Emperor is divine, but taking comfort in the act of saying it as a reassurance of his commitment.

Finally, the Greco-Roman hero cult format that has been pointed out is a very good analogy to what I would imagine the Astartes worship of the Emperor to be. And the parallel of most animistic faiths to 40k is very strong, particularly where the Mechanicus is concerned.

To my mind the underlying issue here is one of how do you define "god?" If the defining characteristic is simply a being of vast power, far beyond that of even the greatest of normal men, then by any rational argument you must say that the Emperor is a god; he does have vast powers, and he literally can "hear" and sometimes even answer "prayers." The issue is that we are so caught up in a Judeo-Christian definition of "god" that we believe that there must be something inherently "special" (and poorly defined) about a being with the label of "god."

It's an old sci-fi trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SufficientlyAdvancedAlien); even though you have powers that let you part the red sea, make and unmake matter at will, and reshape reality at your whim, you are not a "god." But really, why the hell not? if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, why shouldn't I conclude that it is in fact, a duck? At some point the question becomes moot, and, all theological debate aside, the Emperor is a god because he has all the powers of a god.

[Freefall945]

Nabertayl: I'm perfectly capable of thinking of things in non-Christian terms (what is with the condescension in this thread?) but -any- analogy to Christian (or Jewish, or Muslim) theology breaks down over the oppositional element because in such Monotheisms there is no competition between Good and Evil - Good is Good, and will always win, and Evil is twisted, spiteful, and destined to lose. Evil in 40k is not only competitive but seems fated for victory.

As for the Zeus Vs Hercules idea, the only real division you've presented between Zeus and Hercules is that Hercules is, on some kind of nonspecific level, less powerful than a God, and isn't directly called one. Since we're not sweating the nomenclature, we basically agree here - the Space Marines think of the Emperor as a great fellow, far away, who defies death and battles evil with his cosmic power in some fashion, and co-incidentally defines righteousness. This is the -same way- that people historically consider gods in many cases. Space Marines might not use the word -except when they say God-Emperor, which I am willing to concede "doesn't count" being as the term is so ubiquitous in the Imperium.

Fellend: The problem with your arguement is that you don't seem to explicitly express what you think a God is. Your only given qualification for something to be a God is that it must not exist! By such logic, if I was to play D&D, the gods in it exist and actively intervene in the affairs of mortals and are therefore not gods but powerful men! Additionally, I know a lot of Christians who would be offended by the suggestion that their God doesn't perform miracles, never walked on earth, and doesn't give powers through visions.

I'm aware of that little piece of lore you've posted and have referred to it - it's reprinted in the 3rd Ed Codex - but that doesn't change the fact that depicted marine behavior varies from the smirking athiest warrior which some have tried to paint the marines as.

Additionally, the direct quote you've provided says...


he is supposedly not seen as an actual god by some, but as a brilliant and inspirational man.

Note the "Some" which is exactly what I've saying - it seems to vary from chapter to chapter. I am not speaking in absolutes! I am sure there are marines who are very strict in the way they regard the emperor as simply a man. I'm just saying marines are rarely if ever depicted in such a way, post-heresy.

Just-Me: Excellent summary, though I'm sure most Astartes would kick you in half for suggesting that their prayers to the Emperor might be a deluded self-soothing mechanism and in no way an actual plea to the father in Terra!

[Kahoolin]

Seems to me the problem with this debate is that you guys have all analyzed this far more deeply than any GW writer ever has!

I think it's safe to assume that when a GW writer says "god" they mean something more like a Christian or Islamic conception of god, i.e. a being that is omnipotent, indescribable, cannot be associated with any other being, and perhaps created the universe or whatever. I think this is a safe assumption to make since the GW universe was created and is primarily marketed towards English speakers and Europeans. So it is natural that when the writers use a word they mean what we normally think they would mean by that word. I think if anyone disagrees with this, the onus is on them to show why the GW writers do not mean what we normally mean in a western cultural context when we use the word "god."

So assuming that they do mean what we normally mean, all that it means when a GW writer says "marines do not consider the Emperor a god" is that the marines do not consider the Emperor a god in the same way Christians envision god (which seems to be the sense in which ordinary Imperial citizens understand the Emperor's divinity by the way).

