Question About Tyranids

[Xzarol]

Hey there, I'm just a curious Imperial Guard / Daemonhunter player out in the US, and I was wondering if anyone else in a gaming group is running into a bunch of trouble with the new Tyranid Codex.

I'm not the best player in the world, but I think I tend to run decently aggressive lists and I have what I think is an okay grasp on what I should fire at.

I was wondering, is there any sort of stratagem in particular, or even any tips on beating the new Codex? This particular Tyranid player is running a scary Min-Max build of Tyranid with an ungodly amount of T6 multi-wound models.

I generally run a balanced list that maintains a couple of Russes, a couple of Artillery, Melta-Squads and multiple flyers.

Anyway, all tips are appreciated!

And if you are reading this Drew, I hate you in the most loving way possible. =)

[Vaktathi]

I actually have had pretty much the exact opposite impression, I have yet to play a game against them where it I didn't end up with a total massacre. Hell, my first two games I tabled my nid opponent without taking so much as a single glancing hit or even having to make an armor save.

Generally Tyranids will have a hard time with vehicles and anything mobile. Tyranids lack the plethora of organic AT weaponry that Imperial armies have. Flamers, even in relatively few numbers, make a mess of their troops, and the AT fire that most armies now pack tends to also burn the MC's down pretty quickly too.

That said, for beating Tyranids, shoot the big ones first! As always :D

[Lord Azaghul]

Zenthopes are awesome. Kill them first, then the hivetyrants, then the warriors, then those little gaunt poopers.

Target priority is very important against the 'nids. Make sure you concentrate fire to bring those MC's down.
Autocannons are fantastic, so are plasma cannons, and also mass firied lasguns can be very effective to put those last one or two wounds one 'em.

Actually I've found the new 'nid book very competative, their 'pods' are nasty delivery system, and a well built list will go along way. The 'nid army loves having cover, more so then the IG so the table can effect them alot.

[TSINI]

I used my nids for the first time a few weeks ago

they are a bit of a tactical nightmare to begin with, partly because i have decided to field "no guns"

so the only ranged attacks i have are the occasional template attack, a few psychic powers and some electrostatic weapons from trygons.

We played a Battle mission scenario where the space marine player sets up in a corner and gets preffered enemy, and the terrain is dangerous, and the nids get stealth.

i got slaughtered.

a few points were raised. monstrous creatures die when under any massed fire (2 fexes died from bolter fire and a few plasma(or melta i forget) fire.

blast weapons take out the big squads of hormagaunts - which also interestingly enough, don't do much damage in H2H against anything with a decent armour save, the ATSKNF also doesnt help much.

I just don't believe that nids have the staying power to force an assault through massed marines. IG yes, and anything below, but anything MEQ or better are just dificult to deal with without getting the big monsters into combat quickly.

The two monsters i expected to do well in H2H - the trygon and mawloc, were also a let down, they don't have enough attacks to take on a full squad of 10, let alone 2 squads - which is what they eventually will be encountering because they will be assaulted the turn they arrive by everything nearby.

I will probably be experimenting with mycetic spores next, but the problem with these is they just get your lone monsters into short range fire quicker, especially with all your nid reserves almost garunteed on the table turn 1 and 2. (i really wish you could purposefully hold some things back at least 1 turn when they become available)

I know this is all talking from the other perspective, but what you can take from this is:

Marines - shoot the big monsters with the small arms fire, hit the dangerous gribblies with the heavy hitting cannons, and take on the small monsters in H2H

IG and below - Pray to god you can kill everything early before they get to you

TAU - just prey to a god of your choosing

[Lord Azaghul]

The two monsters i expected to do well in H2H - the trygon and mawloc, were also a let down, they don't have enough attacks to take on a full squad of 10, let alone 2 squads - which is what they eventually will be encountering because they will be assaulted the turn they arrive by everything nearby.



