Armored shield formation

[Hendrik Booraem VI]

A while back, I purchased the "Start Collecting..." Imperial Guard set. For $85 US you get a Leman Russ, a cadian squad, a cadian heavy weapons team, and a commissar. Great deal, love it. The formation is pretty cool, too.

But...

for a long time, Battlescribe did not have the formation listed under Imperial Guard. So I would create the formation as an Allied Detachment, with a Lord Commissar, a Veterans Squad, and a Leman Russ. Does that fulfill the requirements of the formation? It says the formation includes:

1 Officio Prefectus Commissar
1 Infantry Squad
1 Leman Russ

It's clear that the Leman Russ can be any variant, which is cool. But can the infantry squad be veterans, or do they have to be normal infantry? Can the commissar be a Lord Commissar, or does he have to be the 1 wound commissar attached to a normal infantry squad? Could you make this formation with a Leman Russ, a Veterans squad, and a commissar attached to the Veterans?

I only ask because I'm curious. No one in my gaming group frankly cares at all how I make the formation. It's a good formation, but not game-breaking, and even when I load out the veterans with plasma and grenade launchers, it doesn't make that much difference.

So what does everyone else think?

[Charistoph]

A while back, I purchased the "Start Collecting..." Imperial Guard set. For $85 US you get a Leman Russ, a cadian squad, a cadian heavy weapons team, and a commissar. Great deal, love it. The formation is pretty cool, too.

But...

for a long time, Battlescribe did not have the formation listed under Imperial Guard. So I would create the formation as an Allied Detachment, with a Lord Commissar, a Veterans Squad, and a Leman Russ. Does that fulfill the requirements of the formation? It says the formation includes:

1 Officio Prefectus Commissar
1 Infantry Squad
1 Leman Russ

It's clear that the Leman Russ can be any variant, which is cool. But can the infantry squad be veterans, or do they have to be normal infantry? Can the commissar be a Lord Commissar, or does he have to be the 1 wound commissar attached to a normal infantry squad? Could you make this formation with a Leman Russ, a Veterans squad, and a commissar attached to the Veterans?

I only ask because I'm curious. No one in my gaming group frankly cares at all how I make the formation. It's a good formation, but not game-breaking, and even when I load out the veterans with plasma and grenade launchers, it doesn't make that much difference.

So what does everyone else think?

The Infantry Squad is not a Veterans Squad. The Infantry Squad is one of the units which make up the Infantry Platoon.

I am not familiar with the Officio Prefectus Commissar, but since the Lord is not mentioned, I would not use the actual Lord profile. If it was the Tempestus Commissar, it could upgrade to a Lord, but the AM Commissar does not have that option. Unless one of the campaign books that was recently released has him, of course.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Lord Commissars and Commissars are different entries with different options and stats, etc.

[Reldane]

The Infantry Squad is not a Veterans Squad. The Infantry Squad is one of the units which make up the Infantry Platoon.

There is and never has been a Veteran unit. it is common for the infantry squad kit to be used for Veterans, however it is lacking in the special weapons you would generally want to be equipping Vets with.

equally the Leman rus battle tank kit (inc) might not come with the parts needed for the Demolisher, Punisher and Executioner as they are part of the leman rus demolisher kit.

however all that aside: if you have the rules from the start collecting set, you can run them as that, equally they can easily be an allied detachment as you describe without any bending of the rules.

[CoffeeGrunt]

There is and never has been a Veteran unit. it is common for the infantry squad kit to be used for Veterans, however it is lacking in the special weapons you would generally want to be equipping Vets with.

Veterans are a separate unit entry in a separate slot. Therefore, there is a Veteran unit, they just don't have dedicated models.

[Charistoph]

There is and never has been a Veteran unit. it is common for the infantry squad kit to be used for Veterans, however it is lacking in the special weapons you would generally want to be equipping Vets with.
Model-wise, correct. Army List Entries, however, are a different story. You CAN use those models to be Veterans, yes, and use them all for an AD, BUT, they would not be Veterans in this Formation.

[Hendrik Booraem VI]

Huh. I thought "infantry" was a descriptor since it isn't capitalized, not a specific unit. Especially since you can't actually field a single Infantry Squad. Since you can field a single Veteran squad, and they are classified as "infantry" that seemed to fit the bill, although the Officio Prefectus Commissar is capitalized, so clearly GW has a specific model in mind for that requirement.

I guess house rules will be called for if I want to keep doing things my way.

[Charistoph]

Huh. I thought "infantry" was a descriptor since it isn't capitalized, not a specific unit. Especially since you can't actually field a single Infantry Squad. Since you can field a single Veteran squad, and they are classified as "infantry" that seemed to fit the bill, although the Officio Prefectus Commissar is capitalized, so clearly GW has a specific model in mind for that requirement.

I guess house rules will be called for if I want to keep doing things my way.