So all the writers are trying to say is that astartes don't normally feel the Emperor to be an eternal being who is always literally watching them and controlling the universe. Other than that they run the gamut of religious expression, though if any of them are atheists, agnostic or nontheistic in a sort of Buddhist sense (as someone has strangely tried to suggest) I would submit that they need their heads examined! Magic and beings of monstrous supernatural power obviously exist in a literal sense in the 40k universe, and marines spend their whole lives fighting them and their servants.

To put it simply, astartes think of the Emperor as a god, but not the sort of god we think of under normal circumstances when we hear the term "god." It's probably much more likely that they consider the Emperor a god in a heroic or polytheistic sense, since, as I said above, they know for a fact other gods exist. They are hardly going to deny the Emperor's supernatural nature when his supernatural power is manifest in his servants every day.

They certainly aren't atheists, agnostics or Buddhists. That would just be silly.

[Fellend]

Fellend: The problem with your arguement is that you don't seem to explicitly express what you think a God is. Your only given qualification for something to be a God is that it must not exist! By such logic, if I was to play D&D, the gods in it exist and actively intervene in the affairs of mortals and are therefore not gods but powerful men! Additionally, I know a lot of Christians who would be offended by the suggestion that their God doesn't perform miracles, never walked on earth, and doesn't give powers through visions.

I'm aware of that little piece of lore you've posted and have referred to it - it's reprinted in the 3rd Ed Codex - but that doesn't change the fact that depicted marine behavior varies from the smirking athiest warrior which some have tried to paint the marines as.

Additionally, the direct quote you've provided says...

Quote:
he is supposedly not seen as an actual god by some, but as a brilliant and inspirational man.

Yes it varies, I'm simply admitting that there are some chapters that venerate Him as a god. With over a thousand chapters with most of them lacking any form of information it would be silly of me to deny the possibility. But all the major chapters do infact not see Him as a god.
And I think your argument is invalid. Because the question if I'm not completely mistaken is not whether the Emperor is a God or not (as pointed out, most likely he is) the question is whether Space marines worship him as a god. And they do In fact not. Besides the loads of stuff I've quoted saying so. Besides the different theories and comparisons with religions from real life the most Important thing here is that it says they do NOT.

No matter how you decide to see thier worship simply fact is that they do not see Him as a God. They pray to him, they venerate him, they see him as the all-father but they KNOW He is just a man. Because they've been taught so. (Read the space wolf book, where the new scout gets shocked by the fact that He isn't a god but infact is a man)

I am not trying to qualify what is or is not a god because it's not relevant. The Emperor most likely is a god as He is surely as powerful as the Chaos Gods (who are as far as we know are gods and nothing else) What is relevant here is whether the space marines believe He is a god. And they do not as pointed out with references and all.

And I don't agree with the fact that they are depicted as worshipping Him as a god. Infact in none of the books I've read do they ever do so. Personally I think Dawn of war two examplifies their belief in Him and themselves with the quote "I am fearless, I am death, I AM INVINCIBLE" this is their faith. The faith in themselves and the Emperor as their protector and father. They have as far as I know never depicted them as worshipping Him as a god.

And whether not God exists or performs miracles I'm not touching with a 20-foot pole

[Nabterayl]

This is all I can find atm (it's 02.00 give me a break) but yeah. Space marines are mostly agnostic, they just love their grandfather
That ... isn't actually agnosticism. Agnostic marines would say, "Well, the Emperor might be a god, and he might not be a god. Frankly, I don't know." That's definitely not the marine attitude.


Nabertayl: I'm perfectly capable of thinking of things in non-Christian terms (what is with the condescension in this thread?) but -any- analogy to Christian (or Jewish, or Muslim) theology breaks down over the oppositional element because in such Monotheisms there is no competition between Good and Evil - Good is Good, and will always win, and Evil is twisted, spiteful, and destined to lose. Evil in 40k is not only competitive but seems fated for victory.
No condescension intended. I'm sorry if I phrased myself poorly. And I'm aware that Abrahamic religions don't make a good cosmological analogy. I really think this is more like a hero cult than anything else. The reason I think hero cults are a useful example is because they belong to a religion that also has gods - the difference between Zeus and Hercules may seem fuzzy to modern eyes, but to a Greek in 700 B.C.E. the difference would have been quite clear.