I was kinda suprised by them too. Whatever one can pop up from the ground was the biggest suprise. It didn't last 2 round of shooting from my IG, lasguns become rather awesome when either firing 3 shots or TL against MC's, add in the occational melta or plasam near the MC and it really doesn't last too long.

[Bigred]

Moving this to 40k Tactics for improved responses.

[synack]

I was wondering how long it would take this thread to pop up here. If it's the build I'm thinking of, you're going to have trouble.

Having played the build the first time this weekend, I can say that it's a hard list to beat. The only reason I lost my game is cause we were playing kill points and my opponent did a good job of keep stuff alive, while he just killed my meat shields for KP, if the game hadn't ended on turn 5, I might have pulled a win, but such is life.

Anyway, my suggestion is, ignore the center of the swarm, go for the T6 units with the least amount of wounds and won't be regenerating the wounds.

Be very mobile and stay away and shoot. Of course, if you've built a CC army, you're in a tough spot.

[Judge]

I've beaten Space Wolves quite handily with the new 'Nids. I've also obliterated a 1,500 point 'Nid army by the top of Round 4 with a Blood Angels mechanized force (with Mephiston) after taking only ~350 points damage myself. The Doom of Malan'Tai is simply the best unit you can get for 200 point quick battles (no HQs or Heavy Support, ha ha). It is displeasing that Tyranid swarm troops, for which they're noted in DoWII and fluff, are only effective against non-marines.

- 11/34 Tyranid unit choices are now Toughness 6. 14/34 are Toughness 4. Only 5/34 are Toughness 3, but these are spam units.
- Against IG, Monstrous Creatures and spam are both effective.
- Regular lasgun IG troops can kill the spam with Rapid Fire more cost effectively than Heavy Bolters. Survivors will be assaulted, but with most of the swarm dead, this shouldn't be too much of a problem.
- Maximize your template weapons, to include flamers and Battle Cannons, on tanks, but keep these as secondary to maximizing melta, plasma, and traditional rocket launchers in squads which can potentially cause multiple T6 wounds per round.
- Target Tyranid Warriors with Str 8+, AP4 and below weapons as a priority, as instant killing is the only cost effective way of dealing with them.
- When possible, avoid Hull Mounted addons / expensive sponsons. Why pay 60 points for a Lascannon when you could have two squad based missile launchers instead, especially when you can't fire that Lascannon alongside Ordnance?
- To most Tyranids, there's no difference between a Battle Cannon and a Demolisher Cannon, or a Lascannon and a Missile Launcher, so pick your prices accordingly.
- Maximize range as much as possible - start high firepower, low durability units at the far rear of your deployment zones. Some of these will be assaulted by Deep Striking units, but you'll get a round of shooting first, so pick them off as they appear.
- Utilize as much of your starting zone as possible to put some distance between individual Guard units in order to maximize range, give you clear lines of fire, and slow down Tyranid assaults from one unit to another.
- Ban the Doom of Malan'Tai from games whenever possible. This unit is devastating, and another excellent argument for spreading your troops out. The moment it appears, kill it anyway you can. Normal lasguns can do the trick, though it can be instant killed by rockets (3+ invulnerable save).
- Embed Melta and Plasma weapons in your regular squads whenever possible to shoot the big ones when they come into range.
- Tyranids now have some effective shooting troops, but these are much more dangerous to low armour vehicles than high armour vehicles.
- Remember that your vehicles can move, pivot, and shoot. Make Monstrous Creatures chase you if they want to kill you in melee.
- Melta vets. in a Chimera are almost as effective against big bugs as they are against tanks, and some big bugs have fewer wounds for cost than others.
- If you need objectives near the middle, go for them late-game. After four rounds of shooting, they should be much more approachable than after only 2 rounds of shooting.
- Swarmlord without Tyrant Guard = pincushion.

Here's a perspective from a Tyranid player's point of view if it helps - should help you pick out the weak points.