Where does it state you cannot actually field a single Infantry Squad?

P.S. Does it not have it's own Army List Entry? Does it state anywhere that it may only be taken as part of an Infantry Platoon?

After numerous discussions on this, I can tell you that there is nothing written, neither in legend nor script, that states that any of the Squads that make up an Infantry Platoon cannot be taken independently.

[Hendrik Booraem VI]

Hmm, that's an interesting take on things. Granted I do not have the current version of the Imperial Guard Codex (the one called Astra Militarum), but I do have the 5th or so edition (paperback) codex. It says that


An Infantry Platoon (note: Infantry and Platoon are both capitalized) consists of a Command Squad... and from 2 to 5 Infantry squads.

Each Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the Force Organization chart...

As such, I always interpreted that to mean that, no, you may not field a single Infantry squad. In fact, there is no mention of any squad that can be fielded by itself other than Veterans and Armored Fist squads. Since those are both of the "infantry" type, I figured that the formation was intended to give the player a fairly high-quality unit with Veterans combined with the commissar and the tank.

[CoffeeGrunt]

A lot of Formations allow you to field parts of a Platoon. For example, there's one this two squads of Bullgryns and a Platoon Command Squad, and another which is just a craptonne of Infantry Squads.

You're right that when building a list normally, you need to build the Platoon as-per the Platoon structure, though said structure is a little different in the more recent Codex. In Formations, however, you may simply field the specific units mentioned.

[Charistoph]

Hmm, that's an interesting take on things. Granted I do not have the current version of the Imperial Guard Codex (the one called Astra Militarum), but I do have the 5th or so edition (paperback) codex. It says that


An Infantry Platoon (note: Infantry and Platoon are both capitalized) consists of a Command Squad... and from 2 to 5 Infantry squads.

Each Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the Force Organization chart...

As such, I always interpreted that to mean that, no, you may not field a single Infantry squad. In fact, there is no mention of any squad that can be fielded by itself other than Veterans and Armored Fist squads. Since those are both of the "infantry" type, I figured that the formation was intended to give the player a fairly high-quality unit with Veterans combined with the commissar and the tank.

It is a little bit different in the new book, and a lot different in the epub book. The Platoon itself is set up the same, however each Squad has an Army List Entry, and aside from a slightly encompassing border, provides no link to them being ONLY available via an Infantry Platoon.

This is a little bit different from the 5th Edition codex in which the Platoon and its squads were held in a huge completely encompassing black field.


You're right that when building a list normally, you need to build the Platoon as-per the Platoon structure, though said structure is a little different in the more recent Codex. In Formations, however, you may simply field the specific units mentioned.

If you are building a Platoon, this is correct. However, nothing requires these Squads to ONLY be purchased via Platoon. Search as you might in the codex, you will find nothing on this. Remember, when something "may" be done does not mean it "must" be done or "only done" that way.

[CoffeeGrunt]

If you are building a Platoon, this is correct. However, nothing requires these Squads to ONLY be purchased via Platoon. Search as you might in the codex, you will find nothing on this. Remember, when something "may" be done does not mean it "must" be done or "only done" that way.

You do, you can only take these units, in the Codex, as part of a Platoon, and said Platoon has a certain structure. If these units are referenced in a Formation, then they may be taken without the requisite other units that a Platoon demands.

[Charistoph]

You do, you can only take these units, in the Codex, as part of a Platoon, and said Platoon has a certain structure. If these units are referenced in a Formation, then they may be taken without the requisite other units that a Platoon demands.

And where does it state that these units may only be taken in an Infantry Platoon?

If I remember correctly, the word "only" is never mentioned in this entire section in regards to Army List Entries. These Army List Entries are only stated as "may" be part of an Infantry Platoon. The Infantry Platoon organizational rules do not state that any of these entries may only be taken in this manner, just they may be taken as part of a Platoon. "May" is not an indicator of "only this way".

[CoffeeGrunt]

I'd reference my Codex if it wasn't buried in the attic with the rest of my 40K. AFAIK, it was always you may take 1 PCS, 2-5 IS, then like, up to six SWS and HWS. I haven't played in six months, though, but I played the Guard Codex since it dropped, and I've never seen someone say you don't have to use the Platoon structure up 'til now. Not in a single Tactica, advice article or army list from anyone.

[Charistoph]

I'd reference my Codex if it wasn't buried in the attic with the rest of my 40K. AFAIK, it was always you may take 1 PCS, 2-5 IS, then like, up to six SWS and HWS. I haven't played in six months, though, but I played the Guard Codex since it dropped, and I've never seen someone say you don't have to use the Platoon structure up 'til now. Not in a single Tactica, advice article or army list from anyone.

It's a question that has cropped up now and then, usually with the Conscript Squad. Realistically, outside of a Formation, only the Conscript Squad is of any use alone, since the rest are just too small to be useful on their own and you cannot use Combined Squad for the Infantry Squads.