[Madness]

On the other hand Marines do regard themselves as demigods when compared to "puny" humans. If the emperor is in fact a god and they see themselves as half gods, they might half worship him.

Silly and very banalized explaination, but I trust you can abstract the rest from here.

[Fellend]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellend View Post
This is all I can find atm (it's 02.00 give me a break) but yeah. Space marines are mostly agnostic, they just love their grandfather
That ... isn't actually agnosticism. Agnostic marines would say, "Well, the Emperor might be a god, and he might not be a god. Frankly, I don't know." That's definitely not the marine attitude.


Yeah sorry, it was late. (like it is now actually.) What I meant was that they don't believe in the Emperor as a god. But I don't know if they believe in gods at all. There's as far as I know not any evidence of them believing that the Chaos Gods are gods. They are refered to as ruinous powers an occasionally "your gods". But if you look at the Horus Heresy novels (and assume that their believes haven't changed that much) they aren't actually called gods but beings of the warp.

[Fellend]

On the other hand Marines do regard themselves as demigods when compared to "puny" humans. If the emperor is in fact a god and they see themselves as half gods, they might half worship him.

Silly and very banalized explaination, but I trust you can abstract the rest from here.

Whah? What? You mean because they know they are superior human beings they know that the Emperor is superior to them?

[Madness]

What I mean is that marines perceive themselves to be very close to the emperor, by close I mean "similar to", so it stands to reason that they don't Worship him, but *really* look up to him instead.

[Nabterayl]

But I don't know if they believe in gods at all. There's as far as I know not any evidence of them believing that the Chaos Gods are gods. They are refered to as ruinous powers an occasionally "your gods". But if you look at the Horus Heresy novels (and assume that their believes haven't changed that much) they aren't actually called gods but beings of the warp.
That's definitely a fair point. Now that I think about it, most of the marine cult traditions would date back to the Great Crusade in one way or another, either directly or through the traditions inherited from their founding chapters, and the Emperor wasn't exactly god-friendly back then. It would make sense if most marines believed in no gods at all as an extension of that tradition (even if their chapter records don't necessarily reach back that far - few Imperial records seem to). Goodness knows marines are fairly isolated from the Ecclesiarchy, so if the Emperor's antitheistic beliefs were to survive anywhere, I suppose the space marines would be it.

[Kahoolin]

Goodness knows marines are fairly isolated from the Ecclesiarchy, so if the Emperor's antitheistic beliefs were to survive anywhere, I suppose the space marines would be it.Actually yeah, I think I now agree with the idea that marines couldn't really believe in gods. It's important to remember that the 40k universe is not our universe. It actually has beings that can warp reality according to their will - in other words beings with magic powers.

In our world, no matter what your culture, a god is a purported being with supernatural powers (in fact I'd be interested to see if anyone can think of a god that isn't). Whether or not someone believes in a god in our world really tells you whether or not they believe in magic. In the 40k universe you can't really not believe in magic, it is demonstrably as real as the laws of physics. Everyone knows psykers exist. Some people (including marines) know daemons exist. The Emperor, unlike any god in human history in the real world, has proven supernatural ability.

Keeping that in mind, marines probably don't believe in any gods. It's not a question of belief when the facts are staring you in the face. Marines know their history, we would assume. They know that the Emperor was a powerful human psyker and a great human war leader, but they also know that he is crippled or possibly dead. Perhaps they poetically revere his memory in their warrior rituals, but the real manner in which they worship him is through deeds - they continue to fight his fight and defend his human flock even though he no longer leads them physically. That could certainly be seen as a sacred duty, but I'm not sure it's the same thing as worship.

[Madness]

Yet they do believe in unproven supernatural entities, like the wolf who guards the "heaven" doors in SW lore.

[Kahoolin]

Yet they do believe in unproven supernatural entities, like the wolf who guards the "heaven" doors in SW lore.Yeah, so they have hangovers from the ancient cultures of Terra and their homeworlds. But the Emperor is not an unproven supernatural entity. It's like they were sworn retainers of a king who died and they are just continuing to fight his battles for eternity.

