IG and dealing with AV14

[Shadoq]

Evening all,
Been playing my Mech Guard for a while and have done pretty well with them but I feel like I am struggling in one area. Dealing with that pesky AV14 at range.

Currently in my 2k list, I have
2X Primaris Psykers(roam around in chims with GL Vets and shoot at targets)
4X Vets w/ Cara and 3X GL, Chim w/ Pintle HS
2X Vets w/Cara and 3X Melta
2X Vendettas(Bring melta guys forward)
Various heavy support.

My melta vets feel like a 1 trick pony that is extremely risky at best because if they don't blow the AV14 on the first time, they get wiped.

What do you IG players bring for heavy support that deals with AV14 well at range?
Medusa w/bastion shell? Vanq w/Pask?

[Koppenflak]

Vanks are terrible. Pask makes them even worse just because of his cost. 200 points for a one-trick tank? You're better off with the veterans.

Medusas are good, of course.

Most AV14 vehicles have weaker sides and rears, so another possibility is to consider outflanking heavy weapons... Like a Vendetta. If it's a Land Raider, it comes down to a question of economies. Melta Vets in a Chimera costs less than a Land Raider (by a hundred points...) Give them the order "Bring it Down" and I'll be VERY surprised if you don't blow it away.

You could try heavy weapons teams with Lascannons, but in my humble opinion, even with Bring it Down, Lascannons are just not really beefy enough to deal with it reliably. If a Land Raider reaches your lines with its cargo, it's done its job, and they don't usually care if they lose it.

To reliably kill it early, you really need to ride out in transports to meet it well in advance.

[BuFFo]

Pask Vanq is usually the MVP of my battles. He destroys sooooo many vehicles, regardless of AV, I take in in every list I make.

My friends have learned to fear pask, and always ask, which tank is pask in before we even begin the game lol.

[Paul]

Pask Vanq is usually the MVP of my battles. He destroys sooooo many vehicles, regardless of AV, I take in in every list I make.

My friends have learned to fear pask, and always ask, which tank is pask in before we even begin the game lol.

One Squadron of two with lascannons = 340 points. I will destroy any tank you shoot at.

[BuFFo]

One Squadron of two with lascannons = 340 points. I will destroy any tank you shoot at.

Ok?

[Commissar Lewis]

I have a lascannon team that never fails to bring stuff down.

I remember when my one friend first got a Monolith he was bragging about how tough it was.

First turn it appeared, Bring it Down, and the team wrecked it in one shot.

That's why they got a gold-plated lascannon.

[mercer]

Your problem is lack of serious anti tank. Lascannons need a 6+ to penetrate armour 14 so not great and then you only have two melta unit which as you said is a one trick pony but also the work horse of anti tank - kill it and you have little left to threaten armour.

I would bulk up on melta tbh. Also Medusas are good if they hit but only have one role. I prefer demolishers myself as can tackle vehicles well and infantry, they however need a 5+ to penetrate armour 14 but are pretty tough themselves.

[Lord Azaghul]

Your problem is lack of serious anti tank. Lascannons need a 6+ to penetrate armour 14 so not great and then you only have two melta unit which as you said is a one trick pony but also the work horse of anti tank - kill it and you have little left to threaten armour.

I would bulk up on melta tbh. Also Medusas are good if they hit but only have one role. I prefer demolishers myself as can tackle vehicles well and infantry, they however need a 5+ to penetrate armour 14 but are pretty tough themselves.

But demolishers are an ordance weapon, so you get 2d6 take the highest!

In my standard IG I generally have 1 LC hw squad, a demolisher, a bassie and assorted special weapons to all deal with av14. Remember you don't have to kill the high armour the first turn, just prevent it from firing the next round.

[RocketRollRebel]

Mmm the Vendettas should be able to do it at range or just drop off the melta vets. Its better to have them hop out and wreck a land raider and die then to have them sit in the vendetta the whole game and not do anything (like mine do half the time). As mentioned already you S10 Ordinance weps are pretty rockin and do a damn fine job at cracking those tough nuts open.

[blackarmchair]

Put the Melta Vets in Chimeras that way they can shoot from the hatch.

[mercer]

But demolishers are an ordance weapon, so you get 2d6 take the highest!

In my standard IG I generally have 1 LC hw squad, a demolisher, a bassie and assorted special weapons to all deal with av14. Remember you don't have to kill the high armour the first turn, just prevent it from firing the next round.

Yes, so you still need 5+ to penetrate, yes? You roll 2D6 at least one of those has got to be a 5 or 6 to score a penetrating hit. So my point still stands.