But again, permission to be included in something is not a limitation to ONLY be taken in that something, especially when it is presented in the same method as other options of the same. The Squads Army List Entries are set up the same as the Ratling and Veteran Squads, with the exception of the note of allowing its use in the Infantry Platoon.

Which also adds another point. If it can only be taken as part of an Infantry Platoon, why make an ALE note that it may be taken as part of the Infantry Platoon?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Okay, dug my Codex out last night, and it stipulates that you must, in bold no less, you must take 1 Platoon Command Squad, and at least 2 Infantry Squads. It also states you make take 1 PCS, 2-5 IS, 0-5 HWS, 0-3 SWS and 0-1 Conscripts.

The Platoon is structured in the same way as Servitors are for Techpriests, in that you can only take the Servitors if you take Techpriests, because the box is greyed out.

[Katharon]

We should all remember that Formations are outside the normal rules regarding the FoC. If the composition of a formation is different from what's written in a codex, then that's just how it is. No use arguing about it.

[Charistoph]

Okay, dug my Codex out last night, and it stipulates that you must, in bold no less, you must take 1 Platoon Command Squad, and at least 2 Infantry Squads. It also states you make take 1 PCS, 2-5 IS, 0-5 HWS, 0-3 SWS and 0-1 Conscripts.

The Platoon is structured in the same way as Servitors are for Techpriests, in that you can only take the Servitors if you take Techpriests, because the box is greyed out.

Quote it properly. This is only for when creating an Infantry Platoon. Just as much as Warriors and Immortals are required for a Reclamation Legion, doesn't mean I have to take both Warriors and Immortals when creating a Necron Combined Arms Detachment.

A requirement or option for one Choice does not necessarily translate down the pipe. Do I have to take Terminators in order to field a Land Raider? May I only take Taurox when fielding Stormtroopers?

So, this is only a requirement for the Infantry Platoon, not the Squads that make up the Infantry Platoon.

[Hendrik Booraem VI]

We should all remember that Formations are outside the normal rules regarding the FoC. If the composition of a formation is different from what's written in a codex, then that's just how it is. No use arguing about it.

You're absolutely right, and I want to correct myself. Earlier I stated that the Formation lists an "infantry squad" and felt that the lower case indicated a type of unit, instead of a specific unit. Having looked at the card again more closely, I was completely wrong, and it is in fact an "Infantry Squad," which is unmistakable.

EDIT: However, it being an "Infantry Squad" does make me a sad panda, because I REALLY liked using a Veteran squad of Grenadiers with 3 plasma guns in this formation. :D

[CoffeeGrunt]

Quote it properly. This is only for when creating an Infantry Platoon. Just as much as Warriors and Immortals are required for a Reclamation Legion, doesn't mean I have to take both Warriors and Immortals when creating a Necron Combined Arms Detachment.

A requirement or option for one Choice does not necessarily translate down the pipe. Do I have to take Terminators in order to field a Land Raider? May I only take Taurox when fielding Stormtroopers?

So, this is only a requirement for the Infantry Platoon, not the Squads that make up the Infantry Platoon.

But you were saying you could take Infantry Squads as a Troops choice earlier? I already said in my first reply that when using a Formation, it just takes the specified squad, then you started commenting how that was wrong.

To simplify it, formations can take the specified unit, and just that unit. No others necessary. In the Guard Codex, when building a standard CAD, you can only take units in the Platoon if you adhere to the Platoon structure.



You're right that when building a list normally, you need to build the Platoon as-per the Platoon structure, though said structure is a little different in the more recent Codex. In Formations, however, you may simply field the specific units mentioned.
If you are building a Platoon, this is correct. However, nothing requires these Squads to ONLY be purchased via Platoon. Search as you might in the codex, you will find nothing on this. Remember, when something "may" be done does not mean it "must" be done or "only done" that way.

You basically repeated what I said, but with awkward wording to make it sound like you were countering my point, which is mostly what you said minus a few errors on your part.

[Charistoph]

But you were saying you could take Infantry Squads as a Troops choice earlier? I already said in my first reply that when using a Formation, it just takes the specified squad, then you started commenting how that was wrong.

That IS what I am saying. Heavy Weapons Squad, Infantry Squad, Conscript Squad, etc, CAN be taken as an individual Troops Choice. They have their own individual Army List Entry. There is nothing preventing it.

There are requirements for creating an Infantry Platoon unit which has requirements and limits, but those requirements and limits are only if you are planning on creating an Infantry Platoon. So, just because they are required for an Infantry Platoon, does not make the Infantry Platoon the only way they can be purchased.

If you take an Infantry Squad as a Troops Choice, you loose out on all the benefits of taking an Infantry Platoon, such as Combined Squad (limited to Squads of the same Choice) and numerous units per Choice, but it is still an option.