From a Tyranid perspective, your biggest choke point will be elites - there are too many good options. HQ options are a mixed bag, being costly, but effective based on what you field them against. Troop choices are poor, except for Tyranid Warriors, which are excellent when they're not instant killed, or tripped out massed Hormogaunts against non-Marines (which are ironically great against Tyranids). Fast Attack options are generally poor, unless terrain is heavy. If you need spam troops, however, Gargoyles are a good way to go, being fast, and blocking Line of Sight enough to offer large units a cover save in many situations. Heavy Support options suffer from odd vulnerabilities, most noteworthy being a Space Wolf psychic shooting attack that outright kills anything that fails an initiative check (making Carnifexs/Old One Eye liabilities against Space Wolves), but to include vulnerability to high initiative instant death attacks (i.e. Blood Angel Mephiston). Shadow in the Warp needs to be on top of enemy psychers as much as possible, and killing these units should be a priority unless they're far enough afield to be ignored.

There are a few general gameplay points worth raising.

- Opposing forces should never start more than 24" away from front line to front line (drives me crazy when battle reports screw this up). Most armies have transports of some kind to close distance, but Tyranids either Deep Strike, or walk. Even at 24", there will be two rounds of shooting before assault. If you're starting corner to corner, there had better be something compelling in the middle to draw your opponent towards you.
- If some units are faster than others, don't send them ahead / Deep Strike and split them off of the main army. If you want Lictors to harass scouts or a Mawloc to eat a stranded Heavy Weapon team, that's acceptable, but you need the bulk of your surviving army to hit the enemy front simultaneously, no matter how they arrive.
- There is very little gain in taking massed T3 or T4 units when you could have multi-wound T6 units instead, even if your opponent is stressing Heavy Weapon teams. Multi-wound units maintain 100% of their fighting power until their last wound's lost, and T6 is more durable against most enemy attack types.

Rocket Launchers are a major problem for the current Tyranids, and there's no easy answer. (Worse than Lascannons, because they have the same effect against everything but Tervigons, but are much cheaper). Melta and plasma weapons present the same problem at close range, but in lower concentration. Lower Toughness units can absorb heavy shots easily, but get shredded by lighter fire and can't achieve much when they hit enemy lines. Tyranid Warriors are amazing against special characters and melee squads, but Str 8+ anything instant kills them. There are a few steps you can take as counter-measures.

- Hive Guard. 150 points buys a squad of (essentially) 6 rocket launchers with shorter range but indirect fire. AP4, so don't waste on Marines, but good against light vehicles, non-Marine (or Necron) armies, and, ironically, excellent against other Tyranids.
- Venomthropes offer cover saves, one of your few counters to rockets.
- The Doom of Malan'Tai is devastating if it can close to range.

A Typical 1,500 Point Tyrannid Army I Might Field

475 - The Swarmlord, 3 Tyrant Guard w. Lash Whips
150 - 3 Hive Guard (brood)
55 - Venomthrope
140 - The Doom of Malan'Tai, Mycetic Spore w. Cluster Spines
170 - 3 Warriors w. paired boneswords, Mycetic Spore w. Cluster Spines
170 - 3 Warriors w. paired boneswords, Mycetic Spore w. Cluster Spines
170 - Mawloc
170 - Mawloc

Against a mechanized force, swap the Warriors for two minimal squads of Ripper Swarms (cheapest mandatory troop choices), and swap the Mawlocs for 3 Trygons or 2 Carnifexs and Old One Eye and Doom for more Hive Guard. If the mechanized force has Space Wolf psychers, forget the Carnifexs. If the mechanized force has Blood Angel Mephiston, then I'm sorry - you're simply screwed (unless you can tag him with the Swarmlord, so keep it center).

Venomthrope needs to be positioned to give HQ squad cover (directly behind the Swarmlord or nearby sparse cover works). The Swarmlord should survive Round 1 shooting given cover saves (1-3 dead Guards, depending on shootiness of enemies) and run on its own turn, hopefully into cover. Hive Guard will likely remain unmolested - advance under terrain, fully hidden if possible to make full use of indirect fire.