And lascannons don't deal with armour 14, either and no does a basilisk. Both need a 6+ to penetrate - not good!

[Lord Azaghul]

Yes, so you still need 5+ to penetrate, yes? You roll 2D6 at least one of those has got to be a 5 or 6 to score a penetrating hit. So my point still stands.

And lascannons don't deal with armour 14, either and no does a basilisk. Both need a 6+ to penetrate - not good!

All I'm saying is that needing a single 5 or 6 with 2 chances is a greatly improved odd then needing a 5 or 6 on a single d6.
Keep in mind, you don't need to kill the av 14, just stop it from shooting, so a 'glace' is just fine.

[phoenix01]

I don't know for sure as I don't play Guard, but what about a squadron of three Devil Dogs? They are fast tanks and have that melta cannon, and taking them in a squadron might improve the chance that one or more might get the chance to pop an AV14 tank.

[Lord Azaghul]

Thats not terribly cost effective though,for a squad of 3 you're looking at about 360-390 in points to kill a landraider or an IG tank. Now 2 might be a bit more a mit more reasonable. But the 'fast' slot is a very contested one in the 'dex, and people don't generally care to squadron tanks!

[Folkert0]

hell hound or bane wolf with hull multi-melta, it's a fast vehicle so it can meet the raider halfway the board and has a 24" threat bubble, after melting the tank, go and throw some templates around just for added kicks :)

you probably should take them in pairs btw...

just my $0.02

cheers,

Folkert

[fuzzbuket]

guard with a problem with AV 14

sorry but my eldar and pure grey knights cant hear you.

seriously, melta tanks, melta-vets, melta sponsons, hull mounted meltas,blobs with meltas. :o too many choices for you to kill it with


-fuzz ( try killing a monolith with eldar and youll see my pain, or CC with meltabombs for my GK)

[Judge]

AV 14 isn't overly complicated. Rather than ask for guesswork, why not figure it out for yourself?

Land Raider ~250 points.
36 LC shots on average to kill for IG. (1/2 hit, 1/6 penetrate, 1/3 kill)
8.1 Demolisher shots to kill. (2/3 hit, 1/3 penetrate, 5/9 kill)

Lascannon HWTs = 420 points to kill within 3 rounds (~33% chance / Round)
LR Demolishers = 495 points to kill within 3 rounds (~40% chance / Round)

Figure five times the odds for lesser effects from Lascannons, and just over the same odds (as to kill) from Demolishers.

On the flip side, both twin-linked Lascannon side sponsons on the Land Raider together will take ~5 rounds to kill a 14 armor tank. Two would kill 14 front armor at about the same rate as 3 Lemun Russ Demolishers. You'd think the whole thing's pretty well balanced once you factor in the twin-linked assault cannon on the Land Raider and assault capability. Until you factor in Space Tyranids.

On the flip side, a 6 man squad of generic Terminators costs ~250 points (I know there's a lot of room for variance there), and they take only ~18 IG Lascannon shots to kill, or 2.55 Demolisher shots (little more if they're spread out, but with less variance), so if you have the option (which you will sometimes), shoot them instead.

At a casual glance, I'd say the Manticore is your best bet, but factoring in the 5th edition armour buff, you might very well consider not shooting the tanks at all until softer targets disappeared.

[Lord Azaghul]

, but factoring in the 5th edition armour buff, you might very well consider not shooting the tanks at all until softer targets disappeared.

Ding, Ding Ding! We have a winner.

when i play my IG and a LR is on the table, I often ignore it for a first 2 turns. That ends up being alot of defensive points, just sitting on the table, while my entire army can unload on the rest of the MEQ army , then I bring the heavy fire power to bear against the LR!

[Melissia]

If it gets too bothersome, I just pop the LR with a meltagun.

Emperor knows that they're cheap enough in a Guard army.

[Shadoq]

All,
Thanks for the comments.
My current build list to play test this weekend includes:

Pask in a Vanq w/hull las. I love Vanq tank models and ideas. I cry a little inside that the Destroyer Tank Hunter isn't a codex option. I love that thing.

Medusa w/Bastion Breacher

Demolisher w/hull las

Plus the aforementioned 2X sqds of melta vets

Tempted to give the devil dog a try but I am not a fan of squadroning vehicles.

[RocketRollRebel]

I don't know for sure as I don't play Guard, but what about a squadron of three Devil Dogs? They are fast tanks and have that melta cannon, and taking them in a squadron might improve the chance that one or more might get the chance to pop an AV14 tank.

I'd say 2. Squadroning hellhounds is always fun. I've just never tried it with the devil dog variant.