You basically repeated what I said, but with awkward wording to make it sound like you were countering my point, which is mostly what you said minus a few errors on your part.

Not quite. It looked like you were stating the only way to gain access to an Infantry Squad in a Role Choice is via the Infantry Platoon, "You're right that when building a list normally, you need to build the Platoon as-per the Platoon structure...", implying that the Infantry Platoon is the only way units like the Infantry Squad could be taken outside of a Formation's requirements. This is not a fact and there is nothing written to support this concept.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Charistoph, do you actually have a copy of Codex: Astra Militarum?

[Charon]

Don't thinks so. Also he must be the only person on the planet playing it that way.

[Katharon]

That IS what I am saying. Heavy Weapons Squad, Infantry Squad, Conscript Squad, etc, CAN be taken as an individual Troops Choice. They have their own individual Army List Entry. There is nothing preventing it.

There are requirements for creating an Infantry Platoon unit which has requirements and limits, but those requirements and limits are only if you are planning on creating an Infantry Platoon. So, just because they are required for an Infantry Platoon, does not make the Infantry Platoon the only way they can be purchased.

If you take an Infantry Squad as a Troops Choice, you loose out on all the benefits of taking an Infantry Platoon, such as Combined Squad (limited to Squads of the same Choice) and numerous units per Choice, but it is still an option.

No. There's so much wrong with that.

You will notice, if you look on pages 89-103, that each entry in the Force Organization Listings have darker outlines surrounding them, showing visually as well as by rules what is part of single entries.

Beneath each of the entries for what is part of an Infantry Platoon it says: "Each Infantry Platoon must/may include between [#] and [#] ." (Page 94-95)

It also says: "Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troop slot on the force organization chart."


You can't pick and choose from the Infantry Platoon, such as saying you'll take two Heavy Weapon Squads and that's your Troop Slots filled -- nope. If you want anything listed under the Infantry Platoon, then you have to take the entire platoon. The only way around that, is if you're not taking a CAD, but going off-the-charts.




Not quite. It looked like you were stating the only way to gain access to an Infantry Squad in a Role Choice is via the Infantry Platoon, "[I]You're right that when building a list normally, you need to build the Platoon as-per the Platoon structure...", implying that the Infantry Platoon is the only way units like the Infantry Squad could be taken outside of a Formation's requirements. This is not a fact and there is nothing written to support this concept.

Correct, taking the Infantry Platoon is the only way to take an infantry squad outside of a Formation.

This goes back to the argument: "It doesn't say that I can't do it, so I guess I can."


Every edition of the Imperial Guard, since it was made, has always had Infantry Squads being part of an Infantry Platoon -- inseparable, until now with the advent of Formation rules. But if you're not using a formation, the only way to get the composite bits of an Infantry Platoon, is to use neither formations or FoC.

[Charistoph]

Charistoph, do you actually have a copy of Codex: Astra Militarum?

I have the epub version. And I have reviewed the hardback book for this discussion several times. Your point?


No. There's so much wrong with that.

You will notice, if you look on pages 89-103, that each entry in the Force Organization Listings have darker outlines surrounding them, showing visually as well as by rules what is part of single entries.

Beneath each of the entries for what is part of an Infantry Platoon it says: "Each Infantry Platoon must/may include between [#] and [#] ." (Page 94-95)

It also says: "Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troop slot on the force organization chart."

You can't pick and choose from the Infantry Platoon, such as saying you'll take two Heavy Weapon Squads and that's your Troop Slots filled -- nope. If you want anything listed under the Infantry Platoon, then you have to take the entire platoon. The only way around that, is if you're not taking a CAD, but going off-the-charts.

And the legend that states that outline defines this is where? Without a description of this, this is only an assumption regarding the situation.

I should also point out that outline does not exist in the epub version.

And I am not picking and choosing from the Infantry Platoon. I am picking and choosing from the Troops section Army List Entries, and that is the difference in the perspective.

And let me iterate this again, IF you choose the individual Squad as a Troops Choice, that is the only unit (aside from Dedicated Transports) which can occupy this slot. So no 1 Infantry Squad and 3 Heavy Weapon Squads in one Troops Choice, but this would take up four Troops Choices as each would be its own Choice. In order to have all these under Choice, they MUST be under the Infantry Platoon monikor, which means they follow their requirements and limitations.


Correct, taking the Infantry Platoon is the only way to take an infantry squad outside of a Formation.

This goes back to the argument: [I]"It doesn't say that I can't do it, so I guess I can."
Every edition of the Imperial Guard, since it was made, has always had Infantry Squads being part of an Infantry Platoon -- inseparable, until now with the advent of Formation rules. But if you're not using a formation, the only way to get the composite bits of an Infantry Platoon, is to use neither formations or FoC.

Having its own Army List Entry IS saying I can do that. I need a restriction to NOT do it.