Actually it's not like that, it IS that :D

[Nabterayl]

Yet they do believe in unproven supernatural entities, like the wolf who guards the "heaven" doors in SW lore.

True, but that belief predates the Emperor's arrival on Fenris, and thus significantly predates the belief that the Emperor is a god.

I don't think this is a question of marine hyper-rationality so much as marine independence. The belief in the Emperor's divinity began only after the Emperor's ascendancy, by which point the marine legions had their own cults already established. Since marine chapters are only about the size of a mid-sized high school, and since the psychological stability of each chapter is already pushed to the limits (and very closely balanced), it would be very difficult for one of the new cults preaching the Emperor's divinity to infiltrate the newly founded chapters. Even when the Emperor's divinity became Imperial law (which took several millennia, remember), marine chapters are not subject to the jurisdiction of the Adeptus Ministorum, so there's no legal pressure for marine beliefs to conform to the norm. In fact, the rosarius that each marine chaplain wears is a constant reminder that the Adeptus Ministorum has given up trying to convert the space marines.

So the question that needs to be answered, I think, is where the impetus to believe in the Emperor's divinity would come from.

EDIT: I also don't think we can just assume that marines know more about the Emperor than everybody else. I don't see any reason to believe that marine records about the Heresy are, in general, more complete or accurate than other people's. Yes, they have stories about the Primarchs, but so does the common Imperial subject - neither guarantees that the stories told about the Primarchs are accurate. But even without accurate records, it seems to me like the preponderance of social forces would be against marines believing in the divinity of the Emperor.

[Kahoolin]

I also don't think we can just assume that marines know more about the Emperor than everybody else. I don't see any reason to believe that marine records about the Heresy are, in general, more complete or accurate than other people's. Yes, they have stories about the Primarchs, but so does the common Imperial subject - neither guarantees that the stories told about the Primarchs are accurate. But even without accurate records, it seems to me like the preponderance of social forces would be against marines believing in the divinity of the Emperor.I agree with the last part of this, but I think it's pretty likely that marines' knowledge would be more accurate than most. For one thing, the average person in the Imperium seems to think the Emperor is omniscient and omnipotent (as evidenced by such sayings as "the Emperor protects")!

Marines are, as you said, small self-contained cults. They are also extremely long-lived as individuals. Of course after so long inconsistencies would creep in, but I think those two characteristics would point toward at least a semblance of accuracy in their thinking.

[Madness]

AFAIK the emperor never wanted to be worshipped, as of now he's being used as a tool to sell officially issued fake plastic rosarii to the general public and make the Ecclesiarchy a ton of money.

Marines do worship the Emperor in the same extent in which a young basketball player worships his favourite NBA player.

Plus marines have mystical b/s beliefs but those have nothing to do with the emprah.

[Nabterayl]

I agree with the last part of this, but I think it's pretty likely that marines' knowledge would be more accurate than most. For one thing, the average person in the Imperium seems to think the Emperor is omniscient and omnipotent (as evidenced by such sayings as "the Emperor protects")!

Marines are, as you said, small self-contained cults. They are also extremely long-lived as individuals. Of course after so long inconsistencies would creep in, but I think those two characteristics would point toward at least a semblance of accuracy in their thinking.
Marines might happen to have a more accurate picture of the Emperor than most, but I'm not sure that's because their records are any better than anybody else's. At this point, I think, any accuracy in marines' beliefs about the Emperor are largely accidental. I imagine two conversations:


Conversation 1
Imperial Subject: The Emperor is a god!
Marine: No he isn't!
Imperial Subject: Heresy! What makes you say that?!
Marine: Well, these records in our chapter librarium clearly show that the Emperor isn't a god.
Imperial Subject: By the Throne, you're right! These are so much more accurate than my records!

Conversation 2
Imperial Subject: The Emperor is a god!
Marine: No he isn't!
Imperial Subject: Heresy! What makes you say that?!
Marine: Well, uh, come to think of it ... that's just what we've always believed. Truth is, what few primary records our librarium contains are pretty fragmented and unreliable.
Imperial Subject: Well, what we've always believed is that the Emperor is a god! Though, come to think of it, what few primary records we have on that subject are pretty fragmented and unreliable ...
Marine: So, uh ... yeah.
Imperial Subject: Yeah ...