[Polonius]

There are two kinds of land raiders:

The first (and scariest) are ones that bring a payload of nasty troops towards you. Luckily, it's coming to get you. Melta vets in a chimera, while cliched, are an amazing tool for dealing with vehicles that come close. They can shoot out of the hatch, thus protecting themselves.

The second (and wasted against IG) are fire support landraiders, which sit back and shoot. Those can be ignored if you have to, otherwise either a melta CCS in outflanking (or scouting) valkyrie or a medusa are the best tools for the job.

I nearly always field a CCS with meltas in a valkyrie. The unit runs a total of 220pts, is good against hordes with the rocket pods, can outflank, and will nearly always kill an enemy tank. 4 meltas + BS4 + Bring it down on LD9 = good times.

[Force21]

I have a lascannon team that never fails to bring stuff down.

I remember when my one friend first got a Monolith he was bragging about how tough it was.

First turn it appeared, Bring it Down, and the team wrecked it in one shot.

That's why they got a gold-plated lascannon.


lol...

that happened to me at a tournament once.

but the guy did not brag about it...it was actually his first tournament so I felt kinda bad...


but then again he had two of em....& well the other one did its job well...

since then I always run two LC squads.

[mercer]

All I'm saying is that needing a single 5 or 6 with 2 chances is a greatly improved odd then needing a 5 or 6 on a single d6.
Keep in mind, you don't need to kill the av 14, just stop it from shooting, so a 'glace' is just fine.

Aye, that was my point also, anyway moving on..

Personally I settle for crew stunned, wrecked or destroyed results as the tank is not moving or shooting for the next turn or the entire game. Weapon destroyed can be a bonus depending on how many weapons the tank has. Immobilised can be useful if a assault unit is nearby.

[weeble1000]

My only comment is that putting a melta-wielding unit in a Vendetta makes the vehicle's combat role fuzzy. To be effective, especially if you're trying to hop out an pop AV 14, meltaguns need to be close to the target which means the vehicle needs to be relatively close and thus usually has to move more than 6 inches. Once you move your Vendetta more than 6 inches you're only firing one TL Lascannon. Plus, Lascannons have the advantage of long range and moving close to the enemy diminishes that advantage.

On the flip side, a Valk with pods needs to be close to bring it's weapons into play and it can move 12 and fire everything. That said, I haven't seen consistent performance from a squad of melta vets in a valk chassis vehicle, at least not when I play. They seem to be a good distraction unit and sometimes they kill what they shoot at, but I'm going to work up a list with their points applied elsewhere and see how the army plays.

[ashnaile]

Aye, that was my point also, anyway moving on..

Personally I settle for crew stunned, wrecked or destroyed results as the tank is not moving or shooting for the next turn or the entire game. Weapon destroyed can be a bonus depending on how many weapons the tank has. Immobilised can be useful if a assault unit is nearby.


Except that stunned and shaken dont stop the main armor 14 youll see? Land raiders with extra armor dont care one single bit about shaken or stunned, they can always move and always shoot the assault cannon or multi melta, then unload the termys.

Go with medusa's with bastion breacher shells, even if the hole scatters off 5+2d6 is usually good enough to do the job, and against land raiders its pretty hard to scatter the hold off.

Also why are people saying lascannons? those arent made for killing armor14 a bs4 lascannon only has like a 4.7% chance of a destroyed result against av14 ...lascannons are for 10-13, bring the melta or ready the welcome party for the terminators sure to be hanging out soon.

[DarkLink]

As a regular user of Land Raiders (at least one in every game with my Grey Knights), I can say that I pretty much ignore any long range fire, except perhaps bright lances. Every once in a while someone manages to get through, but as long as I have a rhino or terrain for a bit of cover then lascannons are of little concern to me.

Now, if you had, say, 15 lascannons, then I'd take care. But even 5 or 6 at BS 3 aren't something I worry about. And that's with a single Land Raider. If I have multiple, then I'm even less concerned.


On the other hand, a single squad with 2-3 meltas become an immediate target. If I run multiple Land Raiders, which I usually do, my first few rounds are often spend shooting transports out from under melta units, so that my Land Raiders can move about freely for the rest of the game.

[The Green Git]

Two words: "Bastion Breacher"

I run a squadron of two and can fairly reliably kill a Land Raider per turn. The Manticore and other heavy weapons in the army can put the stun or shaken results on anything else. Melta Vets do the cleanup and up close killing.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, IG have the best long-ranged solutions to Land Raider available. After them, it's Tau and 'nidz, for their str 10 guns. Unfortunately, both come on expensive platforms, so aren't nearly as common as the ridiculously cheap meltagun everyone else gets.