Just because it was done one way in previous codices does not mean it will always be done that way. Should I reference Dedicated Transports? They used to be their own Role, and had no way to purchase them via Role pick alone. That changed in 6th Edition with all in the Dedicated Transport Role were moved to Fast Attack. Command Squads are now being removed from HQ slots and moved to Elite slots and not made slotless with the purchase of individual HQ Characters. Crisis Suit Weapons could only be taken in pairs as Twin-linked Weapons, now this is not limited.

So, "it's always been done that way" isn't a good way to approach it without sufficient evidence that it is still that way.


Don't thinks so. Also he must be the only person on the planet playing it that way.

Do you have evidence of this?

[Charon]

Do you have evidence of this?

No army builder let you do this, no tournament let you do this, not a single IG player I have ever heard of does this.

According to this I can also pick 2 chimaera as mandatory Standard slots as they have their own unit entries adn dedicated transport just means that I can purchase them together with certain units where they dont occupy a slot.
Neither the codex nor the core rules disallow this, so I can do it. Also the rules do not disallow me removing your models from the table for no reason.

[Charistoph]

No army builder let you do this, no tournament let you do this, not a single IG player I have ever heard of does this.

Army builders are notorious for not being 100% accurate. Tournaments are chock full of House Rules, and have you actually checked and asked them?

No single IG player would do it (aside from the Conscript Squad) because outside of games like Kill Team and 40K in 40 Minutes it is 100% counter-productive (as I pointed out before). 10 VERY killable models as a Troops Choice is a waste. No access to Combined Squads is a waste. Fewer orders available is a waste.

The whole point of the Infantry Platoon is to provide a single Troops Choice with the resilience we see in other armies. Instead of just bulking it with pure numbers like Tyranids and Orks, you buy them in job lots via Squads. For a single Choice, no army can offer as many models as the Infantry Platoon, and that is before Dedicated Transports are presented.

I should also point out that I do not play IG. I may in the future, but my hobby funds are insufficient to the task at this time, and I still have way to many Necrons to build and paint and Marines to get rid of first.

In addition, how do you know what I have in my library? That is what you are accusing me of in the earlier response after all.


According to this I can also pick 2 chimaera as mandatory Standard slots as they have their own unit entries adn dedicated transport just means that I can purchase them together with certain units where they dont occupy a slot.
Neither the codex nor the core rules disallow this, so I can do it. Also the rules do not disallow me removing your models from the table for no reason.
Sure, if your detachment has slots for Dedicated Transports, why not? But I haven't seen any, and that has been the reason why Dedicated Transport Role units were not available for individual purchase.

If the codex does not allow this, please reference the rules where it states that any Squad of an Infantry Platoon may NOT be taken outside of the Infantry Platoon. All I have ever gotten on this is the equivalent of, "because". Note, the list of requirements for the Infantry Platoon is not a restriction against them being taken in another manner.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I've hung around Guard forums for years, frequented a few 40K forums and hang out on a lot of Facebook groups for 40K, and Charistoph is the first person who thinks the Platoon options are able to be taken outside of the Platoon that I've ever come across.

He also has the unfortunate trait of being unable to admit he's wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence.

[Haighus]

To be fair, in the ePub version, he is correct- there is no distinction between the Platoon components and any other entry in the list- for all intents and purposes they are individual entries that can be collated into a platoon. However, the paper copy does group all the entries into a single box, implying heavily that they are a single choice that is treated like one army list entry within that Cdex.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Googling up the Epub, I can see you're right in that regard, actually. The Epub version is wholly different to the actual Dead Trees version. For one it's laid out like crap, and for two there's the lack of the box showing that the Platoon is a single entity.

[Haighus]

Yeah, the ePub version is pretty terrible, I would take the hard copy as canon over the ePub.

[Charistoph]

He also has the unfortunate trait of being unable to admit he's wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Hardly. In this case, no one has been able to bring credible written evidence to counter my position. All I have gotten is the equivalent of "because". That is hardly "overwhelming evidence".

You say a box without legend is proof, but without a legend it means nothing.

You say they are included in the Platoon list, but that does not mean they cannot be taken otherwise if they do fulfill the standard measure.

Address these concerns before you start spouting off "overwhelming evidence".


Googling up the Epub, I can see you're right in that regard, actually. The Epub version is wholly different to the actual Dead Trees version. For one it's laid out like crap, and for two there's the lack of the box showing that the Platoon is a single entity.

Can you point out where the box is defined? And I should point out that the "box" isn't as all encompassing as it was in the 5th Edition version. That does reduce its credibility as an all-encompassing feature.


Yeah, the ePub version is pretty terrible, I would take the hard copy as canon over the ePub.

Terrible or not, it is as official as the dead tree version.

Just because you do not like the connotations, does not mean it isn't legal. Not to say there is much in the way of connotations, taking any Platoon Squad on its own (aside from the Conscript Squad) is remarkably stupid, inefficient, and wasteful.