Round 2 is very dangerous if the enemy goes first. Second shooting round will cause another 3-6 wounds to the HQ unit, depending on shootiness, potentially killing the Swarmlord. If Swarmlord does survive, next Tyranid round will see 2/3 reserve units arrive due to Swarmlord ability. Deep Strikers arrive. Doom needs to land in the middle of as many enemy fleshy units as possible, as it can shoot once and its special ability will go off twice before enemies even get a chance to shoot it. Doom's shooting attack is AP1, and its special ability ignores regular armor and cover saves (it's not a shooting attack). Place Mycetic Spores between Warriors and enemy heavy weapons as possible. Mawlocs will want to come up under enemy squads as possibly, but stay close enough to assault vehicles / heavy weapons next round. Swarmlord should assault if possible.

[crazyzombie]

While agree on most of your points I feel your not entiraly correct. My biggest gripe with your explanation is your troop choice review. Other than rippers which are completly useless thanks to their swarm staus and their eat themselves rule, I feel all Tyranid troops are useful. Tervigon are incredible in objective base games due to their MC staus and their ablitly to spawn little dudes. Genestealers are great for their abllity to get in to the weaker points of the opposing army. Gaunts and hormagaunts can easly overwhelm in army if used correctly. Also While I do think their ablitty is good Venathropes are just to fragile for my tastes espically agnist those pesky missle launchers. Mawloc vs Trygon is a good show of prefrence. Finally your mech counter army has no scoring units so it at best hope for a draw or wipeout in objective based games. Other than these things a agree with just about everything you said.

[Vaktathi]

Against a mechanized force, swap the Warriors for two minimal squads of Ripper Swarms (cheapest mandatory troop choices) Well, to begin with, you've already only got two very small scoring units, and Rippers would leave you without any scoring units at all as Swarms can't hold objectives.

[Judge]

Tervigons are HQ - not troops. I haven't played with them much, so I couldn't really comment effectively beyond noticing the Initiative 1 danger of Space Wolf psychers. If you look at the Venomthrope models, you'll see they can effectively hide behind a Tyrant model, only real concern being blast templates.

As for the others, 50 points of Guardsmen will kill 37.5 points of Termigaunts before they can assault (one round regular fire, one round rapid fire). They'll kill 45 points of Hormagaunts the same way. They'd kill 47 points of Genestealers. Given low cost, and overall utility in cheap squads that still hold firepower, there's not much reason to not take 60+ regular Guardsmen just for bullet shields. You can expect similar cost performance for shooting small bugs from regular Tac marines. If you're playing in a forest with plentiful cover saves, the numbers would change, but I'm not fond of the idea of losing 75% to 94% of my troops before they hit the enemy lines - usually need a little more to be viable.

Quite right on the scoring units, though. I play a lot of annihilation, and I'm not entirely used to enemies being alive beyond 5 rounds. You can contest with the big bugs, but it wouldn't hurt to throw in two minimal squads of Gaunts if needed.

[Fizyx]

Tervigons are HQ - not troops. I haven't played with them much, so I couldn't really comment effectively beyond noticing the Initiative 1 danger of Space Wolf psychers. If you look at the Venomthrope models, you'll see they can effectively hide behind a Tyrant model, only real concern being blast templates.



A Tervigon can be taken as a troop choice for each unit of Termagants you bring. Which means 100 points worth of Termagants allows you to field two Tervigons as scoring units.

Mawlocs are cool and all, but an outflanking Tervigon is even better. Catalyst can give FNP to any unit within 12", and is well worth the points.

[crazyzombie]

Genestealers are mainly used for outflaking and backline tank attacks with rending. Gaunts are really their for Tervigons and scoring purposes. Hormagaunts are used for their speed and cheapness.