I reckon #2 is a lot closer to the truth (though both of course are exaggerations). I mean, if you think about it, not even the Ecclesiarchy teaches that the Emperor was always a god. It teaches (when it bothers to preach on this subject at all, which I imagine is very infrequently) that the Emperor was the mightiest man who ever lived, who became a god after he ascended the Golden Throne. No amount of even the most accurate, well-preserved Heresy-era documents can disprove that.

EDIT:
AFAIK the emperor never wanted to be worshipped, as of now he's being used as a tool to sell officially issued fake plastic rosarii to the general public and make the Ecclesiarchy a ton of money.
I'm not even sure this is true anymore. Certainly we know that the Emperor never wanted to be worshiped during his lifetime. The real question is, did things change after his duel with Horus? The Ecclesiarchy claims that it did, and honestly, it's not too hard to believe that they're right. And something happened to Alicia Dominica to lead her to believe that the Emperor blessed her worship of him. Maybe it wasn't the Emperor speaking to her mind ... but is it so hard to believe that he would have changed his mind after the Heresy? Releasing the reins of mankind never seems to have been very high on the Emperor's list of things to do. I don't find it too hard to believe that he decided, if he couldn't rule mankind as an emperor, he would at least rule mankind as a god.

[Kahoolin]

Marines might happen to have a more accurate picture of the Emperor than most, but I'm not sure that's because their records are any better than anybody else's. At this point, I think, any accuracy in marines' beliefs about the Emperor are largely accidental.Ah, but now we're getting into justification. I agree with you, the marine's beliefs are based on received tradition exactly like a Missionary's - it's just that the marine's beliefs happen to be more accurate.

So a missionary has an unjustified true belief in a falsehood. A marine has an unjustified true belief in a more accurate falsehood ;)

[Nabterayl]

Ah, but now we're getting into justification. I agree with you, the marine's beliefs are based on received tradition exactly like a Missionary's - it's just that the marine's beliefs happen to be more accurate.

So a missionary has an unjustified true belief in a falsehood. A marine has an unjustified true belief in a more accurate falsehood ;)
Oh, totally agreed. And this is largely how we explain the discrepancy between the marines' seemingly "rational" beliefs about the Emperor, and their seemingly "irrational" belief in entities like the World Wolf, or whatever other superstition your favorite chapter of choice believes in.

[Madness]

Also the marines have no conflict of intrests in the matter, so it's unlikely that they will alter the narrative. With the exception of some weirdo chapter that might fancy the word bearers approach. But on the average the marines know that they have some emperor juice in them and that the emperor is just a very badass primarch, and a primarch is a very badass marine.

[AirHorse]

I should also probaly point out that the term god is a pretty relative one, well it has been through human history anyway. A god can range from a bunch of big *** giants through stuff like the greek olympiads to the christian omnipresent ideal.

[hellbringer]

The Soul Drinkers come to mind. They kind of appear to be like Cypher in that neither of them fit within the Imperium's strict ideas of how to help themselves. But they aren't necessarily trying to hurt the Imperium either.

[Freefall945]

So I guess we've come to a reasonably straightforward agreement on the marines, and how they regard the emperor. Let me summaries, and from there shoot me down if you like!

1. Space marines, largely, do not consider the emperor a god.

2. Like everything else with Marines, there will be exceptions.

3. Space marines nonetheless perform acts - praying, blessing, memorizing holy texts - typically associated with the worship of gods, but this does not necessarily make them theists.

4. The emperor has great deals of cosmic power, and sometimes indeed intervenes in mortal affairs.

5. This does not make the marines particularly wrong or the common man particularly right, as they seem to mean different things when they claim the emperor is, or isn't, a God.

How's that?

[Nabterayl]

Sounds right to me.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Well only the Raven Guard's write up says explicitly that they DO NOT think of the Emp as a God. I think most other Legions / chapters are some ware closer to God Worship then the RG.

[mr1029384756]

I thought The Grey Knights worship The Emperor...


I am not sure though...

They're also mind-wipped fanatics with Astartes bodies and psyker powers - Paladins out of inhuman conditioning more than anything else. Still badasses though...