Interestingly enough as a side note, the Getting Started Formation available to Skitaari/Mechanicus has two different paper versions. They include one version of the two Infantry unit that can be built out of the sprue. Which means you can be facing two different versions of the same Formation. Talk about the validity of a dead tree version...

[CoffeeGrunt]

I honestly don't care what you believe, Charistoph, but again, you're the only person who thinks that's how it works, and you know I can't post "written evidence" because 40K forums get tetchy about taking pictures of Codices.

It doesn't affect me at all what you choose to believe, Charistoph. I don't have the time nor the inclination to work past your stubborn refusal to admit that you're wrong.

[grimmas]

This is the box they're talking about

1806918070

As opposed to individual unit entries

18071

Guard infantry platoons have been around since they were first introduced in Rogue Trader they're not a new concept or anything

[CoffeeGrunt]

It's identical formatting to things like Techmarine Servitors, the Tempestus Platoon, or other such things. Guard basically had Formations before Formations were a thing. We just didn't get shiny bonuses for it.

- - - Updated - - -

E.g., Tau 6E Codex has Bodyguards in the same format, and they had a specific stipulation that they may only be taken if Farsight, Shadowsun, or a Shas'O Commander were taken. You couldn't just take them as a HQ choice on their own due to the prerequisite for taking them.

[Haighus]

Thanks for the pics Grimmas, that box shows how the entries are part of the same unit option. It is no different to how someone cannot just take a Sergeant on their own, because they are part of a larger unit.

[Katharon]

Dude, everyone has shown you all the evidence. You are the only - ONLY - person who interprets the Codex (EPuB or hard copy) this way. You can even e-mail the guys at GW (which I am doing, just so I can get you additional, truly not required evidence). They'll say the same thing we've been saying.

If you're going Unbound then you can take what you want. If you're taking Formations, you take what's in the Formation composition. If you're taking a CAD-FoC, then you take the whole Infantry Platoon to get Infantry Squads.

[Path Walker]

Essentially, Imperial Guard Infantry Platoons are a type of Formation, you take specific squads as the Units required and it grants you special rules. That's how I see it. Those squads are still available for other Formations, the Infantry Platoon isn't the only way they can be used.

[Charistoph]

I honestly don't care what you believe, Charistoph, but again, you're the only person who thinks that's how it works, and you know I can't post "written evidence" because 40K forums get tetchy about taking pictures of Codices.

It doesn't affect me at all what you choose to believe, Charistoph. I don't have the time nor the inclination to work past your stubborn refusal to admit that you're wrong.

If you don't care, don't post. You post, so you obviously care. If you care, post actual written evidence. You are presenting no evidence and you are basically just personally attacking. All you are saying is, "I'm right, you're wrong, and I can't prove it, so nyeh".

Pictures are not needed for written evidence. A quote and where to find it in the codex is all that is needed.


This is the box they're talking about

...

Guard infantry platoons have been around since they were first introduced in Rogue Trader they're not a new concept or anything

I am aware of the box (and have stated as such). Where is the legend for that box which I have mentioned several times? Especially since the epub has no such box?


It's identical formatting to things like Techmarine Servitors, the Tempestus Platoon, or other such things. Guard basically had Formations before Formations were a thing. We just didn't get shiny bonuses for it.

No, it is not the same for Techmarine Servitors. Techmarine Servitors are wholly encased in the datasheet, not a separate unit purchased, just extra models added to the unit's model list. Even the previous Codex Marine version had a conditional "for each" which the Infantry Platoon nor its squads carry .

Yes, it is the same for the Tempestus Platoon. Your point?

Formations are detachments, the Infantry Platoon is a Choice. But again, this comparison fails as Formations are the not the only way to take units. You can still take these units outside of those Formations based on their Role.


E.g., Tau 6E Codex has Bodyguards in the same format, and they had a specific stipulation that they may only be taken if Farsight, Shadowsun, or a Shas'O Commander were taken. You couldn't just take them as a HQ choice on their own due to the prerequisite for taking them.

Wording is a little different in this case. "For each Commander in your army (including Commander Farsight and Commander Shadowsun) , you may include one XVS Crisis Bodyguard Team. This unit does not take up a Force Organisation slot." This is a conditional statement. Where is the conditionals associated with the Squads and Infantry Platoon?


Thanks for the pics Grimmas, that box shows how the entries are part of the same unit option. It is no different to how someone cannot just take a Sergeant on their own, because they are part of a larger unit.

An assumption without a legend to define it. Where is the description of this box?


Dude, everyone has shown you all the evidence. You are the only - ONLY - person who interprets the Codex (EPuB or hard copy) this way. You can even e-mail the guys at GW (which I am doing, just so I can get you additional, truly not required evidence). They'll say the same thing we've been saying.

Yeah, the "evidence" they have presented relies on assumptions or limits based on options. In other words, reliance on a box which is not defined, reliance on requirements of another setup "just like a formation".

Real actual evidence would provide the written words which can be associated with the restrictions. Words like, "may only", "for each", etc. No one has presented that. All they have stated is the Platoon's definition and "WHAT'S IN THE BOX?!"


Essentially, Imperial Guard Infantry Platoons are a type of Formation, you take specific squads as the Units required and it grants you special rules. That's how I see it. Those squads are still available for other Formations, the Infantry Platoon isn't the only way they can be used.

Not really. Formations are detachments, Platoons are a Choice. In many ways they are, because they combine several units in to a type of group, but even that is in no ways a limit to the individual Squads not being able to be taken alone.

Warriors, Immortals, and Tomb Blades are required for Reclamation Legions. Am I required to take all 3 for a Combined Arms Detachment?

Tactical Marine Squads, Assault Marine Squads, and Devastator Squads are required for the Demi-Great Company. Am I required to take all 3 for a Combined Arms Detachment?

The answer to both of these questions is no. I can take a Marine CAD with only Scouts as Troops, Land Speeders as Fast Attack, and Predators as Heavy Support. I can take only Immortals and Wraiths in a Necron CAD if I so choose.

So this concept is irrelevant.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Charistoph, mate. I know you probably think you're correct, and you don't want to admit you might be wrong. However, you are the only person who thinks it works this way. This isn't a Renaissance moment where you are the singular voice of reason that casts of centuries of Platoon oppression for our beloved Infantry Squads and Heavy Weapons Teams. You are, I'm afraid to say, a bit wrong.

If I may, I'd like to point out that you have a pedantic streak about you that I've seen many times, and you're much more focused on proving yourself right rather than contributing to rules discussions in a meaningful way. This isn't the first time you've leapt down my throat over a petty interpretation of the rules.

Games Workshop rules are horribly written and horribly structured. RAW is practically meaningless. You also referenced Datasheets with regards to Techmarine Servitors, ignoring the fact that you're comparing a 7E format to a 6E format. Go look at the 6E Space Marine Codex for a proper comparison.

Why are the Ebooks a different format? I dunno, it's GW. Why isn't there a legend? I dunno, it's GW. Sun Sharks don't start the game with Pulse Bombs, Bloodletters have a high BS but no gun, and GW just throws stuff together to sell models.

Charistoph, even GW don't seem to want to pick over minutae to the same degree you do, otherwise they'd word their crap more coherently and we wouldn't have constant arguments over things like whether Multi-Trackers apply to Overwatch.

I'm just saying, you can make yourself feel right here all you want, but it's not how the Guard Codex has worked since third edition, and it's not how it works now. You can ignore the big grey box enclosing all the options as one, and say it needs a Legend. Go look in the BRB and see if you can find a page on that. I dunno, but it's a trait pretty unique to the Guard that they can take multiple units in one slot. If you can take Infantry Squads as a solo Troops choice, then why do they have Combined Squads? It doesn't make sense to apply that to the Unit and not the Platoon, as it only works within the confines of a Platoon.

[Charistoph]

Charistoph, mate. I know you probably think you're correct, and you don't want to admit you might be wrong. However, you are the only person who thinks it works this way. This isn't a Renaissance moment where you are the singular voice of reason that casts of centuries of Platoon oppression for our beloved Infantry Squads and Heavy Weapons Teams. You are, I'm afraid to say, a bit wrong.

If I am wrong, then you can prove it with the written word. Instead, all you have all done is just state the equivalent of "I'm right, you're wrong" without anything from the rulebook that involves letters that actually support your position. Your latest posts have been about addressing me, not the case in question. Start leaving me out of it and you might actually start getting some headway.

I may be the only one posting here who thinks that way, but it would be disingenuous to state that I am the only person who thinks this way. This isn't about oppression, or anything like that. This is recognizing how unit purchasing works within a codex.


If I may, I'd like to point out that you have a pedantic streak about you that I've seen many times, and you're much more focused on proving yourself right rather than contributing to rules discussions in a meaningful way. This isn't the first time you've leapt down my throat over a petty interpretation of the rules.

If that is what you think, then you really are too focused on the person posting then what they are stating. And if you think I'm leaping down your throat, again, you are personalizing what I am stating.


Games Workshop rules are horribly written and horribly structured. RAW is practically meaningless. You also referenced Datasheets with regards to Techmarine Servitors, ignoring the fact that you're comparing a 7E format to a 6E format. Go look at the 6E Space Marine Codex for a proper comparison.

Yes, they are horribly written. But starting from how they are written, and acknowledging what they say is the start of House Rules.

As for the Techmarine Servitors, you did not reference the edition, so which should I reference? In most cases, this would be the current version, which is not the 6th edition version. Properly clarify if you are not using the current version.

And even then, the 6th Edition version still has a "you may" stipulation, not "you may only" just like the Command Squad and Honor Guard Squad. No stipulation is made that it cannot be taken in the normal manner.


Why are the Ebooks a different format? I dunno, it's GW. Why isn't there a legend? I dunno, it's GW. Sun Sharks don't start the game with Pulse Bombs, Bloodletters have a high BS but no gun, and GW just throws stuff together to sell models.

And your point? The point is you don't have a case without these things, but you are telling me that they are written. If you want to state that "even though it isn't written, we still prefer it that way", I am fine with that. But telling me that these things are plain as day written is the same as pissing on my leg and calling it rain. And I do no appreciate yellow rain on my person.

But the point still stands that the ebook may still be different, but it still is as official as the dead tree version. And even then, the book itself doesn't provide sufficient context to exclude the ALEs of the individual Squads from being taken individually.


Charistoph, even GW don't seem to want to pick over minutae to the same degree you do, otherwise they'd word their crap more coherently and we wouldn't have constant arguments over things like whether Multi-Trackers apply to Overwatch.

Again, your point? You still are not addressing my case, you are still addressing your problems with me.


I'm just saying, you can make yourself feel right here all you want, but it's not how the Guard Codex has worked since third edition, and it's not how it works now. You can ignore the big grey box enclosing all the options as one, and say it needs a Legend. Go look in the BRB and see if you can find a page on that. I dunno, but it's a trait pretty unique to the Guard that they can take multiple units in one slot. If you can take Infantry Squads as a solo Troops choice, then why do they have Combined Squads? It doesn't make sense to apply that to the Unit and not the Platoon, as it only works within the confines of a Platoon.

There are many many things that do not work like they did in 3rd Edition, even in the 6th Edition books. Why do you insist on using that as your basis on how this works?

Necron Royal Courts do not work the same way in 7th Edition as they did in 5th. SM Techmarines and their Servitors have changed 3 times in almost as many editions.

SM Command Squads used to be where the IC they were purchased with could not leave them, then became a slotless second unit for the Choice, then became a unit which has zero slotless capacity whatsoever.

So, "that is how it has always worked" only applies when they are still using the same mechanic. I have informed you that the same mechanic is not in play, but you choose to reject it and then attack the person presenting it.

Multiple units per Choice is not anything unique to the Imperial Guard. Imperial Guard just ups it a level in terms of quantity. Any army that can take Dedicated Transports can take 2 units per Choice. Space Marine Squads with Combat Squads can provide up to 3. So this is not unique, nor is this establishing a case that the Squads that make up the Infantry Platoon may ONLY be taken as part of the Infantry Platoon.

As for the Combined Squad rule usefulness, there are many rules that only useful when taken in certain configurations. Combat Squad in a 7 man Tactical Squad is as useless as Combined Squad for a lone Infantry Squad. A Razorback for a 20 man Crusader Squad is equally as a Transport as is a Ghost Ark for a 20 man Necron Warrior Squad. Necron Praetorians cannot even Embark on their Dedicated Transport.

So, yes, the Combined Squad is only useful when the Infantry Squad is taken as part of a Platoon, and the Infantry Platoon is the most desirable way to take an Infantry Squad (something I have stated several times by now). BUT that has no bearing on the capacity of taking something a different way.

The most desirable way to take a Warrior Squad is in a Reclamation Legion and Decurion Detachment, however, there are times where taking them as part of a Mephrit Host or Combined Arms Detachment may be more desirable because of Objectives or because of meta attitudes.

If you think the solution to this is in the BRB, please reference it. I have asked for this several times up to this point and no one has delivered. My point about the legend is that without it, we have zero context to place that box. Without context, any rules upon it are pure House Rules.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Whatever, man. Boy you must be real fun at the table.

[Charistoph]

Whatever, man. Boy you must be real fun at the table.

Ah, still going on trying to make it personal. You are confusing being here with being at the table.

How I present a case here is not necessarily how I play the table. At the table there are numerous considerations to consider, not the least of which is time, the desire to make a fun game, and consideration of the meta. There is also the dice off which can quickly (if temporarily) resolve the issue.

Here, time isn't important and we have time to research and to reference the rules. Here, the representation of the community is not a group of people playing games against each other all the time, but a representation across the world who are more likely to not play against each other than to do so. Here, the only consistency is the written rule.

In short, I am making a case on CAN (RAW), whereas you seem to be more concerned with SHOULD (House Rules). Here, I concern myself with the CAN and let SHOULD be determined by the local meta. This is not the official board of GW, and has all the force of law as your local peewee football league (whichever football you play) does on the NFL/FIFA. This is why I try to stick to the RAW on forums where I can, and make sure people are aware of the RAW, so they can make properly informed House Rules.

So get your head on straight before making accusations.